Use "it" if someone specifically requests that "it" be used to refer to them. Don't if they do not.
Exception not the rule, but made me giggle reading your comment.
Yes, calling someone “it” has been a ridiculously offensive thing to do in my life experience.
Edit: I suspect the answer differs from person to person.
(Die/der/das are genders).
ドイツ語はぜんぜんわからない
(wa should be ga. wa means German is the subject that is doing the not-understanding.)
I do not.
Edit: After further reading は seems to work fine. In this case I think both work but が places greater emphasis on the german language being the thing not understood. で however was totally incorrect :P. But due to the tacit nature of informal Japanese I think the context already informed the reader who doesn't understand what.
Either way, は is fine in this sentence to the best of my understanding. It marks ドイツ語 as the subject, and thus the thing being understood.
If they demand dixyzx?
What if they demand custom declensions on verbs that involve them?
Another pretty elegant solution I've found if there's too much confusion amongst our team is to suggest people switch to learning Hungarian which doesn't have gendered pronouns. A few years of intense study is a small price to pay so that we can avoid the catastrophic mistakes of accidentally calling someone who's not in the room the wrong gender
It's not randomly dehumanization, the neuter gender that the pronoun system preserves has always communicated inanimacy (read: nonhuman-ness) against the masc/fem animate genders. Etymologically, this distinction has been more primitive than the masc/fem distinction. One feature of the neuter gender is the use of the object form in languages that distinguish it from the subject form, hence he/him, she/her, but it/it.
Yes, including being a human
Hasn’t it always been the case that you could use “they” as a way to refer to a singular human without implying any gender?
I seem to recall that “they” has been in use in that manner long before non-binary arguments were something I’d heard about.
Yes, since Shakespearean times.
For example: "I saw someone walking down the street the other day, they were carrying a guitar" -> a normal use of they as the 3rd person singular pronoun.
Here's an article with details [1].
The problem of what pronoun to use for someone who is neither male or female is not new, of course. That article says:
> There have always been people who didn’t conform to an expected gender expression, or who seemed to be neither male nor female. But we’ve struggled to find the right language to describe these people—and in particular, the right pronouns. In the 17th century, English laws concerning inheritance sometimes referred to people who didn’t fit a gender binary using the pronoun it, which, while dehumanizing, was conceived of as being the most grammatically fit answer to gendered pronouns around then
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbi...
If you mean "no" in the sense that this specific sentence isn't true:
> Hasn’t it always been the case that you could use “they” as a way to refer to a singular human without implying any gender?
then you are mistaken, as sibling comments point out. Certainly there is a history of teaching people not to use singular 'they' (I don't know how long, but I was certainly taught it), but people have actually been using singular 'they' for a long, long time, and usage trumps fiat at least in English.
I learned a lot of wrong things in school. One could say I have spent most of my adult life unlearning them. Welcome to the club.
Consider also James Loewen's classic book, too: https://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything-dp-16...
I'm not sure I agree with that argument, but it got me to think. It blends the linguistic and the philosophical.
Semantically, the difference in their singular use (prior to very recent evolutions) is that they was rarely used for specific known humams, and it was never uses for humans (but frequently for living things with sex and to whom grammatical gender corresponding to sex could also be used, in cases where the sex was unknown or unimportant, similar to the use of “they” for humans.)
So, while I find the idea of “they” as gender neutral but “it” as emphatically ungendered conceptuallt interesting, I don't really think it reflects historical usage differences.
OTOH, I suppose there could be debate about different presumptions of social gender vs grammatical gender here, too.
English doesn't have grammatical gender so this statement seems questionable to me, but that's a nitpick.
This one’s that gender, this one’s neutral gender, this one’s genderless… who cares.
If gender or plurality is key to the sentence we can add a word.
I like how in Indonesian to make a word plural you double it: pencil pencil = multiple pencils
Can we come up with a pronoun that literally means “the being or beings in question” without commenting on gender or plurality?
