> ... you run out of homes, ... you have too much stuff ... puts an upper bound on the amount of stuff in our home.

Conversation from last weekend -

"I want those brown shoes. They're so nice and fit like they're made for me"

"You're shoes are overflowing your side, into mine and now into the corridor. I think you have too many."

"I don't have any that are like boots. I want brown ones for the city.I'll wear to my $event"

"You got yellow ones last month. They look like boots"

"They're for a hike. These are for the city. I don't like being told about my shoes."

And then there were more shoes.

Same night -

"I need to donate my old clothes"

Some women care about shoes far, far more than makes sense to their husbands / boyfriends.

My several attempts to understand this have been fruitless.

This might belong on the short list of things to work around, rather than work through.

I think it's one of these personality traits you accept, even if you don't understand it.

In women's wear, shoes are not foot wear. They're an accessory.

It's nobody's fault shoes are bigger than earrings except the architect/builder who didn't accommodate that in the closet. :-)

Huh. I wish I had encountered this way of thinking sooner.

> "They're for a hike. These are for the city"

I'm a guy, and I do this, too. I have two identical pair of boots. One pair is for "clean" things, such as going to the store, the office, etc. The other pair is for "dirty" things, such as yardwork, hiking, gardening, woodworking, etc.

As my "clean" boots age and wear, I swap them out for a new pair, and the previous "clean" boots become my new "dirty" boots. It's a cycle I've been running for decades now.

The hike vs city distinction makes sense to me, regardless of gender.

We call this the OHIO system. Only Hold It Once. Don’t set things down in random spots, pick it up and it goes where it belongs.

My parents used to say, “don’t put it down, put it away.”

Now here I am a middle-aged man, still reminding myself, “don’t put it down, put it away.”

So you don’t have a junk drawer? We have a junk drawer and it is the home for packing tape, scissors, flashlight, batteries, etc…

Packing tape in the workshop. Scissors in the knife block. Paper scissors in the craft cupboard. Other scissors in the "office" (there's a fun battle between what are craft supplies and what are office supplies). Batteries in the battery/charger cupboard in my office (hugely popular for all the kids toys). Flashlights are in the workshop (big Ryobi ones), kids rooms (small toy flashlights that look like ladybugs), and in the cars.

We DO have a "junk drawer" but it's really just a "assorted kitchen stuff" drawer. You'll find birthday candles, matches, elastics, twist ties, etc. but that's their home.

Super fun semantics talk because we love semantics: maybe your junk drawer isn't a junk drawer? Maybe you know exactly what's there and why. Homes are of all different sizes and maybe that works perfectly because you don't need things like a battery cupboard.

Packing tape goes in the adhesives drawer in the garage/shop.

I hang them on a pegboard. My adhesives are woefully inadequate to deserve a drawer... gosh I wish...

I have three adhesive draws and they certainly don't have room for tape.

You only have a (single) junk drawer??? :-)

What? That is the utilities draw! The junk draw is for the small white elephant statue recieved from a white elephant years ago, the plate from an old car that was totaled, and a stray n64 controller.

The draw?

I can't help but hear that in a northeastern accent like from the folks from This Old House :)

I had several such drawers. My fiancée hipped me to the label maker. Now a drawer that has some loose thematically linked bunch of crap in it instead has exactly this list of things in it where that list is enumerated on the front of the drawer. For instance I had put safety pins, sharpies, a sewing kit, scissors and stain removal pens in a Sterilite drawer together. These were loosely thematically linked along the lines of "have to do with fabric." The drawer was maybe 1/3 full and I don't have a ton of space for more drawers. I put my many spare AA, AAA, CR2032 batteries in there because they'd really be wasting space in a drawer on their own. Suddenly the loose thematic link is severed! It's become a junk drawer!! But if you put a label on the front with everything I've written in this comment, it becomes the drawer that is home to exactly these items. You can put another item not on the list in it, you just need to add a label!

This blew my mind wide open. Absolutely game changing. The space works for us, not the other way around!!

I just bought a used laptop on impulse last week, and it still has no home. It's driving me nuts. It's sitting next to me right now. And because it's pre-usb-c, the charger needs a home too. I have about 30 large bins in the garage for things without homes, and that may be its fate, unfortunately.

