Further, People keep telling me the communities are great but I've yet to find one of these mythical great communities. Or maybe my definition of great community is different than others. For me a great community was a forum I was on in 2004-5 where people stuck around and actually responded. on reddit I rare find useful responses
I find it funny, that I am completely opposite. I would very much prefer the local news/politics/crime, as this directly affects me and my life - e.g. don't go to the highway today, because protestors block it. Vs. the boring similar photos I've probably already saw like 100 times from a slightly different angle or they are not interesting at all and author highly overestimates their photography skill.
I’ve started a blog about my summer house in the Sierra Nevada foothills as a way to stay connected with friends and family. Suddenly, I have around 100 subscribers… from Russia, as the blog is in Russian. Although it may not feature anything particularly extraordinary, such as the sky, plants, and animals, these things remain captivating to me. The ever-changing scenery, including the sky, apricot and lilac trees, raccoons, cats, and deer, seems not boring to my readers too. It’s incredible to think that a hundred people in Russia are concerned alongside me when a stray cat returns after my absence in California… We also laugh together on California politics but not very often.
The blog is hosted on Telegram, not Reddit though - for obvious reasons.
1 -- The moderators pay for the privilege of moderating.
or
2 -- No moderators at all. Let me decide what I want to see via some kind of interface to an "AI thingie".
I’m not sure you’re going to convince many stakeholders that completely uprooting the golden-goose of free moderation for the site is a worthwhile venture.
The server should keep my list and serve me text according to it. Also it should allow readers to exchange such lists. If I trust some guy - he could serve as my personal moderator, but a mild one compared to the current regime - my list #1 will never be interfered with. Cheap?
I can't imagine advertisers would be a big fan of that either.
And likely puts reddit firmly in the the AI farm crosshairs as well, so reddit will be overrun.
I think the only good content will be in archived discord channels, or obscure boards that aren't worth aiming AI farms at, but even then, it will probably get scanned and targeted.
The only thing that might work is identifying AI information vacuums by their distinct behavior and serving them counter-fake AI content, while user access patterns (as referenced in the above comments about Google-specific reddit robots infrastruction) get the "real stuff".
I almost wonder if intentional misspelling and curse words will start to be used to "scare off" AIs and bots from content, and that will become the new codewords for actual information. Like people online in China these days.
If they deem the content valuable enough, I get the feeling that they'd instead just correct for it (e.g. auto-correct mispellings; replace and/or omit curse words).
It may get to the point wherein the only way to secure content is to hide it behind a paywall or otherwise make it non-public, then forbid via the TOS. There'd probably need to be court challenges even then.
I also wonder if the LinkedIn case involving scraping (wherein the ruling was essentially that public data was fair game), will be re-tested in the age of AI.
This makes me think that you’ve never been a mod of an active forum or subreddit.
Without mods, popular forums will be spammed and/or gamed into oblivion. Most voting mechanisms are trivially easy to manipulate when potential earnings are involved.
Mods only worsen the manipulation problem
Forums really kind of suck once they get over particular sizes and never ending battles erupt.
Isn't that what downvotes are for?
So, if the admins of the site to a really good job of banning accounts that exist for the purpose of vote manipulation, then voting works ok. If not the votes that generally dictate how well a post/topic does occur within the first few minutes of posting.
Post topic -> Upvote -> Post conformation messages of approval of the topic -> bots upvote these posts -> bots downvote anyone that disagree.
Moreso, downvotes themselves don't directly address things like raids and sustained attacks by bad actors. These kinds of attacks make the end user feel like they don't want to be in that subforum driving them off elsewhere and lowering participation. It can also embolden others to post more similar content to what the bots are posting.
I was a mod on a reasonably large subreddit. One day, someone decides to post links to extreme and shocking images but make them look like regular posts. Delete, ban, move on. They come back with a new account. Delete, ban, move on, implement limits on new accounts. They would then spend months warming up new accounts, using them to write regular posts and messages, before doing the same thing. This was a thankless task and most regular users never realized it was even going on.
