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Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Glawen on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:54AM (#37249485)
off topic, but is Türkiye the new english spelling for Turkey ?
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by kevinstubbs on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:58AM (#37249563)
At least in the UN (and the spelling is pushed by Turkish tourism too). Not sure about adoption beyond that, especially outside of Turkey. Personally don't see myself adopting the new spelling for a while.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102596510/turkey-changes-nam...

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Glawen on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:02AM (#37249619)
I don't see it adopting it myself, because that would also means pronouncing it differently. Anyway, good luck with qwerty keyboard. I'm using azerty, so it is not so painful.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by BitwiseFool on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:07AM (#37249690)
My understanding was that the name would be pronounced the same way, but as a native English speaker I don't even know what the umlaut does to the sound of the u. So I'm not even sure how the pronunciation would actually change.

In any event, if the Turkish government wants me to stop using "Turkey" I'm more than happy to call it Anatolia instead.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by asimovfan on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:17AM (#37249818)
Not all of Turkey is Anatolia though
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by catlover76 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:34AM (#37250058)
But Turks aren't originally from Anatolia anyways, and basically the only thing "Turkish" about the country/people is the language. :T
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Thrymr on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:43PM (#37251152)
Is anyone "originally" from anywhere they live now, really, except maybe East Africa (at some point in time)? Anglo-Saxons came from the continent, "Americans" from Europe, Africa and elsewhere, Native Americans from Asia, etc.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by aiilns on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:21PM (#37251787)
Greeks.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Tagbert on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:22PM (#37252674)
Dorian Greeks migrated into Mycenae in the early Bronze Age.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by catlover76 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @09:19PM (#37256687)
Yes, very true (and something I like to remind people who like to display ethnic and/or racial pride and talk about "heritage" etc)
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by paint on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:00PM (#37250459)
It is pronounced differently to the English "Turkey". For once, it has three syllables. Anatolia is the name of the large peninsula encapsulating most of Turkey, not the country itself.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by evujumenuk on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:22PM (#37251804)
I have solved this conundrum by calling the country "Türkiye", while calling the bird… also "Türkiye". Thus ensuring symmetry.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:35PM (#37252008)
> My understanding was that the name would be pronounced the same way

No, part of the rationale for the change is to reflect the different pronunciation (Türkiye) has three syllables

> but as a native English speaker I don’t even know what the umlaut does to the sound of the u.

While there is a change to the first vowel sound, and I think an even more subtle change to the second, the biggest difference is the existence of the third syllable, which is pretty evident from the spelling, even to most native English speakers.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by dghughes on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:41PM (#37252103)
I beleive it is pronounced Took-ee-ayy. It's Turkish for Turkey so I can't see why non-Turks would be using that pronunciation.

I don't say Spain in Spanish i.e. "Espanya" (phonetically) I just say Spain.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Cyph0n on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:57PM (#37253793)
Not a Turkish speaker, but I believe it’s closer to tur-kee-yeh. It’s pronounced almost the same in Arabic.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by yardshop on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:14PM (#37250675)
You can type a u umlaut on a qwerty keyboard (and maybe many others) by holding down Alt, and typing 129 on the numeric keypad: ü

That works on Windows at least, don't know about other systems.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by simiones on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:04PM (#37251504)
So one would actually have to remember to call the country TALT-129kyie?
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:43PM (#37252134)
You can type an umlaut (over a u) on a US-International QWERTY keyboard by typing a double quote followed by a u.

And if you are using Windows with, say, US-English QWERTY as your default keyboard layout, its easy to add US-International and switch between them with ctrl-shift; they have the same layout (so your keycaps are still write), but some of the punctuation becomes dead keys that can function either for the punctuation or diacriticals depending on the following keypress.

Because the relationship between the punctuation and the diacriticals they work for is mostly visually intuitive, I find it a lot easier than memorizing Alt-key codes. Especially when using keyboards that don’t have a separate numeric keyboard in the first place like small laptops, and big laptops with relatively powerful dGPUs (the former because of total space available, the latter because they use more space for venting).

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by stuff4ben on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:44PM (#37252160)
On Macs, you can long-press the "u" key and you'll see options for û ü ù ú ū. There's a number underneath, so just long press "u" and then type the number for the character you want.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by CameronNemo on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:23AM (#37249894)
The US embassy also uses the spelling.

https://tr.usembassy.gov/

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by readbeard on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:49PM (#37251238)
The US State Department website has a note about that here:

https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/turkey/

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by psychphysic on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:13AM (#37249764)
There is a vague movement to adopt countries preferred names and pronunciation.

It's fairly patchy ultimately.

Beijing/Peking, Mumbai/Bombay, Kyiv/Kiev, Czechia/Czech Republic.

