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Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by truculent on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:10AM (#32397304)
When thinking and planning for the future, it is important not to think of this summer as one of the hottest within recorded history, but as one of the coolest for the next 100 years.

Consequently, an appropriate response to this summer should far exceed what is required to cope with the droughts and heatwaves that we have just seen.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by cinntaile on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:30AM (#32397577)
This is mostly about lack of rainfall and not temperature.

Climate change causes more extreme weather, that doesn't imply this summer will be one of the coolest for the next 100 years?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:33AM (#32398566)
Right. But still the expectations mostly are, that it might be, as warming continues. The only exception would be a failing of the gulf stream, which for central Europe would be a huge reset in temperatures with a more Canadian climate.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:26PM (#32400939)
my understanding is more extreme weather with a definite tendency towards increasing heat.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ragebol on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:47AM (#32397817)
> This is mostly about lack of rainfall and not temperature.

Higher temperature air has less capacity to carry water, 7% less for every degree Celcius IIRC. So there could very well be a link.

EDIT: Nope, I had it completely backwards, which makes much more sense too. Colder = less capacity for water. I need a drink. Can't delete my misinformed comment unfortunately.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:52AM (#32397905)
What? Absolute humidity at saturation increases with temperature (at fixed pressure). At 100 C (and 1 bar), the air becomes entirely water vapor.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ragebol on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:16AM (#32398290)
Oops, I had it the wrong way around.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by trashtester on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#32398631)
Generally, though, hotter weather means more water evaporates, and regardless of whether the air can hold more or less water, over time the same amount that goes up will come down, meaning total precipitation will increase as the earth gets warmer.

That doesn't mean that this increase will be uniform. The rain may very well come in Sahara, Arabia or Central Asia.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Loudergood on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:57AM (#32397982)
That is incredibly backwards. Which is why when the temperature drops the water literally comes out of the sky.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ragebol on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:16AM (#32398283)
Yep, you're are right, my bad.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Tsukiortu on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:29PM (#32418704)
Owning up to mistakes is better than hiding them, IMO. I have much for respect for someone who can say yeah I messed up like you did than someone who deletes it (Even if you can't).
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ragebol on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:15AM (#32422909)
Well, I'd delete to remove the disinformation, not to hide my mistake. Effect is the same of course.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by haunter on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:49AM (#32397844)
>but as one of the coolest for the next 100 years

I'd not predict the future like that. No one knows certainly what will happen if the Gulf stream collapse

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by digdugdirk on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:00AM (#32398038)
Your response took a terrifying turn at the end there.

Are there any examples on the climatic record of the Gulf Stream collapsing to help shed some light on the potential outcomes?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by PheonixPharts on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#32398650)
The thing people really have to understand about climate change is how unprecedented the impact of many of the changes coming are. I mean if you look at a globe you should immediately see that most of Europe is North of the United States. The reason it's comfortable to live there an agriculture is possible is the Gulf Stream.

But forget the Gulf Stream, you should learn more about the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (AMOC)[0], which also could be shut down. There is geological evidence that such a shut down would turn the Atlantic ocean anoxic, literally turning the ocean toxic.

This isn't some wacky, doomer fantasy scenario, this has happened multiple times in Earth's history when CO2 levels and temperatures have risen and been responsible for multiple mass extinction events[1]. It's also worth pointing out that the AMOC is already showing evidence of weakening [2]

A good overview of this paleontologist Peter Ward's Under a Green Sky.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturnin...

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoxic_event

2. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaz4876

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by nicwolff on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:11PM (#32399871)
To show how long this has been known and ignored I offer this somewhat manic sci-fi short story [0] written by my grandfather 101 years ago, in which a megalomaniacal ecologist has shut down the Gulf Stream by choking it off between Miami and the Bahamas.

