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Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by MuffinFlavored on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:32PM (#39196842)
I wonder given all this... what the expectations are at Apple from a higher up/board/executive standpoint are

Most of Apple offerings are good:

Watch

iPad

Mac

iPhone

services

Are they really expecting this to just be a hard problem initially that they get better at over time? When is the last time they launched a "so so" product?

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by electroly on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:39PM (#39196931)
Apple Maps falls in that category. Maps was bad when it came out but after years of effort (and a lot of money), it's pretty good now. That was no small feat given how good Google Maps already was when Apple Maps started.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ChrisMarshallNY on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:52PM (#39197075)
In my area (Long Island), Apple Maps works great (better than Google Maps). I hear that it falls down, in rural areas, though.

[edit]

Looks like I pissed in someone’s cereal. Didn’t mean to, but different strokes, and all that…

I was just recounting actual personal experience, which, I suppose, isn’t popular, hereabouts.

Just for context, I have been writing Apple programs, since 1986. I am totally committed to their products, and their vision (although I have no opinion, –yet– on their Vision), and have every right to be critical. Those of us that have been on the ride for that long, have seen a very bumpy road.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jsheard on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:36PM (#39197544)
I just checked my area in Apple Maps out of interest and my own house, which I've lived in for longer than Apple Maps has existed, is listed as belonging to a business I've never heard of. The only actually existing business I can find with that name is at the opposite side of the country.

Not a great first impression. Also while I can view Apple Maps via a third party like DuckDuckGo, you can only report a map issue through an Apple device, so I guess it's staying wrong.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ganoushoreilly on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:05PM (#39198830)
It's possible a previous tenant used that address or was attached to a business with that name. It happens to offices all the time as well. We had like 8 businesses attached to one of our offices, where only 1 ever existed. They were all tied to the owner and original filings used the address temporarily.

Still weird either way.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by geoffmunn on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:37PM (#39197559)
Apple Maps in New Zealand is really, really good. Travel estimates are nearly perfect.

In smaller countries though, it's total rubbish. Samoa, travel guidance is nearly non-existent. Tahiti, very patchy. In those countries, Google Maps was perfect.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by AndrewStephens on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:50PM (#39197707)
It really is location dependent. I find that Apple Maps has much better driving directions and a better UI that doesn't get in the way. Google Maps on the other hand typically has much more up-to-date information on businesses and restaurants. I am in the habit of using both if I am trying to find an unfamiliar business address.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by darkteflon on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:07PM (#39197864)
I generally find the quality of Apple Maps to be quite good here in Tokyo, although unfortunately Google does still seem to have them beat pretty consistently. The recently completed Azabudai Hills complex, for instance, is correctly rendered on GM, while AM still shows the pre-development layout.

However, one bug that is a showstopper in AM is the dreaded “can’t reach the server now”, which I get probably more than half the time I try to use it, and with apparently no solution other than wait.

As a result, I just removed it from my phone.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by YoumuChan on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:31PM (#39197488)
I gave Apple Map a second chance after hearing good things about it recently.

But it gave me a route where I need to turn left right after taking a right-turn ramp, except that the left turning line are separated by road dividers before the exit of the ramp. So I would need to either go wrong direction and do a 180, or bulldoze the dividers. As a comparison, Google Map never gave me that route in the past.

This happened in a moderately sized town so I guess I will still stick to Google Map for now.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Fomite on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:07PM (#39197224)
In my particular rural area, Apple Maps knows the street I live on exists. Google Maps still needs a call to delivery people to explain to them that their map is lying to them.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by bozhark on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:09PM (#39198392)
Apple Maps still sucks though. Even if it’s better now, recent use is still ridiculous erroneous.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Mistletoe on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:55PM (#39197113)
Apple Maps could be improved with classic hard work on the software etc. Apple Vision Pro is against the same problems of physics and usability that other VR and AR headsets are up against. I’m leaning towards they will never be “solved”, because using a monitor and keyboard or tv and controller works really well.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by chaostheory on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:17PM (#39197348)
Portable monitors do not work as well. Monitors in general could also always be bigger speaking as a programmer.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by worksonmine on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:19PM (#39197370)
Duckduckgo uses Apple Maps and it's completely unusable. Might be a Duckduckgo issue but last I tried a few weeks ago I couldn't even pan in Firefox without randomly snapping back to the pin. When I wanted context I'd work around it by just zooming out and be done with it. Still have to turn to the Devil if I want a decent map experience.

