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Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @04:03AM (#35337294)
The powers that be love them. They raise the rates whenever they think they can afford to.

Money is like equity. Raising the rates is essentially a way for them to consolidate more equity. They distributed more equity than they were comfortable with as stimulus during covid, and now they're calling it back. The pattern has been going on since the 70s at least. They made up the BS idea of "natural rate of unemployment" to justify it and gave a nobel prize to the guy who said to keep the unemployment at 5% to keep down "wage inflation"... a.k.a.. people getting paid more. Pay hasn't tracked productivity ever since. Look at the unemployment vs fed rate charts.

Letting your currency inflate is a populist move for a reason. It's not because people are dumb, it's because it while it devalues people's savings, it puts money in the pockets of people without savings, and devalues debt as well. It was used previously in Portugal, Italy and Greece to spur exports whenever the economies were hitting a rough spot. Once they got on the Euro and the powers that be wouldn't inflate, they were screwed, and Germany was able to buy up a bunch of their assets and essentially takes tribute via interest rates on their loans now. It skims off the productivity of their economies. Raising the rates helps them skim more.

Libertartian types tend to have savings. They like to spin a story that justifies what they sense... that raising rates is good for them. It is good for them. People are really good a sniffing out their incentives, even if they don't quite know why. It's also good for the powers that be though.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by orbit7 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @05:41AM (#35338025)
Whilst it devalues debt, I'm not sure I follow it being populist? Since it results in higher food, energy, rent prices etc and wages do not typically keep pace.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @07:01AM (#35338735)
The federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%. This is just a number they made up that happens to be high enough to continuously erode the power of labor. If unemployment starts to dip below that, they raise the rates as quickly as possible. You can look at historical graphs of fed rate vs unemployment to verify. The rates are jacked up, it causes a recession. Unemployment increases. They reduce the rates, we recover from the recession, then they raise them as quickly as possible to stem "wage inflation" (a.k.a. people making more money) and within several months, the next recession starts.

The reason the wages don't rise with the prices is because that 5% are getting hired, and the under-employed are getting more hours, and they jack up the rates as quickly as possible as soon as they sense that wages are rising. However with the increased hours, and fewer under-employed there are people who couldn't afford toilet paper who are finally able to, and that increase the prices. That's not a bad thing. More overtime has a much bigger effect than increased egg prices to most people in low wage jobs. And lower unemployment improves their working conditions as well. It's still essentially a transfer of shares to the broke, even if the wages don't directly increase. Also, a lot of the inflation that was happening this go-around was due to rich people with their PPP loans being able to speculate. Taxing the rich at a more progressive rate as was done in the 50s and 60s would be an alternative way to stem inflation besides using the fed rate. But of course they haven't touched that one in a while.

It's not just trump and sanders that are populists looking for lower fed rates from the central banks. In most countries I think you'll find that the populist parties (i.e. the party with most representation among the poorest) tend toward pushing for lower interest rates and more government spending. You'll also find that those representing the rich tend to push for austerity. There's a reason for that. And it's not that the populists are all working together. You can tell they have much more disparate values than the centrist globalists who want high rates.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:11AM (#35341390)
> federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%

Source? The natural rate of unemployment, like the neutral interest rate, floats with economic conditions and cannot be directly estimated.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:58PM (#35344180)
Right, they use their super scientific model that was definitely arrived at in a very scientific way that just so happens to keep the number hovering at 4 or 5%. There's nothing real stopping us from cruising around with unemployment at 2 or 3%. Other countries do it. It's been like that in the past in the US. And the invention of the concept just so happens to coincide with a complete de-correlation between productivity gains and wage gains. It's also based off of a dogmatic assumption that you can't have low unemployment and low inflation, and a failed economic model.

Anyway, as for a source, the 2nd paragraph of the wikipedia article on NAIRU states it's generally 5-6%. You can pretty readily google it and see that it's been between 4-6%.

https://www.ft.com/content/facf6989-7cd2-3724-a6d4-dfe7c7551... "Among a certain set, the big debates in the 1960s were about whether the government should target an unemployment rate of 3 per cent or 5 per cent." Guess which one they picked. Economics, as it intersects with politics, is not a science at all. Not even close. It's the result of people with agendas funding grants with hopes that someone will show the results they want, and then them cherrypicking those results. If you throw enough money into it, you can find a "scientific" justification for anything. The more academic side of it has some merit... but for the most part it gest brushed aside because it's not telling the people making the policy what they want to hear.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by avn2109 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @10:40AM (#35341879)
Great clear-eyed and cynical take here, I like the spirit of this comment if not all the details/conclusions, but can you provide a link/source for "You can look at historical graphs of fed rate vs unemployment to verify" and the "federal reserve defines the "natural rate of unemployment" as being around 5%" claims?