Then, on the other side, there were people who absolutely lost it when they felt you made a bad decision. I deleted a post asking for cash under the table work in a local sub, combined with multiple people offering what looked like clearly illegal work. Multiple regular members of the community went absolutely crazy, as if I had personally wronged them.
I enjoyed running the subreddit but I had to give up. The person who took over after definitely enjoys the power a little bit too much. That's what you get when it's a volunteer gig.
Correct. There are powermods who "moderate" hundreds of subreddits. This is not an exaggeration. Hundreds. At least one has/had thousands.
Why do they do this, when they are not paid? When questioned, they invariably say that they "just watch the incoming queue" or something, and the other mods "do all the work". While likely true in the literal sense (again, hundreds), such answers of course completely evade the question.
Remember, "Most of What You Read on the Internet is Written by Insane People" <https://np.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most_...>. This also applies to powermods, assuming they're not being paid on the side to push some ideology (/r/politics being an obvious example).
As you said, losers who crave ruling a petty fiefdom because it's the only thing they can exercise agency over in their lives. And/or are mentally ill.
Quoting another:
>and for each moderator there are 100 sycophants and narcissists lined up to take their place
Most mods know this, which is why so many surrendered and reopened their subreddits during the recent "protest" the moment admins told them that otherwise they would be replaced. /r/formula1's mods forthrightly said as much; those of /r/nba claimed that negotiations had progressed far enough to justify reopening, which the thousands of replies show that the userbase 100% disbelieves.
Even worse, a) /r/nba's top mod made more than 150 comments to six other NBA teams' subreddits during the blackout. b) /r/nba mods posted secret threads—including the Game 5 discussion that they denied from their own users—and made comments during the blackout. When users discovered the threads the mods of course scrubbed the comments, but there is no way for mods to actually delete (as opposed to hiding) posts, so evidence of their hypocritical behavior will live on forever.
Bonus: The classic post in which a mod thinks what he does is worth $175K a year <https://np.reddit.com/r/35orquit/comments/qw1v3e/what_do_peo...>. Be sure to read to the end, where he explains how he "saves lives".
Tell me you've never moderated anything popular without telling me you've never moderated anything popular.
Even 4chan has some moderation these days.
A disclaimer, I'm super against on how reddit is being managed nowadays, I've been a user since 2010, the golden era, no political bias crap, no stupid woke mods, everyone was happy and content was objectively moderated. Having said that, I can assure you moderation is a necessity.
I ask because I have some ideas about how to implement a moderation-less reddit-alike. (I think I know how to eliminate spam)
Then report back in 8 weeks.
Is this tongue in cheek? I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Reddit would be awful without moderation.
2. I believe you, like many others, conflate 4chan's right-ward overton window, with "less" moderation. moot had a saying "one man's shitpost is another man's board culture". You perceive 4chan as having "less moderation" because your world view aligns with 4chan, not because they do less moderation.
This is exactly what RapeApe did with /pol/. Because 4chan is less transparent, it feels like there's no curation; especially when what stays on the board feels like "board culture". Would infinity-chan and other boards would exist if they did their current style of moderation of silently deleting posts instead of moot coming out and openly lambasting gamergate?
4chan moderation used to be way more visible, especially under moot, because moderators actually openly interacted with the board. Now that moderators are functionally anonymous, it seems like they don't try to influence the boards, when in actuality, 4chan mods are far less transparent.
People once believed 4chan was less moderated because they stopped seeing "(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)", when in actuality they just removed the posts instead.
Idk I feel like there's a better middle ground then what we experience now with reddit mods and having it be a total free for all
Some mods are, but the only reason people really think this is because the heavy-handed aspects are the visible ones. Nobody really sees mods removing random spam threads and comments, that's the whole point. Good modding is mostly invisible.