Ridiculous.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by thelastparadise on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:18PM (#39197359)
> That was no small feat given how good Google Maps already was when Apple Maps started.

Gmaps also helped by enshittifying itself.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by yellow_postit on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @01:00AM (#39200505)
There’s a clear strategic reason for that — reduce dependence on Google for more vertical integration.

I don’t see the VisionOS play here and wonder if it’ll be Tim Apple’s first major fail at the helm. There’s no clear set of competitors or established industry for Apple to just polish like they have with most products. There’s not an obvious large tam for VR headsets and I’m skeptical optical ar is close. I don’t get it but I’m sure the internal Apple and board view it as a strong thesis.

Still glad it’s this and not a car.

Looking forward to how it plays out.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by physicsguy on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @06:55AM (#39202726)
I live in the UK in a small village next to a large city. Just had a quick look and there are tons of issues within the 1 mile radius, that don't have issues on Google Maps.

* A pub that doesn't exist - there is one about 15 miles with that name, but there's never been one called that here.

* The local church is in the wrong place

* The opening hours of the local cafe are wrong (11:30-3:30 instead of 10:00-3:00)

* Business names aren't correct

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @07:23AM (#39202919)
Apple Naps has sent me to the middle of cornfields.

Generally, if you are in a city it is fine, but don't use it if you are rural.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ChrisMarshallNY on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:51PM (#39197066)
The first iPhone was pretty terrible. I couldn't get my Marketing peers to take it seriously (which they came to regret).

The first Watch was awful. I love my Series 8.

Don't get me started on the first Mac...

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by AndrewStephens on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:02PM (#39197828)
The first iPhone was terribly limited compared to what came after it was not in any way terrible for the time. The demo Steve Jobs did was so good that a lot of people just refused to believe it was possible, only to be proven wrong when the thing went on sale.

You have to put it in context with what passed for a smart phone back then. No web browser (they sort of existed but were extremely cut down and not really usable), small screens with limited software, very limited connectivity that was very expensive.

A valid criticism was the lack of physical keyboard, which phone-jockies found a deal breaker, but in all other ways a phone with decent apps, a large screen, a real web browser designed around and provided with unlimited internet connectivity was always going to be a hit.

It wasn't even that expensive compared to other phones.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by anonymouse008 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:06PM (#39198367)
We all forgot how awesome inertial scroll was. Scrolling through emails or text messages was absolutely bonkers - it actually allowed us to use the full informational capacity of the screen.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by AndrewStephens on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:17PM (#39198927)
Exactly this. I vividly remember watching that first public demo and thinking "sure, this is OK but touch screens are really annoying to use". When I saw Jobs flick through a list of contacts (or whatever it was) I was blown away. Finally somebody had made touch screens useful.

I am sure someone with quibble that some other product technically had something similar first, and they are probably right. But the iPhone demo was the first time I had seen anything quite like it.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by anonymouse008 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:44PM (#39199132)
Yup. This was what they were supposed to do for 'spatial computing' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c40cxE-dfPg

Turning on a light bulb, ordinary light in the house, meh, ok, then swipe your hands out over the counter and the recipe pulls up. That's the 'oh wow' moment. Then grab and throw a song to a Homepod connection. You know what I mean...

There's a gap someone can shoot, maybe 3 years tops. Honestly though, the developer ecosystem is just so tight, continuity so powerful, doing this solo requires more than what the whole MFi program offers.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by rodgerd on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:47PM (#39198213)
> The first iPhone was terribly limited compared to what came after it was not in any way terrible for the time.

