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Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:27AM (#35751657)
The more I use ChatGPT (including 4.0 version, available with Plus subscription) the more I think these "Studies" and articles are simply made up.

For my experience is terrible for any question I ask: - if it doesn't know well a person it simply makes up things - if I ask code examples or scripts, most of the time they are wrong, I need to fix them, they contain obsolete syntax etc... - if I'm asking a question, I'm expecting being asked for more context if the subject is not clear, instead it starts spitting text without even realising I asked a completely different thing etc...

I could go on for hours with other examples, but I'm seriously not finding it useful

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AshamedCaptain on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:37AM (#35751703)
Your experience matches mine. Everything I have asked is usually _horribly_ wrong, and even asking things in a different order makes it completely change its responses, even for otherwise binary questions. Even the "snippet" part of a Google search with the same prompt normally contains enough information to contradict it...

I'll also note that when there was hype around Stable Diffusion, one of the images shared around was that of an astronaut riding a horse. If you actually run Stable Diffusion with its default tuning and ask for that prompt, you will get 6 images, of which 5 of them are outright disasters (horses with 6 legs and going downhill from there), and then the 6th image, the only one which could possibly pass as a decent result, is the one that everyone shared and reshared and hyped. Usually other prompts give even more terrible results where there are 0 passable images without extensive tuning. Stable Diffusion now is acknowledged to actually be crap --despite the hype-- and I supposedly need to try the next best thing, whatever that is. But I find myself facing the same situation with ChatGPT 3.5, and now with ChatGPT 4, despite the fact there is no "next best thing".

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by LewisVerstappen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:47AM (#35751746)
okay that’s just because you’re not good at using the models.

Obviously you have to play around with them and figure out how to prompt & tune them.

Once you do that, you can get pretty amazing results.

I make do a bunch of social media graphics and stable diffusion + midjourney has been insanely useful.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AshamedCaptain on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:54AM (#35751776)
> okay that’s just because you’re not good at using the models.

You literally cannot respond with "you are holding it wrong" specially when I'm claiming that even for the popular _example prompts_ SD authors used they had to hand-pick the best random result over a sea of extremely shitty images.

And even in the original paper they disclaim it by saying "oh, our model is just bad at limbs". No, it's not just bad at limbs. They just happened to try examples where it could particularly show how terrible it is at limbs (i.e. spider legged horses and the like). But in truth, it's just bad at everything.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by LewisVerstappen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:23AM (#35751929)
Nope. You literally just tried out one prompt and saw one good image and several bad ones and just shook your fist at the computer and gave up.

I'll repeat myself. You have to play around with the models and learn how to use it (just like you have to do for everything) .

> But in truth, it's just bad at everything

Thousands of people (including myself) have had the complete opposite result and have gotten amazing pictures. You can play around with the finetuning with different models from civitai and get completely different art styles too.

Like, this is so dumb I don't even know how to respond lol.

You're like some guy who got a computer for the first time and couldn't figure out how to open the web browser, so he just dismissed it as useless.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AshamedCaptain on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:36AM (#35751985)
I don't think you understand the point. Your claims that "all of this needs extensive tuning and hand-holding and picking results" do not help your argument, they help _mine_.

Most egregious if you are even doing more tuning and cherry picking that the authors of the models are doing, which you definitely are.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by SanderNL on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:52PM (#35757614)
It sounds magic to you because you are unskilled. Like people using the mouse for the first time. The things he talks about are very basic, very easy.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:19AM (#35753096)
I would rather just learn to draw than constantly write different text until it looks good

Drawing isn't hard, you know

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by sebzim4500 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:34AM (#35753233)
I could spend 20,000 hours trying to learn to draw and I would still be far worse than what I could generate with Stable Diffusion + Control Net + etc.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753487)
I'm fairly sure if you can best stable diffusion after 7 years of daily 8h investment into drawing :)
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by johnnyyyy on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:48PM (#35755264)
I doubt you would be better than someone who would use Stable Diffusion for 7 years. and I don’t even include the technological advancements in the next 7 years.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:50PM (#35759554)
I don't think writing SD prompts compounds like actually make art from scratch does. It's kind of inherent right? Because one is derivative (with a bunch of computer science) and one is from people. You can be cynical and say all art is derivative, I guess.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Sunhold on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:22AM (#35753127)
Learning to draw at the level of what Stable Diffusion can generate would take thousands of hours of practice, and the individual drawings would take hours.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:00AM (#35753519)
But if you do learn, you can then render photorealistic image with nothing but pencil and paper instead of being reliant on a beefy computer running a blackbox model trained at enormous cost :)

SD will never compare to the power of pencil and paper imo. Drawing is an essential skill for any visual artist not just for mechanics but for developing style, taste, and true understanding of the world around you visually.

I recommend Freehand Figure Drawing for Illustrators as a good starting point (along with some beginner art lessons). It won't take 1k hours before you see results. It's also fun!

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by dale_glass on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:59PM (#35754724)
You can optimize that: feed SD a sketch, get a finished painting as a result.

It works surprisingly well.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Dylan16807 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:23PM (#35758277)
> But if you do learn, you can then render photorealistic image with nothing but pencil and paper instead of being reliant on a beefy computer running a blackbox model trained at enormous cost :)

Why do I want to avoid that reliance, other than to be smug to the nerds? And as far as general self-satisfaction, let's assume I would rather master a different skill with the time it would take.

Especially because that training cost only has to be done once, so on a per-person basis it beats learning to draw by a lot.

If you said something about flexibility and specificity of what you can create I could get behind that, but I think the arguments you're making are very unconvincing.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:26PM (#35757859)
Having spent several orders of magnitude more time working on drawing than with SD, I’ll say “Drawing isn’t hard for some people”.

If drawing was that easy, no one would worry about disruption from AI image generators, because everyone who wanted images would be knocking them out by hand, not paying people for them, so there’d be nothing to disrupt.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:29PM (#35757888)
Anyone can learn to draw, and it's not hard. If you want to create, you can and will learn to draw.

Therefore, I would say most people hyped for SD and friends are the capitalists and consumers of the art world - not the creators.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:42PM (#35757975)
> Anyone can learn to draw, and it's not hard.

Repeating an assertion more times doesn’t make it true.

> If you want to create, you can and will learn to draw.

“Drawing”, even when it comes to imagery, is far from the only form of creation, and, even if it were, will is not determinative of capacity.

But, yeah, I mean, people have said similar things about basically evey new means of creation ever.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:17PM (#35758239)
SD isn't creation imo. I have used it + followed stuff made with it, and I don't care how much people rebrand it as prompt engineering. Its consumption. Just because some imagination is involved in the query doesn't make it creation.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:13PM (#35758840)
> SD isn't creation imo. I have used it + followed stuff made with it, and I don't care how much people rebrand it as prompt engineering. Its consumption. Just because some imagination is involved in the query doesn't make it creation.

