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Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by helf on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:29PM (#33791264)
The fact so much hardware these days is running a full real-time OS all the time annoys me. I know it is normal and understandable but everything is such a black box and it has already caused headaches (looking at you, Intel).
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by dist1ll on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:38PM (#33791375)
There's this great USENIX talk by Timothy Roscoe [1], which is part of the Enzian Team at ETH Zürich.

It's about the dominant unholistic approach to modern operating system design, which is reflected in the vast number of independent, proprietary, under-documented RTOSes running in tandem, and eventually leading to uninspiring and lackluster OS research.

[1] https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by lbotos on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:40PM (#33791408)
Also one by Bryan Cantrill recently around the stack of black boxes:

https://www.osfc.io/2022/talks/i-have-come-to-bury-the-bios-...

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by est31 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:13PM (#33791809)
I think making it harder to build an OS by increasing its scope is not going to help people to build Linux alternatives.

As for the components, at least their interfaces are standardized. You can remove memory sticks by manufacturer A and replace them with memory sticks from manufacturer B without problem. Same goes for SATA SSDs or mice or keyboards.

Note that I'm all in favour of creating OSS firmware for devices, that's amazing. But one should not destroy the fundamental boundary between the OS and the firmware that runs the hardware.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by dist1ll on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:28PM (#33792041)
Building an OS is hard. There's no way around its complexity. But closing your eyes and pretending everything is a file is a security disaster waiting to happen (actually, happening every day).

And furthermore, OS research is not only about building Linux alternatives. There are a lot of operating systems that have a much narrower focus than full-blown multi-tenant GPOS. So building holistic systems with a narrower focus is a much more achievable goal.

> As for the components, at least their interfaces are standardized

That's not true once you step into SoC land. Components are running walled-garden firmware and binary blobs that are undocumented. There's just no incentive to provide a developer platform if no one gives a shit about holistic OSes in the first place.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by MisterTea on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:49PM (#33792323)
> But closing your eyes and pretending everything is a file is a security disaster waiting to happen (actually, happening every day).

What is this in response to? GP never mentioned file interfaces.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Godel_unicode on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:18PM (#33792678)
Sure they did, they talked about the abstractions present in Linux.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by MisterTea on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @12:29PM (#33804154)
I'd like to know why they believe this.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:01PM (#33793242)
> But closing your eyes and pretending everything is a file is a security disaster waiting to happen (actually, happening every day).

How so? I can see the limited access control in Linux is an issue, and for this reason augmented security MAC (Mandatory Access Control) controls exist like SELinux and AppArmor.

But I don't see how the nature of everything being a file is a vulnerability in itself.

I'd be happy to learn how though.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by dist1ll on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:21PM (#33793469)
It was a lame attempt at humor, a roundabout way of referring to the simplifying assumptions that *nix systems generally make of the underlying machine.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by fanf2 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @05:29PM (#33794280)
If you want to follow the principles of capability security, then a key part of the strategy is to eliminate “ambient authority”, that is, any kind of globally accessible way of obtaining a capability.

In traditional unix-like systems, file descriptors are very close to capabilities. But the global filesystem namespace is a source of ambient authority.

There are a couple of ways to fix this issue: fine-grained per-process namespaces like Plan 9, so that the filesystem’s authority can be attenuated as necessary, so it becomes more like a capability. Or eliminate absolute pathnames from the API, so you have to use functions like openat() to get an fd relative to an existing fd.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by simonh on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @01:35AM (#33797673)
> There are a lot of operating systems that have a much narrower focus than full-blown multi-tenant GPOS.

I hear some of them are used to manage embedded components in GPOS systems. Oh, wait…!