At the time my feature phone had much better MMS, video calling, and J2ME apps. The first iPhone was a joke by comparison looked at through that lens, and detractors generally were looking at the fact it was this hobbled 2G device missing features that were common in other, cheaper phones. Oh, and the camera was absolute garbage, too.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by AndrewStephens on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:03PM (#39198347)
You are not wrong but Apple predicted that none of those things mattered and they were proven right.

MMS worked well enough but was/is pretty limited. Video calling existed but postage stamp video at 8 frames per second was not something that anyone wanted to actually use. And don't get me started on J2ME, an ecosystem so vast that Google didn't even bother to include it in Android even though they are both based on Java. Although other phones had better cameras, none took what we would call an acceptable photos today.

What people did use all the time was the browser and only the iPhone had a decent one. That was the only thing that mattered. Heck, the iPhone wasn't even a very good _phone_ and even that didn't matter.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by elzbardico on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:27PM (#39198541)
Please don't remember me of J2ME. I felt relieved getting back to develop EJBs with xdoclet after a short stint working in a J2ME project.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by 83457 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:42PM (#39199126)
> You have to put it in context with what passed for a smart phone back then. No web browser (they sort of existed but were extremely cut down and not really usable)

I based my purchase of phones in the early to mid 00s on whether they came with the full Opera Mobile browser.

I could use just about everything online the same as desktop, that didn't rely on flash of course. The screen size was small but surprisingly wasn't a big issue as everything else was a massive improvement.

Oh Nokia 3660, how I loved thee. I actually chose the 3650 and then 3660 because they seemed to be the best smartphones at a standard sized. I just couldn't justify qwerty.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:58PM (#39197144)
> The first iPhone was pretty terrible.

I definitely do not think that opinion was widespread. If anything I think that the biggest discussed shortcoming of the first iPhone was that it was only available on AT&T.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ssl-3 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:12PM (#39197297)
For example:

It didn't multitask, even though other pocket computers for a Long Time had at least the appearance of multitasking. It didn't have the ability to install any additional software, even though other pocket computers for a Long Time handled third-party software just fine. It didn't even have a copy/paste function, even though [WTF? Srsly, Apple?].

All of these things were eventually corrected by Apple, but it was pretty awful until they were corrected: For quite some time, the iPhone was just a rather fancy touchscreen music player with telephone and SMS programs tacked on.

(More damning: All of these things were corrected very quickly by third parties via jailbreaks. Some of us were having a ball with first-gen IOS devices very early on in the game, but Apple wasn't any help in getting that accomplished.)

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:16PM (#39197956)
I guess I (and to be honest, reviewers at large at the time) just have a very different definition of "pretty terrible". Sure, it was easy to see how it wasn't "fully complete", but I think that is true of literally every brand new product.

And to take two of your examples, multitasking and 3rd party software, yeah, other pocket computers had them, and they generally sucked hard (see, Windows Mobile). Even the lack of copy/paste - other phones had them, but there was (and honestly still is) considerable debate over how it should be implemented given multitouch was new.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by pazimzadeh on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:23PM (#39197406)
Yeah, but the first iPod touch was great. It came out only 3 months after the iPhone.

It seems like the Vision Pro 1 has the M2 so that when the Vision, or Vision Air comes out, it will be at least as powerful as the first Pro. And the Pro 2 can have the M3.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ssl-3 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:42PM (#39197622)
First iPod Touch was even worse: It had all of the limitations of the iPhone, plus it additionally lacked cellular connectivity, messaging, voice, Bluetooth, GPS, speaker, Bluetooth, and camera.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by pazimzadeh on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @02:31AM (#39201077)
The first iPhone didn't have GPS either. No iPods had speakers back then so that wasn't missed, you just used your earbuds. It was great for browsing the web and media consumption, since you either had WiFi or you didn't (no slow Edge network to tease you). Once the App store came out you had Instapaper for offline reading, and Google Voice for messaging/calls.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ssl-3 on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:15AM (#39202044)
You're right. The first iPhone did not have GPS. But it did have the connectivity to make other geolocation services useful, at least in a "Where the fuck am I at?" sense. (And the iPod Touch also had wifi-based geolocation services that were spooky-good, if it was online somehow.)

