How did it improve in the last 12 months?
The fact of the fiction is terrifying.
"This study investigated the driving characteristics of drivers when the system changes from autonomous driving to manual driving in the case of low driver alertness.
...
In the results, a significant difference was observed in the reaction time and the brake pedal force for brake pedal operation in the low alertness state, compared to the normal alertness state of the driver, and there were instances when the driver was unable to perform an adequate avoidance operation."
I was thinking that you feel in what kind of conditions it behave correctly (highway), low traffic and then use it in progressively more difficult situations as it prove to you it can handle them consistently.
I know it’s not ready yet. I heard as saw so many positive reviews (but still with corner cases and strange behaviours)
Yeah, that's what I mean by "dangerous".
I have defiantly seen cases where FSD Beta stopped and the driver didn't understand instantly understand why.
Or simpler cases where the car follows a lane while the driver wasn't paying attention (adjusting the radio or whatever). Those can easily lead to an accident but are unlikely to if you are in FSD.
How do you make that calculation?
The problem with systems where 99% is a failing grade, is that 99% of the time, they work great. The other 1% you die. No one is against FSD or safer tech. They are against Tesla's haphazard 2d vision-first FSD.
Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car.
The words 'road' and 'safety' should never be uttered in the the same sentence.
Um... no one died. I understand your point is hyperbole, but you're deploying it in service to what you seem to claim is serious criticism coming from experts. Which experts are claiming FSD beta killed someone? They aren't. So... maybe the "experts" aren't saying what you think they're saying?
> Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car.
And this is just laughably wrong. Street cars (because they operate on streets) get into accidents every day, often with horrifying results (because they weigh 20+ tons). They are surely safer than routine passenger cars, but by the standards you set yourself they "aren't safe" and thus must be banned, right?
I think a large issue is people are really bad at risk assessment.
Also, why the hell did they try doing camera only? Fucking dumb as hell. I would have trusted something like FSD a lot more if they had also put in very advanced radar etc. trying on fucking /cameras/ only for newer models should be a criminal offense.
When the model S was at its sales peak from 2013-2020, Lidar was still pretty expensive. So he put cameras in the original Teslas.
When Karpathy took over in 2018-ish, Tesla realized that all their advantages (dataset size, quality of researchers) was in the 2D realm. Waymo had been doing lidar for longer, seemed to have better 3d engineers & could keep upgrading lidar devices as they went.
Tesla's insistence on 2D cameras has to do with stubborn desperation more so than a willingness to play catch up. Elon needs 2D cameras to 'win' because even as early as 2019, he thought that it was too late to start playing catch up in 3D.
I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. I still have more faith in humans to not randomly brake them in beta FSD.
It’s one thing to put your own life in the hands of this beta model, and it’s another to endanger the life and property of others.
1) A car gets impatient at some traffic turning right on a green light in a construction zone, and comes into my lane meaning into oncoming traffic. We have to swerve out of the way and slam on the brakes to avoid them.
2) A guy gets impatient behind me slowing down over a speedbump, tailgates me a few inches behind and then passes me by cutting into oncoming traffic in a no passing zone, then cuts me off, again with a few inches to spare, and speeds through the neighborhood where we eventually meet at the stoplight at the end of the road.
3) Every single day people run red lights. Almost every light where there are people turning left at a green there are 4-5 cars that go through the red light after it turns.
My safety score on my tesla is 99. I am an extremely safe driver. I wish FSD was more common because so many people are terrible drivers.
https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2
And looking at the rest of the criteria, they're ok, but hardly comprehensive. This is like, the bare minimum. It doesn't measure what I would call "doing stupid shit". Like crossing several lanes of traffic to get in a turn lane. Forcibly merging where you shouldn't. Nearly stopping in the middle of traffic before merging into a turn lane at the last minute. Straddling lanes because you're not sure if you really want to change lanes or not. Making a left turn from a major artery onto a side street at a place that is not protected by a light. Coming to a near complete stop for every speed bump, then rushing ahead to the next.
And a host of other things that demonstrates the person does not consider other people on the road at all.
Here's an entire article about how to game the safety score:
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-...
One of the tips is to "drive around the neighborhood when traffic is light".
And the car doesn't ding autopilot for behaviors it would knock a human for. Because the assumption is that the car would know better I guess. But then why isn't the safety score simply a deviation from what autopilot would do in a situation? If autopilot would brake hard to avoid a collision, shouldn't you?