Of all the most useful projects to humanity (diverting asteroids, developing free energy, curing cancers, solving childhood poverty, etc) in any top-3 list I'd put "having a single common language that is super-simple to learn and master and which everybody is taught from childhood".
Let's not change English or French then, but leave them as "classical" languages, but teach kids the new easy/expressive/explicit one. No gendered nouns, no phrasal verbs, no reported speech markers, etc.
Completing this initiative makes all the other ones easier to complete. And it's not like it's much more complicated than the other complicated things we donate to and try to push forward every year.
I've got no issue with people wanting to use different pronouns, though usually I try to keep it neutral in conversation anyway. "They/their" is extremely easy to use without much thought.
Australia is a country where you call your mates "cunt" and call cunts "mate".
I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that's true in the Northern half* of the country that people think applies everywhere, like crocodiles and jellyfish that kill you. I've lived in SA and Vic all my life and all my friends would just be insulted if I called them cunt instead of mate.
* "Northern Half" of course meaning above the Barassi Line and probably adding the NT, not the real geographic north.
The point of gendered pronouns is that sentences very often have two nouns: a subject and object. If you have only a single pronoun, then any sentence can only use a pronoun to unambiguously refer to one of those. If you have two pronouns and you randomly and evenly distribute them across various subjects, then it's fairly likely that the subject and object will get difference ones and you can now unambiguously use pronouns for both.
Since a very large fraction of human speech pertains to other humans and since human sex is a roughly 50/50 distribution, it makes some sense that we used gender as our mostly arbitrary thing to assign a pair of pronouns too. We could have used, say handedness instead, but with only ~10% of people being left-handed, the odds of a sentence being about a righty and a lefty is much smaller.
Pronouns are basically like special variables in a REPL that let you refer to the most recent expression. It's nice if you can refer back to a couple of them.
Hence why forcing my team to learn Hungarian has really been a no brainer and will really start to pay dividends in the next decade when we finally reach a working professional proficiency
No, that's not the point. (Most languages do make subject/object fairly clear.)
The point of pronouns is to have a short alias to refer to a previously introduced noun.
Though now that I think about it age is also potent - you get the same rough division w.r.t relative age (younger vs older than the speaker), and you can divide the population roughly into quarters with ease and accuracy. Do miss and ma'am count as pronouns here? They code for age as well as gender
Hair color and height dont really have the same sort of dividing power broadly speaking.
Still, your line of thought there about what a pronoun should capture is intriguing.
Some people may prefer a different name but I think they’ll understand once we explain the cognitive load.
> cynical user of a tool of coercive soft-power
> weapon masquerading as a new morality
Take with a grain of salt, but I feel like you have stronger emotions on this issue than the trans and non-binary people I know.
This has got to be peak hacker news
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What? I agree that for my tastes a lot of people take gender very seriously. But it seems wild to me to think this is somehow a new phenomenon.
For millennia in many societies one's society-assigned gender determined a great deal about one's status, including what work you could do, what work you could do, and what sort of violence against you was acceptable. And in a lot of times and places, misgendering somebody was used as a deliberate insult and could even be seen as "fighting words", legitimate legal cause for violence.
The only thing that has changed lately is a bit of individual freedom in picking that role for one's self. For those people, many consider it rude to ignore their choices, partly because of the history of gender, but partly because those people are targets of bigotry and violence. There's a whole list! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_bein...
All moral codes have a "coercive" element to them, just like all legal codes do. If you're going to be rude, people may, gasp, say something about it. You trying to establish a different coercive moral code against that isn't somehow better. And getting all het up about it in this specific case, instead of all the other codes of politeness, suggests it's not really "coercive" morality you care about.
Personally, it seems to me that trans folks have a pretty hard role in life. They always did, but now at least they're getting to be open about it. I'm glad to support them in that; calling them how they want to be called seems like literally the least I could do. Indeed, as a thoroughgoing nerd, I spent a lot of my childhood getting shit on for being different, so I'm happy to help make space for different kinds of difference.