[0] http://www.angel.net/~nic/jegers-mentoen-annihilator.html

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by scruple on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:45PM (#32401205)
Total aside, but that's a very nice piece of family history. And a neat short story, too! Thanks for sharing it.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by adamhp on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:13AM (#32399112)
Thank you for my daily dose of existential dread. I can now safely logout of the internet.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by rapnie on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:18AM (#32398316)
I remember a geography teacher talking about this decades ago at school. He said to compare Europe's mild climate to Canada's at the same latitude, and that Europe might be a lot colder in winter with the Gulf Stream halted.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by jacquesm on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:30AM (#32399329)
It would be. Coastal zones (say within 100 km of open sea) would still see some tempering effects but not on the same scale and further inland it would instantly be the same climate as you saw in Poland or Russia 40 years ago. And further East it will be worse still. The Gulf Stream is what keeps Northern Europe habitable.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by bamboozled on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:06AM (#32398141)
Rumors are and ice age, which seems ironic.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:12AM (#32398234)
"Wow and those stupid libs were saying global warming! Idiots!"

I can already hear them screeching.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ta988 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#32398633)
Yeah some people lack brains to understand that a global change doesn't imply local changes going the other direction. The example I give them is usually: Your neighborhood can get richer and you can loose your job.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by jacquesm on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:28AM (#32399308)
The easier path is global warming -> more energy in the atmosphere -> more extreme weather.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by haunter on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:47AM (#32399517)
This is so simple and eloquent. And equally terrifying.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by moviuro on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#32398213)
What if? (name of the channel I found)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzCvY0ENrhk

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by truculent on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @03:06PM (#32402493)
I think it's a reasonable prediction on a global scale, but as you correctly point out, that might not be a useful scale for individuals living through it
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by monkeynotes on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:29AM (#32397551)
Meanwhile the west's governments are prioritizing short-term inflation curbing rather than addressing climate change in their campaigns. We are all screwed.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by peyton on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:43AM (#32397752)
Not sure my government can do much about coal plant construction in Africa. Would rather they focus on things in control like inflation, to be honest.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:18AM (#32399170)
Your government was likely funding construction of them till a few months ago, and probably is still funding other fossil fuel projects:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/g7-countries-agree-s...

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by midasuni on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:45AM (#32397795)
If europe had built enough renewable energy over the last 10 years to provide its energy production it would have tackled both problems at once. - International energy prices wouldn’t be a major problem.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by blfr on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:54AM (#32397934)
Yeah, but that wasn't in line with German plans of controlling the EU with Russian gas so had to be rejected on policy grounds.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by morsch on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:53AM (#32398853)
Controlling the EU with Russian gas? Is that the conspiracy theory de jour, then?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by blfr on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:41AM (#32399441)
Hardly a conspiracy when the German chancellor openly signs an agreement with Russia and then joins Nord Stream and Gazprom to implement it and bypass other EU countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relation...

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by nosianu on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:59AM (#32399684)
I still don't see any evidence for your claim "controlling the EU". The Nord Stream II stuff is well-known, but how does Germany getting gas from Russia let them "control the EU"? They are also far from the only EU country with big bets on energy from Russia (for example, Austria, Hungary - the latter not wanting to change a thing even now).

Dependence of European countries on Russian gas, oil (data until 2020):

Gas: https://www.statista.com/chart/26768/dependence-on-russian-g...

Oil: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1298031/dependence-on-ru...

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by blfr on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:02PM (#32400593)
how does Germany getting gas from Russia let them "control the EU"?

It's not getting gas that's indicative. It's getting gas intentionally bypassing the other EU countries and Ukraine with Nordstream 1&2. Thus enabling Russia and Germany to squeeze eastern EU.

Honest question: do you generally follow world events and not know this? I always wonder what the political and historical consciousness is in the west.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by morsch on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:42PM (#32401169)
You're still not saying how this lets Germany "control the EU". If anything it sounds like you want Eastern Europe to control the access to gas in order to have an inordinate amount of influence over Germany. So basically what Russia is doing now.

