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Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by femto on Thursday February 20, 2025 @05:37AM (#43113176)
Is it true to say that in practise there are no laws here? If anyone in DOGE breaks the law, can't the President just issue a blanket pardon?

If the President himself breaks the law, he argues that it was in the course of his official duties [1].

[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by mapt on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:48AM (#43114060)
There is a principal in democracy that there Should Not Be strong institutions that prevent a majority of the population from harming itself with its choices. We balance that against a Supreme Court in the US, but that court is almost uniquely powerful & active in forming policy relative to its place in the rest of the world, and right now, most of it has been appointed by fascists; Ultimately the population will have its say in the long term.

Do you want an extra-democratic body who is capable of telling the population "No"?

I think such a body (which exists in some system) would obviously be nice right now, but I am a lot less convinced that it would be a net positive in general.

If we want to find our way out of this, I suspect a lot of people are going to need to feel directly harmed by this administration, and are going to need to basically erect a strong protest culture out of whole cloth. Something like 5% of the population in the streets can topple an authoritarian regime in the right circumstances, but not the 0.5% we might expect for a "large" protest.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by sul_tasto on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:27AM (#43114370)
The electoral college was intended to serve this purpose.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by ckozlowski on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:08PM (#43117301)
I really wanted to believe that it would step up to the occasion, but twice now, it didn't.

I don't say such lightly. I genuinely believe that up until very recently, all portents of doom aside, none of the prior elected presidents truly threatened the Republic. Not Bush, not Obama, none of them.

Trump has been the exception. It the electoral college had been working as intended when it was envisioned by the Founders, it would have said "Yeah, I hear you want Trump, but, no." and voted in someone who might be better suited to implement his (rough) ideas.

I'm not completely onboard with the notion of abolishing said college just yet, as I believe that the electoral system prevents a candidate from say, simply winning all of the urban areas, or exploiting some similar demographic divide that would could exist in a pure popular vote system. We're a union of states, not a single monolithic country. And while I might place my bets on a popular vote providing me the results I'd like a majority of the time, I believe broad representation that at least aids towards unity is better than an outright majority. We strive to avoid "tyranny of the majority".

I don't have any easy or simple answers as to what might fix all of this. It may not even be something our "system" can fix, but rather just a lesson we as a country have to learn. Let's hope it's not as painful as prior instances.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by heylook on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:39PM (#43122019)
> I believe that the electoral system prevents a candidate from say, simply winning all of the urban areas, or exploiting some similar demographic divide that would could exist in a pure popular vote system.

What about simply winning all of the rural areas? Cause that's literally what happened.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by mrtesthah on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:26AM (#43115016)
The purpose of the electoral college was to protect slavery.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by p_j_w on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:06PM (#43117252)
For those who tend to fall for right wing talking points:

“There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.”

James Madison

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by jzb on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:14AM (#43114872)
"Do you want an extra-democratic body who is capable of telling the population "No"?"

There's value in having speedbumps that keep 51%* of the population from shooting 100% (or 99%) of the population in the collective foot... or in this case, head. The institutions aren't anti-democratic - they were put together by democratic processes, and each speedbump is usually there for a reason. Sometimes a long-forgotten or no longer good reason, and it needs to be dismantled, also by the same type of processes that put it there. Yes, I want people who won't be easily and summarily dismissed for following the law and regulations even when they're not popular. I want regulations and guardrails that can't just be swept aside by an administration that rotates out every four to eight years. (I'm generalizing a lot here, of course...)

*Really much less than 51%, given that a large percentage of the population doesn't vote, another percentage of the population's vote is suppressed, and another significant percentage of the population is not yet old enough to vote...

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by NoMoreNicksLeft on Thursday February 20, 2025 @11:24AM (#43116646)
>There's value in having speedbumps that keep 51%* of the population from shooting 100% (or 99%) of the population in the collective foot... or in this case, head.

That metaphor breaks down here and is not really applicable. If two people are chained to each other at the ankles, they can both plausibly argue that the only way to save their own life is to take that of the other person. Whining "but I'm the good guy, I deserve to cut off his foot and let him be the one to bleed to death" is asinine.

The solution here is, of course, to not be chained to the other person irreversibly. But any time that is suggested, we hear a bunch of "We're stronger together, that's crazy talk!" And here we are. 330 million people all chained together, and now people are upset that the other team has the hatchets and is menacingly staring at their ankles.