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by dist1ll on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @08:27AM (#33800359)
Narrow focus =/= only control one hardware component
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by liuliu on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:41PM (#33791424)
I don't know. This sounds very computer-sciency-ish. We build smaller tools to help build big things. Now the big things are so good and versatile we can replace our smaller tools with the big things too. With the more powerful tools, we can build even bigger things. It is just compiler bootstrapping happening in hardware world.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by TimTheTinker on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:03PM (#33791698)
The problem is that there's so much unexplored territory in operating system design. "Everything is a file" and the other *nix assumptions are too often just assumed to be normal. So much more is possible.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by dlinz on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:01PM (#33792465)
Curious student here, would you mind elaborating a bit on this unexplored territory?
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by mrguyorama on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:29PM (#33792831)
This is a bit like asking "Can you elaborate on particle physics" in 1900. The point is that we don't know because there's been so little experimentation in the space. Not a lot of funding for "build an OS that uses completely different idioms and concepts to what we know, possibly without even a goal other than trying something out".
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by random314 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:28PM (#33792819)
Smalltalk vms, forth, Oberon, lisp machines, amoeba etc
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by TimTheTinker on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @05:22PM (#33794212)
Here's a HN comment from earlier this week that elaborates on some earlier operating systems that explored some really novel ideas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33768592

To summarize:

> ITS (of PDP-10 hacker fame) - processes could debug and introspect their child processes. The debugger was always available, basically. The operating system provided support for breakpoints, single-stepping, examining process memory, etc.

> KeyKOS (developed by Tymshare for their commercial computing services in the 1970s) - A capability operating system. If everything in UNIX was a file, then everything in KeyKOS was a memory page, and capabilities (keys) to access those pages.

In every operating system, the basic unit of abstraction will be a process -- which necessitates a scheduler, some form of memory protection, some way for the process to interact with the kernel, and the notions of "kernel space" and "user space". There is a lot of room for innovation there (see ITS), but I suspect most of the room for innovation is in how an OS abstracts/refers to various parts of the system.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by lazide on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:41PM (#33792988)
Possible, but apparently rarely worth the extra effort or complexity to think about.

The Unix ‘everything is a file’ has done well because it works pretty well.

It also isn’t generally a security issue, because it allows application of the nature things we use for files (ACLs, permissions, etc), without having to come up with some new bespoke idea.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by saagarjha on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @05:26AM (#33798984)
You do realize that RTKit is not a Unix-like OS, right?
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ramraj07 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:52PM (#33791566)
Every cell in your body is running a full blown OS fully capable of doing things that each individual cell has no need for. It sounds like this is a perfectly natural way to go about things.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Retric on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:12PM (#33791791)
Mature mammalian red blood cells ditch their DNA, which is one reason they don’t live very long.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ralfd on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:32PM (#33792082)
Did dinosaur / do reptilian blood cells live longer?
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by robbiep on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:14PM (#33792646)
Those from birds which are nucleated last about 30-40 days compared to 120 in us so no
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Retric on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:29PM (#33792832)
No idea about dinosaurs but some reptilian red blood cells live much longer as in 500+ days for turtles vs 120 for humans. However, it varies widely with mice and chickens having much faster turnover. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000649712...

Five species of salamanders have similar enucleated red blood cells, but I can’t find out how long they last in comparison. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18328681/

One theory is it’s an adaption to having unusually large genomes which would otherwise be an issue, but biology is odd so who knows.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by lazide on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:39PM (#33792958)
For one, it makes them much harder to be used as viral vectors.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by glitchc on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:16PM (#33793424)
I think that's the reason why mammals evolved in this way. Red blood cells go everywhere, and I mean everywhere, in your body. Most other cells can't get close enough.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by speed_spread on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:39PM (#33792963)
Not with that attitude
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by helf on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @01:23AM (#33797609)
I didn’t know this. That is fascinating!
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by koheripbal on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:16PM (#33793429)
Organic units should not be admired for their design.

DNA is the worst spaghetti code imaginable.

The design is such a hack, that it's easier to let the unit die and just create new ones every few years.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by btown on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:33PM (#33793646)
"The creatures outside looked from DNA to k8s YAML, and from k8s YAML to DNA, and from DNA to k8s YAML again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by borissk on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:58PM (#33793957)
"Let the unit die and just create new ones every few years" is a brilliant solution to many issues in complex systems. Practically all software created by humans behaves the same way - want a new version of your browser or a new major version of your OS kernel or whatever else - you have to restart them.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by rswail on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @08:21AM (#33800283)
it's almost like Erlang supervisors all the way down :)
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by andrekandre on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:39PM (#33794951)
its a pretty amazing hack though

the human body can scale from 1 cell to several trillion without going down for maintenance even once all while differentiating to different functions

it can take a high level of damage and heal without needing a shutdown as well, most software crashes completely at the first exception

cells give you that highly scalable and fault tolerant system that we all want

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ska on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:56PM (#33795081)
> without going down for maintenance even once

doesn't it go down for maintenance approximately once a day?

