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Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by golergka on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:53PM (#43552125)
Looking from the outside, it seems that people in the US are always using credit cards as opposed to debit cards, and I don't really see a good reason for that. I have owned credit card in the past, and I could get one easily now, but I don't see any reason to: I have money in the bank, I want to spend it, and I don't need to lend anything.

Why and how does _credit_ becomes the first and default way of payment?

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by skadamou on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:56PM (#43552155)
If you are able to pay off your credit card balance each month, you can earn rewards points on every purchase which is money back in your pocket. Even if it seems like a tiny amount, in the long run, you are leaving money on the table using a debit card as opposed to a credit card for most of your purchases.

The big caveat being you MUST pay the balance off each month to avoid paying interest otherwise you are losing money by using a credit card.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by ivm on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @08:18PM (#43552601)
At least in Chile, it’s common to have 3 months of interest-free payments offered by the banks, and some stores offer up to 24 months for cards issued by certain banks.

It really helps with one-off costly purchases, like a new device or some stuff for home/garden. I never miss card payments and keep my finances organized, avoiding purchases I can’t pay off monthly.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by Enginerrrd on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:54PM (#43552139)
Because credit cards offer better protections from fraud making the consumer not liable. Debit transactions don't have that and they are also linked straight to your account so theres also additional risk where if someone steals the money using your debit information it's just gone.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by tossandthrow on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:56PM (#43552157)
In Europe they offer the same amount of protection.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by devilbunny on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:01PM (#43552188)
Most cards in the US have a Visa or MasterCard logo, and transactions made that way have essentially the same legal protections as credit card transactions, but in the meantime, your money is not in your bank account. So other transactions may fail.

With credit cards, it's the bank's money that's missing, not yours.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by zhivota on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:03PM (#43552207)
Even with the same nominal protection, with credit I don't lose anything. With debit the money is missing from my account until the case is resolved.

I know I prefer to only put the bank's money at risk, not my own.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by spwa4 on Wednesday April 02, 2025 @04:53AM (#43554815)
Wouldn't a credit card charge YOU interest on the disputed amount until the case is resolved?
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by BugsJustFindMe on Wednesday April 02, 2025 @08:03AM (#43555768)
Nope. Also they resolve very quickly and fraud cases generally resolve in favor of the consumer anyway.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by enlyth on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:05PM (#43552222)
I'm in Europe and still use my Amex for everything I can.

It has no membership fee, I get 0.5% cashback which is free money, and one time a merchant failed to deliver an order and they gave me back my money within like 10 minutes of me raising a dispute

If I had used my debit card with my normal bank it would probably take a week to resolve, and I'd be the one out of pocket in the meantime

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by anigbrowl on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:00PM (#43552179)
Debit transactions don't have that

Why not?

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by andrewmcwatters on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:02PM (#43552196)
This isn’t true yet people repeat it anyway.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by rawgabbit on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @08:02PM (#43552506)
From https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-card-...

” For debit card transactions, the Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFTA) applies. While these laws offer some similar protections, knowing the differences is key to understanding why it's safer to use one type of plastic than the other... According to the EFTA, your potential liability for fraudulent debit card transactions is virtually unlimited. You have up to 60 days to report a lost or stolen card under the EFTA. After that, you simply lose whatever money was taken, even funds siphoned from linked accounts.”

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:03PM (#43552209)
But the people on r/personalfinance told me to never ever buy anything on a debit card because I can't file chargebacks there! /s
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by zhivota on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:07PM (#43552241)
You can but while you wait your money is gone, you can't use it. With a credit card it's the bank's money that is missing in the case of fraud or charge back.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:10PM (#43552266)
Debit issuers are obliged to provisionally credit any disputed amount within at most 10 business days after the cardholder reporting a problem.

That's of course still worse than not being out the money on a credit card, but it's not the dealbreaker many make it out to be, and could easily be amended by regulators if there was any interest in doing anything about the drag on the economy that are inflated card payment fees.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by scarface_74 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @09:07PM (#43552820)
10 days without my money compared to no days without my money?

You mean the same regulators who just rescinded the cap on overdrafts?

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @09:15PM (#43552859)
Definitely worse, as I already acknowledged, but not as bad as people often make it sound.

And yes, regulations alone aren't enough, they also need to be enforced. That goes for both credit (Reg Z) and debit (Reg E), though.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by 486sx33 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:55PM (#43552148)
Exactly.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by dexwiz on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:05PM (#43552228)
Couple of reasons

- Point schemes. Every card has some sort of points system that encourages use. The best programs are often tied to specific products like airlines. Sometimes there are multipliers on specific categories of use like gas or travel. More expensive cards have better points programs.

