Yesterday we asked 4yo if he wanted this rack of plastic bins for toys in his room. He was so eager that he wanted to carry it himself. Once up there, he began dismantling his current system and excitedly placing toys into the new bins while singing to himself.

The first thing that comes to mind is how to communicate this without people thinking, "oh those poor kids, they've been brainwashed into being neat freaks." I guess the answer comes in: 5yo is not like this and that's fine. Their rooms are usually a mess because they're kids. And our house is usually a disaster because we have kids and are tired. Just because everything has a home, doesn't mean we're perfect about it... far from it. The kitchen would usually horrify you.

The kids genuinely love it because when they ask to get out the slime or do arts and crafts, and we say, "but first you have to clean up your other toys," that's a task they are 100% capable of doing themselves. It gives them agency.

> The kids genuinely love it because when they ask to get out the slime or do arts and crafts, and we say, "but first you have to clean up your other toys," that's a task they are 100% capable of doing themselves. It gives them agency.

Haha, your world is going to be rocked in two decades, when your kid casually mentions something you thought they “loved” but really thought was stupid. It’s almost like you’ve forgotten your own childhood!

I disagree with this with some caveats. I find that specific memory as a child (parents mistaking something you hate as something you enjoyed) to actually reflect the amount of open communication and mutual listening of parent/child. My parents rarely listened to me, so I went with learned helplessness, and my consent was mistaken as enjoyment. But I know of other families where preferences were listened to and became the bedrock of having a trusting relationship with parental units.

Parents are incapable of knowing what their kids like and dislike? I'm feeling a sorrowful empathy for where this line of reasoning might come from.

It's a well known problem[0][1] with accepting parental assertions around their child's health. That's why kids are often given time alone with their doctor, to express feelings they wouldn't otherwise feel comfortable about. Additionally, it's been shown that a parent is not great at objectively evaluating their child's emotional state or place in the world. [2]

It's even got an entry in TVTropes![3]

But why would you have a "sorrowful empathy" because I have a passing knowledge about childhood and children? You can't seriously think you're going to always know what your children are thinking or that they're even being entirely straightforward with you now, can you? Surely they have their own lives by now even a little bit, some space for their own that you're not involved in and don't know about.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15473508/

[1] https://archive.nytimes.com/parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...

[2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201407/parents-j...

[3] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoesntKnowTheirO...

A well known problem? An article saying "Some parents have limited knowledge concerning their children's OHRQoL.", a new york times article, a psychology today article and a tvtropes page? This is extremly light evidence. You can defend anything with a vaguely related study and a few press articles.

I don't personally believe in learning about anything from HN, only of things, so at this point if you want to know more I recommend talking to a pediatrician, as I'm not an expert and may (unintentionally) mislead, misdirect, or misinterpret.

Maybe it's not well known! Maybe it's extremely rare! Maybe I've got biases! Who knows, I certainly wouldn't. You have no idea what my qualifications are, what my expertise is, and generally there are no social consequences for me spouting nonsense, so there are not a lot of good reasons to listen to whatever my argument may be, right or wrong.

-If my kids are anything to go by, no worries: If it annoys them, they'll tell you. Repeatedly.

Or worse:

Even if they really liked it and adopted it, then they would not be able to cause chaos and destruction, to embrace disorder, noise, unpredictability of things (both physical and social/abstract). This would be to their disadvantage.

Too much order, not allowing for chaos is _not_ good for kids. Ways of chaos and destruction should be welcome. Order should be welcome. Walking lightly between the two, while maintaining contact _and_ giving kids freedom is not an easy task, I think.

The problem with online discussions is that people project their own perceptions onto what it all looks like. Their rooms are never clean. Having a home for everything helps, but whatever you're picturing... it's likely wrong. This house is a mess because it's lived in.

I am not trying to picture your home in any negative way or suggest anything to you in any way. I read your whole comment, incl. last paragraph. What I was trying to say was more of a general comment on how delicate (and beneficial) is to have access to different kinds of energies, allowing order and disorder, and how going too much to either side can have long lasting, far reaching consequences. That going too far, even playfully, in one direction ("in this home _everything_ has its own place") sets contexts far more reaching than one could imagine.

To add to this, I have a dedicated place for almost anything, as I code things rather spatially than visually, so I think it's great. I just think it is important to leave lots of freedom for kids. It's like difference between "I see you did not put all things away today" vs. "How are you doing in 'everything needs to have a home' department, today?"

All the best!