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Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by Loquebantur on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:37PM (#50432587)
They have maxed out the base data with the given model architecture and scale "intelligence" through inference-based RL.

Notably, in order to achieve a specific quality, the model has to "reason" for every prompt proportional to the training inference.

This is arguably the case of diminishing returns being reached, as answer token prices saturate the willingness of customers to pay.

They've run into a wall.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by sebzim4500 on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:41PM (#50432648)
There's a whole frontier of cost vs performance and this model pushes it out in a bunch of places, so its not just a matter of making a different tradeoff as you make it sound.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by Loquebantur on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:56PM (#50432829)
What you're looking at there is the cost/performance in inference. The "frontier".

An economically successful step would be to improve training cost/frontier advance.

They essentially failed at that, assuming they kept their training costs for the model step at least constant.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by rsalus on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:25PM (#50433156)
isn't that what Opus is for? this is the "strongest" model, not the most economical
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by breakwaterlabs on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:02PM (#50433582)
If you believe in things like Artificial Analysis, GPT-6.1-Sol is by far more economical than Opus 5.5, even before the alleged (observed) nerf last week: https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=gpt-6-astra-high%2Cgpt...

Notable takeaways:

- Sol-low - cost-competitive with Haiku, while outperforming Sonnet on medium

- Sol-High - Competes with Astra medium and beats Opus 5.5-medium, at 20% the cost

- Sol-Max - Beats Opus 5.5 high, Astra high, and competes with Opus xhigh, at cheaper than Sonnet and a fraction of the Opus cost

And when you look at time spent, With the exception of Sol-max you get better results in less time for less money.

It's rather hard to look at opus-- or any of anthropic's models-- and say "economical".

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by lillecarl on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:07PM (#50433653)
Their subscription plans are quite economical, API pricing is __absolutely insane__ on the other hand.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by sroussey on Monday November 09, 2026 @08:20PM (#50434852)
The two will get closer to converging over time.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by rsalus on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:39PM (#50433959)
rather pedantic distinction when we are talking about model classifications... opus is Anthropic's offering for cost/performance
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by felixgallo on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:44PM (#50434013)
On the other hand, there are plenty of ethical reasons not to support Sam Altman/Peter Thiel/Larry Ellison in their particular world vision, which for many rules out use of OpenAI.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Monday November 09, 2026 @08:13PM (#50434800)
There is some truth here, but for people on subscriptions the Claude ones currently provide much better value.

And for most people here who care about coding performance Anthropic has a substantial lead[1] - although sadly they don't have coding benchmarks separately for Opus 5.5 Medium which I think it the sweet spot.

The cost tab really should have something like "how many tasks can you do in a particular subscription tier" for many people. I realize this changes often though.

[1] https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=gpt-6-astra-high%2Cgpt...

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by pseudosavant on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:36PM (#50435404)
Very interested if you have any citations for how Claude subscriptions give "much better value". I've recently been researching this with mixed analysis.

It seems like most analysis is basically "how many tokens do you get with a subscription and how much would those tokens cost at API rates". Looking at it that way, you do get more dollars of API equivalent usage for your subscription.

But Anthropic's API pricing is a lot higher than OpenAI's (Opus 5.5 is 2x of GPT-6.1 Sol). The number of tokens consumed per completed task is also far higher than GPT-6. So when you look at the number of tasks you can complete within a subscription, OpenAI looks like a much better value.

That is before you consider that OpenAI subscriptions (other than the cheapest one) don't have 5-hour usage limits, and also generally give you multiple free resets per month.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:52PM (#50435497)
The Semi-analysis analysis piece is quite good: https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/anthropic-subscription...

There was some chatter on Twitter, Reddit and here when an earlier version of this came out where people normalized it by completed AA or Epoch task and Claude models still came out well ahead.

In practice OpenAI subscriptions are more competitive than they appear because OpenAI does a lot more subscription resets. But that's hard to account for!

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by pseudosavant on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:06PM (#50435577)
That is the exact "your subscription buys this much in tokens at API pricing" kind of analysis that I mentioned. Which is one way to look at it, but it ignores the 2x pricing difference, and the token efficiency difference.

Per task, Opus 5.5 costs ~6x of Sol 6.1. Then you add on the lack of a 5-hour limit, no limit on which models (like Fable's 50% of usage limit) you can use, very frequent resets, and that OpenAI doubled the usage limits after that analysis was performed.

Even though the Claude subscription is equivalent to 5x the $ value of API priced tokens, it seems like Codex is the better value for getting things done.

https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=claude-fable-5-2-high%...