No, the fact that something is made with it makes it creation. Imagination makes it creative, on top of being creation.

The problem I see here is you are trying to insert your moral/aesthetic judgement of the quality/value of the mechanism/process of creation into the objective description of whether creation is happening, probably because you have subscribed to a worldview which valorizes creation and denigrates consumption so accepting something you don’t want valorized as “creation” is incompatible with that worldview.

You can just say you don't like Generative AI and wish people wouldn’t use it. You don’t need to declare that creating things with it isn’t creation to try to mask your (valid as any other) aesthetic preference in a very silly circumlocution designed to resemble an objective description, albeit a patently self-contradictory one.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:35PM (#35759243)
I mean I actually do think AI art isn't actually art - philosophically. It's not being snooty it's based on years of studying and thinking about art from a philosophical perspective.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by throwaway675309 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:13PM (#35758211)
The best artists are the ones that adapt to both, generating an initial image and using it as scaffolding to paint over. Drawing and using a diffusion model are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by kyleyeats on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:11AM (#35751868)
This is like throwing your hammer down in frustration over each nail taking more than one swing.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ChatGTP on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:27AM (#35751948)
I guess the difference is hammers are logical, simple tools to use with a known use case. They’re fairly hard to use incorrectly, although it does take some practice I’ll admit.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by cubefox on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:06AM (#35752149)
"It's bad at everything" ... bad by what standards? Just a few years ago it would have been regarded as unbelievable science fiction that a model with such capabilities would soon be available. As soon as they are here, people stop being impressed. But the objective impressiveness of a technology is determined by how unlikely it was regarded in the past, not by how impressed people are now. People get used to things pretty quickly.

Besides, there are models that are much more capable than Stable Diffusion. The best one currently seems to be Midjourney V5.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by wizzwizz4 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:40AM (#35753299)
> Just a few years ago it would have been regarded as unbelievable science fiction that a model with such capabilities would soon be available.

No, it wouldn't have – not to people in the know. We just didn't have powerful enough computers back in the 90s. Sure, the techniques we've got now are better, but 90s algorithms (with modern supercomputers) can get you most of the way.

Transformers are awesome, but they're not that much of a stretch from 90s technology. GANs are… ridiculously obvious, in hindsight, and people have been doing similar things since the dawn of AI; I imagine the people who came up with the idea were pretty confident of its capabilities even before they tested them.

Both these kinds of system – and neural-net-based systems in general – are based around mimicry. Their inability to draw limbs, or to tell the truth, or count, are fundamental to how they function, and iterative improvement isn't going to fix them.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by cubefox on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:48PM (#35755272)
> No, it wouldn't have – not to people in the know. We just didn't have powerful enough computers back in the 90s.

I'm not talking about the 90s. I'm talking about April 29, 2020.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by wizzwizz4 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:08PM (#35755480)
What's special about that day? That's after the algorithms were developed, models and drivers were built, and most of these behaviours were discovered. I've got fairly-photorealistic "AI-generated" photos on my laptop timestamped September 2019, and that was before I started learning how it all worked.

If you're talking about popular awareness of GPT-style autocomplete, then I agree. If you're talking about academic awareness of what these things can and can't do, we've had that for a while.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by cubefox on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:06PM (#35756035)
What photorealistic AI generated image? In September 2019 this must have been a GAN face. I admit those are impressive, but incredibly limited compared to todays text to image models. If you look at an iPhone from 2019, or a car, or a videogame ... they all still look about the same today.

Three years ago there was nothing remotely as impressive as modern GPT style or text to image models. Basically nobody predicted what was about to happen. The only exception I know is Scott Alexander [1]. I don't know about any similar predictions from the experts, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/02/19/gpt-2-as-step-toward-g...

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by wizzwizz4 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:52PM (#35757608)
> In September 2019 this must have been a GAN face.

Well, yes (that file was), but actually no. StyleGAN1's public release was February 2019, and it's capable of far more than just faces.

> Three years ago there was nothing remotely as impressive as modern GPT style

I predicted that! Albeit, not publicly. (My predictions claimed it would have certain limitations; I can show that those still exist in GPT-4, but nobody on Hacker News seems to understand when I try to communicate it.¹)

> or text to image models.

Artbreeder (then called Ganbreeder) existed in early 2020, and it didn't take me by surprise when it came out. It parameterises the output of the model by mapping sliders to regions of the latent space; quite an obvious thing to do, if you want to try getting fine-grained control over the output. (A 2015 paper built on this technique: https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.06576)

I was using spaCy back in 2017–2018-time. It represents sentences as vectors, that you can do stuff like cosine similarity on.

If I'd been more interested in the field back then, I could have put two and two together, and realised you could train a net on labelled images (with supervised learning) to map a spaCy model's space to StyleGAN's, which would be a text-to-image model. It was very much imaginable back before April of 2020; a wealthy non-researcher hobbyist could've made one, using off-the-shelf tools.

If I were better at literature searches, I could probably find you an example of someone who'd done that, or something like it!

---

¹: See e.g. here: they tell me GPT-4 can translate more than just explicitly-specified meaning, and the "evidence" doesn't even manage that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530316 (They also think translating the title of a game is the same as translating the game, for some reason; that confusion was probably my fault.)

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AshamedCaptain on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:42PM (#35755803)
> Just a few years ago it would have been regarded as unbelievable science fiction that a model with such capabilities would soon be available. As soon as they are here, people stop being impressed.

I don't know. I've had chatbots for decades before "a few years ago", so I have never been particularly impressed. I would say that for someone who was already impressed with that you could practically describe a landscape in plain old 2000s Google Images and get a result, SD feels like just an incremental improvement over it -- the ability to create very surreal-looking 'melanges', at the cost of it almost always generating non-sensical ones. And also add that Google Images is much easier to use than SD...

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:19PM (#35757821)
> You literally cannot respond with "you are holding it wrong" specially when I'm claiming that even for the popular _example prompts_ SD authors used they had to hand-pick the best random result over a sea of extremely shitty images.

I do a lot of my SD with a fixed seed and 1-image batches, once you know the specific model you are using getting decent pictures isn't hard, and zeroing in on a specific vision is easier with a fixed seed. Once I am happy with it, I might do multiple images without a fixed seed using the final prompt to see if I get something better

If you are using a web interface that only use the base SD models and don’t allow negative prompts, yes, its harder (negative prompts and in particular good, model specific, negative embeddings are an SD superpower.)

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by smusamashah on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:16AM (#35751892)
Agree with GPT but with StableDiffusion you are only partially correct. Visit /r/StableDiffusion to see the stuff people are making. People share prompt, seed, model settings etc and you can reproduce the exact same thing.

I do agree that it's bad at following the prompt exactly. It will produce most of the things you mentioned in the prompt but not necessarily in the same fashion you asked for. I don't agree that produced images are mostly shitty, just visit that subreddit.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AshamedCaptain on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:28AM (#35751953)
> Agree with GPT but with StableDiffusion you are only partially correct. Visit /r/StableDiffusion to see the stuff people are making. People share prompt, seed, model settings etc and you can reproduce the exact same thing.