- Protection. You pay with the bank's money, not yours. This means you have an extra buffer to protect against fraud, and the bank is more incentivized to resolve issues. On the flip side, banks can put pressure on merchants by raising/lowering their transaction rates if they are consistently bad actors.

- Card holder benefits. Often cards have extra things like car insurance for car rentals built into the card. They also give you access to a cash line of credit in emergencies.

- Builds credit. If you don't have other major debts like a mortgage or car loan, your credit score can be low, because the banks rate unknown borrowers as risky. Consistent credit card usage alone can give you a medium-high rating, so when you do need to borrow for a home, you can get a better rate. This is a bit of a racket overall, but its better than a random banker judging you based on their personal bias.

If you pay off your card in full every month, the only cost is the yearly fee, which varies by card, my current one is a mid range card for $50/year. Usually you need to spend a few hundred to thousand a year for the benefits to outweigh the cost. That said, this whole system preys upon those who don't pay every month/don't their card enough to benefit from it.

I was taught credit cards were dangerous, and stayed away from them for years. I'm glad I never racked up debt when I was younger. But as a responsible adult, they are a boon.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by 2muchcoffeeman on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:27PM (#43552364)
You have to be responsible though. If you can’t deal with your money that way, don’t get one. Even if you are responsible, don’t get the most credit you can. I have enough for monthly expenses and a bit extra for emergencies.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by bittercynic on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:42PM (#43552423)
Why not get as much as you can? The extra headroom might be handy for some unforseen expense, and in the mean time it makes your utilization ratio better.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by 2muchcoffeeman on Thursday April 03, 2025 @10:08PM (#43577624)
Maybe it’s different in the US. My bank asked me to reduce my liabilities.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by jjav on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @11:47PM (#43553483)
No, you actually want to get as much credit as you can, and never use it.

Available but unused credit helps your credit score.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by IAmBroom on Wednesday April 02, 2025 @02:02PM (#43559447)
Also, there's an addition benefit for high-credit-score credit card users: they get occasional offers for "0% interest" (with typically 3-5% upfront fees, which are in fact a fixed interest) loans, which become ordinary credit card loans (~20% interest) after 12-18 months.

Even though it isn't actually 0% interest, even 5% is an amazing credit interest rate.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by jwiz on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:55PM (#43552150)
Credit cards have better consumer protection than debit cards.

You are on the hook for like $50 max of fraudulent credit card, and like $500 of fraudulent debit. If you don't catch debit in time, you might be liable for all of it.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:22PM (#43552335)
It's $0 for both credit and debit, under Visa and Mastercard "zero liability" rules.

Even under Regulation E, it would only be $50 as long as the issuer is notified within two days of losing your card, and $0 for other types of fraud (e.g. unauthorized use of your card number online) if reported within 60 days of receiving the corresponding monthly statement.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by bombcar on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:25PM (#43552351)
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by thfuran on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:55PM (#43552146)
They offer more protections for the purchaser than a debit card with no direct additional cost as long as the bill is paid in full. They also often provide additional incentives like some percentage cash back.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by 486sx33 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:56PM (#43552151)
And 30 days no payment no interest.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by rybosworld on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:09PM (#43552264)
This blog has a great post on how credit card systems work, and I think it goes a long way to explaining how CC's became so popular in the U.S. in particular:

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/anatomy-of-credit-car...

The highlights in my own words:

- Credit cards are a powerful tool that many people do not use correctly. They enable 0% interest loans so long as you pay your balance on time. It's only when you are late on a payment that you pay any interest

- The vast majority of credit card spending is done by people in high income brackets

- Credit card issuers fight to attract those high income bracket spenders. That's because credit card issuers make money on every purchase that's made via interchange fees (effectively a toll paid by merchants). They do this via cashback reward programs.

- It's these interchange fees, not interest penalties, that issuers make most of their money

- The economics of all of this work better in the U.S., because it has more high income spenders compared to other countries

And finally, something that's less well known: the folks at the lower end of the income brackets subsidize all of this. Credit cards, and by extension, their rewards programs, only work when you have enough high income spenders that enable toll collection (interchange fees) from merchants. Merchants respond by raising their average price (subconsciously or otherwise) to compensate. Folks on the high end of the income bracket are able qualify for the lucrative rewards programs. But folks on the lower end cannot.

In effect, the wealthy pay somewhere between 1-2% less on every transaction.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:19PM (#43552313)
> Credit cards are a powerful tool that many people do not use correctly.

