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Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by yazaddaruvala on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:16PM (#35335456)
What does it even mean for The Fed to have "negative equity capital"? Firstly, is this "equity" a short term book value vs long term book value thing? Secondly, they can literally print money.

> the Federal Reserve has suffered operating losses of about $42 billion since September 2022

Between 2020 and 2022 they quantitatively eased $2TT+, and then over the last 12 months have actively quantitatively tightened $0.500 TT [0].

$0.042 TT is literally change to them. They can chose at any time to pay it off by stopping the quantitative tightening. Even a quantitative easing at this level would be inconsequential.

Who is benefiting from a scary headline like this? or am I totally misunderstanding something?

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1121416/quantitative-eas...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by csomar on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:30PM (#35335534)
> Secondly, they can literally print money.

This keeps getting repeated all over the internet... but the FED doesn't just "print" money. It creates money, loan it to some counter-party, and that counter-party has to return it. If the counter-party doesn't return the money, the FED losses money. They can print money to themselves, but that doesn't offset the losses.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by gruez on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:36PM (#35335574)
>This keeps getting repeated all over the internet... but the FED doesn't just "print" money. It creates money, loan it to some counter-party, and that counter-party has to return it.

That sounds like a pointless nitpick to me "ackshually the fed doesn't print money because everything is done digitally and no printing is actually done". What you described can be pretty much summed as "the fed prints money which it then uses to buy assets".

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SllX on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:40AM (#35335981)
He doesn’t mean digitally in lieu of printing notes.

Banks create money by accepting deposits and making loans. Here is a more detailed explanation of the process: http://www2.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/eco212i/lectures/ch13-1...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by Scarblac on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:42AM (#35336397)
But printing it is also creating it? I don't see the difference in meaning you suggest.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by notahacker on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @05:52AM (#35338127)
Well as a simple matter of fact, banks don't have the right to print banknotes, they merely create electronic deposits and then if someone wants to turn those into banknotes the banks have to borrow them from the Fed (or local equivalent). The more important difference this represents is that money is "created" as loans, with the bank's profit being the difference between the total amount that gets repaid to the bank by some creditworthy private person or organization and the amount the bank owes the Fed. So (i) the bank doesn't get to spend the money it "creates", it's actually reserves the bank owes to whoever's deposit account the money ends up in and (ii) it's a market-driven process where the bank is only incentivised to create money if prospective borrowers are demanding loans and the bank believes they will be able to repay them. (And the Fed in turn, "creates" and "destroys" money to the extent necessary to ensure the market interest rate is at a desired level, not to make profits or pay bills)

The uninformed school of internet libertarianism likes to conflate this process of credit creation with the practice of unstable governments realising they'll never be able to raise enough money from taxes or oil sales to pay for the mansions and five star generals they'd like to buy and so printing some more banknotes (not owed to anyone) to be a bit richer.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SllX on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:37PM (#35343826)
I provided the link with minimal commentary because the concept of money is one of those black magic things that is difficult for me to explain because it does put me out of my depth trying to keep the technical jargon straight and I’m never 100% sure about my own grasp; but making my best effort in good faith to try and explain it and keeping it as simple as is possible for me: a printed dollar is just a representation of $1, specifically it is a $1 Federal Reserve bank note documenting a dollar that is backed by the financial assets that are pledged as collateral by the Fed’s owners. Wikipedia says this is mostly Treasury Notes (debt instruments of the US government) and mortgage agency securities (relying on Wikipedia again, these are securities issued by Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or the Federal Home Loan banks).

What’s important to understand to make any sense of this is that when the bank issues you a loan, that sits on their Balance Sheet as an asset, and on your balance sheet as a liability, so when the bank issues you say $50K in the form of a Loan so you can buy a car and it is deposited into your account, USD$50,000.00 was created as money, but that doesn’t mean $50K of notes was printed. What changed is the following: the Bank’s assets increased by $50K balanced against its liability accounts, and your liabilities increased by $50K balanced against your asset accounts until you pay the money back.

There’s a lot more money than there is currency in circulation, and currency represents one type of money. It’s not a difference of one being physical and one being digital because all of it is documented somewhere whether it’s a PDF of a loan agreement and resulting statements or the cocaine-coated bills and coins in your pocket; they’re subtly distinct concepts of put another way, money is intangible but can be created and bank notes and promissory notes are tangible forms of it documenting money and can be printed. Taking it back to the Fed, actual paper money in circulation is considered a liability against the Fed’s assets which are other people’s (well, institution’s really) debts to the Federal reserve, and I think this is the point where I have to stop because I’m already out of my depth and taking it much further will put me way out into the deep end. Corrections and expansions from others welcome.

Also note that somebody replied to me above with a link to the Bank of England talking about money creation. I haven’t had the chance to read it, but it’s probably worth checking out as well.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:56AM (#35336494)
That's not the process. The process is that loans create deposits.

This is the process. From an actual central bank [0] [0]:https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by BuyMyBitcoins on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39AM (#35336375)
The most pedantic rebuttal I’ve encountered online when I mentioned that “The Fed prints money” was “No, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing prints money”.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by BLKNSLVR on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:41PM (#35335612)
> the FED doesn't just "print" money. It creates money

Accuse me of cherry picking or paraphrasing to miss the subtlety of the distinction, but the subtlety makes little overall difference, as far as my, admittedly limited, understanding goes. And that snippet just ... works so well.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by BigCryo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:39AM (#35335979)
Is is like something a character in Seinfeld would say.. it's not a lie if you believe it ... Or they just write it off
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:44PM (#35335625)
> the counter-party doesn't return the money, the FED losses money

Fed loans are collateralized. So the counterparty has to not return the money and the collateral has to lose more money than the bank has reserves. This would be a credit loss, and the law requires the Fed to avoid it. (It has.) This article is about something else.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jongjong on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:53PM (#35335700)
This is not correct. They distribute interest to 'depositors'. See reverse repo market. They're printing citizens' money and giving it to rich people just for being rich.

Also, if banks go bankrupt and then the individuals and businesses which they made loans to go bankrupt (which is actually not that uncommon; see SVB), the Fed cannot get that money back, the average citizen is the loser again...