This doesn't really say anything, because it's just survivor bias. The entire purpose of that site is to show the successes. Most people get disasters every single day, they just don't upload them to the site. Even if I try the same prompt I will get a disaster image, as long as I don't use e.g., exactly the same random seed they happened to use. This is not even "prompt engineering". It's just outright playing with the dice.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Sunhold on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:41AM (#35752009)
Why do you think it matters if five out of six images are failures? If the sixth is a success, you have your image. The tool has worked. Glancing over a few failed generations is certainly far less effort than making the image from scratch.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by bamboozled on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:23AM (#35752649)
Because it's a departure from the more logical and rational computing people have come to expect from "computers". For many people, it's unusual to have "fuzzy computing" become popular again.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by smusamashah on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:36PM (#35756905)
You are wrong. Sort that sub by new to get a glimpse of ugly stuff. With SD you can't ask it for "very beautiful image of X" and actually get one. You must fine tune your prompt to get the right asthetics (photo, cinematic, specific artist etc) and also choose a better model. The base model that stable Diffusion released is not very good. Visit https://civitai.com to get a glimpse of how good the models have become.

I madeots of wallpapers in bulk recently with a good prompt and model. None of the images, all via random seeds, was shitty by any measure. Only images I ended up deleting had some usual Ai artifacts I couldn't stand.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by SanderNL on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:57PM (#35757654)
Have you actually tried using these tools beyond starting it up and swinging your fist in frustration?

I have thousands upon thousands of beautiful images, each one more inspiring than the other and I did nothing or very close to nothing. You are belittling this amazing tech so much it sounds like you are scared of it. What’s it to you?

Have you ever lived in a time where it was even remotely possible to go from “astronaut on horse” and get even 1 decent result, in seconds?

I can’t even.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by LewisVerstappen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:19AM (#35751912)
Uhh, I think you're replying to the wrong person?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by smusamashah on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753476)
My bad, I miss clicked somewhere.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hartator on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:19PM (#35754933)
Highest post on /r/StableDiffusion:

> You need to agree to share your contact informations to access this model

All of this does feel like another scam where the tech is exaggerated and side hustles are actually the endgame.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by sorokod on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:06AM (#35751839)
Kindest thing one could say is that there is massive cherry picking going on which is borderline dishonest.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by shanebellone on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:24AM (#35751933)
"massive cherry picking"

I think the coined phrase is "prompt engineering".

Side note, where's the eye roll emoji hiding?

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by whateveracct on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:18AM (#35753086)
reminds me of the BTC pivot from "decentralized currency" to "store of value"

goalposts

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by BoorishBears on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:25PM (#35756217)
If you understand what an LLM is, chain of thought isn't something you eye roll at.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by shanebellone on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:08PM (#35757737)
If you understood what an LLM is not, you might..
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by BoorishBears on Sunday April 30, 2023 @01:30AM (#35759906)
Right, another low effort deflection into the "It (is/is not) Intelligent" diversion.

You can sit in that tarpit and duke it out with fanatics and doomsayers while patting yourself on the back for "real zingers"... or you can just learn to use the tool and extract your own value from it.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by shanebellone on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:33AM (#35761278)
"Right, another low effort deflection into the "It (is/is not) Intelligent" diversion."

Straw man.

"You can sit in that tarpit and duke it out with fanatics and doomsayers while patting yourself on the back for "real zingers"... or you can just learn to use the tool and extract your own value from it."

GPT offers zero value which reflects my position. Though, it does perform some neat tricks.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by BoorishBears on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:45PM (#35764288)
If it's a straw man feel free elaborate on your incomplete commentary with "If you knew what it's not".

GPT offers you zero value because you don't know how to use it, so you're limited to cheap tricks.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by shanebellone on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:47AM (#35771088)
"GPT offers you zero value because you don't know how to use it, so you're limited to cheap tricks."

GPT offers me zero value because its internal processes are opaque. It's fundamentally unsuitable for business.

Personally, I have no use for it either. Its output is inferior to mine.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by mensetmanusman on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753490)
Even with cherry pickings it’s still amazing a digital ‘plant’ was invented that has any cherries at all.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by modeless on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:10PM (#35754247)
If the cherry picking is less effort than painting a picture from scratch then I wouldn't say it's dishonest.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by sorokod on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:47PM (#35754592)
It is fine if one says that they tried various prompt tweaks and out of twenty attempts (for example) here is the the best.

To present the best prompt/response while not disclosing that it is a result of trial and error is a different thing altogether.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by pmoriarty on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:36AM (#35751987)
You should try Midjourney. It is far more likely than SD to give great results on the first try, even when you're not good at writing prompts.

Advanced users of both Midjourney and SD can get some stellar results out of them. Some of that is due to trial and error, and going through dozens or hundreds of images to pick the best ones, but being adept at crafting prompts and using other features of the programs plays a big role too.

Know your tools.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by candyman on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:42AM (#35752016)
I agree that the nature of the algorithm allows it to generate false results which would not be acceptable in many domains. But I think there is tremendous potential to improve what you might call the "baseline" of what information and diagnosis is available. There are great doctors out there for sure but in many places there are close to zero doctors, or worse, bad doctors. While it's a very complex domain there are much simpler parts of it. A child with a cancer tumor in their brain is a very different case than someone who has a rash and a headache. There's a great deal of regulation as well that will come into play here so it's going to take a while. I know Google has a whole LLM that is using only healthcare data that they have been working on for a while.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jasondigitized on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:02AM (#35752941)
This is the exact opposite experience I have had with code. While it isn’t perfect it’s ability to scaffold code is a huge productivity booster. Example. Tailwind. “How can I highlight a parent container when I hover on any of its children using Tailwind”. JavaScript “How can I merge two JavaScript objects and remove any duplicates”.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by lm28469 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:26AM (#35753162)
Yeah it's very good at answering basic questions which have been answered 50+ times on stack overflow &co that's for sure.

I use it for my side projects, for tech I have no experience in, and it works very well, because I know what I want, I know that it is possible and I just need it to vomit the boilerplate to save me 5 google searches

For my day job it's next to useless, and if your day job can already be automated by chatgpt I have bad news for you

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by 2devnull on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:07PM (#35754215)
“if your day job can already be automated by chatgpt”

If they can automate the work of a physician, who exactly is safe? Low skill labor, maybe, for awhile.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by meroes on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:33PM (#35754453)
The remote physician misdiagnosed my X-ray last time. That physician is easily automated out and possibly for the benefit of the patients not just costs. The other staff involved, like the NP, X-ray tech, assistant, are fine for a lot longer.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by 2devnull on Sunday April 30, 2023 @10:10AM (#35762700)
“are fine for a lot longer.”