I don’t know your use-case, but a laptop’s “home” at home would be your laptop bag - or - a docking-station on your desk - use your desktop PC, on a desk, while at home; while your laptop bag’s hone would be on a coathook in your mudroom or closet - or a designated (and maintained) spot by the door.

Get a cafeteria tray and put the laptop on that. Homing items is mostly about dividing and binding space, and the tray acts to bundle any accessories or project parts, while also dividing it from the room.

> Note that this could all easily sound super hardcore but it's not. It's just a general guide we have. We aren't forcing our kids to throw excess toys away and we're not writing a book about it. A flexible tool to guide behaviour, not enforce it.

I was having a hard time thinking about what I'm doing wrong, but I think this is close enough. I'm so inspired to steal some variant of this disclaimer especially this part: "We aren't forcing x to do y and we're not writing a book about it."

It's also going to vary greatly based on the individual. Some people have homes that look like ocean going ships, with nothing that's not permanently attached or stowed neatly away. Others have shit everywhere. Both scenarios are fine if you're comfortable with living that way.

It's good to be somewhere in the middle because then no one is angry when the process breaks down every so often. Now I know someone is going to say that the process won't break down because I AM IN CHARGE and monitoring the process. And that's exactly why it's good to be in the middle. :)

Heh, reading this I can’t help but think of how different the perception of what your kids are feeling is vs what they’re actually feeling.

“This is great for the kids!” Maybe! Or, equally plausibly it’s annoying, but they don’t tell you.

Yesterday we asked 4yo if he wanted this rack of plastic bins for toys in his room. He was so eager that he wanted to carry it himself. Once up there, he began dismantling his current system and excitedly placing toys into the new bins while singing to himself.

The first thing that comes to mind is how to communicate this without people thinking, "oh those poor kids, they've been brainwashed into being neat freaks." I guess the answer comes in: 5yo is not like this and that's fine. Their rooms are usually a mess because they're kids. And our house is usually a disaster because we have kids and are tired. Just because everything has a home, doesn't mean we're perfect about it... far from it. The kitchen would usually horrify you.

The kids genuinely love it because when they ask to get out the slime or do arts and crafts, and we say, "but first you have to clean up your other toys," that's a task they are 100% capable of doing themselves. It gives them agency.

> The kids genuinely love it because when they ask to get out the slime or do arts and crafts, and we say, "but first you have to clean up your other toys," that's a task they are 100% capable of doing themselves. It gives them agency.

Haha, your world is going to be rocked in two decades, when your kid casually mentions something you thought they “loved” but really thought was stupid. It’s almost like you’ve forgotten your own childhood!

I disagree with this with some caveats. I find that specific memory as a child (parents mistaking something you hate as something you enjoyed) to actually reflect the amount of open communication and mutual listening of parent/child. My parents rarely listened to me, so I went with learned helplessness, and my consent was mistaken as enjoyment. But I know of other families where preferences were listened to and became the bedrock of having a trusting relationship with parental units.

Parents are incapable of knowing what their kids like and dislike? I'm feeling a sorrowful empathy for where this line of reasoning might come from.

It's a well known problem[0][1] with accepting parental assertions around their child's health. That's why kids are often given time alone with their doctor, to express feelings they wouldn't otherwise feel comfortable about. Additionally, it's been shown that a parent is not great at objectively evaluating their child's emotional state or place in the world. [2]

It's even got an entry in TVTropes![3]

But why would you have a "sorrowful empathy" because I have a passing knowledge about childhood and children? You can't seriously think you're going to always know what your children are thinking or that they're even being entirely straightforward with you now, can you? Surely they have their own lives by now even a little bit, some space for their own that you're not involved in and don't know about.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15473508/

[1] https://archive.nytimes.com/parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...

[2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201407/parents-j...

[3] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoesntKnowTheirO...

A well known problem? An article saying "Some parents have limited knowledge concerning their children's OHRQoL.", a new york times article, a psychology today article and a tvtropes page? This is extremly light evidence. You can defend anything with a vaguely related study and a few press articles.

I don't personally believe in learning about anything from HN, only of things, so at this point if you want to know more I recommend talking to a pediatrician, as I'm not an expert and may (unintentionally) mislead, misdirect, or misinterpret.

Maybe it's not well known! Maybe it's extremely rare! Maybe I've got biases! Who knows, I certainly wouldn't. You have no idea what my qualifications are, what my expertise is, and generally there are no social consequences for me spouting nonsense, so there are not a lot of good reasons to listen to whatever my argument may be, right or wrong.