I get their necessary, at least for now, because of spam. But like I'm said I think there's a better middle ground and we can rely on the community users more.
You'll see situations where most people are nominally opposed to low-effort memes while everyone upvotes the low-effort memes, and then people complain that there are too many low-effort memes cluttering the front page and now the sub is trash and they're leaving.
edit: though honestly I don't think volunteer mods scale well either. A tiny niche sub can get by with just a couple mods just fine, but when they get 100x as popular, can they then have 200 mods? Or have 2000 mods for the most popular subs? No, there's just no way to coordinate that many volunteers sensibly, not in an environment like Reddit.
every single parenting/mom sub is inundated by formula companies.
every fan niche like comicbooks is full of bot accounts in training (building up karma with low effort posts and repeat copy posts from previous days from other posters).
everything, everywhere.
> every single parenting/mom sub is inundated by formula companies.
Okay, if it's every single one, show me all the formula company inundation in r/daddit. Should be easy if they're absolutely everywhere, like you say, right?
Quite often the bots just look like contributors until you realize they've never had an original comment in their posting history. More often it seems they are involved in creating consensus and nudging votes up and down and in general making it more painful karma wise for those that don't toe the line.
Not a daddit visitor, but it appears that formula is an uncommon discussion on that sub. Either it's not a popular topic, or it's being banned when it's too obvious.
I wouldn't go so far as to say reddit has been taken over by bots but I've started to wonder more and more about it.
I generally feel like things have subtly but noticably changed for the worse since the exodus but I can't name a replacement in general except for some topic specific forums here and there.
On the bright side I do think the new UI has improved noticably. I still revert to the old site often but the new site is better than it used to be.
It probably doesn't work out that way in practice since the karma farming bots may not be that sophisticated, but I think it's a cool idea at least.
Unless you actually have a reason to have good idea of who you're interacting with you should probably assume they are trolls, shills, or children. Those are BY FAR the most common Internet activity.
For example - I'm a normal human. I'll post a few comments on HN once in a while. Maybe a few up votes from time-to-time. Sometimes I don't think about HN for days. I don't post on other social media/forums. My father-in-law is a troll, he spends 10+ hours a day every day commenting and voting on various articles with his hundreds of sock puppet accounts. Which one are you more likely to see? Myself or my FIL?
There is an enormous vested interest to not let this become public and should make you question the concept that conspiracy can’t exist somehow
If 1 formula company has 1 reddit bot that posts 1 post every month in every parenting subreddit, is that considered a bot infestation? How many bot posts is necessary to be considered endemic?
I'd say the only real weakness is that sometimes the recommendations lean too hard on being for enthusiasts, and don't always fit what a casual user of a thing cares about. But other than that they're pretty great.
All the "just asking questions" posts pushing certain narratives in every regional subrredit are also quite noticeable.
For me that is proof enough, but other people might have different standards.
In any case, my main proof is the narrative pushing (which imo is obvious)
If such things exist in subs I visit, I don't see it. Either the reposts are downvoted so I don't see them, the repost is the first time I'm seeing it making it a good post from my perspective, or they aren't reposts and the bots are making good contributions.
I definitely notice the astroturfing accounts in the subs that are marketing profitable (usually lifestyle subs like fitness, fashion, cooking, investing, etc), but not every sub is profitable or even open to product endorsement. At least, I very rarely ever see such things in the video games subs I visit. I'm not even sure how you could mix in such posts into a sub like /r/rimworld.
It was neat at fist, but then it basically became people getting uptight about everything. “Your rules don’t say we can’t posted obvious spam”, “you need a transparent process for appealing things”, “mod suck here”.
Like, I don’t care enough to provide a service for a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, start your own sub.
What strange creatures people are.
It almost self-selects for the worst type of people. You not only have to have tons of free time, you have to be willing to be "paid" for your work in the small amounts of power you can wield in an online discussion board. In theory if you have a few people they could contribute a bit of time and have it covered... but like you say, the weirdos "out-spend" them on time and muscle their way in.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/ is all foreigners.