But from various PalmOS devices to whatever Android device is in my pocket right now, carrying wired headphones has never been a thing for me for whatever reason.

So as a Google Voice user since it was still called GrandCentral, having Google Voice available on a Wifi-connected touchscreen pocket music player called an iPod Touch was simply never very useful to me: The OG iPod Touch was lousy as a telephone, since it lacked all of the basic parts (like a microphone or an earpiece) that made telephones useful, and SMS was not yet in its heyday back then either.

I got much better use of the service with my dumb phone with T9 text input and transcription of voicemails to SMS, and my dumb phone worked anywhere instead of just where I could find a Wifi network.

Jailbroken, the iPod was an amazing pocket computer with a brilliant display, thin profile, and exceptional responsiveness to touch input, especially with third-party apps and improvements installed. It was fun having a real *nix userland installed on it, and it sure seemed novel to SSH from it.

By default, though? Almost useless except as a music player -- a task that previous iPods did better.

(I mostly used my OG iPod Touch to take offline notes. It did OK at this, but previously-used PalmOS devices did better in terms of input speed and portability of those notes.

Even relatively high-end aftermarket car stereos at the time were afraid of it: "Oh, why sure I can play music with your iPod!

Except.. is that an iPod Touch?"

"shun shun shun")

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by hollandheese on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:01PM (#39199721)
>For quite some time, the iPhone was just a rather fancy touchscreen music player with telephone and SMS programs tacked on.

It had the only truly usable mobile web browser. Windows Mobile's IE was trash, and the browsers on Palm OS, Blackberry and Symbian were laughable. This was the killer app (especially on Wifi, EDGE was not great).

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by makeitdouble on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:41PM (#39197617)
We should bear in mind that at the time it launched many early adopters were on the fence and kept a second phone around (most people around me did until basically the iPhone 4). We look back at it as a fun area, but it was in part because we accepted it was flawed and limited.

When trying to use the iPhone seriously, at some point it wouldn't receive calls anymore (just silently crash the deamon receiving it, you'd never know if not told by the caller afterwards), drop active calls when battery was too low (single digit), call quality could be horrible, stuff would crash from time to time.

Memory would leak like a sueve from everywhere so rebooting the phone every now and then was good hygiene. It's only after the 3GS that it stabilized, otherwise antennagate would have been just another tuesday IMO.

It was still a stellar device, but not a fully reliable device in any way shape or form.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by herval on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:06PM (#39197217)
It was usable on any other network, I had one and it wasn’t AT&T locked

Compared to all the smartphones of the time, it was a slow toy with no apps and a 2G connection that was completely worthless

It looked nice though, and eventually it got an app store (unnoficially first), and the overall UX was a clear winner (nobody believed touch screens would ever replace blackberry style devices!)

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:23PM (#39197411)
https://appleinsider.com/articles/10/05/10/apple_att_origina...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_iPhone

> When Apple announced the iPhone on January 9, 2007,[38] it was sold only with AT&T (formerly Cingular) contracts in the United States.[32] After 18 months of negotiations, Steve Jobs reached an agreement with the wireless division of AT&T[39] to be the iPhone's exclusive carrier. Consumers were unable to use any other carrier without unlocking their device.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by makeitdouble on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:46PM (#39197665)
A few people had it in Japan connected to docomo as a GSM phone. I suppose there were workarounds for other carriers as well.

I don't know how they did it, but "life finds a way" ?

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by hollandheese on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:06PM (#39199759)
There were apps and hacks to sim unlock the original iPhone. I was using mine on T-Mobile after using it for a couple of months on prepaid AT&T GoPhone.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by herval on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:37PM (#39199983)
I definitely did not use AT&T :) (in fact I didn’t even use my iPhone in the US)
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by vel0city on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @12:29AM (#39200316)
> on any other network

> I didn’t even use my iPhone in the US

So you can't really describe the experience for the several different US carriers which it didn't work on, and thus can't really say it worked on any other network. Verizon was a network it didn't work on, and thus fails the "any other network" standard you set earlier.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by herval on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @06:17AM (#39202462)
Pedantic much?