So maybe it's to stroke my ego? But they're also putting their proverbial money where their mouth is.
You see how that's circular, right. It does not mean you are a safe driver.
You're trying to use each of these things to validate the other so you can then claim it's something entirely else.
I think it's telling that autopilot is allowed to drive in a manner that would otherwise negatively impact your safety score. Either autopilot is unsafe or the safety score doesn't measure actual safe driving.
We are all glad your car is giving you head pats and game badges.
Tesla tracks driving style and gives you an insurance rate based on those driving habits.
My insurance rate is about $90, which is the lowest the rate goes, because the things it tracks (following distance, for one) corresponds to a lower liability risk for the insurance underwriter, which in this case, is tesla.
The monthly price is directly correlated to driving habits. You seem to be getting confused about "safety score".
I'm genuinely confused as to what about this doesn't make sense to you.
Tesla is the underwriter. They give a monthly premium based on driving habits.
Tesla is the insurer. Tesla is also the manufacturer of the insured item.
You are using as proof of the claim, the fact that the group making the claim says they're right. This is big "We've investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong" energy.
Irrespective of the Teslas or FSD:
If you're afraid of an accident due to the vehicle in front of you braking regardless of the circumstances, then you're following too closely. It doesn't matter if the braking event is anticipated or unexpected. If you're not confident in your ability to avoid an accident if the vehicle in front of you slams on their brakes then you are following to closely.
I know what you're saying, but that is not what I'd meant. Also, I don't follow too closely.
The difference here is that almost always a driver will brake depending on the happenings in front of them. So, if you pay attention to not only the car in front, but in front of them and in the neighboring lanes and so on, you can sense and also detect patterns in how a particular driver is driving. There are many skittish drivers who brake every 1 second and some don't, and so on. Basically based on your driving experience you can predict a little.
The problem here is that this stupid POC FSD will brake randomly or change lane randomly or whatever, so there is no way you can predict, and hence my concern and issue with it. I just prefer to change the lane, but that's not always an option.
Yes, we all do that AND you're using that predictability to take liberties in safety such as following too closely. FSD's unpredictability exposes the vulnerability in your driving process and makes you feel uneasy.
You (and everyone else) can follow too closely AND FSD can be an unsafe steaming pile of crap. It's not an either or situation.
“Drive like everyone else is an impatient brain dead dipshit intent on killing you”
“Also, check your mirrors constantly. “
It's nice on the freeway though.
There's solid objects on highways, too.
* Optimus cannot say bad things Elon Musk anymore.
* Added support for Donald Trump.
* Added support for The Boring Company flamethrower.
Now it's mostly Microsoft and Altman.
It's entirely possible it had more miles than 5 on the odometer when I picked it up. Officially the paperwork says 15, the associate who gave me the car said it was actually less, and the odometer isn't very prominent so I never even looked. Maybe it had 50 miles and was a reject ;). I should go check TeslaFi, since I reenabled that the day I bought the car. I confess that the only way I ever know how many miles my car has is when I see it on TeslaFi.
I'm pointing this out because he said (in italics) "substantially".
In one famous case the policy claimed that the driver was '100% not in the driver seat'. This caused a huge media storm and anti-Tesla wave.
Just recently the full report came out and stated that Tesla AP was not used at all and the drive was driving normally.
https://electrek.co/2023/02/09/tesla-cleared-highly-publiciz...
There are quite few such cases, this one maybe being the one that caused the most media attention.
So I tend to discredit all such reports unless its several months after and a full investigation report has been done.
Do you have links to verified reports of FSD causing such crashes.
It seems to me that phantom breaking could lead to such issues, but I have not yet seen a real report that claims this happened.
You're following too close to me for the conditions, you're distracted, or some combination of both.
My car might have to emergency brake for any number of reasons. This should never cause a pileup, and if it does it's your fault, not mine.
I’m the type of person who keeps a lot of car lengths between me and the car ahead like you are /supposed to/ but I’ve also had someone panic stop in from of me and, due to road conditions, I cannot stop in time and have hit them. Not hard. But did all the same.
FSD and similar aren’t magic bullets that would prevent that. People like you who seem to think they are are also part of the problem.
Would a completely automated roadway be fucking awesome for safety and productivity and relaxation? Yes. Is it going to happen anytime soon? Doubtful.