Being independent of Russian energy resources would also "bypass" Poland and Ukraine. Germany should and could have been there ten years ago, hopefully we will be ten years from now.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by blfr on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:05PM (#32401508)
Russians and Germans built very expensive Nordstream 1&2 to route around nominative German allies. This is basically official Russian doctrine that Germans, including personally their chancellor, joined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falin-Kvitsinsky_Doctrine

The goal was not to be independent but to become a hub of Russian gas to resell.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by andrepd on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:06AM (#32398146)
Sure they can: via large-scale economic mobilisation (New Deal-like), build renewables to generate enough electricity to avoid the need to import dirty energy from elsewhere. With limited grid storage, ~2-3x what we have today, >90% of Europe's energy could come from renewables.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by monkeynotes on Thursday August 11, 2022 @11:06AM (#32426878)
This outlook of apathy is why we are screwed. Let's focus on inflation because the world falling apart is inevitable? Inflation is going to be the least of your worries when you are too hot, too cold, hungry, etc. The impact of climate change is waaay bigger than inflation.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by nickserv on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:24AM (#32398429)
Impose severe sanctions on any state or business providing funding for fossil fuel electricity generation.

Subsidize carbon free electricity generation in developing countries.

Help women in developing countries access education and family planning => reduces population growth and so energy requirements.

Simple enough, but there is absolutely no will to do it.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:46AM (#32399504)
Those are all happening, so it's not all doom and gloom.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-u-s-is-pr...

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by political12345 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:20AM (#32399209)
lol simple, says xe/xi

do it then

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Tsukiortu on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:37PM (#32418778)
I don't think that's the best way to put it. Just because a solution can be simple doesn't mean the procedures in the way to enact it inherently are. Not that I agree with either side here, just dislike that way of thinking of “do it then.” In most governments, even if someone wants a change, it doesn't mean it's easy to enact even if that change is simple itself. Due to democracy requiring you to get people into agreement, you can't just waltz in and go yeah I want this changed and have it done.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by colordrops on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:44AM (#32399487)
Are you suggesting that coal plants in Africa ate the main issue driving climate change? Aren't US and China still the biggest emitters, and not doing much about it?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by lkrubner on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:47AM (#32397820)
The current burst of inflation is global and is caused by a global pandemic that unleashed global shocks to global supply chains. There isn't much any one government can do, other than continue to push the Covid-19 vaccine out to as many people as possible.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:52AM (#32397907)
False. The current inflation is the result of over a decade of growth fueled purely by money printing which has been accelerated since the pandemic when they shifted the money printer into afterburner. Like what did you expect would happen when the fed doubles the amount of money in circulation over the span of just two years?

Russia invading Ukraine and China pursuing a zero COVID policy, threw a spanner in this monetary house of cards the west economy was based.

Maybe we in the west should focus more on being more energy independent from hidrocarbures and more manufacturing independent from China instead of just focusing on increasing the price of stonks and housing.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by andrepd on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#32398215)
You're being downvoted but you're absolutely right. QE was a policy of very very dubious merit already in 2008, and by the time the pandemic ended it was still going (and after Mar/2020 it went into turbo mode). The economy has NEVER went back to normal after 2008; in many regards we're still in the aftermath of the 2008 catastrophe.

The inflation was perhaps "triggered" by covid and the Ukraine invasion, but it was not "caused" by it. It was caused by monetary policy designed to keep asset prices inflated (and shaft the working class as a side-effect).

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sofixa on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:56AM (#32397971)
Don't forget a war, sanctions, impacts on trade and many important resources (foodstuffs, energy).
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by JJMcJ on Thursday August 11, 2022 @02:57PM (#32430180)
Similar to 1973/1982 when the price of crude oil went up 5X.

I don't like the idea that monetary policy is the only determiner of prices.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by themitigating on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:55AM (#32397961)
The Democrats just passed a major climate change bill https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/07/politics/senate-democrats-cli...
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by monkeynotes on Thursday August 11, 2022 @11:18AM (#32427044)
To be rolled back when the people elect based on short-term economic change.