Ah yes, censorship is good when it is an opinion you do not share, right? That I was flagged is wrong on the part of hacker news, and whoever got that ball rolling.
>All moral codes have a "coercive" element to them
Coercion is good too. Are you sure you're not the baddie here? Are you really sure?
>as a thoroughgoing nerd, I spent a lot of my childhood getting shit on for being different, so I'm happy to help make space for different kinds of difference.
Another popular strawman. I stated explicitly "live how you want" and yet you assert that I'm against difference or outcasts. You lied.
>trans folks have a pretty hard role in life
I'm speaking specifically of custom pronouns. If you cut off your junk and wear a dress, I think its rude not to call you "she". It is a shitty kind of idea that encourages people to introduce new error modes into their relationships, and the bitter irony is you think you're doing people a favor by doing that.
You only see dead posts if you have showdead=yes in your settings.
So you may have seen their comment before it was killed, or you may have showdead=yes in your settings.
>Anyone who doesn't have the capacity to accept being called any pronoun has a mental health problem.
By this metric the vast majority of humanity has a mental health problem, and you're an exception. Most cis, het men do not like to be called she or a girl.
Gender identity is an essential part of what makes us human. Some people have a stronger sense of it than others. To the extent that mental illness describes an actual objective thing, having a gender identity does not make someone mentally ill, because it doesn't by itself disrupt one's healthy functioning in society. It is when that gender identity is invalidated by others that it can affect people's mental health (just like calling someone a slur or insulting them can affect their mental health). It is still not an illness, though.
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>At least it got flagged!
Ah yes, censorship is good when it is an opinion you do not share, right? That I was flagged is wrong on the part of hacker news, and whoever got that ball rolling.
>All moral codes have a "coercive" element to them
Coercion is good too. Are you sure you're not the baddie here? Are you really sure?
>as a thoroughgoing nerd, I spent a lot of my childhood getting shit on for being different, so I'm happy to help make space for different kinds of difference.
Another popular strawman. I stated explicitly "live how you want" and yet you assert that I'm against difference or outcasts. You lied.
>trans folks have a pretty hard role in life
I'm speaking specifically of custom pronouns. If you cut off your junk and wear a dress, I think its rude not to call you "she". It is a shitty kind of idea that encourages people to introduce new error modes into their relationships, and the bitter irony is you think you're doing people a favor by doing that.
Trans and nonbinary people are using this as a shibboleth to determine whether they can feel safe around you. You are not someone who wishes nonbinary or trans people harm, but unfortunately, there is a large segment of the population that does. The act of using someone's preferred pronouns is an act of saying "you are safe with me, I do not wish you harm." This is not a default or automatic assumption they can make, as it likely is for you.
Many trans and nonbinary people, through no fault of their own, have PTSD from how they've been treated by others. Even those that have not experienced hatred or violence directly are no doubt aware of the statistics.[0] You're correct that, in many cases, this is a mental health problem. It's an accommodation for a colleague or friend that needs your help, for now.
My problem with any of this switching around is that since it's used by a very small minority in a very forced way, until it becomes mainstream in the way 'you' has become mainstream, it's confusing af.
I've had multiple instances when a they was mentioned in a decision and I had to ask, " wait I thought we only had one designer on this ticket who else got added... Oh you're using singular they.. got it"
I suppose it could be considered similar to Spanish and French where you have "you" (peers) and then formal "you" (authorities).
Do you know what website you’re on and the type of people that frequent it?
Have you ever actually read an assortment of the things Paul Graham has written?
It’s deeply unsettling how disgusting & embarrassing of a statement this is from you - I now better understand the viewpoint of a popular Trans tinkerer that often makes the front page (from others linking to their work) of HN, who subsequently goes “fuck HN, I hate HN” every time.
Gross.
But she is literally living the insane stereotype that gives LGBTQ individuals a bad name; an "attention whore" to use the customary Internet parlance.
You are way out of line here, you don't get to decide how other people present themselves online and tying their persona to their gender or sexual identity is an outright stereotype/slur.