>and another significant percentage of the population is not yet old enough to vote

Not sensible enough to vote. Don't leave that part out.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by alasarmas on Thursday February 20, 2025 @01:36PM (#43118356)
This isn't 1861, sectionalism isn't strong enough. One part of what's going on here is cities at odds with the countryside, another part is the internet, smartphones, ubiquitous connectivity, filter bubbles. People are physically present in the same locations but they are not eating the same bread and drinking the same water, metaphorically speaking. I recommend looking at this Wikipedia article for a possible best-case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Gr...
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by michaelt on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:49AM (#43115326)
In the UK, the Prime Minister has a lot less discretionary power, but much more ability to get legislation changed.

So when a political question arises like "should we have net neutrality?" the elected politicians decide and pass legislation.

That's in contrast to the US, where someone decide the executive was granted discretionary power over net neutrality in 1934, several generations before the net was invented. Then the executive decides there will, then won't, then will, then won't, then will, then won't be net neutrality.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by acdha on Thursday February 20, 2025 @02:22PM (#43118944)
> Then the executive decides there will, then won't, then will, then won't, then will, then won't be net neutrality.

It should be noted that the backdrop here is legislative dysfunction: the congress could have resolved network neutrality at any point but that bogged down for ages. Many of the questions around statutory power look like someone trying to do something under existing rules because they see a problem which isn’t going away but legislative attempts have failed.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by aredox on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:57AM (#43116244)
There is one, it is called a Constitution, and any rules where changes are only accepted by a qualified majority not of 50% but of 66% aka 2/3rds.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by cryptonector on Thursday February 20, 2025 @04:33PM (#43120514)
> There is a principal in democracy that there Should Not Be strong institutions that prevent a majority of the population from harming itself with its choices.

Wrong. Democracy means only majority rule. What you say is true of republics, which the USA is. However no republic can be perfect in this regard, because it's all just human beings. In this case the president is plenipotent within the executive branch, the Congress is in the hands of the same party, and the SCOTUS is largely on the same page, therefore all the institutions in question are not going to stop him unless he does things that are outrageous to the public, keeping in mind that the HN commentariat is a tiny portion of "the public".

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by muddi900 on Sunday February 23, 2025 @12:32AM (#43146894)
This comment is asinine. It is like saying "Tomato is a fruit". Except if we were using the definition of fruit from 1825.

Democracy as a term has been defined to include represtative Republics for at least a century. Stop being a retrograde pedant.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by throw0101d on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:03AM (#43113703)
> Is it true to say that in practise there are no laws here? If anyone in DOGE breaks the law, can't the President just issue a blanket pardon?

For federal laws, yes.

If you can find a state-level law that's been violated then he has no jurisdiction to pardeon.

Trump himself was charged at the state level twice (and already convicted once):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_election_racketeering_...

See also the civil case against him for rape:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Jean_Carroll_v._Donald_J._T...

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by roenxi on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:40AM (#43114006)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Jean_Carroll_v._Donald_J._T... is weak. The allegation is rape in 1995 or 1996 (year unclear) and a headline piece of evidence is a photo of Carrol and Trump together in 1987.

If the Wikipedia summary is to be believed, the case undermines New York more than it does Trump. The damages for such thin evidence and wild claims are staggering.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by grobbyy on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:13AM (#43114232)
My experience is that for anyone sufficiently famous and polarizing, there are widespread false allegations. It's hard work to work from primary sources and sort fact from fiction.

It's impractical to check everything, do I tend to do deep dives spot checking a small number of things.

For readers, I'd suggest the same thing here. Disregard claims on the Internet, or even court rulings, and just look at primary evidence. Pick a small number of issues.

I make this statement generically, without prejudice to the outcome here.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by JKCalhoun on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:33AM (#43115117)
> Pick a small number of issues.

I'm not sure what you mean. I generally agree with you — but I think in the case of Trump you have to disregard at least 26 [1] public allegations of rape if you want to give him a pass, blame his fame, or partisanship, or whatever.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct...

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by mikeyouse on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:34AM (#43115921)
Right.. the credulousness of these people is insane. “I can’t believe the guy who said he liked to sneak backstage at the Miss Teen USA pageant and bragged about grabbing women by the pussy would assault someone!”
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by InsideOutSanta on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:36PM (#43117703)
It's worth noting that Stormy Daniels' description of her encounter with Trump also amounts to rape. I don't think she ever used the word, but it's clearly what she describes.

Ms Daniels said she "blacked out" despite consuming no drugs or alcohol after Mr Trump prevented her from leaving the room by blocking the door. She said she woke up on the bed with her clothes off.

"I was staring at the ceiling and didn't know how I got there, I was trying to think about anything other than what was happening there," Ms Daniels testified.