You end up with lots of expats whining about that it is hard to find new friends and the tax system is not the same as they are used to.
Interestingly, my (smaller) city's sub has quite a cozy community. There are sometimes lively debates, and we do have a few complete idiots hanging around, but for the most part, it is a pleasant place to be.
My county's main sub (r/Canada) on the other hand, is mostly moderated by foreigners with far-right connections. Yesterday's budget announcement was initially greeted by a flurry of positive posts. Less than 24 hours later, most of these had been removed by the mods, and replaced with a barrage of negative posts, obviously originating from Russian misinformation farms.
That’s what counts as moderation these days on Reddit. Parts of Reddit are still ok but others are utter trashfires presided over by power tripping lunatics that have taken over the asylum
I have an account all about some particular vice and honestly its been well received
There are VERY FEW ad hominem attacks. Its like people treat you better when they know they cant hurt you in comparison to people that try to have a post history tip toeing around topics and subs.
I think it’s symptomatic of what you see with other extreme personalities, they wind up getting so many followers that either agree with them or amplify them that they keep up that character. But this reddit version actually lets me navigate mainstream subs easier too, and ppl that try to suggest I cant have an intelligent opinion because of my post history get jumped on for being unprogressive or something. It’s amusing, and freeing.
Its been far better than whatever else I was doing, I kind of feel bad for everyone else
So throwaways don't really work for all purposes.
My favourite was when I commented on a post on /r/art of a naked woman, replying to a guy who was complaining that only naked women got on the front page, to which I commented with “it’s very simple, naked woman = upvotes”. I was permabanned immediately after with no reason given, so when I asked what rule I broke, I was replied with - and I quote literally - “the one you didn’t read :)”. I still have no idea what rule I broke, if I even broke one.
Now, I could honestly not care any less about it, it was just an interesting interaction because of how unprofessional it was. It is kind of understandable, given that these guys don’t even get paid to moderate a very considerable influx of content, but still, it’s a very mild example of a larger problem that spans across the whole website. You have power tripping moderators that just do whatever they feel, some of them even banning based on what subs you interacted prior, regardless of content, and some of them even moderate hundreds, if not thousands, of subs. It’s insane. And yeah, any sub that has even the slightest hint of anything political is FUBAR.
It’s almost like the moderation never evolved past what I would expect from a niche joomla forum from the 2000 with hundreds of users… except now it’s one of the biggest sites on the internet. It’s quite bizarre.
What's become intolerable to me about Reddit is even if you use old.reddit, the entire site is last I checked in the moderation stats of one top 1000 sub I still have mod access to, is about 99% people on new reddit and it shows. People are linked to ragebait on the regular and you see chronically online but consistently misanthropic takes from people of all political afflictions on the regular. This is especially on the city subs but it's diffused to the entire website.
The moderation got worse because in Reddit's latest move to kill 3rd party apps they alienated many users who had been there for more than a decade and I still think people underestimate how much those people served as glue and unpaid labour, who just got alienated by contributing to a website for free and for no real reward other than being able to power trip that fundamentally abuses its user base. So as bad as the moderation has always been it has gotten even worse.
It's also clear that people have been brainwashed by one of the original sins of Reddit, the Karma system, where being fast and popular counts for more than being deliberate and correct. I know that I'm on a site that uses the same system but there is still a sense of what used to be called "reddiquette" and social stigma against abusing the system. It's not just that the worst posts are promoted, and they are, it's that people are so interested in playing the game just so their posts get seen that the average post quality is in the toilet.
Honestly my main problem with reddit was always the moderation, that how one sub can be taken over by certain ideologies. Which is worse when it happens to local (country, city) subs. I can't ready my city's sub because it's always the same tired politics posts instead of "what are some good restaurants" or "here is a photo of a building I've never seen before".