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @06:16AM (#50438721)
> and that OpenAI doubled the usage limits

I don't think so? I think OpenAI had planned to half the limits but decided not to go ahead with it, but this analysis was done at the limits we have now. I could be wrong about this though?

> Opus 5.5 costs ~6x of Sol 6.1.

My point in part is that you can't compare like this.

Opus 5.5 is a more capable coding model than Sol 6.1. AA benchmarks show Opus 5.5 max effort scoring 62 vs Sol 6.1 max effort on 54: https://artificialanalysis.ai/agents/coding-agents?agents=de...

Unfortunately AA doesn't report non-Max efforts for their coding benchmarks.

But no one runs them on max. For Opus the advice is to usually run it on medium effort, and I've found that advice to be good.

For me to get equivalent results on Sol I need to run it on high effort, and I need to use Astra as an orchestrator (whereas Opus medium does great as an orchestrator too).

That combination pushes the blended token pricing up a lot.

I can't give you hard numbers on this, but at the moment my Codex credits get used up a lot quicker than my Claude credits on similar tasks in the same codebase.

I'm glad we have two great models competing, but at the moment I'd say Opus has the edge.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by pseudosavant on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @02:46PM (#50445348)
Regarding the OpenAI doubling limits, it happened about two weeks ago: https://windowsreport.com/openai-doubles-chatgpt-pro-usage-l....

I think it is a narrow view to only consider the AA coding agent index as the only metric, especially with the models running at max.

For the link you shared, Opus used 3.7x as many tokens, and 2.5x the time to get its score. In the real-world building things with these tools, that kind of increase in time and cost (or subscription usage) matters, at least to me.

When comparing at more reasonable medium or high levels of reasoning, the gap between Opus and Sol narrows considerably. Opus being about 2 higher than Sol at the same reasoning level. However, Sol 6.1 xhigh matches Opus 5.5 high on scores (52), but while still being slightly faster and costing 78% less ($0.76 versus $3.46).

https://artificialanalysis.ai/models?models=claude-opus-5-5-...

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @06:06PM (#50447601)
> When comparing at more reasonable medium or high levels of reasoning, the gap between Opus and Sol narrows considerably. Opus being about 2 higher than Sol at the same reasoning level. However, Sol 6.1 xhigh matches Opus 5.5 high on scores (52), but while still being slightly faster and costing 78% less ($0.76 versus $3.46).

> https://artificialanalysis.ai/models?models=claude-opus-5-5-...

Yes, but my point is that these are non-coding benchmarks at these non-max levels.

On coding at non-max Opus really does seem noticeably better, and my subscription seems to go longer. Look at the other comments in this thread - every single one says the same thing.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by bitexploder on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:11PM (#50435607)
Claude dollars just seem to go further on the subscription. Opus just gets more done at good quality. I have both subscriptions @ $200 and use them a lot
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by jpardoe on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @01:16AM (#50436714)
Exactly the same experience on both subscriptions. Claude is noticeably better value. If things were frozen in time and I could only choose one it would be Claude, no question.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by jpardoe on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @01:13AM (#50436696)
All I know is recently I’ve been switching in and out of Codex and Claude with the same workflow and my Codex usage gets drained much quicker. Just my experience.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by breakwaterlabs on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:55PM (#50435872)
I ask Opus and Sol to dig me a ditch, and they build an international airport.

The difference is the Opus API cost is $1200, and Sol charges $50, and finished in about 6 hours less.

Is the Opus airport better? Maybe, possibly, but I'm a lot less annoyed with Sol because I can correct course a lot quicker.

Plus Sol's prose is substantially less obnoxious.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by lukeschlather on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:56PM (#50433510)
The thing is max reasoning is most effective at things which are least interesting (the ones where the answers can be validated by a computer.) I've found for a lot of tasks like image recognition, low reasoning can even be better quality than max.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by XenophileJKO on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:13PM (#50433706)
This model is on the cost performance frontier (Pareto line) from medium -> max.

If you leave xhigh and max off.. you still get better performance than Opus 5.5 max

Opus 5.5 Max - score 59 - cost per task - $10.04

Fable 5.2 High - score 62 - cost per task - $9.08

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Monday November 09, 2026 @08:06PM (#50434750)
> An economically successful step would be to improve training cost/frontier advance.

> They essentially failed at that, assuming they kept their training costs for the model step at least constant.

What? No!

This is completely wrong!

This proves that inference scaling continues to work beyond the previous frontier.

Claiming that higher inference costs shows failure is an odd thing to think. We've seen this optimization cycle over and over, most recently with Opus 5 -> Opus 5.5

Opus 5 was slow and expensive. Opus 5.5 came out and was better, fast and much cheaper for them to run.