The US is so corrupt, so in the pockets of industry I honestly have little confidence in this bill being in good faith toward climate action.

* https://www.xrebellion.nyc/news/statement-on-inflation-reduc... * https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/manchi...

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sofixa on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:55AM (#32397958)
Don't lump "West" like that. Germany has a green party in the ruling coalition, in France that stuff is taken somewhat seriously and the second biggest coalition in parliament (that the government has to rely on to pass laws) has an explicit green component. During the election cycle (president and lower chamber of parliament) this spring green and social issues were the main topics of discussion and main component of most campaigns.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#32398388)
Please spare me, the Green party in Germany (and Austria) did more harm than good by pushing for renewables which underdelivered and hidrocarbures over nuclear which they were vehemently against.

Just because you call yourself green doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

And let's not forget how several former high ranking German and Austrian politicians are on the boards of various Russian oil and gas companies, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence and not in any way related to the countries' energy policies. /s

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:36AM (#32398605)
Sorry, but no. Yes, the greens pushed for exiting nuclear, but it was the Merkel government which hastened it and at the same time cut down the deployment of renewables. Germany could be much further ahead without that. We still are at 50% renewables in the mix, while nuclear was at its peak below 30% like 20 years ago.

The ranking German politician is former chancellor Schröder and indeed, this is very much critisized throughout Germany.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:24PM (#32403762)
Just because Merkel nailed the final nail, doesn't mean that the greens didn't build the coffin and nail 3/4 of the nails.

Stop trying to shift the blame off the greens.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:47PM (#32404073)
Stop blaming the greens for what they are not responsible.

Merkel (or rathr her minister Altmaier) shortened the life time of nuclear and more importantly curbed the buildup of renewables. Of course the exit of nuclear can only work with enough renewables being built up and that they not only failed but held back. Add to that the complete one sided dependence of Russian gas - they even sold the German gas storage to Gazprom. Guess why the German storage happened to be empty just at the beginning of the invasion of the Ukraine.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:03PM (#32404261)
Maybe the greens shouldn't have been pushing for things that wasn't practical at that point in time? The greens are at least partially at fault for this. Why push to get rid of nuclear and not build new nuclear before you are ready for alternatives?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:12PM (#32404400)
The alternatives where ready many years before the proposed end of nuclear. Solar buildup peaked in 2012 at over 10GWh/year and fell to 1 GWh/year due to political influence. Without the actions of the Merkel government, we would have 5 more years of nuclear and be way further ahead on renewables. So please stop blaming the Greens.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:25PM (#32405976)
I have a few questions.

Where are you getting this 1gwh number? I am seeing 5gwh in 2021. I also am not seeing 10gwh any year. Perhaps I am not looking at the correct numbers?

If solar had its peak in 2012 that means it had its peak under Merkel's time as Chancellor? Which policy do you think Merkel was involved with that caused the drop? I assume you will say the change in feed in tariff? If so then why did the peak occur after years of the tariff continually dropping?

If it is the tariff, then why didn't we see a similar continual decline in the US when the tax credit ended at the end of 2016? There was a few year decline, but solar adoption is now higher than ever.

Would 5 years been enough that nuclear could have been shut down without causing any issues? Nuclear appears to be a large supplier of power in Germany. It doesn't seem likely that 5 years could have allowed solar to displace nuclear. Germany would still be having issues.

Do you have proof that roll out of solar would have continued at the same rate without the change in tariff (or whatever you are blaming Merkel for)?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Friday August 12, 2022 @05:37AM (#32436275)
If you look at this graph: https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Redaktion/DE/Bilder/G...

You can see that solar collapsed from 8.2GW/a[1] in 2012 to 1.2GW/a in 2015. Wind collapsed from 4.9GW/a in 2017 to 0.9GW/a in 2019.

