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Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by padjo on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @03:33AM (#45589191)
Gotta love the casual sexism
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by sunshine-o on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @03:59AM (#45589375)
Here is what is sexist: every time one of those foundations announce a "non coding" woman as their new leader, if you read between the lines, it is because they need to be more "ESG" and she will hopefully seduce her way into raising some money.

But the problem is none of those foundations can raise enough money and hire enough people to compete in that space. It is not the right model.

Free Software is about vision, leadership and a lot of talented people freely contributing. I saw Stallman once "preaching" live at an event and telling us about the code he wrote, it was quite the experience. He is a weird guy but 1 hour of him speaking would have more impact than any MBA or Bachelor of Art type being paid to fundraise and coordinate.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by saagarjha on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:05AM (#45589416)
It sounds like Stallman had quite the impact on you. Is it really so foreign to you that putting someone in a leadership position that can broaden that reach to people who are unlike you might be worth doing?
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by guerrilla on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:15AM (#45589477)
Their point is obviously that they can't if they aren't qualified.

I don't know if that's actually true but it's clear what they're arguing here anyway.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by qwertox on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:25AM (#45589553)
But how does this relate to gender? Even if you assume only two genders, why would being a feminine person play any role in their qualifications? That's what the comment was about.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by zo1 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:44AM (#45589696)
I would imagine because women are under-represented in this field, so naturally we have to weight gender over qualifications. It's just the way things are. I wish it wasn't and qualifications/ability played a 100% part in these decisions.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by darkwater on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:02AM (#45589800)
> I would imagine because women are under-represented in this field,

So the ones in the field have passed a higher barrier and pressure and are more qualified than the p80 male.

This could be another spin on the topic ;)

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by cbeach on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:54AM (#45591021)
You're assuming the Left stayed out of technology, and we still run a meritocracy.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by saagarjha on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:26AM (#45589556)
Stallman has historically done pretty poorly at getting people involved in the free software movement. Before someone goes "surely you are talking about women and other underrepresented groups" no I am not talking about them, although that is also important of course. I'm talking about the people who are not hackers, the people who are stuck using Microsoft Office at their job but want to know about better options, the people who want their computer to not suddenly update and sell them ads but couldn't name a single programming language. Stallman has really dropped the ball for those people. I used to think he was quirky and principled too and I value his contributions but when I zoom out I've stopped finding that he's able to campaign for change effectively. Maybe he was qualified in 1980 but in a world where everyone has a phone in their pocket that is not only proprietary but that they can only really interact with as an appliance, perhaps he is not the most qualified person anymore.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by dandellion on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:45AM (#45590078)
Even if Stallman had only given given us Emacs and we ignored everything else he has ever done, he'd still have given us more and brought more people involved in free software than this new crop of MBA/communications degree CEOs that has taken over ever will.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by oblio on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @06:04AM (#45590198)
We need more Torvalds and Van Rossums and Kawaguchis than Stallmans.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @06:22AM (#45590317)
Not really. Without Stallman, there would be no Torvalds.

After Stallman launched the GNU project, the emergence of GNU licensed kernel for x86 architecture was inevitable. It just happened that Linux became that kernel. Had it not, the GNU project folks led by rms would have inevitably made their own.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by hylaride on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @08:03AM (#45591105)
> After Stallman launched the GNU project, the emergence of GNU licensed kernel for x86 architecture was inevitable. It just happened that Linux became that kernel. Had it not, the GNU project folks led by rms would have inevitably made their own.

I'm not sure this is guaranteed. GNU and the FSF have absolutely provided an enormous amount to the concepts and implementation of OS software. No doubt about it. Without it Linux would not exist, but it doesn't mean that'd have resulted in a widely used GNU alternative.

BUT, GNU/FSF also has a long history of losing focus on coding and spending a lot of time on political and philosophical arguments. I think it more likely BSD may have headed to where linux ended up than GNU. Linux was successful because they moved forwards and arguments were settled relatively quickly (for better and worse), whereas Hurd got stuck in development hell as people argued over how pure the microkernel architecture should be, pushing away people who just wanted things to work - including volunteers. During the crucial period over the 1990s, open source software needed to get things done (kind of like a startup). There are videos out there of people speaking at conferences about their work on Linux, and RMS being in the audience interjecting that it's "GNU/Linux" every time Linux was uttered. Who wants to work in an environment like that?

