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Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by andai on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:48AM (#34389780)
> it seems it is most further ahead of the mainstream OSes

Noob here, I recall often hearing that iOS has superior security to Android. Has this situation reversed in the last few years, or was it never true?

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by bo1024 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:02AM (#34389898)
Maybe you're thinking of privacy, not security?

In terms of privacy, Android is "compromised" by default, i.e. Google collects and stores a ton of private information about you. I believe Apple used to be much better, and still is, but getting worse.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by jacooper on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:49AM (#34390228)
Both are one the same level at this point.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by aio2 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:11AM (#34390434)
It seems before, Apple was trying to gain a monopoly. Now that it has enough users, it turns to tracking.

However, this is a speculation, so please take it as a grain of salt.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by jacooper on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:29AM (#34390596)
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by fsflover on Sunday January 15, 2023 @02:27PM (#34392335)
Not the same, but similar enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by doc_gunthrop on Sunday January 15, 2023 @02:25PM (#34392307)
> In terms of privacy, Android is "compromised" by default, i.e. Google collects and stores a ton of private information about you.

Apple also does the same. Also, this only applies if you're running an Android device "out-of-the-box". Fortunately, there exist AOSP forks that mitigate this type of intrusion (e.g. GrapheneOS).

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by roydivision on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:06AM (#34398138)
Apple may collect some minimal information, but the crucial difference is that that data is not the basis of Apple's business model.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lrem on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:57AM (#34389854)
Isn’t most of the value here in not allowing sideloading? In iOS your grandma/child cannot be tricked into clicking “allow apps from untrusted sources”, which is how most breaches happen.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by gkbrk on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:00AM (#34389882)
If the apps sandboxed, how can installing an app cause breaches? As far as I know, iOS apps are sandboxed.

Either the sandbox is very weak and Apple instead relies on App Store audits, or they disallow users installing apps outside the app store to protect their 30% tax that makes them a LOT of money.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lrem on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:12AM (#34389961)
When you’re tricked into installing a nasty app, you’re likely also tricked into giving it whatever permissions it needs for the nastiness.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by phyphy on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:39AM (#34390688)
Which is not the fault of the OS
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by fragmede on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:46AM (#34390751)
who's fault is it then, if not the OS? that's basically the os's job; to isolate and manage the system's resources and access to them therin
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by qu4z-2 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @05:59PM (#34394592)
At the direction of the device owner, though.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by fragmede on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:44AM (#34390732)
the malicious app, even signed off the app store could also exploit unpublished vulnerabilities to gain elevated access and not require asking for permission. even or especially if it's not a full sandbox escape.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by Consultant32452 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:05AM (#34389920)
The sandboxes are regularly breached. Basically any time you hear about people "rooting" their phones, that's an intentional sandbox breach.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by charcircuit on Sunday January 15, 2023 @04:31PM (#34393686)
Not always. Unlocking the bootloader doesn't breach the sandbox since it factory resets the device.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by rkachowski on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:06AM (#34390383)
Is that true? the process of sideloading and running a 3rd party app is pretty far from simple, trivial or even easy to explain to a grandma / child.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by abirch on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:19AM (#34390495)
I think Apple will have to allow different stores in Europe soon. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by transpute on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:51AM (#34389802)
> Running blobs traditionally run in higher exception levels (like ARM EL2) in a restricted, mutually untrusted VM

The pKVM hypervisor is new to Android 13 and Pixel 7, which are a few months old.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by milkey_mouse on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:48PM (#34396235)
pKVM (theoretically) works on Pixel 6, 6 Pro, and 6a as well.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lrvick on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:28AM (#34390065)
iOS is a proprietary OS making security research unreasonably difficult with new setbacks on every new version. It can only be regarded as reasonably private and secure if you trust the Apple marketing team.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by ghostpepper on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:33AM (#34390107)
My understanding is that Apple has gotten a lot better about this with their bug bounty payouts and providing debug hardware to researchers, and it’s not like there’s not a ton of proprietary code running on most consumer android devices.

I would also assume the fact that their vertical integration all the way down to silicon is an advantage here as well.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lrvick on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:44AM (#34390196)
In Android you at least have the choice to run a fully open source OS and open source apps, albeit with some driver blobs.

With the exception of the blobs, everything on Android is auditable.

Meanwhile very little of MacOS or iOS is auditable.

Personally I do not use or trust any of the above, but if forced to choose Android is worlds ahead of iOS in terms of publicly auditable privacy and security.

You cannot form reasonable confidence something is secure unless it can be readily audited by yourself or capable unbiased third parties of your choosing. This means source code availability is a hard requirement for any security claims. Even if you had teams de-compile everything you could never keep up with updates.

Not all open source code is secure, but all secure code is open source.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by aio2 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:14AM (#34390458)
What @Irvick is talking about is the fact that you have more freedom to test the security in an Android than in iOS, such as being able to flash other systems.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by Godel_unicode on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:17AM (#34390482)
Better, sure. A lot better? Definitely not.

The bug bounty is pretty hard to actually get access to, there’s still no source outside of the kernel, and the Security Research Devices are really hard to get access to. You have to be someone they’ve heard of, in a country they approve of, you can’t move the device around, and you have to sign your life away to get it for 12* months.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by ccouzens on Sunday January 15, 2023 @12:56PM (#34391383)
The price of an Android zero day has been slightly higher than the price of an iOS zero day since late 2019. Make of that what you like https://zerodium.com/program.html

I suspect remarkably few people are qualified to objectively say which is more secure. If you're an expert on one, you're unlikely to be an expert on the other.

Security is multidimensional. It's unlikely there will be a platform that's more secure from every possible angle. What's secure for you might not be secure for a less technical person, or a world traveler.