My point is that “a longer” implies “when” rather than “if”. Everyone is replaceable, in the long run.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by lm28469 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:31PM (#35756277)
> If they can automate the work of a physician, who exactly is safe?

But they can't, it's like saying you're 15cl stove top italian coffe maker is replacing a starbucks tier coffee machine

If the only metric you account for is "it makes coffee" boolean then sure, if you actually implement it you'll notice things falling apart in the first 10 minutes.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by logifail on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:45AM (#35753344)
> JavaScript “How can I merge two JavaScript objects and remove any duplicates”

(This is a genuine question) Is it hard to find a solution to that question on the web by using a search engine?

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ericmcer on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:07PM (#35754217)
It would be difficult to search because that is a weird question. If you asked a more practical question like "merge two arrays and remove duplicate values" you would find tons of exact results.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by catlifeonmars on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:41PM (#35754534)
* * *
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by smusamashah on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:55AM (#35753467)
Agree with GPT but with StableDiffusion you are only partially correct. Visit /r/StableDiffusion to see the stuff people are making. People share prompt, seed, model settings etc and you can reproduce the exact same thing.

I do agree that it's bad at following the prompt exactly. It will produce most of the things you mentioned in the prompt but not necessarily in the same fashion you asked for. I don't agree that produced images are mostly shitty, just visit that subreddit.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Sharlin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:14PM (#35754268)
> I don't agree that produced images are mostly shitty, just visit that subreddit.

SD is definitely very good in the right hands, and it’s a little unfair to expect to be able to get instant good results without any skill. It’s honestly pretty crazy that we now have things like ChatGPT and SD that – and people are already calling them crap because they don’t work perfectly and their productive use actually requires some skill!

But r/StableDiffusion, or any public gallery, is obviously one giant selection effect. 99.9% of attempts could be crap and the 0.1% would still be enough to fill a subreddit.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by smusamashah on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:26PM (#35756819)
Sort by new and you will get the idea of crap that people post on a public forum. Default sorting only shows you the popular/better content.

To give you a general idea of what percentage can be good images: I recently made a lots of wallpapers to cycle through daily using SD. I found a good prompt, a good model, and let it generate bunch of images continuously for few hours.

None of the images were shitty (they were all random seeds), only images I discarded had artifacts I didn't like or couldn't keep my eyes away from. With SD you can't just expect to give a prompt "beautiful landscape" and expect it to give you a beautiful landscape. It won't. You shall get shitty images and might get a few pleasing ones. You must tune your prompt to get good results.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by throwaway675309 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:08PM (#35758170)
"Stable Diffusion now is acknowledged to actually be crap if you don't take the time to learn how to use it properly."

Fixed that for you.

If you have very little technical aptitude, patience, and willingness to learn, it would be better for you to stick with some thing a little more newbie friendly such as mid journey.

However, loading a proper model such as 526, realistic Vision, or ReV, using control net, and guiding a prompt to where you want it to go while making changes using inpainting/img2img/etc can result in stunning images.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by sabellito on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:39AM (#35751713)
* * *
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:55AM (#35751784)
I did not read this particular article, I was explaining that from my own experience, all these articles telling how great ChatGPT is seem to be made up because my experience (and from what I read I'm not alone) is completely opposite. Maybe it's not able to solve the type of questions I ask? Fine. But it's not how ChatGPT is presented most of the times.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by raincole on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:10AM (#35751861)
> I did not read this particular article

It costs you zero dollar to not post an irrelavant comment then. I really wonder how you justify this "I didn't read the article, but I have a very, very strong opinion (straight up calling it a made-up) on it" behavior. The internet is rotting people's brains I guess.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:40AM (#35752008)
I've now read the article and I'm not changing my opinion. ChatGPT can do some things very well and people tend to hype those things and claim it's better than humans rather than recognising its limits. And again, you are still missing the point of my comment despite having read it, so I'm out of patience. Maybe try to ask ChatGPT to explain what I meant :)
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:20AM (#35751917)
And it costs zero to you to ignore my comment especially if you don't understand it. Other people seem to have understood what I meant and posted constructive responses, you didn't, but honestly it's not my problem.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by raincole on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:34AM (#35751978)
Ah, I see. You just don't realize that your comment is not relavent to the original article... (of course not, because you didn't read it)
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by notahacker on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:45AM (#35752027)
To be fair, the opinion is thoroughly justified by the article, which might have been more honestly titled Physicians' Reddit comments shorter than ChatGPT responses; relative accuracy unknown...
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Sunhold on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:04AM (#35752956)
Not really. A team of licensed health care professional rated "the quality of information provided".
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by notahacker on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:47AM (#35753372)
And unsurprisingly, the average 52 word Reddit comments [isolated from the context of other comments] didn't provide very much information compared with a much more verbose chatbot. The relevance of the ChatGPT response to the actual patient condition remains unknown.

This is relevant to the real world of primary care only if your sole access to a medical professional is Reddit...

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jprete on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:07AM (#35751847)
Their first example of a good ChatGPT answer - about bleach in the eye - feels like copypasted SEOified liability-proof WebMD copy. Every medical site has that crap and it’s useless once you have a moderately difficult question.

N.B. as well: If someone thinks they have bleach in their _eye_ and can still open their eyes enough to write a Reddit post, much less read through ChatGPT’s extremely long answer, they’re almost certainly fine.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:35PM (#35756890)
> Is there something about the premise of the study or its method that you feel are not good?

Yes. Down in the limitations section of the study (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...):

> evaluators did not assess the chatbot responses for accuracy or fabricated information

That is a... significant issue with the methodology of the study.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jstanley on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:32AM (#35751688)
If you tell it it's wrong, it often comes up with a better answer on the second try.

It seems like you could maybe automate that. Let it spit out its first draft of an answer, have the framework tell it "please correct the errors" and then let it have another go and only present the second attempt to the user.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by simmerup on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:36AM (#35751697)
But how do you know it's wrong until a human tries the output
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by mirekrusin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:46AM (#35751744)
You don't need to, you always tell it it's wrong.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by notahacker on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:14AM (#35751882)
But if you always tell it it's wrong, it will sometimes come up with worse answers on the second try. Which means you still need to know whether the first answer is correct or not (or neither of them)

I'm reminded particularly of a screenshot of someone gaslighting ChatGPT into repeatedly apologising and providing different suggestions for Neo's favourite pizza topping, despite it answering correctly that the Matrix did not specify his favourite pizza topping first time round, but it applies equally to non-ridiculous questions

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jstanley on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:42AM (#35753319)
The idea isn't that you tell it to simply change what it wrote on the first try. The idea is that having a first draft to work with allows it to rewrite a better version.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by notahacker on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753489)
This technique works fine if you're creating new iterations of creative work, or have a specific thing you want it to fix

It's not much use if ChatGPT gives you a diagnosis of your symptoms which may or may not be accurate.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:11AM (#35753642)
Great example!

What if someone refers to x part of their body incorrectly? What if they're not able to think clearly due to y reasons and tell it something completely wrong?

