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Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dtech on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:54AM (#36810781)
Which is another weird thing. US declared the space race "won" when they got to the moon, despite being behind in all other milestones like sattelite and manned space flight.

If SU got to the moon first US would've ignored it too and said Mars was the real target...

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by thrashh on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:13AM (#36810896)
No, the battle was an economic one, never a science one. Let’s face it: both the US and Soviet Union had extremely capable scientists.

But the entire Cold War was about which economic system was the “best” and in the end, the Soviet Union frankly ran out of money and could not even test their Buran spacecraft before launching it to see it crash.

Running out of money is how you lose this battle.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dijit on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:37AM (#36811057)
> the Soviet Union frankly ran out of money

To be perfectly fair, this was at least partly the result of the immeasurably expensive clean up of Chernobyl.

Estimates vary but the most recent numbers put it at about $700 Billion.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by badpun on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:54AM (#36811186)
SU was economically unviable long before Chernobyl disaster. It was so mismanaged it had large-scale famines, for God's sake.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by p_l on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:17AM (#36811362)
Honestly, it would have had them either way. You can't change the shitshow that was Imperial Russia that easily, and tsarist legacy was hamstringing any reform (for example in the decision to continue the systems of secret police and prison camps - neither was Communist invention)

However they did fuckup in many areas in the economy, something that was recognised internally at least by some - as seen by multiple attempts at reforms.

Also, one can't discount the unbelievably favourable position of the USA at the end of WW2 when analysing this (in comparison, Soviets started with a worse position than many would believe, because Imperial Russia really wasn't well off)

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dijit on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:57AM (#36811607)
A lot of people forget that the reason there even was an uprising was because the country was so poor and the upper class was seen as decadent and out of touch.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by foobarian on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:43AM (#36813124)
Honestly they also seemed to have gotten really unlucky with their last tsar. Makes you wonder how things would have played out if they got someone exceptionally good instead of Nicholas II.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kwhitefoot on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:22AM (#36814121)
> how things would have played out if they got someone exceptionally good instead of Nicholas II.

It's not just the man or woman at the top who make the country work. Peter the Great and Catherine the Great tried to modernize. But the nobility put up a lot of resistance or simply didn't turn up for committee meetings.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by badpun on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:33AM (#36811828)
> Honestly, it would have had them either way.

The pre-soviet famines were of natural causes - crop failures due to droughts etc. After soviets took over the country, these were still ocurring, but were dwarfed by man-made famines, caused by idiotic economic policies (mainly by forced collectivization, which decimated productivity).

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by Attrecomet on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:15AM (#36812081)
That certainly sounds like bs. The pre-soviet famines' causes were directly the repressive, backward, exploitative and simply evil system that existed and forced the peasants to starve so the nobility and select bourgeois upper class members co-opted into the system could live lives of decadence.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by xhkkffbf on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:28AM (#36814932)
Yes. Read Timothy Snyder's _Bloodlands_ for a deeper understanding of just how the peasants were starved. Or watch the movie "Mr. Jones".
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by skinnymuch on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:20AM (#36813418)
Everything is man made when it’s “them” (communists). And just part of society and natural when things happen in America’s capitalism. The US doesn’t even have universal health care. I don’t know the exact death figures, but it’s not pretty. All deaths that could be prevented from some basic collectivist attitude. Instead of forced individualism.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by throwaway6734 on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:01AM (#36813857)
The soviets were instrumental in starting WW2. They have no one to blame but themselves
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by xhkkffbf on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:27AM (#36814918)
Seth McMeekin's book, _Stalin's War_, is a great way to understand just how they did it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/apr/06/stalins-war-by...

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by p_l on Saturday July 22, 2023 @08:16PM (#36831305)
Oh, I'm not claiming they didn't.

It's just that usually in such comparisons you get to see USA, and USA was an extreme outlier that makes comparison useless in my opinion.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by allarm on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:58AM (#36812315)
I don’t think they had famines around 1986. Long before that - yes.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by coldtea on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:41AM (#36813112)
Only way back, when the US had the "Great Depression" and millions of starving people as well.

And in the USSRs case, it was from an ecomony that had just had gotten into large scale industrial production, after having been way behind under the Czars, and after a major war, a revolution, and several years of civil war.

If anything, they did better than expected. Even more so given that they had an inexperienced government, external pressure from unfriendly western countries, and had to prepare for future wars that were already breeding (and luckily the did it just in time for WWII).

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bitcurious on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:45AM (#36813663)
> Only way back, when the US had the "Great Depression" and millions of starving people as well.

The US had millions of hungry people. At the peak of the Great Depression, deaths from starvation peaked at a (still terrible) ~110k. Under Soviet rule, an order of magnitude more, actually millions, perished unnecessarily from hunger just in Ukraine.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-ushistory2os2xmaster/...

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by coldtea on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:33AM (#36814265)
In much worse conditions, with much worse winters, and from a much worse starting point, in a much more under-industrialized society.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by skinnymuch on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:23AM (#36813462)
the US and a lot of the capitalist world had the Great Depression and more. Are those “natural”? The country is forcing a recession now and causing poorer people to get squeezed dry.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by sien on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:07AM (#36812388)
Wikipedia puts it at $US 68Bn

The initial emergency response, together with later decontamination of the environment, involved more than 500,000 personnel and cost an estimated 18 billion roubles—roughly US $68 billion in 2019, adjusted for inflation.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dijit on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:14AM (#36812451)
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by ecopoesis on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:43AM (#36813125)
$68 billion is a lot, but it also only three Big Digs ($22 billion). If Chernobyl killed the Soviet economy it was because it was in already terrible shape.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by FreshStart on Saturday July 22, 2023 @02:47AM (#36823928)
So jets were under the resource curse after the 70s.iran- Iraq war and resulting oil surplus killed them.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by gambiting on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:15AM (#36811350)
>>could not even test their Buran spacecraft before launching it to see it crash.