Ms Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, said she did not tell Mr Trump to stop. "I didn't say anything at all," she said and that she left the hotel room quickly afterwards.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-08/stormy-daniels-testif...

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by NoMoreNicksLeft on Thursday February 20, 2025 @11:36AM (#43116807)
>you have to disregard at least 26 [1] public allegations of rape if you want to give him a pass,

Allegations mean little, and for celebrities they tend to pile up proportionate to their fame. We live in a society that has absolutely no disincentives for false allegations of rape, and that has only grown more true the last few decades.

Instead of disregarding 26 allegations, one has to wonder why anyone would regard them in the first place. Furthermore, for many people, their regard/disregard is highly selective and comes down to the politics of the accused.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by JKCalhoun on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:10PM (#43117327)
Wow, a free pass for celebrities.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by InsideOutSanta on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:46PM (#43117819)
Well, Trump does agree with you:

"When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by grobbyy on Saturday February 22, 2025 @07:14PM (#43144753)
I mean, with Trump, you don't need to look for allegations. You have "grab them by the pussy." We know he was a sexual predator.

However, I've seen both credible and less than credible allegations even against him.

I have no idea about this specific one, but we live in a disinformation sphere on just about everything these days....

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by electrondood on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:36AM (#43115953)
Here's a list of people who are both famous and polarizing, along with their number of credible claims of sexual assault.

1. Elon Musk - 1

2. Donald Trump - 26

3. Kanye West - 0 known

4. Greta Thunberg - 0 known

5. Joe Rogan - 0 known

6. Jordan Peterson - 0 known

7. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - 0 known

8. Andrew Tate - < 10

9. Vladimir Putin- 0 known

10. Mark Zuckerberg - 0 known

The idea that just being famous and polarizing attracts false allegations, is false.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by Acrobatic_Road on Thursday February 20, 2025 @03:27PM (#43119739)
There is no incentive to make up allegations against most of those people. But if you make up a false allegation against a presidential candidate, it could cost him the election and move national politics in the direction you favor. How many allegations did Trump have against him before vs. after running for president?
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by nobankai on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:53PM (#43122169)
There is no incentive to make up allegations, period. Lying about sexual assault in court is perjury and jeopardizes victims as much as the defendant.

The simpler correlation is that most of the people on that list respect the law and do not consider themselves beyond reproach. Mind you, Tate was fleeing Interpol on human trafficking charges when he was arrested. These men know what they did wrong which is why they lash out when accused instead of respecting due process.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by Acrobatic_Road on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:21PM (#43122439)
>There is no incentive to make up allegations, period.

That's obviously not true. For example, this woman confessed to making up an sexual assault allegation for political purposes:

>One of Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh’s accusers admitted this week that she made up her lurid tale of a backseat car rape, saying it “was a tactic” to try to derail the judge’s confirmation to the Supreme Court.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kavanaugh-accuser-admits-she-fabr...

https://globalnews.ca/news/4628088/brett-kavanaugh-rape-accu...

And we know that at up to 10% of rape accusations are provably false. The real number of fake accusations could well be higher.

https://archive.is/x0DEo#selection-915.19-919.1

>Lying about sexual assault in court is perjury and jeopardizes victims as much as the defendant.

So what? If I make up an allegation against you, there is little risk to me unless you can PROVE I lied. But if the "evidence" against you is just my word, what can you do with that to establish that I am lying?

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by roenxi on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:21PM (#43121806)
I think your argument is spot on, but there is important context which can be revealed by doing the same list for assassination attempts. Trump is qualitatively different from these other people - it just isn't because he is famous and polarising.

And Vladamir Putin (0), seriously? Good luck to anyone who attempts to make a public accusation against him. There will be a fatal fall through a window in their future. He could have raped 200 women and nobody would say a thing.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by watwut on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:47AM (#43116109)
My impression is that any allegation is considered false unless at least 19 women came forward and 3 of them have video evidence.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by amanaplanacanal on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:43AM (#43114527)
Unless you were in the courtroom and heard the evidence, you don't have enough information to have an opinion. The jury heard the evidence, and made their determination.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by roenxi on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:13PM (#43121718)
Trump just won a major election. If there was evidence he did something improper people really should bring it up instead of vague claims that he did something, but we don't need to look too closely. Saying there is evidence but only these 12 people need to see it isn't really meeting the necessary standard. What is the evidence here? It looks like 3 friends agree that something happened around 30 years ago and they should now be paid millions of dollars.

That, and I'm being blunt here, isn't plausible enough to take seriously. I can point at people who think Trump is a fascist who must be stopped at all costs; he's even been the subject of 2 assassination attempts. The idea that 3 people might make a false change is just too plausible. Particularly in New York. A lot of the lawfare that has been unreasonably targeting Trump is happening there.