-If my kids are anything to go by, no worries: If it annoys them, they'll tell you. Repeatedly.

Or worse:

Even if they really liked it and adopted it, then they would not be able to cause chaos and destruction, to embrace disorder, noise, unpredictability of things (both physical and social/abstract). This would be to their disadvantage.

Too much order, not allowing for chaos is _not_ good for kids. Ways of chaos and destruction should be welcome. Order should be welcome. Walking lightly between the two, while maintaining contact _and_ giving kids freedom is not an easy task, I think.

The problem with online discussions is that people project their own perceptions onto what it all looks like. Their rooms are never clean. Having a home for everything helps, but whatever you're picturing... it's likely wrong. This house is a mess because it's lived in.

I am not trying to picture your home in any negative way or suggest anything to you in any way. I read your whole comment, incl. last paragraph. What I was trying to say was more of a general comment on how delicate (and beneficial) is to have access to different kinds of energies, allowing order and disorder, and how going too much to either side can have long lasting, far reaching consequences. That going too far, even playfully, in one direction ("in this home _everything_ has its own place") sets contexts far more reaching than one could imagine.

To add to this, I have a dedicated place for almost anything, as I code things rather spatially than visually, so I think it's great. I just think it is important to leave lots of freedom for kids. It's like difference between "I see you did not put all things away today" vs. "How are you doing in 'everything needs to have a home' department, today?"

All the best!

In my 20s I had a roommate and we kept having arguments with use of space. I would interpret his leaving new purchases just wherever as laziness or not caring. I'd hand it to him, and tell him to put it away, and it'd be left somewhere else randomly.

I eventually realised he bought things without thinking about where to put them, when he got home with it. So it just sort of would get abandoned wherever. There was no assigned "away" for him, and I was assuming there was. Baffling, but at least it wasn't passive-aggressive like I had thought. Some of my habits eventually wore off on him, thankfully.

A related theme is: I don't have anywhere to put this even after thinking about it -- then you probably have too much stuff!

Yeah, I hd never even heard of this idea until probably my 30s.

And it took much longer until I realized it's actually not silly.

Now I try to live this way, with limited but increasing success.

Had the same situation. I'd forever be asking, "what's your plan for this or that item that's just lying around clearly not put away?" because that's how I approach it. There wasn't a plan, it was all spontaneous, willy nilly. We made it work, but I've found it's far less draining to simply find a roommate, now it's a significant other, who operates similarly to me.

> A related theme is: I don't have anywhere to put this even after thinking about it -- then you probably have too much stuff!

I seldom run into the problem of not having anywhere to put something. On the other hand, I often run into the problem of being unsure of how best to categorize something so that I can decide where it should belong.

I too prefer to group related items together when I'm organizing drawers or storage compartments of any kind, and if an item has no similar items to live with, it ends up orphaned on a counter or surface somewhere, ultimately risking itself ending up in a junk drawer.

But if it's an extra pair of glasses or something fragile, you don't want it getting tossed around other things like metal tools or otherwise damaging things.

Other times, I leave things out of place in the open deliberately to remind myself to do something. This could be placing a bill or usually other paper items right at the end of the dinner table to force myself to remember taking care of it. Another example is leaving a cardboard box near the front door to recycle it later. It's intended to ugly up my space to bug me and take care of it.

So, I often use my physical space as a natural to-do list of sorts. Works well!

I've run into this. It's tough because the answer I might arrive at ("I don't have a place to store this, so I shouldn't buy it") is often not well received by people you live with as it comes across as you trying to dictate what they can and cannot buy.

>A related theme is: I don't have anywhere to put this even after thinking about it -- then you probably have too much stuff!

or not enough clear surfaces x)

"I eventually realised he bought things without thinking about where to put them"

Ok, learned something. I never think about where anything will be placed when I buy them. I basically hope that I can move stuff and it will fit. No wonder my place is always messy. I know this is basic but I never even thought about it. Live and learn... Thx!

I agree with this 100% but I struggle with finding homes for everything. I feel like I need more furniture with drawers or cupboards. It's creating the storage space that I struggle with.

My too, but the only thing that helped was making storage spaces for a type of thing, and when the space designated overflows, something has to be tossed.

I want to recommend the boxes system called "Pretty useful box" to you. For years now that stuff solved the problem again and again.

https://reallyusefulproducts.co.uk/usa/

I have a TON of small components and tools, and maybe my system could be helpful:

I keep several shelves full of stacking storage boxes in my garage. I’ve given each of these a unique number, written in permanent marker on the front face and lid of each. I chuck things mostly randomly in whatever box has some space, and then I track those newly added/removed items in a spreadsheet (more specifically, I just use a text file and treat the line numbers as the respective bin number — primitive, but works better for my workflow than something like Google Sheets).

I’ve found that trying to keep an immense inventory “organized” is too daunting (what happens if I overflow one bin — do I dedicate an entire bin to the one or two items that wouldn’t fit, leaving this bin mostly empty? Ugh!), and the only real utility with keeping things categorically collocated is to retrieve/store items efficiently anyway — by introducing a layer of indirection, I get the end result I’m looking for with a fraction of the work.

A hash map for physical storage, that’s fascinating!

Ever bought something from ikea? Located in aisle 32, shelf 5, by chance? :-) it’s a well established concept

yeah, buying organizational furniture is helpful. Those metal shelves from ikea are great, stack plastic containers on them and it’s not even too expensive to fill a closet like this

If I followed this rule I wouldn't own a thing, the perks of living in a small room.

I think a lot of people would be a lot happier in life if they got rid of half their crap. Then in 6 months get rid of half of what is left. It is a hard battle but I keep trying to get rid of more and more stuff and it is so nice to walk into a storage shed that is more and more empty. Everything remaining is needed and there is no hunting or looking for things as everything is easily accessible.

I recently read an account from someone who manages a chemistry(?) lab that's used by multiple teams of people. He'd spent years trying to come up with the perfect storage system, only to realize that the only thing that consistently works is to reduce inventory.

I've been applying that to my own life lately, and I think he's right.

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." --Thomas Edison

I have a lot of stuff, probably too much. Some of it I haven't touched in years but only a relatively small portion of it would I consider getting rid of. I tend to go through cycles of interests where I will work on some category of thing for a few months and produce a few items and then I'll exhaust my creativity in the matter and leave it to lie fallow. Later on I'll pick up the pursuit again and I happily have everything I need to hand. Nothing is worse than being in the midst of making something and realizing you haven't got the part you need, you're left with a few options: to buy it, scavenge it, or make it; all of which take time and effort away from the thing you are working on.

The minimalist life may appeal to some, I can understand the sentiment. I've spent holidays away from home in a serenely empty cabin with nothing but nature and a book. It's pleasant but it grows tiresome after a while and I yearn to be back in the shed, tinkering and building.

I'm much the same, I've been down to having my whole life fit in a backpack and currently am spread all over a three bedroom house. Too much space and, strangely, too much organization make me anxious long term.

I find my ad hoc organizational style is by far the most effective for me. It's like a LIFO data structure. The most frequently used items (phone, laptop, TV remote) are in the easiest to reach places. My beach and fishing stuff are near the door in the summer, the salt and shovel make their way there in the winter.

I think people with the rotational-evolving quality tend to organize things in time rather than space, which doesn't look right to most people who think the other way around.

I have one friend whose house is basically probably a candidate for one of the hoarders shows. Then my dad and brother are both basically of the nothing out of place school.

I tend to be the Goldilocks principle. I do get rid of things that I know I'll never use--especially if they're bulky. But I don't mind keeping things around that I may get back into someday. Or want for the occasional thing. And I can keep some magazines and piles of books lying around, seasonal clothing piles, travel stuff grab boxes, etc. laying around without them taking over. If people were coming over, I might spend an hour tidying up but it's a happy medium for me for the most part.

You're coming at this the wrong way, the solution is build more sheds.

> everything needs to have a home

Does it count if everything goes into one big box?

Or if I just declare the living room as the home for my stuff?

At that point, you've successfully outsmarted yourself.

Which means you've just built the smartest thing you're capable of, and are thus incapable of debugging it.

"everything needs to have a home."

This, absolutely.

My housemates (a couple) have this problem. Since others having moved out, they seem to have expanded to fill any available space in the house.

They take up more cupboard and bench space around the house then the additional 2 people did before.

Makes it challenging in a house to find space when you need it, if it's already filled simply because there was a free space.

If anyone does want to read a book about it, I'm listening to "Decluttering at the speed of life" and it hits this concept pretty well. Really helped me shift my mindset.