If everybody were "using them correctly", issuers would be bankrupt. The fact that they're not should tell you that there's at least one winner other than the never-balance-carrying cardholders.

> Credit card issuers fight to attract those high income bracket spenders.

Correct, and everybody pays for this (very expensive) fight, one way or another. The fact that some people come out ahead does not make them a good deal in the median case.

> And finally, something that's less well known: the folks at the lower end of the income brackets subsidize all of this.

I agree, but as an aside, you might be surprised to find that the author of the article you quote would disagree with you there: https://x.com/patio11/status/1902555603534295115

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by plorkyeran on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @08:02PM (#43552509)
It would be a lot less money, but issuers would make money off of credit cards even if every single person in the world paid their bill in full every month. They would distinctly not be bankrupt.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @09:13PM (#43552847)
They could probably adapt, but they'd have to really streamline their operations. I doubt there would be as many paper ads in the mail, airport lounges, bonus cashback categories etc.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lxgr on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:02PM (#43552200)
At the individual level, leaving 2% or more of cashback and an interest-free loan of at least a month on the table is just a bad economic decision.

At the aggregate level, it of course costs everyone dearly, since the cashback is ultimately just paid for by consumers anyway – minus generous issuer profits.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by crazygringo on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:04PM (#43552219)
On top of protections, rewards, etc., you're gaining the time value of money.

You shouldn't be keeping your savings in the bank, you should be keeping them in investments. When I charge something to my card, it's an average of 45 days until it gets debited from my bank account. That's 45 days that money can be in investments and profitable.

It doesn't matter much over just one or two months (and will be swamped by the direction of the market anyways), but over a lifetime it adds up.

Don't ever pay now when you can pay later, if you can invest your money during that gap.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by ryandrake on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:20PM (#43552322)
Yep, even if the credit card didn't offer any rewards or protection, I would still use them because I'm billed a nonzero number of days after the charge happens. And that's an interest free loan, where I can instead earn interest. If your credit card balance is $5000, and you only have to pay it an average of 30 days after the purchases are made, well... The 30 day T-bill rate is currently 4.38%, so putting that $5000 into the safest, most liquid investment available for 30 days will yield $18.25, which is much better than cash or a debit card where you are immediately charged.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by goodoldneon on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:55PM (#43552147)
Because I get rewards when I use it. I always pay at the end of the month so I never pay interest
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by hx8 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:02PM (#43552193)
Exactly, I have 3 cards and choose the one that offers the highest rewards for each transaction. Then pay it off at the end of the month.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by forestgreen76 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:58PM (#43552165)
Because it builds credit, and most credit cards these days have points/cash back programs, the caveat being you have to be very diligent about budgeting and ensure you pay the balance off in full every month.

The problem is, most people don't do that.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by bluGill on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:05PM (#43552230)
40% do pay off every month. Not a majority but still a large number. We don't have numbers for those who normally pay them off but once in a while miss - that might be significant.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by mjamesaustin on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:01PM (#43552187)
The real answer is that US banking laws don't protect consumers the same way they do in Europe.

So Americans are forced to use credit cards and enrich the companies offering that service, because using a debit card carries risks.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by numpad0 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:59PM (#43552173)
Historically it's explained as rapid inflation. IMO also due to being pre-Internet tech. Credit card "payments" can be completed offline and batch processed.

In this day and age? Inertia?

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by diamondlovesyou on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:11PM (#43552270)
I don't use credit cards for the credit; in fact mine are completely paid for every statement. They are used for the customer protections and other provided "free" benefits. If some scummy or outright scam-y thing is charged to my Amex, I know I will have Amex on my side. If my card is stolen, Amex will refund any fraudulent charges and overnight me a new card; I probably won't get my debit card overnighted, though they will probably refund the fraud. The other thing is credit card points, which are essentially a benefit paid for by credit card processing fees charged to businesses. Many cards also offer access to "private" airport lounges. And other benefits I'm forgetting off the top of my head.

Additionally, having high credit limits, low usage, and older accounts improves credit scores for loans/etc.

No interest is charged if there is no balance carried statement-to-statement, so why bother with silly debit pins and such.

That's how it becomes the default way of payment; it's not really "credit".

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by floatrock on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:01PM (#43552185)
> I have money in the bank

Overdraft fees hit harder than interest

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by ponector on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:58PM (#43552166)
US has both: insane credit card rates and bonus rewards (miles, cashback, etc).