I cannot exactly "proove" which decision was exact killer, but of course any decision takes some time to have the full impact, as larger installations usually are planned years ahead, so any change in politics will take years to take full effect. But the collapse of both wind and solar are difficult to miss - and we rather should have a steady growth in both rates or at least maintain the peak rates on a constant level. At minimum one can blame politics not to have acted to keep up with installations. But there were a lot of decisions taken which were clearly impacting the roll out of renewables. And that with a known deadline for the nuclear power plants.

Some decisions taken I can remember:

- the feed in tariff was lowered. Even if that is a constant process, when it crosses the threshhold of no longer being profitable, there will be a steep drop in new installations

- solar started to recover in recent years, probably because due to the cells becoming cheaper so it began to be more profitable again

- as far as I know there was an upper limit for any subsidy, so another reason for a stop of new installations

- for wind power the whole system was changed, leading to a deep decline. Subsidies were auctioned off, but unfortunately not including a time limit for actually installing new capacity. So many projects "won" auctions and were never realized.

The 5 years alone wouldn't probably not suffice to replace the nuclear power plants, but you have to count in as well all the missed capacity after 2012. If we had just continued at 8GW/a and above, solar capacity would almost be double of what it is today. Pretty much the same with wind.

[1] Sorry, might have mistaken the total number on top of the solar bar with the number on the bar. But over 8GW/a is still pretty much it.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:14AM (#32398255)
You mean the "green" party that relentlessly fear-mongered nuclear and got Germany addicted to russian fossil fuels? The one that is going to be forced to start burning coal again?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#32398656)
No, you are mistaking them for the CDU and SPD which got us addicted to russian fuels and at the same time curbed the deployment of renewal sources. The Greens is the party whose minister Harbeck has now to clean up the mess left to him and on short notice, Germany has a reasonable amount of coal power plants which can be reactivated to prevent blackouts. But this is only necessary due to Russia not delivering the agreed amound of gas.

(And ironically on the French nuclear power plants failing due to wear and heat, so that Germany had to produce an additional 20TWh of electricity to keep the grid alive)

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:53PM (#32400460)
Germany isn't a barren desert with copious wind and sun. Demonizing nuclear will be looked back upon as cataclysmic fuck-up fueled by pure ignorance.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:04PM (#32400628)
Germany has enough wind and sun to cover all electricy needs. And the fact that the nuclear-friendly France is not able to replace their aging fleet of power plants shows, that nuclear isn't such a simple or cheap solution. If Germany would push renewables, electricity would be carbon neutral before the first new nuclear power plant could come online.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:14PM (#32401657)
The issue is that neither wind or solar provide baseline generation.

Frances issue aren't with nuclear, but with funding.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:52PM (#32402276)
Storage to address the intermittency of renewables will still leave renewables cheaper than nuclear. Nuclear is just that bad.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#32403790)
How much storage are you talking about? With the impacts of climate change causing more serious events, can you guarantee you will have enough storage?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:42PM (#32404018)
As much as is needed.

Rare events can be backed up with hydrogen-burning turbines. A simple cycle turbine power plant has 5% of the capital cost of a nuclear power plant of the same output, so this doesn't cost much compared to the all-nuclear solution.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:59PM (#32404218)
How much is as much as needed? 1 week worth? 2 weeks? A month?

If we are going to have hydrogen turbines how much should we have? Enough to cover a quarter of a city?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @06:18PM (#32405218)
The time required just dictates how large the underground storage caverns should be, not how much the turbines cost. There is enormous space for these, and they can be very cheap. As you may know, natural gas demand is seasonally leveled using such caverns.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:27PM (#32405991)
You never answered my question. How much do we need? 1 week worth? 2? A month?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:47PM (#32407368)
Well, natural gas storage is months worth, so that capacity would be there if we needed it. It's going to depend on latitude.