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by alluro2 on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @02:27AM (#33797936)
It's more of a "sleep mode". There are still a lot of wakeups, and cron jobs running clean up of temporary files, cache management and backup routines. Background services still run.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by charlieflowers on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:56PM (#33795082)
> it's easier to let the unit die and just create new ones every few years

Cattle, not pets

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ramraj07 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @07:35PM (#33795368)
Poor comparison - DNA is compiled assembly language code. It is meant to be spaghetti to save space and reuse proteins for multiple functions. In that regard it’s the most efficient compiler in the universe.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by techie128 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @08:24PM (#33795738)
Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and turning it back on again?
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ssivark on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @12:26AM (#33797313)
And it’s still more adaptable/robust/intelligent than almost any system we’ve built so far.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by simonh on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @01:59AM (#33797779)
Death isn’t a solution to maintenance issues, there are some organisms including animals that live many hundreds of years and possibly indefinitely. The reason seems to be to increase the rate of iterations, to keep up the pace of adaptation and evolution.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by stock_toaster on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:59PM (#33791645)
It's interesting that microkernels didn't "win" at the OS layer, but they kind of seem to have "won" one layer down.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by rswail on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @08:23AM (#33800309)
I think IBM's IO channels would like a word... it's been like this for most of computing.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by babypuncher on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:51PM (#33792334)
This isn't even that new of a thing. The floppy disk drive sold for the Commodore 64 included it's own 6502 CPU, ROM, and RAM. This ran its own disk operating system[1]. Clever programmers would upload their own code to the disk drive to get faster read/writes, pack data more densely on the disk, and even copy protection schemes that could validate the authenticity of a floppy.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_DOS

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ansible on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:05PM (#33792528)
And all that engineering resulted in a floppy drive that was slower and more expensive than comparable units for other home computers. I'm not sure if there is a lesson there...
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Waterluvian on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:18PM (#33792684)
Probably not a fair comparison in some ways but this reminds me of that story of Woz making a disk drive controller with far fewer chips by being clever and thoughtful about it all. I’m probably misremembering this.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by goosedragons on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:41PM (#33792983)
That's what pretty much what happened. The Integrated Woz Machine.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ronbarr on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:43PM (#33793019)
You’re talking about the Integrated Woz Machine. It was a custom disk controller that Wozniak created that was used in the Apple ][, /// and I believe on the original Macs. It was cheap, fast and worked.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by wrs on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:51PM (#33793107)
And a later Mac, the IIfx, introduced I/O coprocessors to run the IWM, among other things. All part of the glorious wheel of reincarnation. [0]

[0] https://www.computer-dictionary-online.org/definitions-c/cyc...

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by duskwuff on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:58PM (#33795093)
Crazier yet: the IOPs on the IIfx were 6502-based microcontrollers.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by nsxwolf on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:55PM (#33793162)
The Integrated Woz Machine was the custom single-chip version of the Apple II floppy controller.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ddingus on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:54PM (#33793142)
Well, it was slower due to a hardware problem. Basically, the hardware serial device had a bug which required a bit bang comms channel to the disk drive. Doing that amidst the sometimes aggressive video DMA is what caused all the slowdowns.

Back in the day I owned machines that did it both ways, but not a C64. My Atari computer also had a smart disk drive. Worked over something Atari called SIO, which is an early ancestor of modern USB. Back then, the Atari machine was device independent and that turned out to be great engineering!

Today we have Fuji Net devices that basically put Atari and other computers on the Internet, even to the point of being able to write BASIC programs that do meaningful things online.

The C64 approach was not much different, working via RS-232. But for a bug, it would have performed nicely.

Now, my other machine was an Apple ][, and that disk was all software. And it was fast! And being all software meant people did all sorts of crazy stuff on those disk drives ranging from more capacity to crazy copy protection.

But... That machine could do nothing else during disk access.

The Atari and C64 machines could do stuff and access their disks.

Today, that Fuji Net device works via the SIO on the Atari, with the Internet being the N: device! On the Apple, it works via the SmartPort, which worked with disk drives that contained? Wait for it!!

A CPU :)

Seriously, your point is valid. But, it's not really valid in the sense you intended.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by rasz on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @02:11AM (#33797845)
No, VIC-20/1540 had hardware problem. C64 shipped with fixed chips. C64 cant even work with 1540. Commodore crippled it because of incompetence.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ddingus on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @09:50AM (#33801497)
Too late for me to edit, but yes I did confuse the source of the bug. Please clarify the C64 drive scenario source of slowness. Was it VIC-20 backward compatibility, or?

In any case, I maintain the engineering wasn't at fault, having a CPU etc. Fastloaders showed it to be just poor software, and that's a point I did not make clear enough.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by rasz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @12:34AM (#33812750)
Commodore wanted new C64 drives to be backward compatible with VIC-20 and vice versa. They failed the second goal, and C64 sold ~10x the number of units VIC-20 did making whole exercise pointless.

All to sell more outdated garbage chips made by MOS instead of using proper FDC controller on CPU bus with cheap standard floppy.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by ddingus on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:40AM (#33817705)
Got it. Ty :)
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by cromwellian on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:56PM (#33793166)
The 1541 was slow because the c64’s serial bus was slow. Data was clocked over the bus 1 bit at a time. Various fastloaders sped up the data rate by reusing the clock line itself as a data line (2 bits at a time), later HW adapters adder parallel port or even usb to overcome the serial bus bottleneck.

Basically commodore was gonna use an ieee-488 bus for the drive and then decided it was too expensive late in the design and switched to this hacks serial bus that bottlenecked everything.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Eleison23 on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:04PM (#33793277)
The 1541 was set to be a highly capable and performant machine, but an interface/design bug held it back and delivered dismal performance whenever connected to the C64. They tried to fix it but it couldn't be rescued, so speed freaks needed to wait for the 1570 series.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by cromwellian on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:47PM (#33793808)
It was partially rescued by fastloaders and later JiffyDOS. Fastloaders tended to max out at 10-13x if the disk format was unchanged but if you could reformat or recode the files you could go anywhere from 25x speed to over 40x (transwarp) on stock hardware. DolphinDOS gave a 25x speed up by using the parallel port with 1541.

Epyx games used the Vorpal format which gave 15x load speedup.

The point is, the speed issues weren’t really the 1541’s fault although GCR coding could have benefited from a HW decoder.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by edgyquant on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:31PM (#33793615)
There’s more to life and computation than cycles and read/write speed. A generation of engineers began their journey doing these “useless things”
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by NateLawson on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:45PM (#33793775)
The slowness was due to a hardware bug in the 6522 VIA chip. The shift register (FIFO) would lock up randomly. Since this couldn't be fixed before the floppy drive needed to be shipped, they had the 6502 CPU bit-bang the IEC protocol, which was slower. The hardware design for the 154x floppy drive was fine, and some clever software tricks allow stock hardware to stream data back to the C64 and decode the GCR at the full media rate.

https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/gcr-decoding/index....

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by saltcured on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:38PM (#33793692)
In the era of CP/M machines, the terminal likely had a similar CPU and RAM to the computer running the OS too. So you had one CPU managing the text framebuffer and CRT driver, connected to one managing another text framebuffer and application, connected to another one managing the floppy disk servos.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by helf on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:34PM (#33794909)
I guess I should have clarified more: I dislike everything running entirely separate OSes that you have no control over at all and are complete black boxes.

The fact they are running entire OSes themselves isn’t that big of a deal. I just hate having no control.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by helf on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:17PM (#33794765)
Oh I know it’s been a thing forever. Hell, my NeXT Cube with its NeXTDimension display board was such. The NeXTDimension board ran its own entire stripped down OS. It used an Intel i860 and a Mach kernel…. It also was massively underutilized. If NeXT had did a bit more leg work and made the actual Display PS server run entirely on the board it would have been insane. But the 68K still did everything.