And if anyone ever accuses me of assaulting them, just saying, I feel a reasonable expectation is that they work out what year it happened.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by InsideOutSanta on Thursday February 20, 2025 @05:48AM (#43113248)
I'm assuming this is what they're betting on.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by k__ on Thursday February 20, 2025 @05:58AM (#43113309)
Don't know, but I read somewhere that the president can't pardon breaks of federal law.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by InsideOutSanta on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:06AM (#43113359)
It's the other way around; the presidential pardoning power is limited to federal offenses.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by yoyoyoyop on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:36AM (#43113972)
Perhaps why yesterday he was saying he should take over the running of DC..
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by nickthegreek on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:37AM (#43115182)
DC is already controlled federally.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by k__ on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:50AM (#43116145)
Ah, thanks!
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by sillyfluke on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:14AM (#43113403)
What I found significant here is that Trump (yesterday) and/or the Whitehouse stated that Elon Musk does not work for Doge and has no authority over it at all, that Elon Musk has no authority regarding anything and is solely an advisor to the president.

Of course, in practical terms "in the field" this is obviously not the case. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was Elon's ego that triggered this: that at the end of the day needing a pardon would be an insult and would bruise his ego so he wants to prevent any pathway for him to be charged with a crime. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if the Doge "interns" would need one regardless.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by jonstewart on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:06AM (#43114181)
Cynically, Trump and Musk are using each other. They both want huge swaths of the federal government dismantled—Trump found his whims stymied by laws and regulations and the bureaucrats who abide by them in his first administration, while federal regulations are constraining both Tesla (cars should work and be safe) and Space-X (starships blowing up shouldn’t pollute, Starlink shouldn’t clutter space, etc).

Musk is stealing the spotlight. At the appropriate time, Trump can fire him and blame him for overstepping his bounds—I have already seen this talking point privately from GOP operatives. They’ll both have gotten what they wanted, and we’ll all be stuck footing the bill.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by j16sdiz on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:00AM (#43114705)
IMO, this sounds totally like what happened in China.

Trump will get his unchallenged power like Xi or Mao did.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by alistairSH on Thursday February 20, 2025 @09:19AM (#43114932)
Not just that, but DoJ lawyers are simultaneously (in different court cases) arguing DOGE both is and is not a federal agency.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by IncreasePosts on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:52AM (#43116174)
In that case, can't the next president just illegally imprison Elon or trump or whoever for their entire administration, ignore supreme court rulings or lawsuits or whatever, and then issue themselves a pardon at the end?
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by aredox on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:59AM (#43116267)
Yes, and restrict the 2nd amendment by fiat, etc...

But Democrats "play nice" and respect the law. Biden could have ordered Trump assassinated as soon as the Supreme Court invented the new interpretation that puts president on a piedestal, but he was never going to do it.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by InsideOutSanta on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:49PM (#43117858)
But Democrats "play nice" and respect the law.

That's the problem with the argument that Republicans need to be careful about setting precedents that Democrats will then also abuse: no Republican believes that any Democratic president will actually do this. In fact, a lot of Republicans probably don't believe that there will ever be another Democratic president.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by ethagnawl on Thursday February 20, 2025 @12:05PM (#43117231)
Based on last year's Supreme Court rulings and what Trump/DOGE have gotten away with thus far, it'd seem so. However, democrats insist on wearing kid gloves to a chainsaw massacre, so don't count on anything like that (or, more realistically, within a lesser order of magnitude) ever happening.
Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by insane_dreamer on Thursday February 20, 2025 @02:17PM (#43118867)
Trump has explicitly said he is above the law: "He who saves the country cannot break the law" is what he posted.

He pardoned people who stormed the capital, threatened gov officials, and killed police officers. Pardoning DOGE employees is child's play -- but it would never get that far because the DOJ and FBI have been purged of those not fully subservient to Trump.

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by redeeman on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:48PM (#43122112)
> He pardoned people who stormed the capital

you mean "He pardoned people who were guided in by the security staff working the capital building"?

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by insane_dreamer on Friday February 21, 2025 @01:02AM (#43124471)
I hope that's sarcasm, but if not please watch this[0] and explain how this looks like a guided tour

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z3YBtzwmHk

Re:DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data by cryptonector on Thursday February 20, 2025 @04:28PM (#43120452)
Yes, that is always true. It usually doesn't happen. Mainly because DoJ usually doesn't look. Congress can perform oversight and impeach if need be.