We can look at a model to see how much long term storage is optimal (under various cost assumptions) to deliver a constant output, using historical weather data.

https://model.energy/

For the US, the minimum cost model using 2011 weather data and 2030 cost assumptions uses 6 hours of battery storage and 106 hours of hydrogen storage. For someplace at high latitude, more hydrogen gets used, since it becomes economical to save energy from summer to winter. In Finland, for example, the optimal solution has 2 hours of batteries and 275 hours of hydrogen. On the other side, the solution for Saudi Arabia uses 10 hours of batteries and 48 hours of hydrogen.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by gedy on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:27AM (#32398462)
Virtually all of the CO2 output growth in my lifetime has not been "the West":

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2017/04/Global-CO2-emissi...

and no party seems to push for shutting down imports from Asia, etc.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:27AM (#32399294)
When you very oddly specify "growth" you're suggesting that the "West" that has had high emissions throughout your entire life, and almost certainly cumulatively more in that period, are not to blame because other nations slowly increased to output roughly the same amount but still less per capita?

That's harsh.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by gedy on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:56AM (#32399632)
No, I'm commenting on OP implying the west is not doing enough now on the climate. This is not some commentary on fairness or other political topics.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:06PM (#32399789)
Ok, but the west isn't doing enough and could very easily have done more, and in doing so would have made it easier for everyone else to do more.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by jimbokun on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:41AM (#32399439)
The latest spending bill in US Congress is at least paying lip service to climate change.

Surely not enough, but it's a start.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by throwaway_4ever on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @03:14PM (#32402652)
US Democrats have just passed a huge bill involving climate change mitigation. Republicans are using it as a whipping stick to tell Americans that Democrats don't care about them, climate change is hogwash, and we should instead be focusing on cost of living involving inflation (which Democrats are already doing in tandem).
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Tsukiortu on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @05:44PM (#32418837)
I think a big problem in the US is the terrible separation. Nothing will ever get done with everyone so far to sides and refusing to compromise with each other, always trying to get ahead. Both sides are guilty of it, and It's what made me grow tired of even taking part in the politics here.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:52AM (#32397902)
Shit that is environmentally unsustainable at scale:

- Air travel: The carbon footprint per person is similar to burning your trash for a full year. Did you recycle bottles for a year, planted a tree, donated to WWF, rescued a bird from an oil spill then traveled to an environment conference on another continent? Congratulations, you now pollute more than someone drives monster trucks to work and on burns all of their trash.

- Pollution holidays: Wow, it's that non-descript holiday again. I need to buy lots of single-use decorations made out of plastic and then throw them away days later. For this, I will go to a party store that sells only those items. Most of them are made out of toxic stuff like phthalates, PVC, vinyl, and stuff that will poison me, but hey... It's the non-descript holiday again! If I do this, people will encourage me to do the same every year because I am contributing to the creation of trash that will not degrade for thousands of years, and I will do the same for Halloween, my birthday, Christmas, and every minor holiday in the calendar including my dog's birthday!

- Technology: Oh, look, this hardware runs 5% faster than my current one. I need to dispose the one I have and buy the new one for an absurd amount of money, then discard it again when the next one comes out. It's all sealed and glued inside so that you can't repair it, and no replacement parts are sold. That's a really good idea. I am going to support the companies that do this so that they can continue to sell things that cannot be repaired and will become trash in less than 5 years! Look how fashionable I am with my soon-to-be piece of trash! Surely software companies will make the most out of my new hardware by rewriting everything in BloatedScript to save development costs and adding useless eyecandy that requires a supercomputer.

- Burning man. Need to deal with your emotional problems in a pyromaniac way? just watch a video of a previous burning man burning instead of burning shit every goddamn year, or get into a Minecraft game in VR (preferably your own server) and set all shit on fire, or, even better, work for the fire department and see shit burning all the time, how about that? Fuck...

Edit: corrected wrong info about leaded fuel in aviation. Thanks for the correction

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sokoloff on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:56AM (#32397977)
Only piston-powered air travel uses leaded fuel.

Overwhelmingly, anything that you bought a ticket for (and certainly anything that you took to another continent on a ticket) is burning Jet-A, which does not have a material amount of lead content.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#32398378)
What's wrong with not traveling?