It worked on any GSM network. Tmobile for instance. Verizon and Sprint were the exceptions in the US, since they weren’t GSM.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by vel0city on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:15PM (#39208776)
It is not a minor detail, Verizon and Sprint were two absolutely massive carriers and it was truly impossible to run the iPhone on those networks. And running it on T-Mobile meant voiding your AT&T contract and paying some big fees if buying it first-hand. Practically speaking, to most consumers it was only AT&T.

It is not being pedantic to point out someone is saying something massively untrue.

Your comment makes it sound like anyone could just easily take an OG iPhone and run it on any network, but in reality, to US consumers it was only a few smaller networks and only after breaking an expensive contract. See how that's more than just a pedantic difference?

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by RattlesnakeJake on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:13PM (#39197317)
No copy/paste & no apps were the main criticisms, given that Windows, Palm, & other "less-powerful" devices from that era had those features.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by makeitdouble on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:49PM (#39197701)
Bugginess was to me the main criticism.

Albeit not from the computer nerds who knew what they were getting, but the general public who thought they were buying a phone on par with the Motorola, Nokia or Panasonic phones in term of reliability.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by draculero on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:32PM (#39197502)
The lack of Flash support was mentioned a lot of times.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Rapzid on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:17PM (#39197345)
I remember what I was doing when I first saw it. Eating lunch with a work friend who bought it. I remember what I was eating.

It was incredible and obviously a game changer.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by ChrisMarshallNY on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:07PM (#39197230)
In the case of my company, the camera was bad.

Also, it took over a year to be able to write apps for it.

JS Web apps were not “apps.”

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by chaostheory on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:19PM (#39197371)
That opinion was so widespread that it was still common for people to dismiss the second iPhone version.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by kybernetikos on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:38AM (#39201462)
My memory of it was that when it first came out, it was worse in all ways compared to the best of what already existed, save one, and that was capacitive multi-touch. That was a big enough improvement in itself that nothing else mattered.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by nipponese on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:18PM (#39197358)
For 5 year-old me, the first Mac was pretty amazing.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by codeulike on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:12PM (#39197298)
The first iPhone was pretty terrible

Before Steve stood on that stage in 2007 and demoed the first iPhone, most people had never even seen 'swipe to scroll'. The first iPhone absolutely kicked the arse of everything else. So what if it was 2G that was how most phones were back then. The only objection anyone could think off (e.g. Ballmer) was that it was expensive.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Rapzid on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:22PM (#39197398)
Agreed. It had limitations but at the time nobody was "this phone sucks" because what it did have was fucking amazeballs and clearly the first glimpse at the future. We were witnessing a paradigm shift and aware of it while it was happening.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by epolanski on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:39PM (#39196919)
The first two iWatches were borderline pointless/bad.

The first two iPhones weren't as innovative as they make them,just more polished than other symbians with cameras and internet, it took off with apps really in third iteration.

I think visionpro has lots of opportunities in the next iterations, early users will provide feedback this gen.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by TillE on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:52PM (#39197071)
> The first two iPhones weren't as innovative as they make them

Yes they were. Multi-touch in particular was a revelation. Making a big screen with one physical button is a simple idea, but making it work well was the hard part that nobody else had figured out.

Those first iPhones were dog slow, sure, but they absolutely defined how smartphones work ever since.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by chasd00 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:07PM (#39197226)
don't forget pinch to zoom/expand on actual webpages in an actual web browser.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:34PM (#39198091)
> Those first iPhones were dog slow, sure, but they absolutely defined how smartphones work ever since.

I don’t think this was my experience at all. The first iPhone was always snappy until they started adding random crap everywhere (e.g. by the release of the iPhone 4 the original was near worthless without really old firmware)

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by epolanski on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:08PM (#39197236)
Do you remember the first phone that allowed you to play music? No. The first one to take photos? No. The first with internet? No.

Yet we're supposed to give to consider the iphone a revelation because of multi touch. I had the iphone 3g. It was a more polished experience than other phones but that revelation part was just not there. Apps made it big, later.