Foods seem unaffected funnily enough Peking Duck, Bombay Mix, Chicken Kiev.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ch4s3 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:23AM (#37249891)
Not that it's a big deal, but Türkiye uses the ü, and autocorrect and spell checkers don't seem to have made the switch yet so it does require some extra effort to type or copy paste. It seem like the use of Mumbai hasn't even been universally adopted in India, so I'd expect Türkiye to take some time.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by tgv on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:11PM (#37250630)
> spell checkers don't seem to have made the switch

Right click > Add to dictionary

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ch4s3 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:51PM (#37251289)
Yeah, sure that works in the specific machine I happen to be using but this doesn't come up enough for me to remember to do it everywhere.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by readthenotes1 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:32PM (#37250938)
Iirc, Mumbai,Bangalaru, etc. were changes to decolonize, not to change the name foreigners called it as much as to change the name resonance called it.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by lucretian on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:58AM (#37249546)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61671913

possibly a populist move by erdogan, depending on who you ask.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by throwaway0208 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:22AM (#37249879)
It's the new official spelling, but with an umlaut it doesn't qualify as an english spelling.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by dizhn on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:10PM (#37250617)
Türkiye is Turkey in Turkish. The country isn't saying this word is now English but rather call us by our Turkish name because sharing a name with a bird is worse than being run by an islamist dictator. (While calling India 'Hindistan' and calling the bird 'hindi')
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by cossatot on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:59AM (#37249572)
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by calderknight on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:09AM (#37249727)
I don't think English has letters with multiple dots above them.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by retrac on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:21AM (#37249873)
It does. The English I was taught in school, includes the diaeresis as part of the writing system. Words like coördinate, reëngage, Boötes, are spelled as I just spelled them.

I don't adhere to it. It is dated, perhaps even archaic. But it is still the preferred spelling in some style guides, and it is still used in some publications.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by lovich on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:26AM (#37249936)
It’s used to signal when you have a pair of the same letters but the second has a different pronunciation.

So “deer” has two e’s but no umlaut because they make the same sound but “coördinate” has the umlaut since the second o is a new sound.

I personally like them and wish they would come back if only as a small push back against the horrific ambiguity that is the English language

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by meepmorp on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:54PM (#37255599)
> It’s used to signal when you have a pair of the same letters but the second has a different pronunciation.

That's a somewhat naïve take.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by simiones on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:39AM (#37261036)
As far as I understand, it's actually used to indicate a hiatus instead of a diphtong. E.g. naïvety is meant to indicate that aï are part of different syllables and shouldn't be pronounced in the same syllable, just like the oö in coördinate.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by rob74 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:09PM (#37250599)
The catch is that the diaeresis in Türkiye does something completely different that the diaeresis you mentioned, so actually it would be less confusing if English didn't have it at all.

...then again, even some Germans are using the diaeresis for this purpose, such as this guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Ho%C3%ABcker - and you can't blame him, because usually "oe" is a transliteration of "ö", and then his name would mean "hump" (as in camel's hump).

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by crazygringo on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:15PM (#37251691)
Where did you go to school, if you don't mind me asking? I didn't realize that was ever something that was taught -- I'm curious if it's a geographic thing?

The only place I've ever seen the diaeresis used like that is in the New Yorker.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by retrac on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:34PM (#37251992)
Ontario, Canada, in the '90s. We weren't required to use it but there was a brief lesson on co-operate, cooperate, coöperate, etc. being valid variants. Maybe Mr. B. aspired to have students who would one day read The New Yorker.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by Symbiote on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:26AM (#37249944)
How naïve.

But that's the only not-foreign not-name word from the list I've seen written with the ¨ in Britain. I have see Chloë and Zoë written with it too.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_terms_spelle...

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by stvltvs on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:26AM (#37249941)
It does, but for a different reason, to mark when two vowels are pronounced separately. Like naïve. Not often used, but the New Yorker does.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by mkl95 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:22AM (#37249877)
naïve
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by wahnfrieden on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:11PM (#37250635)
never picked up an issue of the new yorker?
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by calderknight on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:12PM (#37252544)
I've read them on the internet yes. Good point. Different usage of the dots though.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by wahnfrieden on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:47PM (#37252975)
the "e" in "karaoke" also has a different usage in english. so what
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ChatGTP on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:08AM (#37249708)
yes
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by baggy_trough on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:42AM (#37250188)
Of course not, but some people would like it to be so.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by causi on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:44AM (#37250207)
It might be the new globally-used spelling but I don't think you can call anything with an umlaut the "English spelling". You have to use an alt+ code to even get the character from an English keyboard.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by mabbo on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:02PM (#37250495)
The country has officially asked that it be referred to and spelled that way.

If a friend asked me to refer to them with a different name, I'd sure look like a jerk if I made a point to not do so, even though I know it's their preference. Just the same, I try to remember that the country formerly spelled Turkey is now spelled Türkiye.