So as you can see, the money is not always paid back.

The Fed just prints money, that's a fact. The "it's just loans" narrative is false rhetoric.

If there was no such thing as bankruptcy and debts were always passed on to borrowers' children and the government couldn't just keep taking out bigger loans to pay back their old loans and give huge contracts to big corporations ad-infinitum, then we could talk. Anything other than that and we have money printing going on; paid for by regular, honest, hard-working citizens through inflation and taxes.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:59PM (#35335752)
> distribute interest to 'depositors'. See reverse repo market

You're thinking of interest on excess reserves (IOER): interest paid to banks to encourage them to boost reserves at the Fed. Reverse repos are open-market operations; they're the Fed borrowing money against its collateral, thereby sucking liquidity from the system.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jongjong on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:06AM (#35335799)
How does that change fundamentals? The banks get free money from the Fed which gives them more money which they can use to pass on the interest payments to their own rich depositors. It also allows wealthy people to borrow more money against their substantial collateral to further prop up the value of their assets. Then when the bank goes bankrupt and a bunch of shell startups which it loaned money to go bankrupt, their failure and fat severance packages have been paid for by the people through cost of living increases.

Let's not forget that some of these bankrupt startups were basically tossing suitcases of advertising money at big tech prior to their bankruptcies. This is the people's money they were tossing at Big Tech. Then if they avoid jail (common), the founders of these failed startups will go on to get more funding 'a second chance', then a 'third chance', etc.. from the big VCs as a thank you for propping up their corporate stocks with 'borrowed' money which was never repaid.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:09AM (#35335813)
> does that change fundamentals

Because with IOER, the Fed creates the market. No Fed, no IOER. In reverse repos, the Fed participates in an existing market. There are plenty of people willing to make overnight loans against Treasuries. That's what a repo is.

The Fed is currently participating in that market to raise the cost of borrowing. If it's helping the rich one way, it's hurting them the other.

(I'm not arguing the Fed is an egalitarian institution. But it's inaccurate to describe its operations, particularly reverse repos, as "printing citizens' money and giving it to rich people just for being rich.")

> when the bank goes bankrupt and a bunch of shell startups which it loaned money to go bankrupt

This is a non sequitur. (Also, if you borrow money from a bank, they don't go away if the bank goes under.)

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jongjong on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:14AM (#35335843)
>> There are plenty of people willing to make overnight loans against Treasuries.

It misses the point of why Reverse Repos were created. IMO, it's to allow the biggest banks who cannot find a way to effectively and safely put their enormous pile of money to work in the economy to still get a return on it. A risk-free (and literally free) return paid for by citizens.

It artificially props up the entire system and all of its zombie companies. Not to mention the anti-competitive forces it creates.

>> Also, if you borrow money from a bank, they don't go away if the bank goes under

They do if you go bankrupt. Why do banks go bankrupt? Well often it's because a lot of their borrowers went bankrupt. That's literally what 'subprime mortgages' entail. They literally assume that some percentage of the loans will never be repaid.

But in any case, the main issue I have is that the flaws of the system are hidden under layer upon layer of complexity; seemingly designed precisely to avoid scrutiny.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by OrvalWintermute on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:43AM (#35336007)
> Why do banks go bankrupt? Well often it's because a lot of their borrowers went bankrupt.

I read into the SVB as fundamentally different from the traditional borrowers bankrupt issue.

> But the root of its demise goes back several years. Like many other banks, SVB ploughed billions into US government bonds during the era of near-zero interest rates. What seemed like a safe bet quickly came unstuck, as the Federal Reserve hiked interest rates aggressively to tame inflation. When interest rates rise, bond prices fall, so the jump in rates eroded the value of SVB’s bond portfolio. The portfolio was yielding an average 1.79% return last week, far below the 10-year Treasury yield of around 3.9%, Reuters reported.

> At the same time, the Fed’s hiking spree sent borrowing costs higher, meaning tech startups had to channel more cash towards repaying debt. At the same time, they were struggling to raise new venture capital funding. That forced companies to draw down on deposits held by SVB to fund their operations and growth....While SVB’s problems can be traced back to its earlier investment decisions, the run on the bank was triggered Wednesday when the lender announced that it had sold a bunch of securities at a loss and would sell $2.25 billion in new shares to plug the hole in its finances. That set off panic among customers, who withdrew their money in large numbers.

From [1]

Instead, lock in $ at extremely low rates on bonds improperly laddered, then firesales turned theoretical losses into actual losses, which then triggered a loss of faith and a liquidity crisis simultaneous to startup cash withdrawals just for payroll. The bank run on it meant there was no way to make customers whole.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/13/investing/silicon-valley-bank...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by topranks on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:14AM (#35336630)
They messed up from what I read.

Most banks would have a variety of bonds, long and short term, with varying yeilds. Esp. given the rise of inflation took a little while and it wasn’t unlikely rates would rise.

SVB putting so much into long-term, low-yield treasuries was a major failure of its risk management.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:45AM (#35336024)
> misses the point of why Reverse Repos were created. IMO, it's to allow the biggest banks who cannot find a way to effectively and safely put their enormous pile of money to work in the economy to still get a return on it

The history is more complicated [1]. Modern repos are also all about finding non-bank channels through which the Fed can influence the economy. (When done with banks, it's to induce them to not lend their reserves to each other.)

Again, your complaint is much more apt for interest on reserves. Repos aren't unique to the Fed. IOER pays banks for parking money in an account at the Fed.

> seemingly designed precisely to avoid scrutiny

I'd argue it's more about competing interests and anachronisms. (The Fed is, almost to a fault, tremendously transparent.) Why does the Fed have private bank shareholders? Because of irrelevant details from a hundred years ago. Is it confusing? Yes. Is it a priority to fix? No.

[1] https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/economic_b...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by latchkey on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:20AM (#35336238)
> if you borrow money from a bank, they don't go away if the bank goes under.

Saylor just got a nice 22% discount on repaying his loan when his bank went away...

https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1640325496654143488

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jongjong on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:24AM (#35338912)
Exactly, they can buy their own bonds back at a discount using a portion of the money they borrowed.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:54AM (#35336475)
Reserves can't be lent out to the main economy.

Reserves are assets of banks that can only be held by banks. They can't get rid of them in aggregate.

Loans are also assets of banks, and are created against supplied collateral along with the corresponding advance. The amount of reserves a bank has is irrelevant to that operation.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jongjong on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:34AM (#35339036)
This doesn't add up. Why would they implement such mechanism if it couldn't be converted into dollars somehow? Are you suggesting that the Fed and all the banks would waste their time playing around with fake monopoly money which has no relation and no effect on USD supply whatsoever just to confuse people and crease confidence. This is way too far-fetched. It makes conspiracy theories seem reasonable.

And in any case, didn't they lower the reserve requirement to 0 at the start of the pandemic?

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:12AM (#35339542)
Banks lend by creating a financial asset (say a mortgage) and the creating an advance against that.

Reassigning that advance to another person is how we pay for things with borrowed money.

Once it has been reassigned it called a deposit.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by kasey_junk on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:31PM (#35344769)
Reserves are one (largely unimportant) brake on lending. Many western central banks have never had a reserve requirement.

The more important limits to lending are regulatory capital controls which measure both the asset to liabilities mix but also the credit and interest rate risk of the asset mix and loan to deposit ratio.

The latter is a commonly tracked metric by bank investors and they typically view a ratio of higher than 0.8 with suspicion (down from 0.9 post 2008).

The US banking industry ratio is about .63 right now which is up from a pandemic low of .57 but still down from the pre-pandemic ratio of .75.

That banks were not lending enough was the reason the fed removed the reserve requirement.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by phendrenad2 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:13AM (#35335835)
The FED does not loan money. It gives it away. That's what QE is: The Fed buys bonds for more than they're worth on the open market. This disparity creates excess money in the system that wasn't there before.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by emkemp on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @06:40PM (#35349059)
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by gruez on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:24PM (#35335495)
> What does it even mean for The Fed to have "negative equity capital"? Firstly, is this "equity" a short term book value vs long term book value thing? Secondly, they can literally print money.

My interpretation of "the fed losing money" is "the fed bought some bonds when interest rates were low, interest rates went up, and now they're worth less, so they took a loss". It's true that they can print more money and therefore won't ever go bankrupt from this, but irrespective of that they're still losing money in an accounting sense.

>Who is benefiting from a scary headline like this? or am I totally misunderstanding something?

The headline is "the fed losing money", not "the fed is going bankrupt". You'd really have to be hysterical to think that the headline is scary.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by saxonww on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:44PM (#35335620)
As a layperson, "For the First Time, the Fed is Losing Money" as a headline from the Wall Street Journal is concerning. A lot of people are going to see that headline, and read just the first couple of paragraphs - not gonna pay for a subscription - and their takeaway in what they perceive of this economic climate is going to be that the Federal Reserve is on its way to insolvency. It doesn't really matter if that's even possible. Is it possible? I don't know if it is or not.

I agree with the GP that it's a scary headline. I wouldn't call myself hysterical; I'm not hyperventilating or anything.

The issue with the headline is not with people who understand finance, it's with people who don't but know enough to see the WSJ as an authority. They won't notice that it's an opinion piece, and they don't really know enough to understand if this is actually a problem or not.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by spaceman_2020 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:59AM (#35336518)
If something has never ever happened in the history of an institution, but was happening now, it deserves being written about, no?
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dkrich on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:11AM (#35337338)
It absolutely can happen. Not necessarily that they become insolvent to the point of closing up shop because they can borrow from the treasury (so long as the debt ceiling gets raised sufficiently) but they are basically already there.

They are paying more than they are taking in and are having a shortfall to the treasury.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dkrich on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:15AM (#35337364)
It’s more complicated than that. They don’t just hold bonds that have diminished in value and are underwater, they are borrowing money through the reserve program at higher interest rates than they are collecting. It’s the exact thing that sank svb but on a much larger scale. In a normal environment they lend at a higher rate than they borrow and remit the excess to the treasury. Now they are having to borrow.

This is another interesting dynamic in the Fed’s fight against inflation because ideally they’d like to actively sell some of their portfolio to increase QT but I’m not sure they can because of the losses they would be forced to realize. This is largely why they have taken a “passive” approach to balance sheet drawdown.

For two years everyone bragged about getting 2.5% mortgages and now are loving collecting an easy 4.5% on six month bonds. But people forget there’s always someone on the other side of a trade and now that the tide is going out we are seeing exactly who they are.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:32AM (#35340769)
I think it is not that important of a story. Worth paying attention if the patterns continues though the Fed is not a traditional bank and shouldn't be confused as such (many of the HN readers try and conflate the two much to their own embarrassment and which highlights their ignorance on the topic).
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by OscarCunningham on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:55PM (#35335714)
Dollars are a liability of the Fed. If they were to print dollars and keep them then that would increase both sides of the balance sheet without changing the amount of equity.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by User23 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:57AM (#35336103)
Not really. Reserves are a liability of the Fed. The only way a private citizen gets a hold of them is Federal Reserve Notes. Private citizens can also hold dollars in coins, which are not a liability of the Fed. And of course the money deposited in a bank account isn’t reserves either. In that case reserves don’t even enter the picture unless you withdraw notes or write a check that’s cashed at another bank.

And that last point is the 10,000 pound gorilla in the room that almost everyone ignores. The Fed’s primary mandate is not, as is commonly stated, to control inflation and unemployment. Rather, it is maintaining the operational integrity of the payments system. And they absolutely have to do that or people will not be able to transact in dollars. And of course the party that transacts more dollars than anyone else by far happens to be the one that created the Fed and can reorganize or destroy it if the Fed is foolish enough to create the political will to do so.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by Iwan-Zotow on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:25AM (#35341626)
you know that coins are minted by gvnmnt, not Feds?
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Monday March 27, 2023 @11:57PM (#35335734)
> can chose at any time to pay it off by stopping the quantitative tightening

This would be an actual concern. It would represent a policy constraint on the Fed. The truth is simpler: to the degree this number is problematic, it's in being misinterpreted by the public. But that's true of anything.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by phendrenad2 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:19AM (#35335862)
The Fed operates like any other investor, except it gets to spend money that doesn't technically exist. This actually has worked out great for the Fed because despite creating money from thin air, the US economy has been growing so quickly that the assets they have bought using this thin-air money has increased in value.

Now, with the economy slowing, inflation taking value out of investment vehicles, and interest rates being hiked, their assets are no longer increasing in value. This is just another window into the current inflation/interest crisis.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by darwinwhy on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39AM (#35336370)
When I think of an investor, I think of someone who picks and choses specific companies or sectors of the market to invest in. I'm curious what the Fed's tools allow it to invest in specific companies or sectors other than the economy as a whole. Can they get more targeted than an individual bank? Or is that the limit of their targeting power?
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by lbotos on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:59AM (#35337274)
https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/pomo_landing.html

They have a trading desk.

I can’t find the doc now but early pandemic there was some uproar that the desk started to buy “junk” aka things that weren’t worth the price paid.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:23AM (#35340643)
Because they have a trading desk does not mean that they are purchasing assets to make returns.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:12AM (#35341419)
> early pandemic there was some uproar that the desk started to buy “junk”

Early financial crisis. And they were agency mortgage securities.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by emkemp on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @06:31PM (#35348938)
The trading desk is not for investing by the Fed. That's for influencing interest rates based on inflation/deflation concerns and overall employment.

Investors buy or sell securities to earn a profit. Not the Fed.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by lbotos on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @08:30AM (#35356257)
The GP asked "how does the Fed go about buying things?" You are arguing that they don't meet the definition of an "investor" because they aren't "focused" on profit. To your point here's a graph of the Fed's profit they they've given to the Treasury since 2012: https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/...

I'd argue that while the fed is not solely or primarily focused on profit, they very much do profit in their operations. That graphic comes from an article where some speculate what would happen if the fed didn't profit:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/06/01/what-if-t...

I think you got hung up on the word "investor" and missed GPs actual question "how does the fed buy?"

From the page I linked:

"The New York Fed's Open Market Trading Desk (the Desk) purchases agency MBS to sustain the smooth functioning of the agency MBS market, thereby fostering effective transmission of monetary policy to broader financial conditions."

They have a group of people that are going into the open market and buying and selling. I dunno what those people are optimizing for in their purchases when it comes to MBS, but The Fed interact with "the market" exactly like others do in this case.

And more specifically GP, https://www.investopedia.com/the-fed-s-corporate-bond-portfo...

These are the companies the fed chose to buy in 2020 when Covid was peaking.

And to be clear those were not purchased by the "trading desk" the Fed isolated those purchases into a separate entity which they called "SMCCF": https://www.investopedia.com/secondary-market-corporate-cred... (The result is the same: some humans at "The Fed" went out into the market and selected some securities to purchase based on some criteria)

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmix on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:43AM (#35336406)
One should assume that such a risk should be either baked in or avoided. But even if it was calculated it could still mean the Fed behaviour is disconnected from the reality of public markets which they ostensibly serve.

It's a losing battle to fight this on some basis that these Fed/admin hires are just dumb villains and the whole scheme was poorly thought out by their well connected/educated revolving door who runs it.

The fed propping up stuff like mortgages and Wall St bankers gambling then repeatedly using the financial might of the general US market to stabilize it in the short term doesn't necessarily mean the markets they manipulate (ostensibly for the public's benefit) is better off long term. But it does make rational sense when everyone these people speak to is losing their shirt in the short term, and the FUDy doomers come out in the obedient media to say there’s no other choice but propping up the last decade’s status quo.

But once you start looking at historical interest rates, critical markets like mortgages/the many markets run by well connected pet oligopolies/etc, with all the subsequent risk glossed over via eliminating moral hazards... Ultimately critiquing the fed as if their economic structure is not well calculated is not the best strategy.

Like a lot of more extreme political opinions the reality is much more boring and harder to confront if all you do is invent caricatures disconnected from reality. The enemy is much more informed and adaptable than some conspiring backroom dealing elite we all just need to expose and it will all be over.

America’s historical stockpile of wealth and talent can be leaned on for only so long… just like Russia leaning on their Soviet arms stockpile the first time they confront a real threat (aka themselves).

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by christkv on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:51AM (#35336866)
The fed buys bonds right so they are getting the same rate squeeze as everyone with other bonds?
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:21AM (#35340617)
False it doesn't not operate like any other investor. It's mandate is not generate maximum returns. You have much to learn young padwan.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:51AM (#35336461)
The Fed sets the interest rate for the liability side of their balance sheet.

So they have deliberately decided to pay out interest by creating money in an attempt to reduce inflation.

Still think putting up interest rates stops prices rising?[0]

[0]: https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2023/02/04/do-high-inter...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by esoterica on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:31AM (#35336737)
Your blog just has a bunch of charts showing that high interest rates are correlated with high inflation and gets the direction of causality wrong. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the correlation exists because governments respond to high inflation with high interest rates? Not because the latter causes the former?

Is there a name for this general type of fallacy where defect A results in mitigating response B, but people see the correlation and wrongly conclude that B causes A instead? Examples:

1. Building more apartments "causes" higher rents

2. Covid lockdowns "cause" more excess deaths

3. Higher incarceration rates "cause" higher crime

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by 123pie123 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:31AM (#35337099)
Did you know that approx 40% of all the people who have looked at a red flag will get cancer
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by chalst on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:06AM (#35337312)
You claim without argument that Blair Fix gets the direction of the causality wrong. In fact he talks about both directions and argues for his interpretation.

You've failed to identify a fallacy.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by notahacker on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @06:27AM (#35338438)
Nope, he has correctly identified that the author has committed the fallacy of confusing cause and effect. Countries literally have formal policies of raising interest rates when inflation rises, ergo interest rates tend to be high when inflation is high. Why do they do this? Because higher interest rates are prescribed as a cure for inflation. And because it has repeatedly succeeded, over time, in bringing inflation back down again.