I swear people treat iPhones like a cult.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by atonse on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:01PM (#39197814)
I think if you find a good, objective history of the first iPhone, you'll find that it was groundbreaking in many meaningful ways.

It was a full unix OS, not some mobile-specific trash like the others (Symbian, Windows Mobile, Blackberry). Capacitive touch wasn't an invention, but a premium form of touchscreens (most were resistive).

Having nearly 60fps high quality 3d accelerated animations on a phone also contributed to a heavily premium feeling for the software. It enabled things like Inertial Scrolling, which among other things (like first class typography afforded by using OS X, and a fully standards compliant web browser), none of which were "innovations" in the sense of "we came up with this first", but more exceptionally good engineering in service of a great experience.

In almost every way (apart from the "traditional phone metrics" like 2G ironically), the iPhone was a huuuuuge leap forward from the status quo.

It might be true that anyone else could've done it. But nobody else did. It wasn't just luck that Apple did.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by mbreese on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:09PM (#39197882)
I had phones before the iPhone that took pictures and played music (and a Nokia tablet with wifi internet browsing).

The iPhone was the first one that I actually used to take pictures and play music. It wasn’t the first to have those features (and the edge network was super slow), but that polished experience is what made it work. And made it clear to everyone how we would interact with phones for decades to come.

It was a technological inflection point. That’s why it is looked back on the was it is.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:54PM (#39198276)
Multitouch was a huge deal because it allowed a usable Web browser to be offered. That was something no other phone came within a light year of providing.

There was a "cult," all right. It consisted of people like Steve Ballmer plugging their ears, shutting their eyes, and denying the obvious.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by zmmmmm on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:35PM (#39198100)
yep ... i'm generally downplaying Apple's "innovations" but I will say, there was huge scepticism that you could have a phone without a physical keyboard and Apple overnight turned that around. That was a real contribution, IMHO much bigger than anything in Vision OS so far.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by kaonwarb on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:00PM (#39197160)
To each their own perspective! As for me, as a user at the time of fairly cutting-edge cell phones from other manufacturers, my first hands-on with the first iPhone was one of the most memorable technological experiences of my life. Just using the Maps application with multi-touch was magical. Yes, it was slow, limited, etc., but it felt like an entirely different class of device, and that proved to be true.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by herval on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:07PM (#39197229)
Isn’t that what people are saying about the Vision Pro too?

Clunky and sorta useless, but “a new class of device”… eventually

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by checkyoursudo on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:50PM (#39197043)
Are current watches good? I genuinely don't know and am interested. I hadn't gotten one because I was an early iPhone adopter (Gen 1), but haven't been willing to be an early adopter since then. But I would like a watch, if they are good now.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by kstrauser on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:21PM (#39197985)
Yep. They've been great since v7 or so. My S0 watch was... something. Apps took forever to load. Battery life sucked. The UI was still clearly highly experimental. Now even complex apps like OmniFocus launch instantly, and I charge my Ultra every other day. In short, it's a mature product now and works like it's supposed to, without qualifications like "...eventually".
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by sarlalian on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:23PM (#39197409)
I'm sure the later ones are also great, but as of Apple Watch 4, they are quite compelling depending on what your needs are. From a fitness / voice assistant button on the wrist, getting notifications without pulling your phone out standpoint the Series 4 and later are all fantastic.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by kaonwarb on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:02PM (#39197183)
I find them exceptional for a somewhat narrow range of activities (I love going on a run or hike navigating by my Apple Watch while streaming whatever music I want in the world to my AirPods - no phone, nothing to carry), and only slightly useful for a broad range of other things (notifications, weather, etc - conveniences).
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Thlom on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @08:39AM (#39203634)
What I love best with my Apple Watch is that I can respond to Duo/Okta/BankId directly from my watch and don't have to look for my phone or pull it out of my pocket.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by atonse on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:08PM (#39197879)
I think Apple was smart to focus on Fitness and Health monitoring because that's about the only thing I've found immensely useful with my watch.