… I miss my NeXTs..

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by musictubes on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @12:09AM (#33797216)
Oh God, the 1541 ran soooo hot, hotter than the C64 itself. I remember using a fan on the drive during marathon Ultima sessions. The 1571 was so much cooler and faster.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by rasz on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @02:08AM (#33797830)
Yes, but ... Commodore did this because they had incompetent management. They shipped products (VIC-20, 1540) with hardware defect in one of the chips (6522), chip they manufactured themselves. The kicker is

- C64 shipped with 6526, a fixed version of 6522

- C64 is incompatible with 1540 anyway

They crippled C64 for no reason other than to sell more Commodore manufactured chips inside a pointless box. C128 was similar trick of stuffing C64 with garbage leftover from failed projects and selling computer with 2 CPUs and 2 graphic chips at twice the price. Before slow serial devices they were perfectly capable of making fast and cheaper to manufacture floppies for PET/CBM systems.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by comprambler on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:32PM (#33792879)
Technically it is not a real time OS. There are very few OSs that have this moniker (vxworks, qnx, etc)
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by saagarjha on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @05:24AM (#33798972)
"Real-time" isn't a trademark, you can assign it to other things if they meet the typical guarantees of "real-time".
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by hinkley on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:53PM (#33793129)
It's only a problem if they're closed source. We should be working on that.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @03:58PM (#33793203)
The real-time nature is not what makes it closed though. It's simply that it's been designed to be closed.

For example, Intel's ME could be a really useful feature if we could do what we want with it. Instead they lock it down so it's just built-in spyware.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Gigachad on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:03PM (#33793268)
Isn’t the primary purpose of the ME to run DRM and back door the system? How would it be useful at all open source? People would just turn it off entirely.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:08PM (#33793341)
I could imagine a super low power coprocessor that's always on would be a real useful tool. It could check my email and other low power tasks.

And remote management isn't bad if it's entirely under my control. It's the closed nature that makes me distrust it.

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Gigachad on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:48PM (#33793829)
This has already been solved. Modern devices come with low power general purpose cores and OSs can wake up briefly to check for new messages. I just can’t see why you would ever want to remote manage your own laptop where some software installed on the OS isn’t sufficient.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by wmf on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @05:27PM (#33794264)
I just can’t see why you would ever want to remote manage your own laptop where some software installed on the OS isn’t sufficient.

It's to remotely recover when Windows corrupts itself. (Which is far less common than it used to be.)

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by borissk on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @05:02PM (#33794001)
Intel recent CPUs come with efficiency cores and support S0 standby, aka "Modern Standby", which can periodically wake up and do stuff like check for new emails.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by Avamander on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @05:48PM (#33794482)
There have been earlier attempts at achieving this functionality by Intel, can't recall what they called it right now, but it has existed for a while.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:40PM (#33794961)
They do but it's not nearly as low-power nor as constantly available as Intel ME is.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by the__alchemist on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:02PM (#33793255)
Same. It's not about the principle, but that generally these OSes increase latency etc. There's so much you can do with interrupts, DMA, and targetted code when performance is a priority.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by saagarjha on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @05:25AM (#33798983)
What makes you think performance was not a priority here?
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by jbverschoor on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @04:31PM (#33793617)
I sometimes wonder about how fast tings could go if we ditch the firmware, and also just bake a kernel / os right into the silicon. Not like all the subsystems which run their own os/kernels, but really just cut every layer, and have nothing in between.
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by p_l on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @06:18PM (#33794771)
You'd find yourself needing to add more CPUs to account for all the low level handling that is done by various coprocessors for you, eating into your compute budget, especially with high interrupt ratio as you wouldn't have it abstracted and batched in the now missing coprocessors
Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by astrange on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @10:27PM (#33796667)
It'd be slower. These coprocessor OSes are there to improve performance in the first place.

(Especially because wall clock time is not the only kind of performance that matters.)

Re:Tales of the M1 GPU by saagarjha on Wednesday November 30, 2022 @05:24AM (#33798978)
Then you can't improve them.