Even today, people are looking at more and more alternatives to important GNU software because of stagnation or other technical merits. GCC has lately seen alternatives become more common, as an example.

This also ignores the hostility the FSF historically has/had towards the commercial industry. Torvalds largely accepted patches from anybody if the code worked as intended.

Maybe something could have come out, but my gut tells me that people would have gravitated to something else that worked.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by oblio on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @10:22AM (#45593025)
It was so inevitable that GNU Hurd should have been renamed GNU Albatross in the 1990s.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by ruszki on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:02AM (#45589794)
There are studies about this. A lot. Many of them garbage, because their reference points were garbage (like 2008), or flat out lied, but it's quite clear that even if it matters on C-level jobs, it's miniscule. It was studied a lot because of Norway, and the following countries in Europe. Either it was pure sexism to have a distorted sex distribution, or C-level jobs don't really matter for companies outlook. I don't think that it's the latter. Btw, these studies also show that "experience", and "qualification" were distorted for no good reason.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by guerrilla on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @01:00PM (#45595487)
I don't know what you're trying to say but we weren't talking about companies or countries. We were talking about leadership of a political movement. It's a revolutionary ideology, not a business.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by ruszki on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @03:03PM (#45597003)
Yes, but that shows that there is no real lack of qualifications by sex, just lack of opportunity. And that’s the best data which you can get today.

Do you have any data which shows that the type of leadership must be so different which affects this? Because if not, then you can infer only one thing from that data, and not what you did.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by guerrilla on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @03:19PM (#45597141)
I think you're lost in the weeds. If you don't know anything about software, you're not qualified to talk about software. The end.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by ruszki on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @03:43PM (#45597433)
Nobody said otherwise. Even sexists say the same thing because they can hide behind “sex blindness”, just like with racists and color blindness.

Are you saying that women with that qualification have the same opportunities as men without external intervention? Then why did you even bring up sex, and why I need to show you how to express it?

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by sunshine-o on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:20AM (#45589511)
I only saw him once and I immediately understood how he could lead such a revolution.

It is not about being "like him", he was just some fat old man with a big beard and I remember thinking he probably smells pretty bad. What was broad and inspiring was his vision and leadership as an human.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by dariosalvi78 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:38AM (#45589648)
I am also very fond of Stallman, but we need to recognise that he had as many lovers as he had haters. He may have pushed many outside of the free software movement in fact because of his character.

I still think that the FSF needs a strong character with a clear vision, man or woman, but maybe with less orthodoxy than RMS.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by saagarjha on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:36AM (#45589638)
Again, I appreciate that you found him inspiring. The point is that not everyone does.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by j45 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:34AM (#45589621)
Everyone can develop their own personal leadership too instead of looking to others and judging leadership.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by guerrilla on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:27AM (#45590807)
If that were true, the world would be a lot better than it is in general.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by j45 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @10:33PM (#45600826)
It is true for the people who choose to lead themselves.

It doesn’t depend on external expression or validation.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by rgrs on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:25AM (#45589549)
How would you quantify reach? The PR or number of projects delivered?
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by saagarjha on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:32AM (#45589606)
I value effectiveness in manifesting change in the world. This takes many forms. I think one of the most depressing and myopic views that hackers have is that code rules everything, when in fact social movements live and die upon their accessibility and impact. If you think that laboring in a cave and writing the next Free text editor is going to bring about free software, the reality is that three proprietary editors have already eaten its lunch, the latter two of which are VC backed and soon to require cloud registration, and the last which was written using AI trained on your code that you very carefully structured to be unusable to build non-free software on top of.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by wolvesechoes on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:33AM (#45589999)
You are right, it is not about writing a code. That's the common problem when discussing free software among geeks.

Of course it is about political action, putting pressure, being loud etc.