I think both of these are probably roughly true-ish but by brief Googling I couldn't verify either one.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:09PM (#35344382)
The 2nd paragraph of the wikipedia entry on NAIRU mentions it being set at 5-6%. This article shows graphics with similar numbers: https://www.ft.com/content/facf6989-7cd2-3724-a6d4-dfe7c7551...

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_funds_rate_v... <-- that's a graph like what I'm talking about. Notice how the blue tends to go up sharply before the grey recession bars. And this tends to happen right as the red line starts to approach 5%. There's an exception recently because trump was in office demanding that they keep the fed rate low, and I guess they decided to listen to him because he was cutting their taxes. But you can tell they didn't love the guy by the way the media covered him. I'm no fan either, but for different reasons.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by pierrebai on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:42PM (#35344942)
That wiki graph does not show what you say. There are multiple place in the curve that don't follow your theory. And by places, I mean for example the stretch from 1980 to 2000.
Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by pierrebai on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39PM (#35344885)
Or you simply are inverting cause and effect. Or at least cause and multiple independent effects. When the inflation goes up, both interest rates and unemployment go up.

It's akin to saying that coughing causes lung cancer. Smoking causes coughing and lung cancer. One cause, multiple effects.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @04:40AM (#35354294)
Nit: it devalues fixed rate debt.

I’m not sure if poor or “working class” demographics have enough exposure to fixed rate debt to make inflation a net gain.

If they are homeowners, likely it is: most people knew better to take out ARMs this time around.

Not a homeowner? Tough to conclude that rising rates is a net win here …

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SamPatt on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @11:10AM (#35342337)
Libertarian types don't have a preference for high interest rates because they have savings. They have a preference for the interest rate to be set by the market freely, instead of being intentionally manipulated up and down by central planners and causing havoc in the economy.

The reason they currently support higher rates is twofold: 1) The Fed has kept rates artificially low for an irresponsibly long period of time, leading to inflation and other economic distortions, and 2) The only way to get inflation (which is pernicious) under control is with higher rates.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @12:36PM (#35343796)
You can control inflation with taxes, and it's a more fiscally responsible way to do it.

As for "irresponsibly low" and "(which is pernicious)"... these are your value judgements that you've arrived at based on your perspective. That's fine, but other people have other perspectives. To someone with debt who wants a well-lubricated economy, or to someone who makes money off of exports, it's not irresponsible at all.

If you look at the history of fed rates vs unemployment and recessions, it's a very clear trend that the fed rate has to stay lower longer for a recovery, and it takes less raising of the rates to put us back in a recession. Why would this be? Maybe because it's not the appropriate tool to be using to control inflation. Maybe it's not because the fed is being irresponsible, but it's doing what it has to to keep the economy afloat and that's less and less effective because the country refuses to do what it has to, which is raise taxes on the rich.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by SamPatt on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @01:39PM (#35344882)
What field of economic thought leads you to claim that inflation can (and should) be controlled by taxing the rich?

This is an unusual claim, to say the least.

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:06AM (#35354499)
"What field of economic thought leads you to claim that inflation can (and should) be controlled by taxing the rich?"

Not "the rich" per se, but he is speaking of MMT[1] which maintains that the government of a sovereign printer (sorry, Argentina) does not need taxes at all because they don't "need" the money.

MMT purports that money is created by "printing" it into existence and money is destroyed by taxing it away.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by dmn322 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:44AM (#35355739)
When the federal reserve loans money to banks, where does that money come from?

When the federal government pays its debt to the federal reserve, where does that money go?

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by rsync on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:01AM (#35354456)
"You can control inflation with taxes, and it's a more fiscally responsible way to do it."

There is an interesting and compelling theory that you can control inflation with taxes (broadly, MMT[1]) but the cautious and (in my opinion) warranted skepticism that you voice, upthread, about prevailing economic theories should be extended to MMT as well.

We don't really know if money supply creation via "printing" and the corresponding destruction via taxation will work just as MMT suggests it will.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

Re:For the First Time, the Fed Is Losing Money by imtringued on Tuesday March 28, 2023 @03:14PM (#35346331)
Even Fisher Black admits that there is a currency trap at 0% and he doesn't mean that the problem is that the interest rate is too low but rather that the zero lower bound is like a minimum price control that constraints the formation of interest rates and he basically predicted what the IMF blog Said about this resulting in cash and electronic bank accounts ending up with an exchange rate between them.