In EU rewards are shit, and the only reason to keep credit card is to be able to rent a car during summer vacation.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by sys_64738 on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:30PM (#43552381)
Interesting. I never knew there were not as many deals. Some of the deals in the USA are crazy. 2% cashback all the time(!)
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:54PM (#43552134)
Because wages are insufficient. Credit fills the gap to survive. Half of bankruptcies in the US are from medical debt, for example. In 2023, approximately 36.8 million Americans, or 11.1%, lived below the poverty line. ~50% of Americans carry a balance, and the average U.S. household with credit card debt has a balance of around $6,065.

Credit cards are expensive short term financing.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/the-burden-of-medi...

https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/may/which-us-...

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by surajrmal on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:59PM (#43552171)
Many folks carry zero credit month to month and still use a credit card. You're giving away free money by not using it.
Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @06:59PM (#43552175)
You're assuming these consumers of credit card products can pay off their cards (transactors) when the data shows, broadly, that the consumer is stressed financially. Consumers are relying on credit cards because they cannot afford not to (revolvers).

US Consumer Debt Delinquency Hits Highest in Almost Five Years - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-02-13/us-consum... | https://archive.today/ivRqd - February 13, 2025

Record Share of Americans Pay Only Minimum on Credit Card Bills - https://news.bloomberglaw.com/banking-law/record-share-of-am... - Jan. 22, 2025

Philadelphia Fed: Card Balances and Delinquencies Continue Upward Trajectory; Mortgage Originations Stagnate - https://www.philadelphiafed.org/surveys-and-data/2024-q3-lar... - January 22, 2025

St Louis Fed FRED: Consumer Loans: Credit Cards and Other Revolving Plans, All Commercial Banks (CCLACBW027SBOG) - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG

(credit card balances total ~$1T outstanding as of this comment)

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by lupusreal on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:25PM (#43552348)
From what I've read (not your links), roughly about 40% of Americans with credit cards don't carry a balance month to month. That's not most, but it is many. Which is what was said:

> MANY folks carry zero credit month to month

Even if 40% is 10x too high, and I'm pretty sure it isn't, 4% of all credit card holders is still a hell of a lot of people. As far as I can tell you haven't actually contradicted the claim.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by s1artibartfast on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:13PM (#43552277)
You are still looking at a minority to define a universal trend.

Some consumers may be stressed. That doesn't explain why credit cards use has dominated across all income ranges for decades.

It seems like you are trying to shoehorn a pet issue into an unrelated question.

Edit: you still seem to be missing the question. It isn't why credit debt is so high. The question is why so many people use credit cards. What you are saying may be true, but it is answering it an entirely different question.

>People would use debit cards if they had the funds.

This is the part that simply isn't true. The rich use credit cards too. Less than half of credit card owners carry a balance from month to month.

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @07:17PM (#43552304)
Ah yes, "my pet issue." I suppose I am not the chief economist at Moody's. It must the purchase protection and the rewards, not the unsecured credit.

https://time.com/6957322/why-credit-card-debt-is-high/

> The higher cost of everything from housing to high-tops to haircuts are a major culprit. Although inflation has moderated since it peaked in June 2022, Americans—particularly lower-income families—are relying more on credit cards to cope with the sticker shock.

> “They used credit card debt to supplement their incomes to maintain their purchasing power,” says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics.

> A few years ago, low interest rates plus a host of pandemic-era programs—stimulus payments, enhanced food stamp benefits, pauses on student loan payments and eviction proceedings—made this new math work for families’ budgets. But those financial supports have been discontinued, and for borrowers who were barely treading water financially, these programs couldn’t have been eliminated at a worse time.

Credit card rates are high because they can be, if you need financing you have nowhere else to go except perhaps a payday lender or other hard money source. This is why there is recent talk of capping interest rates at 10%. People would use debit cards if they had the funds, they don't, which is also why overdraft fees were a source of billions of dollars in fees for commercial banks.

S.381 - 10 Percent Credit Card Interest Rate Cap Act - https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/381

Big banks have drastically cut overdraft fees, but customers still paid $2.2 billion last year - https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/09/jpmorgan-chase-wells-fargo-c...

Re:Why are credit card rates so high? by jjav on Tuesday April 01, 2025 @11:46PM (#43553480)
At least in the US with the regulations here, there is no good reason to ever use a debit card. Credit cards are superior in every way.

Paying by credit card gets you:

A 0% loan for 4-6 weeks. Not huge but it's free money.

Better fraud protection (similar, but better; look it up)

A firewall between fraud and your bank account (fraudulent charges never hit your bank account balance, unlike debit cards where the money is gone and you get refunded later)

Cash back or points or other benefits. Not huge but it's free money.