So his cargo cult "experiment" proves absolutely nothing because his results are exactly what is expected, just as a doctor would also be unsurprised to discover that a someone with a snide tone about and a middle school grasp of statistics had reached the remarkable conclusion that patients with prescriptions tended to be less healthy than those without.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:24AM (#35339689)
There is no down regulation effect from interest rates. It’s an autocorrelation.

https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2023/02/19/interest-rate...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by notahacker on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:14AM (#35342413)
That blog's not exactly an improvement to his argument. He tries to dismiss the evidence that [nominal] interest rate changes have a lagged effect on inflation by positing that the interest rate drops are instead caused by a secular "inflation cycle"[1]

Trouble is, there hasn't been any secular "inflation cycle" in the last 30ish years in developed countries that have adopted the policy of managing inflation by downregulating it with interest rate changes. Either you accept that the orthodox policy of announcing that inflation will be managed with interest rate rises has been remarkably successful at containing inflation, or you're scrambling for an alternative explanation for why it appears to have been so successful that doesn't use "inflation cycles". It's certainly telling that he uses hypothetical data to illustrate this theory, and then since the real world time series are so unhelpful to his argument he has to chuck hundreds of data points from different countries, years and interest rate policy regimes into a graph where most of the data points sit near the origin[2] and draw conclusions from the outliers!

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Blair Fix hasn't disproved pretty much the one thing economists who fiercely hate each others' theoretical models and policy recommendations came to consensus on as established fact with a graph which showed exactly the results people familiar with the literature - which Fix clearly isn't - would all expect to see.

As the patient group all went into remission for three decades, it's not even as persuasive a statistical argument as the one for drugs being the cause of terminal illness

[1]ironically, the most plausible explanation for a tendency towards inflation being cyclical as opposed to steady or tending to accelerate would be countercyclical downward pressure on money supply from the Fisher Effect on market credit prices [2]the key bit being that most of the points sit near the origin because the policy has been so successful...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by kavalg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:23AM (#35337423)
Correlation vs Causation
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by neilwilson on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:22AM (#35339661)
Yes they do, but that doesn’t mean what has been done has any actual effect. It’s just an auto correlated belief. There is no Down regulation effect.

In effect the mythical causations you quote are precisely what economists believe

To them more people in prison does cause more gun crime.

https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2023/02/19/interest-rate...

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jevgeni on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:19AM (#35336648)
A Murdoch-owned newspaper publishes something scary that a lay person would link to current admin spending...
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by Dalewyn on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:01AM (#35336912)
>Who is benefiting from a scary headline like this?

My wider, lay understanding of this is that the powers-that-be (hereafter "PTB") do not like the FRB's interest rate hikes, so from the PTBs' perspective:

1. Create fear and more fear and further fear among the public in the hopes of triggering further bank runs ("ohnoes the gov can't bailout savings no more!") and other fiscal destruction.

2. FRB is eventually forced to reconsider their current (read: undesirable) fiscal plans. Ideally go back to zero interest rates?

3. ????

4. PTBs PROFIT once more?

All journalism is propaganda and exist strictly to benefit someone out there, so I would be particularly skeptical if that propaganda is also fearmongering.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by hksoftware on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:26AM (#35337079)
Oy Vey
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by bigfudge on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:07AM (#35337323)
I don’t understand this comment so may have this completely wrong. But using Jewish stereotyping in articles about a kind of banking conspiracy theory is something I would avoid though.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by concordDance on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:15AM (#35337362)
There is no unified Jewish conspiracy. Only a portion of bankers are even Jews and plenty of non-banker Jews like higher rates.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:44AM (#35337187)
Absolutely delusional to think the powers that be don't like the rate hikes.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by chalst on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:51AM (#35337228)
Some like them, more hate them.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:03AM (#35337294)
The powers that be love them. They raise the rates whenever they think they can afford to.

Money is like equity. Raising the rates is essentially a way for them to consolidate more equity. They distributed more equity than they were comfortable with as stimulus during covid, and now they're calling it back. The pattern has been going on since the 70s at least. They made up the BS idea of "natural rate of unemployment" to justify it and gave a nobel prize to the guy who said to keep the unemployment at 5% to keep down "wage inflation"... a.k.a.. people getting paid more. Pay hasn't tracked productivity ever since. Look at the unemployment vs fed rate charts.

Letting your currency inflate is a populist move for a reason. It's not because people are dumb, it's because it while it devalues people's savings, it puts money in the pockets of people without savings, and devalues debt as well. It was used previously in Portugal, Italy and Greece to spur exports whenever the economies were hitting a rough spot. Once they got on the Euro and the powers that be wouldn't inflate, they were screwed, and Germany was able to buy up a bunch of their assets and essentially takes tribute via interest rates on their loans now. It skims off the productivity of their economies. Raising the rates helps them skim more.

Libertartian types tend to have savings. They like to spin a story that justifies what they sense... that raising rates is good for them. It is good for them. People are really good a sniffing out their incentives, even if they don't quite know why. It's also good for the powers that be though.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by orbit7 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @05:41AM (#35338025)
Whilst it devalues debt, I'm not sure I follow it being populist? Since it results in higher food, energy, rent prices etc and wages do not typically keep pace.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:01AM (#35338735)
The federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%. This is just a number they made up that happens to be high enough to continuously erode the power of labor. If unemployment starts to dip below that, they raise the rates as quickly as possible. You can look at historical graphs of fed rate vs unemployment to verify. The rates are jacked up, it causes a recession. Unemployment increases. They reduce the rates, we recover from the recession, then they raise them as quickly as possible to stem "wage inflation" (a.k.a. people making more money) and within several months, the next recession starts.

The reason the wages don't rise with the prices is because that 5% are getting hired, and the under-employed are getting more hours, and they jack up the rates as quickly as possible as soon as they sense that wages are rising. However with the increased hours, and fewer under-employed there are people who couldn't afford toilet paper who are finally able to, and that increase the prices. That's not a bad thing. More overtime has a much bigger effect than increased egg prices to most people in low wage jobs. And lower unemployment improves their working conditions as well. It's still essentially a transfer of shares to the broke, even if the wages don't directly increase. Also, a lot of the inflation that was happening this go-around was due to rich people with their PPP loans being able to speculate. Taxing the rich at a more progressive rate as was done in the 50s and 60s would be an alternative way to stem inflation besides using the fed rate. But of course they haven't touched that one in a while.

It's not just trump and sanders that are populists looking for lower fed rates from the central banks. In most countries I think you'll find that the populist parties (i.e. the party with most representation among the poorest) tend toward pushing for lower interest rates and more government spending. You'll also find that those representing the rich tend to push for austerity. There's a reason for that. And it's not that the populists are all working together. You can tell they have much more disparate values than the centrist globalists who want high rates.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:11AM (#35341390)
> federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%

Source? The natural rate of unemployment, like the neutral interest rate, floats with economic conditions and cannot be directly estimated.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:58PM (#35344180)
Right, they use their super scientific model that was definitely arrived at in a very scientific way that just so happens to keep the number hovering at 4 or 5%. There's nothing real stopping us from cruising around with unemployment at 2 or 3%. Other countries do it. It's been like that in the past in the US. And the invention of the concept just so happens to coincide with a complete de-correlation between productivity gains and wage gains. It's also based off of a dogmatic assumption that you can't have low unemployment and low inflation, and a failed economic model.

Anyway, as for a source, the 2nd paragraph of the wikipedia article on NAIRU states it's generally 5-6%. You can pretty readily google it and see that it's been between 4-6%.

https://www.ft.com/content/facf6989-7cd2-3724-a6d4-dfe7c7551... "Among a certain set, the big debates in the 1960s were about whether the government should target an unemployment rate of 3 per cent or 5 per cent." Guess which one they picked. Economics, as it intersects with politics, is not a science at all. Not even close. It's the result of people with agendas funding grants with hopes that someone will show the results they want, and then them cherrypicking those results. If you throw enough money into it, you can find a "scientific" justification for anything. The more academic side of it has some merit... but for the most part it gest brushed aside because it's not telling the people making the policy what they want to hear.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by avn2109 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:40AM (#35341879)
Great clear-eyed and cynical take here, I like the spirit of this comment if not all the details/conclusions, but can you provide a link/source for "You can look at historical graphs of fed rate vs unemployment to verify" and the "federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%" claims?

I think both of these are probably roughly true-ish but by brief Googling I couldn't verify either one.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:09PM (#35344382)
The 2nd paragraph of the wikipedia entry on NAIRU mentions it being set at 5-6%. This article shows graphics with similar numbers: https://www.ft.com/content/facf6989-7cd2-3724-a6d4-dfe7c7551...

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_funds_rate_v... <-- that's a graph like what I'm talking about. Notice how the blue tends to go up sharply before the grey recession bars. And this tends to happen right as the red line starts to approach 5%. There's an exception recently because trump was in office demanding that they keep the fed rate low, and I guess they decided to listen to him because he was cutting their taxes. But you can tell they didn't love the guy by the way the media covered him. I'm no fan either, but for different reasons.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by pierrebai on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:42PM (#35344942)
That wiki graph does not show what you say. There are multiple place in the curve that don't follow your theory. And by places, I mean for example the stretch from 1980 to 2000.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by pierrebai on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39PM (#35344885)
Or you simply are inverting cause and effect. Or at least cause and multiple independent effects. When the inflation goes up, both interest rates and unemployment go up.

It's akin to saying that coughing causes lung cancer. Smoking causes coughing and lung cancer. One cause, multiple effects.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @04:40AM (#35354294)
Nit: it devalues fixed rate debt.

I’m not sure if poor or “working class” demographics have enough exposure to fixed rate debt to make inflation a net gain.

If they are homeowners, likely it is: most people knew better to take out ARMs this time around.

Not a homeowner? Tough to conclude that rising rates is a net win here …

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SamPatt on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:10AM (#35342337)
Libertarian types don't have a preference for high interest rates because they have savings. They have a preference for the interest rate to be set by the market freely, instead of being intentionally manipulated up and down by central planners and causing havoc in the economy.

The reason they currently support higher rates is twofold: 1) The Fed has kept rates artificially low for an irresponsibly long period of time, leading to inflation and other economic distortions, and 2) The only way to get inflation (which is pernicious) under control is with higher rates.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:36PM (#35343796)
You can control inflation with taxes, and it's a more fiscally responsible way to do it.

As for "irresponsibly low" and "(which is pernicious)"... these are your value judgements that you've arrived at based on your perspective. That's fine, but other people have other perspectives. To someone with debt who wants a well-lubricated economy, or to someone who makes money off of exports, it's not irresponsible at all.

If you look at the history of fed rates vs unemployment and recessions, it's a very clear trend that the fed rate has to stay lower longer for a recovery, and it takes less raising of the rates to put us back in a recession. Why would this be? Maybe because it's not the appropriate tool to be using to control inflation. Maybe it's not because the fed is being irresponsible, but it's doing what it has to to keep the economy afloat and that's less and less effective because the country refuses to do what it has to, which is raise taxes on the rich.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SamPatt on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39PM (#35344882)
What field of economic thought leads you to claim that inflation can (and should) be controlled by taxing the rich?

This is an unusual claim, to say the least.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:06AM (#35354499)
"What field of economic thought leads you to claim that inflation can (and should) be controlled by taxing the rich?"

Not "the rich" per se, but he is speaking of MMT[1] which maintains that the government of a sovereign printer (sorry, Argentina) does not need taxes at all because they don't "need" the money.

MMT purports that money is created by "printing" it into existence and money is destroyed by taxing it away.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:44AM (#35355739)
When the federal reserve loans money to banks, where does that money come from?

When the federal government pays its debt to the federal reserve, where does that money go?

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:01AM (#35354456)
"You can control inflation with taxes, and it's a more fiscally responsible way to do it."

There is an interesting and compelling theory that you can control inflation with taxes (broadly, MMT[1]) but the cautious and (in my opinion) warranted skepticism that you voice, upthread, about prevailing economic theories should be extended to MMT as well.

We don't really know if money supply creation via "printing" and the corresponding destruction via taxation will work just as MMT suggests it will.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by imtringued on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:14PM (#35346331)
Even Fisher Black admits that there is a currency trap at 0% and he doesn't mean that the problem is that the interest rate is too low but rather that the zero lower bound is like a minimum price control that constraints the formation of interest rates and he basically predicted what the IMF blog Said about this resulting in cash and electronic bank accounts ending up with an exchange rate between them.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by intrasight on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:58AM (#35340241)
My smart friends - rich and poor - universally approve of the rate hikes, because they understand, like me, that price stability is their primary mandate. Many also believe, like me, that the Fed really screwed this up in the last few years.

If by "PTB" you mean the market, then of course it hates rate hikes. Also just hates uncertainty.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:42AM (#35340915)
Seems like a convenient coincidence that all your "smart" friends agree with you lol.

Actually the fed has a dual mandates: price stability and unemployment. Price stability can also be achieved by taxation.

And in this case the massive inflation we saw was mostly due to supply chain issues. So many businesses shut down during the pandemic. Others were hanging on by a thread. Which sounds like it will help supply chains recover? Increasing interest rates for loans? Or keeping access to lots of liquidity? Hmmm, seems like if we're wanting to expand capacity again, we want liquidity. Then prices can go back down due to capacity going back to normal, rather than artificially reducing demand by getting everyone fired.

If we need critical immediate measures to stem inflation, then we can raise taxes. Get some of that PPP money back. Make everyone who was speculating on housing sell their investment homes. That will drive inflation back down without starving the recovering supply chains.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by intrasight on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:36PM (#35345787)
I did say "primary mandate". I don't think that is controversial.

>then we can raise taxes

I totally agree that raising taxes is the right thing to do (as do my smart friends and most economists ;) ). But that's not the lever the Fed has. And of course it's politically untenable.

> Make everyone who was speculating on housing sell their investment homes. Agree there too. But that's not the lever the Fed has.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by tempaway45734 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:44AM (#35339160)
The 'Powers that be' are corporations. They dont want rate hikes.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:35AM (#35339866)
If you want to know what the powers that be want, just look at what Pelosi and McConnell agree on.

If you want to see what they’ve specifically adopted as a wedge issue to divide people, look at what they disagree on.

It’s not the businesses that are the powers that be but their board members. They’ll tank one company if it will help the others

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by tmn on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:39PM (#35347490)
I mean Lagarde openly pleaded for Powell to not raise rates..
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by wolfi008 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:02AM (#35339407)
> All journalism is propaganda

Such a derogatory statement detached from reality. It's like saying all health professionals are out there to get your money by keeping you as sick as possible. Or all teachers are out to indoctrinate your kids. Or all firefighters are arsenists.

I have quite a few journalists as friends or acquaintances, and many of them are the most honest people I know, with strong ethics and admireable ideals.

Of course there are bad apples out there. In any profession. But your statement is just ridiculous.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:42AM (#35339976)
Bad apples is a very apt term.

A few bad apples spoils the bunch. You can have thousands of apples in a barrel, but a couple of bad ones can quickly make the whole barrel worthless.

For example, the New York Times makes the right call on integrity vs profits, access, etc dozens of times a day for years. Then one time 20 years ago they make the wrong call vis a vis Iraq weapons of mass destruction, and they've almost completely destroyed their integrity. Seems unfair, but as a consumer we can no longer trust them, and probably never should have.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:20AM (#35340594)
Sure some damage from that but destroyed their credibility - I think it sounds like your coming at them with a significant grudge.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by PathOfEclipse on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:06AM (#35341321)
NYT have destroyed their credibility for numerous reasons, both past and present: https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Lady-Winked-Misreporting-Fabrica...
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:43PM (#35343935)
Pretty poor source of information. I just spent a couple seconds going over the authors twitter feed confirms what I would have suspected.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by PathOfEclipse on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:22PM (#35344611)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

This is probably one of the most commonly-used fallacies I see people used to deal with cognitive dissonance caused by information that might make them uncomfortable.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by boringg on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @02:54PM (#35346047)
I mean to get through life without having to run every single thing down you use heuristics to evaluate whether it is worth pursuing the details or not. My heuristic wrote off whether looking at pursuing his perspective is worth it or not based on the comments in his twitter feed which seem to match up perfectly with his charges. It's why credentials have value.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by PathOfEclipse on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:59AM (#35359114)
I don't know what's on his twitter feed, but I've yet to see a single rebuttal to any of the main highlights of that book. Don't be blind to the truth because of your own personal biases.

I just scanned his twitter feed and I don't see anything terribly problematic, so I'm not even sure what you're referring to that would make you ignore him.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by waboremo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:49AM (#35341025)
I wonder why so many believe a for profit institution could ever care about integrity.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by wolfi008 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:10AM (#35341371)
We all do our jobs for money. That is, for a profit.

Are you claiming that none of us has integrity in our professional work?

Articles are not written by institutions. They are written by individuals. Just like the code I write every day. For money.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by waboremo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:45PM (#35347567)
What an absurd argument. Not everyone works at a for profit publicly traded company.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by doubleg72 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:12PM (#35351276)
Hmm, not sure I see where that was ever an argument. Regarding what was actually said, if you work for pay, that is typically considered profit.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:58AM (#35341208)
I believe that ~99% of the people at the NYT care about integrity. But 99% isn't enough.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by lazide on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:44PM (#35343952)
It’s very unlikely to be 99%.

I would say 99% of them want to be paid.

And that 99%ish of them realize that they need to at least look like they have integrity to be paid.

And if asked, I’m sure 99% of them would admit that the best way to keep getting paid and look like they have integrity is to actually have integrity.

usually where the problems happen is when they can’t see the disconnect between their day to day actions and the long term goal, or when they hit a challenge where they can’t do what they need to do - and then can’t take ownership of what they did and instead hide/project/deny, etc.

I’m guessing less than 90% would really have actual integrity, and the rest should hopefully be kept in check by fear of discovery or whatever. But things slip through regardless.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by losteric on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:57PM (#35351129)
I'm all for socialism, communism. That's what you're proposing, right?

Otherwise you're saying "can't trust the status quo, can't trust the alternative" - noise, at best.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by wolfi008 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:07AM (#35341336)
> Then one time 20 years ago they make the wrong call vis a vis Iraq weapons of mass destruction, and they've almost completely destroyed their integrity.

If you think about the Iraq war whenever your read a piece by a journalist in the NYT, even if that journalist wasn't even out of their diapers at that time, then you may need to re-adjust your grudges.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by nathan_compton on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:18AM (#35341517)
> but as a consumer we can no longer trust them, and probably never should have.

This doesn't follow. I'm not a fan of the mainstream media by any means, but trust is not an all or nothing thing. It is entirely possible to develop a relatively sophisticated relationship with news media and to assign different levels of trust to different elements of what is encountered. Indeed, one might even vary their level of trust on a sentence by sentence basis!

The idea that the media must be entirely correct and entirely unbiased is jejune. It isn't the world we live in, has never been the world we live in. Take a little epistemological responsibility.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by insanitybit on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:23AM (#35341596)
Empirically it sounds like you should trust them.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by edmundsauto on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:02PM (#35364431)
Are there any large orgs that haven't made a significant misstep in the past 20 years? It sounds like this could be shortcutted into "don't trust any organizations" which rounds to ... not useful? Some organizations can be trusted more than others, and "trust" should be multi-dimensional.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by klibertp on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @08:32AM (#35339813)
> Such a derogatory statement detached from reality.

Lets try again: almost all journalism is written to influence readers. No hyperbole, no derogatory term, still what GP (I think) wanted to say. Thoughts?

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by peteradio on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:16AM (#35341476)
Propaganda is just information released to push a particular point of view. Propaganda is far more derogatory sounding than it should be. The analogy to healthcare is way too extreme.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by wolfi008 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:31AM (#35355144)
Then you are halfway to realizing how extreme the claim is that all journalists actively push a particular point of view, i.e., are engaging in propaganda.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:00AM (#35342168)
The problem isn't with the individual journalists, it's that the structural incentives of for-profit journalism require that editors, writers et al. bias their thinking to assume that the current structure is valid and generally whomever the highest bidder over the longest term determines what the structure is.

That is to say, every human act is political whether you acknowledge it or not because it either maintains the current system or attempts to change it. So we should question the motives of anyone who is structurally incentivized to give you information that benefits the owners of the periodical.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by wolfi008 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:29AM (#35355127)
Bias sure. But that does not imply propaganda which is a much stronger accusation.

There obviously is propaganda here and there, but not every person having a bias is engaging in propaganda.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by sfifs on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @09:03PM (#35350591)
I wonder if the bank run on SVB wasn't planned or coordinated in some way by VCs & private to create a scare in the financial system to force rate hikes to stop or slow down as VCs and Private Equity did very well in the era of free money and now are facing headwinds. It is not as if the VCs who triggered the collapse are not very smart people who would not have understood the exact implications of what they were doing.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dkrich on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:55AM (#35337258)
The fed has a balance sheet that consists of bonds of varying maturities mostly. During covid the balance sheet exploded as they bought all sorts of mbs securities and bonds to loosen liquidity. By definition that was basically the exact opposite of what a rational person would do acting in his own best interests, but it’s what they did at first to restore order to credit markets and then after that because they thought that’s what people wanted them to do.

But now those bonds have gone massively underwater because of their own policy- they have drastically raised interest rates on shorter duration bonds while simultaneously stopped buying bonds. So the value of the assets they hold is drastically diminished.

But the fed also borrows money on the short end from banks through the reserve program. Banks keep excess reserves at the fed and the fed pays them interest. In a normal environment that’s not a problem because long bonds usually yield more than short bonds. But because the fed loaded up on low yield bonds they have a negative carry so they are losing money now. Normally they would pay the excess to the treasury but now they have to borrow from it.

The interesting thing is that this is basically what sank svb but on a much larger scale. The difference is obviously that the government can print its own money.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:14AM (#35341439)
> the fed also borrows money on the short end from banks through the reserve program

The Fed doesn’t borrow reserves. That it even pays interest on them is at its discretion.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jkhdigital on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @06:11AM (#35338289)
The headline is a simple statement of fact. And I think the article does a reasonably good job of stating facts without too much speculation about the potential consequences. I think most educated adults would agree that the facts being reported here are indeed newsworthy, especially considering all the other things that manage to make the editorial cut.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jwarden on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @06:38AM (#35338521)
Negative equity capital simply means that on the Fed's balance sheet, equity (assets - liabilities) is negative. The Fed's operates on the same fundamental accounting principles as any other organization, so it has assets, liabilities, and equity ("book value"). Its total assets (such as government bonds) is actually slightly higher than its liabilities (e.g. the value of deposits by other banks), but not by much, so it's book value tends to be quite small.

The book value represents the net investment made by the owner of Federal Reserve banks.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by pid-1 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:20AM (#35338878)
> Secondly, they can literally print money.

That's a great solution for everything as long as one doesn't care about inflation.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by jerf on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:21AM (#35341564)
"Secondly, they can literally print money."

It is important, even very important, to realize that this merely changes the laws of economics to which they are subject, at least as people generally imagine them. It does not immunize them against the laws of economics. It does not mean they can just do anything without consequence, or with the full power to select the consequences.

This is in the class of "things that sound obvious when I say them", but I can see that a lot of people seem to throw an exception here and terminate all execution. Having negative equity matters, even if you can print money. It just may matter differently.

"or am I totally misunderstanding something?"

I would say, you're not so much "misunderstanding" something as not realizing that there's a whole complex of interacting systems hiding behind your "but they can just print money" that needs understanding. Whether those systems are deliberately obscured is a matter of some debate, but they certainly don't go out of their way to educate you about these systems. Everything is far more complicated and interconnected then you appear to be seeing.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by phaedrus on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:11AM (#35342359)
I'm not an expert on economics, but I think it's obvious on first principles. The constraint on the ability to print money is its devaluation. If the Fed is in a position it would want to both tighten the money supply and print money, this seems like the central bank equivalent of a chess position with the King in check.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by throw0101b on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @05:06PM (#35347837)
> Secondly, they can literally print money.

They can print reserves, which is only usable with-in the Fed's inter-bank settlement system.

The actual money in the economy is created by banks through issuing credit:

> Most of the money in the economy is created, not by printing presses at the central bank, but by banks when they provide loans.

* https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/how-is-money-crea...