Perhaps someday they'll say it doesn't matter, or they prefer the old way. Today isn't that day yet.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by tgv on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:10PM (#37250607)
OTOH, a country is not a conscious, communicating being that's sensitive about its name. The name change follows a decision by a few civil servants and politicians.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by TheRealPomax on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:28PM (#37252750)
Yes, that's what "the country" means, it's shorthand for "the government of the country".
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by readthenotes1 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:30PM (#37250916)
So what do you call that big country just west of France?

Exonyms have been a thing for longer than I can remember....

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ayhanfuat on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:44PM (#37251156)
Meanwhile, that friend is calling everyone whatever he likes. England: İngiltere, Germany: Almanya, London: Londra, Munich: Münih.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by nurettin on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:57PM (#37253787)
That's fine, his English friend isn't going to start calling Germany: Deutschland anytime soon.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ayhanfuat on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:43AM (#37259811)
His English friend is not the one making childish requests so that's not relevant.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by nurettin on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:16AM (#37272603)
It was relevant one post ago. Now the topic shifted to politics like a good twitter shitpost.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by mensetmanusman on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:47PM (#37251214)
Or, the friend is ignorant of the constraints upon asking an entity without the tools (alphabet) to bend to their will.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by earthling8118 on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:10PM (#37251611)
Yeah, it's an unreasonable request. I don't even know how to type that symbol. It isn't on my keyboard. Sure, I could probably find a way to type it or copy it from somewhere else. Or I could just keep calling it Turkey and move on.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by dryrun on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:59PM (#37253808)
I find this take so odd. I presume your are from the US, which is a country with so many cultures flowing in, but from your post you will not accept that a friend of yours may have accents in their name, or that a dish may have accents in it, and will forever misspell them.

When I have friends like that (well, my brother too), I make a point of typing it the way it's supposed to be written, out of courtesy and fun and proudness, like I'm clever enough to type any character I want with my keyboard, because I master it and I master other languages. The day I'll learn how to type Chinese characters fluently, I'll be so happy ! Not to boast, but it will mean I unlocked a whole new world!

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by mensetmanusman on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:24PM (#37255336)
That’s great of you, the burden might be different when asking hundreds of millions of people.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ShrigmaMale on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:20PM (#37257613)
yes actually? America literally doesn't use any accents so we write stuff without them. we basically never even use them on cafe, resume, words of that sort. like japanese has no L sound. so (if google translate is to be believed) their exonym for Lithuania is pronounced "Ritoania", and uses an entirely different alphabet.

if you want to learn to use endonyms for countries cool! but most people aren't interested in that level of effort for the whole world. there are ten thousand other things that occupy their minds, every one jockeying for a spot, and this being a passion of yours doesn't change that.

idk why you think there should be any different rules from this, except the general sense of anti-Americanism that seems to pervade this discussion.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by simiones on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:37AM (#37261007)
In human languages, each culture develops its own name for each different culture they interact with. That name is a separate concept to how the other culture calls themselves. Sometimes, the two names are relatively similar (France / France, though pronounced slightly differently), other times its completely different (Germany / Deutschland, Hungarian / Magyarország). This is a simple fact about how human languages work. The country called Turkey in English calls themselves Türkiye in their own language. They have asked certain international bodies to refer to them by that name as well, and those bodies have of course accepted. But those bodies do not "speak English", and there isn't any expectation that speakers of English should change their language as well.

Now, there is nothing wrong with calling it Türkiye in your own everyday speech, but it is not any kind of sign of good manners - it's simply a matter of personal taste. You'd still probably call their language "Turkish", while they call it "Türkçe", and the people living there "Turks" or "Turkish people", when they call themselves "Türkler", and even if you didn't you'd probably use your own grammar to conjugate these words as necessary etc.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by ShrigmaMale on Thursday August 24, 2023 @01:56PM (#37252339)
fine. then every spanish speaker should call my country The United States of America, not Los Estados Unidos. be equal about this or don't even start.

also: i will under no circumstances use a name that my keyboard cannot type with standard American english. no one besides the new yorker uses an umlaut in our language.

Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by CatWChainsaw on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:06PM (#37263301)
Yeah, be equal, call Bangkok by its full name.
Re:New ancient ape from Türkiye challenges the story of huma... by readbeard on Thursday August 24, 2023 @12:45PM (#37251176)
No. Erdoğan started advocating for a switch to Türkiye a couple of years ago, and the UN recently adopted the Turkish spelling. The US State Department uses both spellings, while asserting (sensibly) that Türkiye should be used in "formal and diplomatic contexts." [0] English Wikipedia still uses the established English spelling. [1]

Some Turks I know seem to think this whole thing was mostly cooked up as a distraction from other issues that have come up or worsened under Erdoğan's leadership.

[0] https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/turkey/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey