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Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:42PM (#33052622)
> I was stunned by the arrogance, rudeness, and completely ignorance of RMS

Why were you stunned? The guy signs his emails "Dr. Richard Stallman" whilst only having an honorary doctorate. Clearly there are issues. It's as insane as signing emails "Dr. Bill Gates", "Dr. Clint Eastwood" and "Dr. Billy Joel" (all having honorary degrees).

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by dreamcompiler on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:15AM (#33053078)
I have problems with some of RMS's opinions and behavior, but I have no problem with him calling himself "Dr."

One of my professors used to talk about the difference between a Masters degree and a PhD:

"To get a Masters degree you have to learn something. To get a PhD the world has to learn something."

The world has learned a great deal from RMS. Regardless of what one thinks of him as a person, he's probably been more influential on how the world thinks about software than the vast majority of PhDs.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kelnos on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:30AM (#33053452)
RMS actually did ask a few of the universities who granted him doctorates, if it was acceptable for him to use the title "Doctor". Some said no, some said yes, and some said he should use "Dr.(h.c.)"[0] (as in "doctor, honoris causa", where we get the term "honorary doctorate", even though, as RMS points out, it'd be perhaps more accurate to call it "doctorate for honor"[1]).

Of course, he took that as license to just do whatever he wanted to do. Personally I wouldn't even consider adopting any kind of title in the first place, but if I was of that bent, I would at least have the decency to append the "(h.c.)".

I do believe that RMS's contributions to the world have been significant, but, to me, at least, a doctorate is something you get after completing a doctoral program. If you don't do that, you should call yourself a "doctor, honoris causa" -- because that's what you are! -- not a "doctor".

But what do I know, I only completed a bachelor's degree, and even then only barely.

[0] https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html

[1] I learned something new today!

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by fsflover on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:25AM (#33054384)
> some said yes

So, regardless of your personal opinion, he is allowed to call himself Dr.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by epse on Sunday October 02, 2022 @07:51AM (#33055105)
Titles like Dr. are protected by law in many countries, so the answer probably still is "it depends", considering regional differences
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Sunday October 02, 2022 @07:57PM (#33061710)
Who gives a shit if he calls himself Doctor or not.

This is character assassination, leave it alone.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by dizhn on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:33PM (#33058813)
He could probably apply today and get a doctorate from a pretty good school in two years. That said i do find it weird that he'd use the title. He's a weird guy but also someone I look up to. :)
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pvaldes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:43PM (#33060049)
And who do we think that could mentor him? Who could teach him what is open source for example?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:34AM (#33053161)
The world has also learned a great deal from Tom Silva on This Old House, does that set the precedent to be called "Dr. of Carpentry"?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by joecool1029 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:37AM (#33053176)
If institutions that award normal doctorates in carpentry decided he contributed enough to the field to be conferred a doctorate.... absolutely?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by DonHopkins on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:16AM (#33053364)
Dr. Demento introduced Weird Al Yankovic to the world.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by Eleison23 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:08AM (#33055980)
The Beastie Boys issued millions of "License to Ill" but they never specified an expiration date.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by alex_sf on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:09AM (#33053330)
Unironically, I'd be fine with that.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by rvieira on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:12AM (#33054586)
An honorary degree is not meaningless. It is an official degree typically bestowed by a bona fide institution (that also has non-honorary degrees). It is also given to individuals that had a deep impact in some area, arguably a much deeper impact than any freshly graduated PhD student has.

So it doesn't bother me if any of them signs Dr. Bill Gates, Dr. Billy Joel or Dr. Clint Eastwood as they, in all likelihood, are important in their fields, much more than I was when I submitted my thesis.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by LukeShu on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:55PM (#33052675)
Without saying I agree with him on this, here's his defense of it: https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by mgraczyk on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:00AM (#33052703)
It just shows how out of touch he is. Almost everyone I've worked with in my career has had a PhD. Not one of them have ever included "Dr" in their titles on emails or anywhere else. I've even worked with a few MD/PhDs who transitioned to software engineering, and they did not include "Dr" in their capacities as software engineers.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kelnos on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:59AM (#33053284)
Hell, most of the people I know who have PhDs are at least mildly embarrassed if you call them "doctor". Or at the very least they roll their eyes and think the title is silly. This is in the US; I don't know about how people feel in other countries.

Granted, these are mostly (or even all?) people who received their doctorates in the past 10 or 15 years, and as such are a good 30 years younger than Stallman, so perhaps there is a generational thing at play here too, where the respect/desirability of titles like that has been dropping over time.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by jltsiren on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:29AM (#33054403)
Using "doctor" as a title or a form of address is common in the academia, including in the US. It's also very formal, especially in spoken language. Hearing it in situations where such formality is not expected can be awkward and embarrassing.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by jcelerier on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:14AM (#33055627)
I only ever see it with people in the humanities. In science... weird - more than weird, in general seeing someone who uses the Dr. title is a good indication of "you're going to read the worst shit ever hidden under an insufferable amount of vague verbiage".

To give another data point: in France I remember the university having to ask the local profs. to put their titles (Dr, Prof, etc) in their mail signature as otherwise students thought that french teachers were much less competent than e.g. teachers from germany who would have three layers of Dr. Eng. prepended

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by jltsiren on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:48PM (#33059497)
Like I said, it's very formal.

One common situation is introducing an invited speaker at a conference. After the first mention, you refer to the speaker using a mix of pronouns and names. Full name or last name would sound weird. Using first name works if the speaker is your friend and many people in the audience also know them as a person. Otherwise "Dr. Lastname" is a reasonable choice.

Academic websites are full of short biographies of speakers, lecturers, PIs, and so on. They are often written in third person. Again, "Dr. Lastname" is often the form of reference that sounds least weird.

Academic spam is often addressed to "Dr. Lastname", especially if the sender is asking the recipient to do something. Using "doctor" as a title is a safe default choice. It sounds respectful, it's very likely to be correct, and it saves the sender from guessing the gender (and possibly marital status) of the recipient.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by worik on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:36PM (#33058844)
What nonsense!

A PhD has earned their title "Dr".

Many people use it, and they should. They paid for it with their mental health.

I apply the title to everyone I know with a PhD.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by jcelerier on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:59PM (#33061269)
I guess it's cultural. I and a fair amount of my friends with a PhD find it just super weird.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by genewitch on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:08AM (#33053656)
If they paid the $100,000 why would they be embarassed? There's probably a psychological explanation for their reasoning. M.D. is a "doctor", but a person with their PhD is a "Doctor of ..." If anything, I'm more inclined to believe someone with a Doctorate in anything other than medicine.

Perhaps the PhD holders don't want to be associated with the hubris that most medical doctors exude. For reference, google "endometriosis suffer" or spend some time researching medical malpractice.

It also is possible that a lot of kids coming out of the 80s got a bum deal on their education - or at least feel they did. Like, "it was too easy to get this degree" - from the standpoint of applying themselves, not the overall workload of getting a PhD. Medical Doctors who are board certified, that did all their rotations, and whatever else required, there's only one other doctorate that requires more workload, and that's psychiatry.

What should maybe be questioned is why someone needs a doctorate for "the world to learn from them."

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by cycomanic on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:51AM (#33053236)
Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common.

Let's not even talk about medical doctors everywhere, or formal engineering qualifications, both are very often used in letters.

The argument is that they make a direct difference to the perception of the individuals competence (and I know that for medical doctors there is a direct effect on earnings). While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers he might be thinking it does make a difference because of his interaction with other stakeholders. Not really defending it, just offering a different perspective.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by klqrtz on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:59AM (#33053612)
The German "Dr. med" is a scam. They do 1 year of an irrelevant experiment that is sped up by p-value fishing and get the "Dr. med" thrown after them. They and their professors generally have no clue about the statistics used to validate the fake and irrelevant experiment.

They also omit the "med", which is much like omitting "h.c.". And they are very keen on using the title in general.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kelnos on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:01AM (#33053294)
> While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers

I think it does make a difference: many software developers might take him less seriously because of it. And that has nothing to do with the fact that his doctorates are honorary; same goes for someone who has completed a PhD program.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kdomanski on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:30PM (#33059338)
> Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common.

Expat living in Germany here. You’re absolutely correct according to my experience. In fact, I’ve seen people with PhD put “Dr.” on the mailbox in front of their home.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by irrational on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:05AM (#33052734)
I have a brother in law who has an PhD in economics who signs everything Dr and refers to himself as doctor. We don’t get along.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:18AM (#33052807)
He missed his calling as maestro.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by worik on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:37PM (#33058858)
> who signs everything Dr

As he should. He earned it

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by subjectsigma on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:09AM (#33052755)
I work with several PhDs and it's probably a 60%-40% of people who don't use "Dr." as a title and people who do. So (anecdotally) it still happens.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by matheusmoreira on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:34AM (#33052887)
I think these titles are just like being a hacker. No one calls themselves a hacker, it's other people who do it after respect is earned.

Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate. I don't think he's wrong to call himself a doctor. A little formal, perhaps?

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:54AM (#33052981)
> Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate.

This is false and insulting to people who earned real degrees.

He has an honorary doctorate. Which is about as worthless as if someone had the local trophy shoppe mint you a plaque that said "World's Greatest Hacker".

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by matheusmoreira on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:10AM (#33053050)
An honorary doctorate is still a doctorate, though. It doesn't have the usual academic requirements but it's not like universities just hand them out to anyone. It's supposed to denote a significant contribution to a field. Stallman did contribute significantly so I personally see no problem with it.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kelnos on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:19AM (#33053381)
> but it's not like universities just hand them out to anyone.

No, but at least in the US, they're often given out for things other than achievement in a particular field, like as unofficial quid-pro-quo for large donations to the university.

Perhaps that doesn't damn the practice entirely, as many are awarded for extraordinary contributions, but it does add an unfortunate extra step, having to ask the question, "did this person get this honor because they did amazing things, or because they paid amazing sums?"

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by genewitch on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:10AM (#33053676)
do you have any examples of someone who got an honorary doctorate by paying for it?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pishpash on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:45AM (#33053215)
Moreover, it is completely aligned with how Stallman operates. Most people do not have doctorates, so universities and recipients can arbitrage the "doctorate" title by a socially acceptable lie wherein the recipient understands to not use it like one. Stallman doesn't do socially acceptable lies. You either give him a doctorate and let him use it like one or you don't give him one. Socially acceptable lies where people "agree to disagree" are how principles get bent and if he were also this way he would have bent long ago.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by LtWorf on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:04AM (#33053634)
Valentino Rossi (motorcycle pilot) has been calling himself "The Doctor" since receiving a honoris causa master degree in communication.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by frabert on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:19AM (#33054021)
It's important to note that in Italy, the title of doctor works differently than in the German and anglophone world, and you are granted the title of "dottore" (doctor) with a bachelor's degree. A master's makes you a "dottore magistrale" and a PhD makes you a "dottore di ricerca" (research doctor)
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:29AM (#33053136)
Dr. Linus Torvalds has entered the chat.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by josefx on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:03AM (#33053927)
> An honorary doctorate is still a doctorate, though.

A honorary doctorate is to a doctorate as a honorary citizenship is to a citizenship. It does not imply any rights or qualifications and trying to pass it of as the real deal may be (and in some places is quite explicitly) considered fraud.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pvaldes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:53PM (#33060157)
And in other places is not fraud. Your mileage may vary.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by codehalo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:12AM (#33053058)
But it is awarded by the very institutions that award "real degrees", not local trophy shoppes.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pishpash on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:06AM (#33053028)
Maybe universities should stop giving them out then. They can literary give any other honor but they choose to tie it to a doctorate and insult people who earn real degrees. How is Stallman the problem?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pvaldes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:31PM (#33060487)
Sometimes, people create entire new fields of knowledge. The idea that somebody could teach Shakespeare about Shakespeare's work is ludicrous. The idea that somebody could teach what is open source to Stallman for a limited period of time does not have any sense. He coined the term.

Honorary doctorates are created for this cases, when the recipient is --the-- expert in the field. Is a shortcut to encourage this experts to became teachers and pass their knowledge. Win-win. Do we really think that somebody spending four years writing a these about emacs knows more than Stallman about a program that he developped since 70's?

Is abused to groom donors? Yes, Sometimes is abused, but is a perfectly legit way to became a doctor.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by tbrownaw on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:36AM (#33053171)
I know someone who does this. She also refers to other people with PhDs as "Dr" even if they don't typically refer to themselves that way.

I suspect it's some sort of cultural thing, and that with how much computer people tend to reject typical forms of formality we're just mostly on the far opposite side of whatever cultural thing it is.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by inglor_cz on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:20AM (#33053727)
This is very culturally dependent, you would be surprised at the # of openly proclaimed Drs in Central Europe - the academic culture inherited from the ancient German-speaking empires loves all sorts of titles.

But this is not relevant here, as Dr. Stahlmann doesn't work in Tübingen.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by CamperBob2 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:07AM (#33052742)
One exception that comes to mind would be Ferdinand Porsche. To this day the company is called "Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG" (although I wonder if that changed with their recent IPO.)
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by kelnos on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:22AM (#33053403)
At least they include "h. c.", honoris causa, "for honor", which is where we get the (perhaps not all that well translated) term "honorary" doctorate.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by DonHopkins on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:03AM (#33053627)
At least he doesn't insist you call him Maestro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9c6Af802w

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by Nursie on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:43AM (#33053205)
I’ve worked with a handful of people with PhDs, that I know of, and about half of them signed off that way. One or two really wanted you to know about it.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by spullara on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:43AM (#33052929)
It is now being included by folks that historically didn't get many doctorates and it is considered ok.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pvaldes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:15PM (#33060882)
Is their choice not to use it, but is not a norm engraved in marble. For each one that declines to use the title, you would find ten in the Academia that will happily use it. It depends on if is a formal context or not.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by ekianjo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:22AM (#33052829)
In Germany people always do though. Cultural context or people showing off, I am not sure.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by josefx on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:39AM (#33053510)
Germany is also rather strict about it and using an academic title like doctor when you do not have the right to it can be considered fraud. A honorary doctorate is not considered equal to the academic title and has to be explicitly distinguished.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by ElemenoPicuares on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:32AM (#33052873)
Sure, but not particularly relevant in this context.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by layer8 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:06AM (#33052738)
It used to be more common, and is still quite common in Europe, I believe.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by progre on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:06AM (#33053315)
It's common in Germany. It's concidered pompous asshattery everywhere else.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by LtWorf on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:05AM (#33053639)
In Italy you can call yourself doctor with a bachelor degree. And people do sign "doctor" in official communication.

It's also illegal to do it without actually having the title.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by romwell on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:09AM (#33052752)
As a math PhD (the usual, thesis-and-all kind), I really see no issue with Dr. Stallman identifying as such.

A doctorate is a doctorate. And if it makes him happier, why not? There's no harm or confusion (his qualifications are clear enough in any context where they matter). Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil.

There so many other things to have an issue with about Stallman, I don't know why this one stands out in particular.

...that said, the only time I've used the "Dr." next to my name was on obnoxious web forms which force me to choose between Mr/Ms/etc, and Dr. is the only non-gendered option.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:17AM (#33052804)
> Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil.

Except Dr. Phil does have an actual PhD. Which he attended university and defended via dissertation. Unlike, say, RMS.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by cycomanic on Sunday October 02, 2022 @01:57AM (#33053271)
An honorary doctor is in general significantly harder to get than a regular PhD. If we want to talk about people undeservedly getting the Dr. title, let's talk about medical doctors. The thesis to get the title is often a joke even compared to a masters thesis.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by vasco on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:04AM (#33053632)
You can buy honorary doctor degrees so it's way easier, probably just more rare.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by romwell on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:34AM (#33054706)
>Except Dr. Phil does have an actual PhD. Which he attended university and defended via dissertation. Unlike, say, RMS.

Well that's the point.

When RMS says he's a "Doctor", the expectation is "made a significant contribution to computer science" - which, arguably, he did.

When Dr. Phil says he's a "doctor", the expectation is "qualified and licensed to practice medicine in his field". Which he is very much not (in particular, he hasn't renewed his license).

Context matters.

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by ekianjo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:24AM (#33052841)
A PHD is not that hard to get when you already reach masters degree. Its mostly a matter of choice, not mad skills or something.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pishpash on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:40AM (#33052912)
In what world is this true, except at fly-by-night places that advertise on TV?
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by forgotpwd16 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:09AM (#33054288)
As is usual the case with the "I could easily do it had I have the chance", the world of not having enrolled in a PhD programme.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by LtWorf on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:09AM (#33053669)
in sweden that'd mean 5 more years of university, after 5 years of university.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by mgraczyk on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:51AM (#33053874)
In the US it's 2-5+ extra but depends a lot on the field.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by assttoasstmgr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:40AM (#33053513)
Imagine that. The pedantic buffoon at the center of the ridiculous GNU/Linux naming controversy created an entire page dedicated to his title. Amazing.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by d_tr on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:51AM (#33055850)
There are a few dozen comments about this insignificant detail in this very thread.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by DonHopkins on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:13AM (#33053692)
Now is the time to call me Doctor!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_A8Xe9M0NY

    Call me doctor (Call me doctor)
    No need to look
    He's not in the book
    The doctor's not an M.D.
    What he does this time he does for free
https://genius.com/Devo-theme-from-doctor-detroit-lyrics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VaMIFEQDg

>Mom, I am going to rip off your head and shit down your neck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOBZWQEJE4

>For whatever intimidation and injustice vie with decency and honor, let the Doctors arise, and arise they must, for within every one of us, there is a Doctor, a dormant Doctor, a supreme arbitrator, who can be summoned to intervene, when crises threaten the stabilities and well-beings of our heartlands. Now let's party!

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by fellellor on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:58AM (#33054535)
It is a rude digression to discuss RMS’s personal character flaws and mental instability. The FSF more importantly is a force for good and always has been. And we need them to try to be more relevant and effective in the coming age of completely locked, learning capable and vastly more influential proprietary software.
Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by pvaldes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:37PM (#33059982)
If somebody is a doctor honoris causa, has been seen as deserving to be doctor by the only group of people that can legally grant this titles.

Anybody with a doctorate can decide to use the title, use it only in an ironic way, or just don't use it, as you wish. "Dr. Clint Eastwood" would not be a symptom of anything strange. Eastwood is clearly an expert in films, successful at both sides of the camera, so... why not recognize it?

Re:An elegy for GNU and RMS by Zababa on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:11AM (#33052766)
I don't really see the issue here. Is this a cultural thing ?