Wait, what? Buran did launch for a test flight, in a fully remote-controlled flight(something that the US Shuttle couldn't do at the time), and landed successfully. It never crashed.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by kevin_thibedeau on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:33AM (#36813562)
Buran never went through an equivalent of the shuttle approach and landing tests because the An-225 wasn't ready. It was never certain it would fly back successfully on reentry.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by mcpackieh on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:37AM (#36814315)
When is anything ever certain? The first shuttle flights flew with only two people who had ejection seats, clearly NASA wasn't certain of success.

I've been watching MIT 16.885J recently, it's a lecture series from 2005 about the space shuttle with lectures given about numerous shuttle subsystems by people who actually worked on them, administrators and lead engineers. Several of them have expressed reservations about the systems in the shuttles. Fear that the hydraulic system was a ticking timebomb that should be replaced with electromechanic systems, recounting an early fear that the Colombia breakup had been caused by a landing gear explosion, etc. These guys weren't certain of much, everybody knew it was a risky project.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL35721A60B7B57386

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by iJohnDoe on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:49PM (#36817863)
The Brian shuttle orbited the Earth twice in 206 minutes of flight, travelling 83,707 kilometres (52,013 mi) in 3 hours and 25 minutes (0.14 flight days). On its return, it performed an automated landing on the shuttle runway at Baikonur Cosmodrome.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by arethuza on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:44PM (#36819447)
Oh how I wish there had be a "Brian the space shuttle" :-)
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by yodelshady on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:08AM (#36812044)
> Running out of money is how you lose this battle.

True, but I honestly find it hard to conceptualise how that relates to military spending.

You think the Soviet population would be better fed if MIC scientists had paid more attention to food production? Unlikely, it seems if anything in the Soviet Union that has a negative correlation. And the factories are, famously, dual use in capitalist or communist systems, so without the military demand, it seems more likely their population wouldn't have engineered products at all.

By design, they lacked a middle class. I think it's worth stating: any system that can produce a > Mach 2 fighter is incredibly advanced, that that society was serfs < 100 years prior also incredible. But the products - military or civil - were consistently less rounded, more slapdash, than US fare. We could therefore infer - again, since the factories and talent are dual-use - the middle class drove product quality in both the civil market, and ultimately the military one.

They also, of course, didn't trade much with the richest economy in the world - unlike, say, recent China. It certainly seems to be a famous nail in the Soviet coffin that people did know regular civilian life in the West was better, and they couldn't get a slice of that pie.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by mnky9800n on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:12AM (#36813351)
You literally did what the commenter said Americans would do which is you moved the goal post. Buran was never designed to go to the moon.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by tcmart14 on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:36AM (#36815048)
The Buran did have a successful test flight November 15th 1988 and didn't crash..... Even landed itself.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by mjamesaustin on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:13AM (#36810894)
There's a show about that exact scenario! For All Mankind.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by arethuza on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:06AM (#36811279)
I love For All Mankind - largely because it portrays the future I used to think we were going to have when I was a kid in the 1970s.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by WorldMaker on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:08PM (#36817290)
Season 2 captured so much of my 1980s kid "this is the space future I was promised". At the time my uncle even worked on projects at Nasa and would describe some of the ideals of the space shuttle program in a way that For All Mankind Season 2 captured that boring reality never quite did, especially after the Challenger disaster.

(Plus, spoilers: Project Orion in that season! Which is one of the things that I can point to where FAM's timeline is maybe worse than ours, as it is fun to bring up every time people suggest they can't watch FAM because it is too "utopian". Project Orion was in part cancelled because of advances in cancer research, especially with respect to radiation. The FAM timeline seems to be spending so much on aerospace at the expense of cancer research among other things, and things like the 80s and 90s fights against tobacco seem almost non-existent in that timeline. People are still smoking nearly as much in that timeline's 80s as they did in the 50s. There are no signs of the near ubiquitous anti-tobacco PSAs of our timeline's 80s and 90s. I don't know how much the writers are intentionally working in such trade-offs, versus just trying to maintain storylines and aesthetics across its decade jumps, but it makes a ton of sense that there would be such trade-offs. Similarly, there are signs that civil rights are still generally worse in that timeline than ours, especially gay rights and feminism.)

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by cscurmudgeon on Friday July 21, 2023 @03:25AM (#36810991)
You can give all the space battles to the Soviets, the war was lost by them though lol.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by coldtea on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:42AM (#36813120)
Yeah, that's why for decades later and until now the US couldn't even send somebody to the space station and had to borrow their tech, lol
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by cscurmudgeon on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:56AM (#36815362)
> Yeah, that's why for decades later ...

Do you live in a universe where 2020 are closer to 1960s than 1990s? Must be great to live in such a world.

> US couldn't even send somebody to the space station and had to borrow their tech

Anyways, I wouldn't call Russian tech, Soviet tech. Remember the Soviet Union died in 1991, we can't call 2010s tech Soviet lol.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by krapp on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:43AM (#36815156)
Yes, the space race was entirely about propaganda. That's why we planted an American flag on the moon.

But looking at the big picture, the Soviet Union was far superior to the US in terms of space technology and scientific accomplishments up to that point. As with World War 2, the US showed up late to the game, spiked the football and just declared itself the winner.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by jayd16 on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:51PM (#36821040)
Races are won at the end, not the beginning or middle.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by dtech on Saturday July 22, 2023 @02:46PM (#36828679)
Extremely convenient the end was determined during the race.