Apart from that, yesterday I just played Pickleball with a guy who used his apple watch to keep score. It was a little odd at times but seemed like a cool use.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by freeone3000 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:52PM (#39197079)
If you want a very small cell phone on your wrist, they are good at that. I’m nit sure what they’re good for , but they can be that.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Twisell on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:40PM (#39196936)
The watch first 1-3 generations were clearly "so so".
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jedberg on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:30PM (#39197471)
> When is the last time they launched a "so so" product?

All of them! The first version of the iPhone, iPad, iPod, watch, AirPods...

They all had similar reviews. "Seems like a tech preview, not really ready for general use, too expensive", etc.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by fossuser on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:36PM (#39197552)
Yeah - the first one is always at the edge of what's possible with the hardware capabilities at the time of launch at the quality level Apple demands. Then usually they refine it and end up defining the category.

The idea of 'spatial computing' or a heads up display that augments your vision and gives you eye tracking input to manipulate UIs in your visual field seems clearer superior to looking at little glass displays (meta agrees). If you can project out a future where that hardware becomes better and better it's a pretty powerful interface paradigm.

Eye tracking as an interface for this can get pretty close to telepathy if done well.

I ordered one - it's the sort of thing you really have to play with yourself imo.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jamespo on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:33PM (#39197515)
First iPod and iPad were fine.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jedberg on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:41PM (#39197607)
The first iPod's wheel would break and skip all the time. And so would the hard drive. And the OS was really simple, and the syncing was terrible.

The first iPad was ok only because it truly was "just a bigger iPhone". But they didn't really make features that were unique to the iPad and took advantage of its bigger screen for a few versions afterwards.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jamespo on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:43PM (#39197639)
The os was simple, it played music, that's it?
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jedberg on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:47PM (#39197682)
It did, but finding your song wasn't easy when you had 1000s on the device.

I would say the main function of an iPod OS is finding what you want to play, not actually playing it.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by hollandheese on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:09PM (#39199789)
> It did, but finding your song wasn't easy when you had 1000s on the device.

It was extremely easy if you tagged your mp3s properly.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by actionfromafar on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @06:07AM (#39202393)
Way back then it also competed against actual cassette and CD Walkmans. So just playing was a big part of it.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by fossuser on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:37PM (#39197567)
The first iPod had a wheel that physically moved and would get dirt and stuff stuck in it/have issues. The HDD would also freeze up. It was better than alternatives at the time, but it wasn't really until the click wheel it got really refined.

The first iPad was similarly expensive, thick and underpowered. It wasn't until a couple generations in that it was good.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by jamespo on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:39PM (#39197590)
They were both significantly better than alternatives and didn't cost 7x as much as this does vs meta quest 3.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by lambdasquirrel on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:47PM (#39197005)
So-so in what way? This product is clearly a toy. Which is to say that it is genuinely new. Maybe like how the Apple II was when it first came out. PCs were quite expensive back then too, if I remember correctly. This really will take time. All the important technological things were toys before they became tools.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by leoc on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:07PM (#39197867)
Watch was cute but fussy and a little pointless when it first came out, and only gradually became really compelling.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by outofpaper on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:46PM (#39196999)
Newton and to a much much lesser extent the first iPod and iPhone. But really the Newton while a product that I love and a super profitable line was the last time Apple created something that had so many rough edges.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:35PM (#39196867)
Tim Apple reportedly overrode the design team on launching it prematurely relative to their typical standards in order to enter the market and begin iterating before waiting too long. It’s the first new product category made under his leadership and he’s eyeing retirement, as context.

Btw, don’t forget visionOS 2.0 is just 18 weeks away. (Source: WWDC is every June and every platform gets a version bump, as we saw with watchOS launching in April then getting a 2.0 immediately after at WWDC.)

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by zmmmmm on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:42PM (#39196962)
> It’s the first new product category made under his leadership and he’s eyeing retirement, as context

I've been wondering how much this is part of the context here. He may feel some pressure that he hasn't really launched a new major product category from scratch in all his time as CEO and if this has been running 10 years as a project now, that it would be a blemish on his legacy to not get it out the door before he leaves. Perhaps without him there it would even be binned which would be even more pressure to deliver it.

Contrary to all that he really seems a bit ambivalent about the device himself, having never allowed himself to be seen publicly using it.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by whynotminot on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:07PM (#39197872)
This all feels like so much projection.

As far as I can tell Tim Cook has never pretended to be a product guy. He seems perfectly comfortable being what he is: a ruthless operations guru bent on efficiency. In every profile I’ve ever read he’s not really the one making hard product decisions, and seems content to leave that to others better suited for it.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @01:15AM (#39200586)
The decision to ship Vision Pro before the design team considered it ready/good enough was his decision. That's more a product decision than an operations one. But yeah otherwise he is reportedly hands-off and disengaged from internal product demos including of the Vision Pro.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by threeseed on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:58PM (#39197143)
Apple Watch, HomePod, AppleTV+, Apple News+, AirPods.

And I would argue the M-series CPU are pretty major as well.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:01PM (#39197177)
Apple Watch began before he became CEO, it wasn't under his direction. He just continued the existing initiative.

Wikipedia's citation that the Watch began in 2011 after Steve's death is incorrect. It began in 2010 under Steve's direction after the acquisition of Bob Messerschmidt's Rare Light, which brought hearth rate monitoring tech to Apple. Messerschmidt was assigned a team by Steve. Don't blindly trust Wikipedia, folks...

As for the others I just meant platform products, none of those have their own OS until homeOS later this year. None of them defined new product categories for Apple - for instance the AirPods were an iteration on EarPods, not a new product category. Apple was already shipping a home speaker product before HomePod, which was an iterative product without its own software platform for developers. M-series is iterative tech, not a new product category. The Motorola ROKR wasn't an Apple product. But sure HomePod is perhaps Tim Apple's one original new product category before Vision if the 2006 Apple Hi-Fi counts as a distinct product category.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by threeseed on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:28PM (#39197458)
Discounting genuinely new products because Apple made them nearly 20 years ago seems a bit ridiculous.

No one would call the iPhone an existing product just because Apple shipped the iTunes collaboration phone with Motorola.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by Wingy on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:38PM (#39196902)
The watch is a new product category under his leadership isn't it?
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by BOOSTERHIDROGEN on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:42PM (#39196958)
Watch still under Steve, put it in other way, it's last product under his supervision.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by george_perez on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:48PM (#39197017)
Doesn’t look like it.

> Ive began dreaming about an Apple watch just after CEO Steve Jobs’ death in October 2011. He soon brought the idea to Dye and a small group of others in the design studio.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/the-apple-watch/

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:34PM (#39197528)
That is incorrect, or rather, misleading - maybe Ive didn't join the project until 2011, sure, but it began in 2010. Ive didn't lead all design work yet in 2011, he was still just a VP.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by pulisse on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:52PM (#39197073)
AirPods, too.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:45PM (#39197654)
AirPods weren't a new product category, they were an iteration of the Apple EarPods which looked the same, had the same remote features, etc.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by kstrauser on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @07:24PM (#39198008)
I highly disagree about that, especially for the Pros with ANC and spatial audio. EarPods were nice wired earphones. AirPods seem like way more of a leap than just EarPods-but-wireless.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:14PM (#39198436)
If those features defined new product categories, they wouldn't have replaced existing AirPods with "3rd generation" (non-pro) AirPods that have spatial audio and ANC in the upcoming 4th generation. They're iterative features on an existing product category.
Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by crooked-v on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:56PM (#39197118)
> don’t forget visionOS 2.0 is just 18 weeks away

Source?

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by tcmart14 on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @12:25AM (#39200290)
Its speculation, but probably reasonable speculation. At WWDC, I think almost every OS version gets an announcement of a major version bump. They will announce the next macOS major version, iOS major version, etc. So it is totally reasonable to suspect they will announce the next major version of visionOS.

Edit: But since it is still so new, it could not be until WWDC 2025 that visionOS 2.0 gets announced.

Re:Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset yet Is Just a G... by wahnfrieden on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @01:13AM (#39200575)
watchOS 1.0 launched in April and got a 2.0 in June that same year

it'll be a beta