There is nothing to indicate the same can't happen here.

Anthropic probably has multiple options open to them with this model, and they'll probably explore all of them:

- Use collected Fable 5.2 traces to improve reasoning economy for Fable 5.3

- Use Fable 5.2 as a teacher model for Opus 5.6

- Add additional fields RL data to expand Fable capabilities for Fable 5.4

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by lnenad on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:41PM (#50432650)
That would be my layman's assumption as well. A theory is they're just releasing this as a stepping stone towards something bigger before the IPO. Either way it's the same way chinese models get higher scores on benchmarks. Drop enough of wait actuallys and you'll be top the charts, but time per task and tokens per task go up by a mile (as is the case with this release).
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by mrandish on Monday November 09, 2026 @07:46PM (#50434616)
It's kind of like back when Moore's Law / Dennard Scaling began hitting the scaling/thermal wall, bringing the semiconductor "Golden Era" to an end. They started over-volting and over-clocking the chips to within an inch of their lives to extract more compute when the "Magic Scaling Unicorn" stopped being magic. Now days instead of a new node sometimes being as much as twice the performance at half the cost, most new nodes are ~10-15% more gates OR ~10-15% more speed for ~20% higher cost per gate or clock.

Same is happening in LLMs. Sadly, the Golden Era is over.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by mirekrusin on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:55PM (#50432807)
There are tasks that people will easily pay hundreds or thousands of dollars per pop.

And maybe that's how all of it is going to evolve in the future – so you pay per solution, not tokens?

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by Loquebantur on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:01PM (#50432875)
Diminishing returns would catch you there as well.

Perhaps, it's a bit like being a super smart person in contemporary society: at some point, being smarter doesn't really reliably translate into a better life.

When you learn from available human data, those text books max out at some point. You cannot learn what isn't there.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by suddenlybananas on Monday November 09, 2026 @04:58PM (#50432852)
This would be great for my sanity.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by f3408fh on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:07PM (#50433650)
Mine too. I'd be happy if LLM progress stayed at it's current level. Good enough to make make 10x more productive, but not good enough to replace me.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by mattnewton on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:07PM (#50432947)
Maybe a dumb question but once you have a model that spends a lot of tokens for high performance why can’t you distill it into a model that thinks less? Sure it wouldn’t generalize well to new tasks but plenty of tasks are important and recurrent enough to justify this
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by buckle8017 on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:10PM (#50432983)
The reasoning/thinking is basically trying many many different branches.

To do that you need a larger model to have many many branches to try.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by jaggirs on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:36PM (#50433265)
They do this already. Have you noticed the stronger model tends to get released first and the weaker models soon after?
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by mattnewton on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:22PM (#50433808)
Right, I guess I mean why does the poster think more test time scaling means we’ve hit a “wall” versus just a different way to scale?
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by calebkaiser on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:39PM (#50433296)
There's a lot of research along this particular line, if you're interested!

This is a dataset basically constructed by taking a bunch of DeepSeek R1 trajectories and filtering out the incredibly long rambling ones: https://huggingface.co/datasets/open-thoughts/OpenThoughts-1...

There's also a bunch of RL research around strategies to coax the student model towards more concise trajectories.

In general, a lot of people in industry are finding cost savings these days by tuning a smaller model over longer agent trajectories (not exactly the same as distilling the reasoning traces, since those aren't exposed by many frontier labs anymore) collected from their production agents. Typically works best when you have a pretty workflow-y agent whose tasks all share a similar shape.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by motbus3 on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:38PM (#50433955)
Caleb is right. Also it seems the results are not straightforward.

Let say you have a model that score 100 in a benchmark and you distill it into a model half the size. It has very few guarantees that it will score close to 100 again.

But I assume one of the hard problems is to know that the model might not perform well enough outside of the distillation part.

There is also another caveat that models do display some level of sub language control, by this I mean that innocuous text might contain information relevant for the own agent or for other agent with it shares tasks. (Like when your partner says there is nothing wrong) Because distillation uses very few resources, we don't know exactly what gets send forward or not.