Blows my mind how many people are totally willing to risk their own safety and everyone else’s using known buggy as fuck software. On the road. At 70mph. In a 2 ton vehicle.
… but it hasn’t been an issue for you! You say. Ok.
But I also watch dumb asses lane hop with barely enough room to pass likes it’s a video game and then act surprised when they wreck. So I guess I’m giving people too much credit.
But this backlash to my comment about hard braking and wrecks is kind of hilarious.
Basically, my point is that Tesla has made egregiously bullshit claims about FSD and autopilot. They have given them misleading names. And people who want to “live in the fuuuuture” have eaten it up and are using the Teslas like they are actually capable of driving themselves 100% of the time. In all conditions.
If anything, it has made people who rely on it seemingly worse, inattentive drivers.
So while I’m glad y’all enjoy your purchased vehicle, don’t pretend all gripes and complaints lobbed at them are invalid or someone else’s fault. That’s asinine and childish.
You really just can't trust Tesla at all, about anything. There's no integrity there. They won't even be honest with the name of their headline feature!
Tesla’s statements should only be believed if they stop deliberately hiding the data from the CA DMV by declaring that FSD does not technically count as a autonomous driving system and is thus not subject to the mandatory reporting requirements for autonomous systems in development. If they did that then there could actually be a sound independent third party statements about their systems. Until that time their claims should be as trusted as Ford’s were on the Pinto.
This is why startups are allowed to project massive sales next year but Elizabeth Holmes is headed to jail.
If it turns out that FSD has had a fatal crash and Tesla lied about it Musk is headed to jail too.
We don’t live in a “just world”. There’s a reason a lower tier person like Holmes gets some prison and psychos like, say, Trump or Musk barely get a slap on the wrist.
But the company is run by an asshole who people love to hate, so... everything it does is Maximally Wrong. There's no space for reasoned discourse like "FSD isn't finished but it's very safe as deployed and amazingly fun". It's all about murder and death and moral absolutism. The internet is a terrible place, but I guess we knew that already. At least in the meantime we have a fun car to play with.
"Full self-driving" has not been delivered after years worth of lies. It isn't about "murder and death and moral absolutism". It's about fraud.
Your vehicle is a dead end. It will not be upgraded to the latest hardware. It will not attain "full self-driving".
Tesla has lied about full self-driving for years: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now...
Tesla has admitted to false advertising around full self-driving: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr...
Tesla has admitted that they have failed to deliver full self-driving. Tesla is now scrambling around trying to avoid being done for fraud: https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai...
If even Tesla can admit it, find a way to admit it to yourself.
It literally drives itself. You're hiding behind a semantic argument about what "full" means, and how autonomy is deployed. It's the "Money Printer Go Brrr...." meme.
You don't seem to be able to understand that the product as deployed has value to its purchasers, and that's leading you to some really emotionally dark places. I mean, it shouldn't be this upsetting to you that I like my car, and yet it clearly is. Just... maybe just don't? Let it go. You know these cars are safe as deployed. Let the Tesla nuts have their fun.
No, I'm "hiding" behind the truth. I'm "hiding" behind the benchmark Tesla very publically sets for itself. Every year. Year after year:
https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...
> that's leading you to some really emotionally dark places
Okay, this is just sad now. It's like a kind of Stockholm syndrome. Cult members go one of two ways when confronted with realities which contradict their beliefs: they either finally recognise the silliness of their beliefs or they become even more ardent believers.
It's better to try to find a way to be objective. You shouldn't let people con you and you certainly shouldn't propagate the lie.
I think a lot of "people" online are paid shills.
HN should severely downrank any "opinion" posts from anon accounts.
I have a Tesla with FSD and it's incredible. Though it drives way worse than me, it drives pretty darn good, and will save a ton of lives and change the world by freeing up a lot of time for people to do more important things.
Your post appears to be saying that Tesla’s FSD is less safe than human drivers, not safer than them, but we should still welcome it for the convenience. Again, this reads like a strawman, I don’t think the average Tesla owner would actually endorse that opinion.
No, I said it's way worse than me. Probably around performance of the average human driver.
I am training to be an astronaut, so on the advanced side.
You still sound like you’re trying to present the weakest possible straw man for Tesla critics to attack. Stop this bad faith attempt to make Tesla look bad; you’re dragging down the discourse. Nobody is going to take your bait and feed you the expected counter arguments to the nonsense you expressed up-thread.
I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.