Oh no, I won't be able to spend the money I don't have to impress people that do not care about me in the slightest via Instagram.

Oh no, I won't be able to attend that conference that's 100% recorded and available in video format where I see the material and the presenter in better detail than in person with the ability of replaying, pausing and resuming at any time I want, where 90% of the time the content talked about is an abridged version of what can be learned from a used book, free online documentation or a PDF I can buy for a few dollars.

Oh no, I won't be able to visit some random distant place while there are plenty of nearby places that are just as nice.

Oh no, I won't be able to visit some snobby establishment that sells overrated products such as fermented fruit juice that I don't even really like that much and can't even distinguish from a boxed product sold at 1/100th of the price at my local grocery store.

Surely in 2 generations where everyone is living in a ruined planet eating diseased vermin people will care about my pointless traveling. I am such an important person! I am surely more important than the environment that sustains the life of everyone in the planet that's why I am so entitled to such things.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by probably_wrong on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:10AM (#32399076)
You should consider giving travel a try, though. When done right, it has so many benefits that I cannot recommend it enough.

Among them: it gives you a better perspective on life, it gives you a better understanding of what is there to improve in your own community that you didn't notice before because "we have always done it this way", and it tends to make people less judgemental and/or racist.

People won't care about droughts in Africa they see on TV, but if you could bring them there and see it with their own eyes I can guarantee you they would.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by BlargMcLarg on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:11PM (#32399873)
The majority of benefits you mention are absolutely not applicable to the majority of travelers, specifically those only visiting countries for a short time in areas designed for tourists. Also doesn't take into account repeat tourists (e.g. masses in North/West Europe going south by plane every summer).

There's a humongous difference between your average Ibiza tourist and someone visiting Asia to study the culture. From experience, the majority is far closer to the former than the latter.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by commandlinefan on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:54AM (#32399614)
> it has so many benefits

... but that's true of everything that we could ever consider banning in the name of combatting climate change.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:01PM (#32403443)
When done in a purposeful way, sure.

But for 99% of the people it's like:

- "white sand good. clear water good. sun good."

- "yum, food."

- "tee hee. disney."

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _djo_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:39PM (#32406091)
Not all travel is frivolous, and demonising ordinary people as if they’re doing it for no reason is unhelpful.

There are those who move to new countries and have an entirely reasonable desire to still see their families from time to time.

For business deals and diplomacy, meeting in person remains a far more effective way of building rapport and good working relationships than anything tech can provide just yet.

And travel for tourism, while arguably unnecessary, does contribute to producing more educated & empathetic segments of the population who are more likely to see themselves as part of the world rather than identifying only with their tiny corner of it. It’s a difficult one to quantify, but something we’d notice if it ended. There are also parts of the world that would become much poorer if not for tourism.

I’m all for finding ways to reduce the need for travel, asking people to travel less where possible, and of course pouring investment into decarbonising aviation. We’re at the point where it’s one of the necessary actions society needs to accept.

But don’t pretend these are not very real and in many cases very painful sacrifices we’re asking people to make.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:45PM (#32406146)
You can mention all reasons you want. But travel has to adapt to the needs of a healthy environment and not the other way around.

If that means you have to travel on a donkey for 5 years to make it to a really important conference then so be it. If that's too much then do it online.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _djo_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:48PM (#32406184)
You have spectacularly missed the point, and that’s not a good faith response.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @08:03PM (#32406306)
No, you miss the point.

My point is attacking the central belief in this civilization, which is that human convenience is more important than everything else.

What is more important: a) the extinction of a mammalian species, or b) a few people not being able to see their family? To me the response is very clear: a)

If a) is more important then if 2% of humanity cannot see their family that's OK. It's the cost of sharing the planet with other species that also need to survive.

I don't care if a few million people cry at night, that's better than a species going extinct. Extinction is forever.