As Caleb said, many companies found that they can tune small open weight agents over procedural known tasks because that's easy to inspect and check and because there is little space dor ai-loitering, it tends to be less problematic. The key difference, at least in my understanding, is that you are not concerned with the weights or reducing data. You are basically tuning agents existing weights to emulate another agent answer.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by rowanG077 on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:21PM (#50433101)
How do you explain Opus 5.5 or GPT 6.1? I could maybe agree if this is a general trend. But one supermodel existing that is really expensive does not signal diminishing returns.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by reactordev on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:53PM (#50433472)
[delayed]
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by reilly3000 on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:00PM (#50433572)
There is so much left to do with probabilistic computing architectures that haven’t been explored or attempted yet. These are such early days IMO.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by reactordev on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:54PM (#50434124)
[delayed]
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by motbus3 on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:29PM (#50433864)
I don't think the problem is computing. The method has always had a fatal flaw. Even if they double computing and time, they will not have enough content and even if they did, probably they would not increase proportionally.

They are doing IPO now because it might become apparent that they reached a limit in the next year

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by whimsicalism on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:59PM (#50433562)
The people want LLMs to run into a wall and HN dutifully supplies the comments, going on 4 years now
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by utternerd on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:06PM (#50433640)
I don't necessarily think this is true though. The hype cycle, and the false promises are what most people here dislike it seems, along with the snake oil salesmen telling us "this time it really is different!"

And I am simply ignoring the ridiculous comments around local model usage from certain CEOs.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by tiahura on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:12PM (#50433693)
R’s in strawberry
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by jwpapi on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:04PM (#50433621)
But if the intelligence has been calculated once it can then be utilized for the future. It might still make sense for cases in which you are looking for breakthroughs. I would assume the intelligence is gonna trickle down.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by biggestriverman on Monday November 09, 2026 @06:30PM (#50433884)
They have not run into a wall. The frontier labs distill their strongest models into their cheaper, faster models.

Having these highly rated models reflects (potentially) the frontier of what they are capable of producing. Essentially its and advertisement and shows directionally where the smaller faster model's capabilities are headed.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by mrandish on Monday November 09, 2026 @07:31PM (#50434483)
> They have not run into a wall.

The "wall" is in increasing intelligence per cost. No one is saying the absolute intelligence won't continue increasing, it's that the rate of intelligence increase per cost is falling from super-linear growth rates to linear at the same time the companies are backing out the investor-funded subsidies they were using to buy adoption and user growth numbers. You're correct that there is a 'trickle down' effect to lower tier models but OAI/Ant are clearly using this to segment customers by willingness to pay and their IPOs depend on extracting the maximum amount possible from each segment.

That's why the prices of frontier models have been skyrocketing, though they are using every trick imaginable to mask this being clear and obvious. They take with price increases, token deflation, shifting plan levels and limits but muddy things more by giving back some (but always eventually less) with resets, subs, etc.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by nl on Monday November 09, 2026 @08:31PM (#50434936)
> No one is saying the absolute intelligence won't continue increasing,

They absolutely have said that.

> That's why the prices of frontier models have been skyrocketing,

They haven't.

"The cost of achieving a given level of AI performance has fallen about 47% per quarter since 2023, or 13× per year."

"The cost of a given level of performance often falls fastest right after that level is first achieved, that is, when it is state of the art (SOTA). We see this pattern on three of our five main benchmarks of AI capability. Averaging across all five, cost falls 66% per quarter (75× per year) for performance that has just debuted as SOTA."

https://epoch.ai/publications/the-plunging-price-of-thought#...

On a per-token basis Fable 5.2 is cheaper than 5.1:

5.2: $8 per million input tokens and $40 per million output tokens.

5.1: $10 per million input tokens and $50 per million output tokens.

Compared to older (and much less capable) frontier models it is also cheaper. For example GPT-4 was $30 per million input tokens and $60 per million output tokens

https://developers.openai.com/api/docs/models/gpt-4

Be very careful comparing the Artificial Analysis "cost per task" scores. Fable 5.2 is expensive there because it is doing tasks the other models fail at.

Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by biggestriverman on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:22PM (#50435308)
Last I checked Fable's prices have fallen not risen. Opus 5.5 is as intelligent as Fable 5. I think Anthropic is actually trying to make as good of a model as possible and the advances that their expensive models are getting distilled into the cheaper faster models quickly.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by ford on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:19PM (#50435288)
I think a lot of people don't realize that the labs really care about AGI. They care about token spend, efficiency, cost, etc. only as far as it gets them customers that will fund AGI
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by Art9681 on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:07PM (#50435203)
The "wall" and "moat" argument has been parroted over and over and over. And every single time it is incorrect in hindsight. You may or may not be right. But you are probably not.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by catigula on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:22PM (#50435307)
Literal insane claim.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by jpardoe on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @01:17AM (#50436719)
I really hope so.
Re:November 2026 Claude Fable 5.2 Scores 65 on Artificial An... by echelon on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @01:21AM (#50436741)
I don't want humanity to hit a wall. I want proprietary gatekeepers to.