But now look at the current state of affairs and tell me - how successful were all those orgs, with more professional management, PR people and proper gender representation? We don't need another man or lady in suit, giving generic word-salad speeches, full of currently fashionable words. Those on the other side of the fence have easily can have much more of those.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by LaGrange on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:15AM (#45589884)
If by impact you mean “turn off people from the movement” then sure. I happen to know multiple people who either met or even hosted him, and not a single one of them was impressed. Stallman was a horrible promoter.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by cbeach on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:35AM (#45590861)
> every time one of those foundations announce a "non coding" woman as their new leader, if you read between the lines, it is because they need to be more "ESG"

That might explain why the Scala Center (which oversees the Scala language) has a young political sciences grad as its executive director. She has zero commercial or academic experience in Scala.

And this is how she behaves at conferences:

https://x.com/jdegoes/status/1633888998434193411

Leftwing political activism, cancel culture and #metoo-style witchhunts (example: https://pretty.direct/statement )

This is what the Scala "community" has become. It's tragic, given how good the language is.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by ethbr1 on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:51AM (#45590992)
Causation does not imply correlation.

That there are non-technical leaders who lose the thread does not mean that leaders lose the thread because they're non-technical.

There are plenty of technical leaders who have also gone off on personal tangents and vendettas!

Maybe a more accurate appraisal would be 'some people suck at a job, and it's unfortunately difficult to dislodge a bad leader anywhere'.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by soulofmischief on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:52AM (#45591007)
Women are more than seductresses. This is an apalling line of reasoning. There are a lot of issues to hate in our industry, and you lose all credibility by attempting to tie these issues to women.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @05:33AM (#45590000)
Show me where the sexism is please.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by oblio on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @06:08AM (#45590223)
LOL.

Compare and contrast this:

> Say what you want about the Stalleman type he was very inspiring and had real leadership. So a lot of hackers followed him in his crazy vision and that gave us a lot.

With this:

> It is very feminine and obviously doesn't work that well.

It's a super sexist comment. A comment born in the 60s, or I guess in our geek land, still in 2025.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @06:14AM (#45590262)
>It's a super sexist comment.

Is it?

To answer this, just reverse the genders in the statement and see if it's still sexist.

"It's very masculine and obviously doesn't work that well"

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by padjo on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @08:08AM (#45591158)
Yeah I think it’s fair to say that in many circumstances people would use masculine as a pejorative and not get called out for being sexist. There’s some historic power imbalance stuff at play there, but it’s still sexist.

If you have problems with some type of behaviour it’s much better to say exactly what they are rather than appealing to some platonic notion of sex characteristics, which is both offensive and poorly communicates your position.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by zdware on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @06:57AM (#45590580)
Yes - why are these adjectives even coming up at all? There are alternatives that would probably make your point in a succinct manner without being sexist.
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by RIMR on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:21AM (#45590762)
Yeah, that's still sexist. Was that your point, because it kinda feels like you're presenting this as a gotcha or something...
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by sharpshadow on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @11:24AM (#45594007)
You are as sexist as Zuckerberg[0] looking for more masculinity in leadership.

0. https://fortune.com/2025/01/13/zuckerberg-says-companies-nee...

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @01:52PM (#45596164)
You're a genuine Tylenol baby if that's the conclusion you arrived
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by sharpshadow on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @04:40PM (#45598128)
Feminine and masculine can be gender independent traits, the comment was sarcastic.

Criticizing a woman for failure because of femininity falls nonetheless more into sexism than actual criticism of actions taken.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by RIMR on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @07:19AM (#45590754)
Buddy, you used the word "feminine" as a pejorative. That demonstrates a profound disrespect for women in general.

You really can't pick up on your own casual sexism? That's just evidence that this kind of anti-woman "femininity=weakness" language comes naturally to you.

Given this response, I would retract the accusation that you made a sexist statement, and instead conclude that you are a sexist person.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by FirmwareBurner on Wednesday October 15, 2025 @09:11AM (#45591912)
What meds are you on if you don't mind me asking?
Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by dang on Thursday October 16, 2025 @04:43PM (#45610451)
Personal attacks will get you banned here, and you did it more than once. No more of this, please, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: you've unfortunately been posting tons of flamewar comments to HN and clearly using the site primarily for this, so I've banned the account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re:FSF Announces Librephone Project by dang on Thursday October 16, 2025 @04:44PM (#45610453)
Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html