An LLM is wholly inappropriate.

As for its "bedside manner"/how polite or friendly it is, that's meaningless if it isn't good at what it does. Some of the best docs/profs I've known have been very detached and seemingly unfriendly, but I'll be damned if they weren't great at what they do. Give me the stern and grumpy doc that knows what they're doing over the cocksure LLM that can't reason.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:08AM (#35753599)
That's assuming it doesn't just enter a fail state and keep providing the same answer again and again and again, despite explaining what about the answer is wrong.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ChatGTP on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:36AM (#35751699)
Is there a bot writing these comments, I’d say everyone who used ChatGPT 4 had to know this by now and takes this into account ?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:52AM (#35751764)
the point is: my job is not to train a deep learning model, my job is to write code. If I already know the answer, I'm not asking the question. If I can recognise something is wrong, it means I should have done that task by myself. Can it do certain things faster than me? Sure! Can it do them correctly? Most of the time it can't and if I have to spend my time to check every output, the time I saved is already wasted again.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by birdyrooster on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:27AM (#35753826)
The whole point of computing is to have it do tasks for us and here you are advocating that we should do tasks by ourselves. I hate everything about this.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by asimpletune on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:47AM (#35751745)
I always tell people that if they want learn more about the hype to just try and use it to do actual work. Almost no one ever does, but when they do it becomes almost immediately clear how limited it is and what it is and isn’t good for.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Abroszka on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:00AM (#35751803)
I use it almost every day for work. It has mostly replaced Google for me. A lot more convenient. Now whenever I use Google it's more or less just to look up the address of a specific site.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by kaba0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:39AM (#35752330)
Well, google has become utterly bad at its job — I fail to find sites I remember verbatim quotes from, so expert google-usage is no longer a possibility. It will gladly leave out any of your important keywords, even if you add quotes around it, absolutely useless. Sure, the average person will search for “how old is X” not “x age”, but for more complex queries the first form is not a good fit.

That said, I can’t really use ChatGPT as a search engine, but I did plug it into a self-hosted telegram bot and I do ask it some basic questions from time to time - telegram is a good UI for it.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Abroszka on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:03AM (#35752947)
Yeah, I agree. Google did a lot of work to make ChatGPT useful. It's clearly worse than it used to be.

I usually need someone to explain something to me. And I used Google before to land on a site where I could find the explanation (e.g. how to use a library). ChatGPT can explain most things I need and I can skip Google and the other sites. But it's indeed not a search engine, if you need factual information then your best bet is to find the documentations, articles, databases, etc.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by robby_w_g on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:59AM (#35753505)
I tried phind after seeing it linked here a few times. It felt like it was a slower Google search with extra steps. The sources it used for the answers were the sources I would have found by searching "site:stackoverflow.com [my question]". It did distill the information decently well, but I'm skeptical it properly pulls in the context that the comment replies to the question/answers provides
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:03AM (#35753556)
Given how much it hallucinates, that's one very scary echo chamber to be in where you trust info reinterpreted by an algorithm instead of just reading it yourself. Yikes.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Abroszka on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:25PM (#35755642)
It rarely hallucinates for me. But you need to know what it's capable of and how to use it to work effectively with it. You can't use it well if you think it's an all knowing sentient AI.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:47PM (#35755844)
How would you know how frequently it hallucinates if it has "mostly replaced Google" for you? Are you fact-checking all your queries? This is a very strange self-inflicted echo chamber.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Abroszka on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:03PM (#35755993)
Because the code it generates is working? The recipes it gave to me are also delicious and I don't even have to read someone's life story on a blog before getting to the recipe.

Not really sure why you are so fixated on the echo chamber thing. We are on the internet! The biggest echo chamber humanity has ever built.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:58PM (#35756569)
Functional or delicious ≠ accurate to the source material.

Because it's a layer of abstraction, mate. One known to get things wrong, because it's an LLM. If I write a post about Richard Stallman's opinions on paedophilia and Jeffrey Epstein (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Controversies), and it incorrectly tells you that Stallman associated directly with Epstein, or is a paedophile himself, that would not be accurate to the source.

At least with a Google search result you can go more directly to the source. If the scientific method is getting to the truth, why on Earth would you put an obstacle in front of it?

If someone tells me x, am I going to believe them? No. So, why would I believe an LLM if it isn't presenting sources to me that are 1:1 in accuracy to the information it presents to me?

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Kamq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:21PM (#35757321)
> Functional or delicious ≠ accurate to the source material.

Alright, but most people aren't looking for accuracy relative to the source material.

They're looking for code that does a specific thing, or food that tastes a certain way.

> If the scientific method is getting to the truth, why on Earth would you put an obstacle in front of it?

Possibly because they aren't doing science. They may be doing software development or baking instead.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:33PM (#35757428)
Yup, and it hallucinates plenty with dev too, even over basic stuff like an NGINX config.

Given that it hallucinates in particular over measurements/specs/stats, I'd be extremely sceptical of taking a recipe from it, whether that's generated and original or coming from a known source.

Baking requires very specific measurements, the slightest mistake and it won't turn out well in most cases. Again, why go via an LLM and not a search engine to the actual source? It makes zero sense, especially if it only returns text and you can't see what the recipe produces if it's an existing thing.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Kamq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:13PM (#35757774)
> Again, why go via an LLM and not a search engine to the actual source?

I believe the argument presented (possibly in a separate thread) was that search engines have degraded to the point where what they show you is worse than LLM output.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by Dylan16807 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:28PM (#35758311)
There's no such thing as "the actual source" for how to make a type of food.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jstanley on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:55AM (#35751785)
It's good at writing. It's not good at knowing facts. If you give it all the relevant facts and ask it to do a writeup in a certain style it does a better first draft than a typical human, and in a lot less time.

If you ask it what the facts are, it just gives you a load of nonsense.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by asgerhb on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:06AM (#35760872)
Even this is not always the case. I gave it a very rough draft and it actually made my structure worse, while at the same time using imprecise language. It looked like the correct style, but the content was not salvageable.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:27AM (#35751946)
I've had ChatGPT build a whole website for a project for me (HTML, CSS, backend code for signups, login, payments)
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by bamboozled on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:28AM (#35752684)
I guess I've done similar things with Django in a very short ammount of itme.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:48AM (#35753382)
Even just typing what I had it write for me, and a typing speed well above average, would take many times as long, and I've done enough sites over the years to know I would not keep up that kind of typing speed, because I'd need to check things and go back and forth.

Put another way: People who don't pick up these tools and learn how to be effective at them will increasingly be at a significant performance disadvantage from people at their skill level who do pick them up.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:05AM (#35753571)
What you did is nothing a template/boilerplate couldn't otherwise provide.

You're trusting that it is secure and sensible in its output too.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:13AM (#35753680)
You know what it wrote for me then? No, it's not. It filled in custom logic per specifications.

But even if it was just boilerplate, I'd have had to apply it, and that takes time to do. I've started dozens of projects over the 28 years in this industry - I have a very good idea of how long it takes both me and a typical developer to do what I've had it do, and it's far faster.

And no, I'm not trusting it to be "secure or sensible" at all, no more than I trust a developer. But overall the quality of what it has produced all of which I've reviewed the same way I would with code delivered by a developer, has overall been of good quality. That does not mean free of bugs, any more than human developers write flawless code on first try, but it does mean I've had it write cleaner code than a whole lot of people I've worked with who'd take many times as long and cost a hell of a lot more.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:27AM (#35753834)
Well, post the source code and prompts in a GitHub repo then. Let's have a proper look at the code it output.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:27AM (#35760365)
Maybe once I'm done actually using it to speed up the project I'm working on. There's no benefit to me in slowing down to put effort into trying to convince you of something you can easily figure out for yourself if you actually wanted to.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by asimpletune on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:20PM (#35754315)
Yeah, IDK, of all the things an AI can do for us, code generation seems to be the one I'm actually least interested in. It's anecdotes like this that sort reinforce that feeling.

I would much rather have a "rubber ducky" that I can try and explain my thought process to, and then it can try to question me and poke holes in my thinking. I think my expectations on AI are pretty realistic and I don't really expect it to ever be ever *thinking* in the way I associate with the word, not with today's SoA at least. In that respect I'm just not particularly interested in it generating code, but that also may come down to our individual preferences for how we write code.

At any rate, my issue is that it fails at the "rubber ducky" position I mentioned earlier. It's not really able to follow a train of thought that I have, in a reasonably competent way, and every time I have tried to do work with it I just end up feeling silly for anthropomorphizing something that I know isn't really, even if for a second. Just my $0.02 though, I'm glad so many people seem to like it and am happy for them.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:22AM (#35760348)
This is a bit like picking up a hammer and complaining it works poorly as a screwdriver when a screwdriver is what you want. Sure, if you want it to do something it's not suited for, then don't use it.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:02AM (#35753542)
Specify the work that you know it excels at first-hand, then list projects/tasks you have completed using it.

How do you know if they don't? Do you expect them to report back to a throwaway comment on HN? The sentiment is shifting on HN, that much is clear, just like it shifted with crypto.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by afro88 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:05AM (#35751832)
Is it everyone else that's wrong or....

> if it doesn't know well a person it simply makes up things

Asking it for factual information about a subject can be a bit hit/miss depending on the subject. Better to use bing chat, because it will use info from the web to inform the response

> if I ask code examples or scripts, most of the time they are wrong, I need to fix them, they contain obsolete syntax etc...

How wrong? More wrong than having a junior or mid level developer contributing code?

Think about it a different way: you just gained an assistant developer that writes mostly correct code in seconds. Big time saver.

Also: if you want it to use a particular code style etc, give it few shot examples.

> if I'm asking a question, I'm expecting being asked for more context if the subject is not clear

Then you need to tell it that in you prompt: "if the subject isn't clear, ask me some clarifying questions. Don't respond with your answer until I have answered your clarifying questions first". Or: "ask me 3 clarifying questions before answering" to force it to "consider" how well it "knows" the subject first.

ChatGPT isn't an AI in the sci fi sense of the word. It's a language model that needs to be prompted the right way to get the results you want. You will get a feel for that the more you use it.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by raincole on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:30AM (#35751962)
And even if ChatGPT is always 100% wrong with code, I still failed to see how it is relevant to this particular article.

The article compares verified responses on r/AskDocs (yeah, a subreddit) and those from ChatGPT. That's it. How is its coding compatibility even remotely relevant? It's like saying "Excel is bad in editing photos, so it must be a bad spreadsheet software as well."

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by rafaelero on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:51PM (#35759021)
Indeed. I don't understand why these types of comments get so many interactions. It makes me think they are relevant but on second inspection they are mostly unrelated grievances.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by isaacremuant on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:41AM (#35752011)
> Is it everyone else that's wrong or....

This is disingenuous. OP is right. ChatGPT is mostly inaccurate and contextless by nature.

It always produces something confidently so it's very easy to think it's the right answer.

Now, it can be extremely useful for any task that can be easily verifiable and you don't know the syntax, how to approach something, etc. Because any decent software developer can use it as part of the prototyping or brainstorming and get wherever they want to go in coordination with ChatGPT.

What you can't do is assume it's "the expert". You are the expert and you're the intelligent one and the chat generates potential useful things.

That's on verifiable stuff. On other things it can be so laughably bad it's impressive how much "everyone" (as in articles, hype, HN users who downvote criticism as being from luddites) pushes it as something that is not: an AI that can think and be relied upon and any inacuracy will just "get better with time" aa opposed to "the model and also the politics around it" doesn't have a path to get to that idealisation that is being sold.

It's a tool, but it's usually sold as better than it is, like in this case, presumably with the intent of relying upon it to save cost in some key integration point. The problem is that it mostly won't work and comparing it to bad humans or worse integrations doesn't show the fundamental low ceiling that it has.

I think people with authoritarian mindsets (and I don't mind Left or right but inherent trust in authority) easily want this to be a source of truth they can magically use, but there's no path for that to be true. Just to appear true.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by kaba0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:36AM (#35752307)
> How wrong? More wrong than having a junior or mid level developer contributing code?

Yes. The failure mode of a human and chatgpt are nothing alike — I am far more experienced in spotting beginner mistakes in code reviews, then seemingly good, but actually illogical bullshit code generated by LLMs.

I have never had it produce non-trivial, novel code that was correct, so I mostly use it as a search engine instead.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by zmnd on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:50AM (#35753398)
Can you give an example? Have you tried asking it to generate both code and unit tests for it?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753483)
I can only conclude that both the junior and senior were inappropriate hires if people really think the output of an LLM is anything approaching that of an appropriate human being. It's saying a lot about where people work, IMO.

Either that or the problems they're solving are nothing boilerplate couldn't handle.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by jasondigitized on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:04AM (#35752960)
This. It’s ability to stub code is a huge productivity gain. Paste code. Test it. Tweak it. Done.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by 13415 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:18AM (#35751905)
To add to this, I tried to use it professionally but the answers were too general and generic. I suppose it has been prompted to put things simple, which prohibits it from saying meaningful things about certain topics. It did give one or two useful references, though.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by geonnave on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:19AM (#35751913)
My experience is completely different. I have successfully used GPT-4 to:

- write a contract for the sale of my motorcycle: put all details, names and numbers with labels on a spreadsheet, paste on the chat and ask for a contract, then edit.

- learn french: I told gpt "when I write wrong stuff in french, always let me know and teach me the correct ways". Then, after a few weeks I asked for a .csv with the stuff that he corrected so I could import into Anki, which actually worked.

- coding on a daily basis: I am learning Rust on my new job, so I ask it things all the time, it helps me a lot.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by andreagrandi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:31AM (#35751966)
Good to know it's able to do some useful stuff. In my case I mostly ask Python related questions, because it's the one I know better so I can check if the answer is right or wrong. I will try with different languages, but I will be less capable of knowing if I got a good answer or not. It may take more time, but I find the combination of Google + Stack Overflow more accurate than asking ChatGPT
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by isaacremuant on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:43AM (#35752019)
Your experience is not different from OPs. You're just ok with the mistakes or are unaware of them because you don't know how to judge them.

I both use ChatGPT to boost productivity but also see the amount of mistakes it makes and will keep making and am surprised at the extreme denial of anyone who tries to shut down criticism of the wrong type of hype (the one that sells something that is not there)

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by geonnave on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:54AM (#35752085)
Oh but it is: I find it useful. For example, I would not pay a lawyer for that contract, so having it draft me a mediocre contract is still better than having no contract.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:07AM (#35753593)
A mediocre contract can be worse than having no contract, or as bad as having no contract if it isn't actually legally binding. Yikes.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by isaacremuant on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:25PM (#35780094)
It can be much much worse if you base key decisions on the belief that you have a contract and later find out that you didn't.

Thanks for such a clear cut example for my points.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:05AM (#35753582)
Has a lawyer looked over your contract and confirmed that it is actually legally valid? Can you name said lawyer and the firm they work at?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by TrueSlacker0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:17PM (#35754289)
All you need for a bill of sale is a simple sentence saying on x date I xxx, sale vehicle xxx, with vin number xxx to xxx person. Then write the driver's license of both parties and sign. A lawyer is extreme overkill for such a simple transaction.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:22PM (#35754341)
By the same logic, a hallucinating LLM is also overkill versus just doing the simple task yourself and not needlessly adding risk to it.

The point still remains: let's see what the LLM delivered that the user actually used.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ceejayoz on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:33PM (#35756878)
> All you need for a bill of sale is a simple sentence saying on x date I xxx, sale vehicle xxx, with vin number xxx to xxx person.

If you know this, you don't need GPT.

If you don't know this, you don't have a way to assess GPT's attempts at a contract. A bill of sale is indeed simple, but there's a lot of more subtle legal issues someone might run into in life.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:23AM (#35751928)
If you expect to be able to ask it an underspecified question without context and without telling it what role it should take and how it should act, sure, that often fails entirely. It's not a productive use of ChatGPT at all.

If, on the other hand you actually put together a prompt which tells it what you expect, the results are very different.

E.g. I've experimented with "co-writing" specs for small projects with it, and I'll start with a prompt of the type "As a software architect you will read the following spec. If anything is unclear you will ask for clarification. You will also offer suggestions for how to improve. If I've left "TODO" notes in the text you will suggest what to put there." and a lot more steps, but the key element is to 1) tell it what role it should assume - you wouldn't hire someone without telling them what their job is, 2) tell it what you expect in return, and what format you want it in if applicable, 3) if you want it to ask for clarifications, either ask for it and/or tell it to follow a back and forth conversational model instead of dumping a large / full answer on you.

The precise type of prompt you should use will depend greatly on the type of conversation you want to be able to have.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by skepticATX on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:58AM (#35752467)
This type of usage is rapidly approaching a Clever Hans type of situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans.

An intelligent agent shouldn't need this type of prompting, in my opinion.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:54AM (#35753448)
Is the agent the LLM or the user who needs an LLM?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:00AM (#35753522)
It's perfectly fine if it's approaching a Clever Hans type situation as long as it's producing sufficient quality output fast enough that it's producing it faster than I can do manually.

There are many categories of usage for them, and relatively "dumb" completion and boilerplate is still hugely helpful. In fact, probably 3/4 of my use of ChatGPT are uses where I have a pretty good idea what it'll output for a given input and that is why I'm using it, because it saves me writing and adjusting boilerplate that it can produce faster. Most of the time I don't want it to be smart, I want it to reliably do almost the same as it it's done for me before, but adjusted to context in a predictable way (the reason I'll reach for it over e.g. copying something and adapting it manually).

We use far dumber agents all the time and still derive benefits from it. Sure it'd be nice if it gets smarter, but it's already saving me a tremendous amount of time.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by danenania on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:18PM (#35754930)
Yes, I think using it for code that you could write yourself fairly easily is a sweet spot since you can quickly check it over and are unlikely to be fooled by hallucinations. It can save significant time on typing out boilerplate, refreshing on api calls and type signatures, error handling, and so on.

It’s a save 15 minutes here, 20 minutes there kind of thing that can add up to hours saved over the course of a day.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:42AM (#35760424)
Exactlt.

One of my go-to examples is that I asked ChatGPT to write a DNS server. It didn't get it perfect and needed followup questions, but it 1) got it better than I could (having written a couple in the past) without spending time reading the RFCs, 2) because it's something I have done before, even though I'd have to look up docs to do it again, I could instantly tell which areas it doing the right thing, and where I needed to check specs and adjust details.

But if I didn't know how a DNS server works, on the other hand, it'd have been little help to do it that way because I'd have no idea what.it got right or not, and it's have been far more productive in that case to ask it for a step by step guide of what to do and which portions of the specs to look up.

You have to treat it as a junior:

Either give it tasks you can trivially validate and improve because you know the subject, or ask it to help condense down and explore the search space.

Don't try to get it to complete a task you don't understand how to quickly validate, because you'll waste tremendous amounts of time trying to figure out whether the answer is right.

Most of the people complaining seems to expect it to work well for the latter even when told it's not (yet, anyway) a good use.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by segh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:26AM (#35753811)
Why are people so determined to 'debunk' it? Why not try to work with it and within its limitations?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by bamboozled on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:25AM (#35752666)
I'm starting to wonder if it's just easier to actually program?

Like I know ChatGPT-4 can general a bunch of code really quickly, but is coding in python so hard that it wouldn't just be easy to write some code? It's super neat that it can do what it does, but on the other hand, modern editors with language servers are super efficient too.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by vidarh on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:55AM (#35753461)
If I want it to just write code where I know exactly what I want, I will have it write code. ChatGPT can write code and fill in things when you give it something well specified very quickly.

My point was that if you just ask it an ambiguous question it will return something that is a best guess. It's what it does. To get it to act the way the person above want it to, you need to feed it a suitable prompt first.

You don't need to write a new set of instructions every time. When I "co-write" specs with it, I cut and paste a prompt that I'm gradually refining as I see what works, and I get answers that fit the context I want. When I want it to spit out Systemd unit files, I cut and paste a prompt that works for that.

The stuff I'm using it for is stuff where I couldn't possibly produce what it spits out as productively not because it's hard but because even typing well above average typing speed I couldn't possibly type that fast.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by sebzim4500 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:36PM (#35755752)
If you have years of experience programming and ten minutes of experience 'prompt engineering' then programming is probably easier, yes.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:55AM (#35752441)
My experience is the same, and yet I am not surprised that it still scores better than the average physician.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by broast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:10AM (#35753016)
Your experience matches mine other than I still find it extremely useful regardless of errors
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by allisdust on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:10AM (#35753018)
My experience has been polar opposite with GPT4. As long as I structure my thoughts and present it with what needs to be done - not like a product manager but like a development lead, it spits out stuff that works on first try. It also writes code with a lot of best practices baked in (like better error handling, comments, descriptive names, variable initialization).

Some times this presenting of problem to it means I spend anywhere from 5-10 mins actually writing the points down that describes the requirement - which would result in a working component/module (UI/backend).

We have been trialing GPT4 in my company and unfortunately almost everyone's experience is more on the lines of yours than mine. I know it shouldn't, but honestly it frustrates me a lot when I see people complain that it doesn't work :). It definitely works but it depends on the problem domain and inputs. Often people forget that it has no other context about the problem than just the input you are providing. It pays to be descriptive.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by wouldbecouldbe on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:55AM (#35753464)
Code yeah if you know it's pitfalls you can get it correct pretty fast. But I just don;t believe it gives better answers doctors, it makes silly mistakes that signal it doesn't understand things deeply.

I only believe if they actually trained chatgpt on those type of tests specifically.

Not the actualy dynamic nature of dealing with patients & lawsuits.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by mensetmanusman on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:56AM (#35753474)
I wonder which personality profiles interact with it best. Probably some function of which abstract layers people start with when thinking.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by croes on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753477)
How do you do that for patients?
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by stainablesteel on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:03AM (#35753554)
there's definitely an art to asking the questions, likely because of subtle differences in how a lot of people communicate in writing.

NLP can recognize alt accounts of individuals on places like HN and reddit, but a person would probably need to study the comments pretty hard to determine the same thing, its not natural for people imo but it seems to be the foremost aspect of any kind of model that's processing human writing.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by catlifeonmars on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:30PM (#35754428)
LLMs currently have this problem where they will give confident-sounding responses to prompts where they are lacking enough context. Humans are built to read that as accuracy. It’s wholly a human interface problem.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by rep_lodsb on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:14PM (#35755532)
Some humans find that style of response infuriating, but apparently we are in the minority.

It's almost like "AI hacking people's brains" turned out to happen accidentally, and a huge number of supposedly smart people are getting turned into mindless enthusiasts by nothing more than computer generated bullshit.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by kosh2 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:18AM (#35760338)
Agreed. It would be great if it could ask questions about missing context but maybe language models are bad for that task. Maybe one needs a second run, evaluate the answer and then make it look for info that could improve the answer.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by SanderNL on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:48PM (#35757576)
I’d say keep quiet and even join them in their incessant whining, meanwhile building your skills. Use this advantage.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by SkyMarshal on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:32AM (#35753220)
I’ve only asked GPT4 a few niche questions on subjects of interest to me, so I can’t really judge it yet. But so far its answers can’t compete with Wikipedia. However, it seems good at drilling down and doing followup questions that build on the prior questions, which is interesting. I can see that natural language give-and-take back-and-forth being useful for things like early education, diagnosing non-emergency patients, troubleshooting home PC problems with non-computerphiles, etc.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:01AM (#35753525)
It hallucinates a lot. Any time statistics or specifications are involved, don't trust it whatsoever.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by usrusr on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:36AM (#35753253)
It quite literally writes whatever sounds about right. Which is certainly very impressive if you happen to assess by exactly the same metric... It's more artificial overconfidence than artificial intelligence
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by hammyhavoc on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:48AM (#35753384)
Yes. It is inappropriate for most things. It's an LLM. It predicts the next word. People are throwing it at all kinds of problems that are not only inappropriate, but their ability to assess the quality of its output is questionable.

E.g., lots of HN users claim to use it for dev or learning new programming languages. Given the frequency of hallucination and their Dunning-Kruger complexes in full-effect, they don't know when it's teaching bad information or functions that don't exist.

It's an LLM. Not an AGI.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by amelius on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:13PM (#35754864)
For us to get a better understanding of how well this tech works I suggest ChatGPT becomes integrated in HN in this way: it generates 1 response per comment; the responses written by the AI are clearly marked as such (e.g. different color); the user can turn them off; these comments can be up/down voted and the votes can be seen by any user; of course users can reply to the generated comments.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by ziml77 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:10PM (#35756678)
I've seen a lot of positivity on the output of ChatGPT for coding tasks in my workplace. And it does seem to have some use in that area. But there is just no way in hell it's replacing a human in its current state.

If you ask it for boilerplate or for something that's a basic combination of things its seen before, it can give you something decent, possibly even useable as-is. But as soon as you step into more novel territory, forget it.

There was one case where I wanted it to add an async method to an interface as a way of seeing if it "understood" the limitations of covariant type parameters in C# with regards to Task<T>. It did not. I replied explaining the issue and it actually did come back with a solution, but it wasn't a good solution. I told it very specifically that I wanted it to instead create a second interface for holding the async method. It did that but made the original mistake despite my message about covariance still being within the context fed back in for generating this response. I corrected it again, but the output from that ended up being so stupid I stopped trying.

And at no point was it actually doing something that's very important when given tasks that are not precisely specified: ask me questions back. This seems equally likely to be a problem for one of these language models replacing a doctor. It doesn't request more context to better answer questions so the only way to know it needs more is if you already know enough to be able to recognize that the output doesn't make sense. It basically ends up working like a search engine that can't actually give you sources.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by danielbln on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:17AM (#35761201)
You should try the model not in isolation, but hooked up to search so it stuffs the context with current and verifiable data. Check out phind.com.
Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by SilkRoadie on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:13PM (#35757254)
I use it at work and it clearly has strengths and weaknesses. My two use cases are initial research and generating prototype code.

I find it very helpful to ask a series of questions and see a number of examples to get a primer on what to expect with something. The main benefit over Google or going straight to the docs is I can start with my specific requirements. I then dig into the documentation to deepen my understanding. I can typically move forward with ChatGPT generating some code as a starting point.

It can be incorrect or out of date but combined with my experience I find myself being more productive with it.

A weakness I see is complex code requirements. It knows what it knows.

I note that you seem a little frustrated with vague or incorrect responses. It helps to tell ChatGPT the role it should play. It helps as well to instruct it to ask questions of you to improve the response. Personally I prefer to tell it keep its answers brief, I get less walls of text and I can narrow in on the specific answer I am after more quickly.

Re:Study: ChatGPT Outperforms Physicians in Quality, Empathe... by mock-possum on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:13AM (#35760319)
Right? Like I had a batshit insane conversation about song lyrics the other night, where the chatbot repeatedly generated patently incorrect responses - close enough to seem reasonable, but utterly incorrect, mistakes that I can’t imagine a human making, just straight up false statements that didn’t hold up to the slightest scrutiny. Incredibly frustrating. Imagine having that kind of experience with a medical professional, when you’re sick and impatient to receive care. awful.