In perspective, none of the stuff you mention really matters. Your convenience is not as important because there's 8 billion of you. You are not as special as you think.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sokoloff on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:09PM (#32406773)
All beings on Earth will go extinct at some point; it’s a matter of when. Extending that significantly has merit, but must be traded off against many factors, including convenience and quality of the lives lived until the point of extinction.

Perhaps we should ration the population to 2 Billion or so, to give everyone who lives a better life, mean, median, and mode, than we can at 8 Billion. Perhaps 8B is OK, but only if those 8B each make deeper sacrifices than the 2B would have to…

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:15PM (#32407183)
Starting by eliminating all expectation that it is normal for a human being to travel frequently on planes.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sokoloff on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @03:38AM (#32408846)
Is that the optimal first step in terms of return for the environment over delta-convenience, delta-fun, and attention budget?

I’d expect that other improvements sort far, far higher on the return over expense scale, but are not as symbolic.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @06:55AM (#32410033)
Convenience? fun? Dude... there's a literal extinction going out outside.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _djo_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @08:16PM (#32406399)
That is, again, not what was argued.

Your comment claimed all travel is ‘pointless’ and without any reasonable justification. It was filled with invective for anyone who might have chosen to travel at some point. It was an argument lacking in perspective or empathy.

You’re now trying to turn this into a question of whether these might be justifiable sacrifices but that was never a point of contention. In fact, it’s something I raised first.

As I said, not a good faith response.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @08:50PM (#32406635)
Humanity has to downsize its expectations and ego. Cutting most passenger air travel is a key part of that. Next we should ban most non essential plastic objects. Then slam a sticker in front of every product with its carbon footprint.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by zdragnar on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:04AM (#32398099)
Cargo ships produce upwards of 30% of all NOx pollution, 10% of sulfur dioxide and 3% of all CO2.

When almost everything (except food) that you need to buy comes from China, it is impossible to not be a part of the problem.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @11:33AM (#32399359)
That is an out of date factoid intended to stop the transition to EVs by making ICE pollution seem minor. Even when it was popular it ignored the work being done to fix that problem.

Fortunately, we moved to EVs and now all but the particularly resistant to reality accept they are better than ICE, in quality, efficiency, cost and carbon.

Meanwhile, we also passed some regulations to stop the cargo ships burning really dirty fuel which we were just letting them do for no good reason.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-last-the-shipping-industry...

> Public health experts estimate that once the 2020 sulfur cap takes effect, it would prevent roughly 150,000 premature deaths and 7.6 million childhood asthma cases globally each year.

> “There are very few examples of air quality regulations that have as broad a reach of benefits as this one,” said James Corbett, a professor of marine science and policy at the University of Delaware, who has conducted seminal research on international shipping emissions. “This is going to benefit children and adults in coastal communities located along major shipping lanes — not only [near ports] where ships are delivering cargo.”

So now cargo is both efficient and clean. And people are working on ways to make it even better, usually involving global regulations.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by FerretFred on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:29AM (#32398493)
> When almost everything (except food) that you need to buy comes from China

When almost everything (except food) that you want to buy comes from China

I'd love to buy UK-made stuff but the country sold out to cheap sweatshop nations decades ago

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:38AM (#32398628)
Or buy used stuff that's usually better quality and built to last.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by trashtester on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:44AM (#32398708)
NOx and SO2 are (primarily) local pollutants, and get broken down over time. Cargo ships is a relatively small contributor to greenhouse gases for most items. (I would not be surprised if a few hundred km by truck causes larger greenhouse gas emissions than around-the-world by ship.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ucosty on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:03AM (#32398081)
It's true that some planes fly on leaded fuel, but commercial airlines generally do not. It's only piston engine planes that fly on leaded AvGas, all jet aircraft including tubroprops fly on fuels like Jet A (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel)
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:54AM (#32397943)
Jet fuel (including that burned in turboprop planes) is not leaded.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by themitigating on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:56AM (#32397968)
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sofixa on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:58AM (#32398007)
> Avgas is a specialized fuel used to power piston engine aircraft

The vast majority of airplanes in operation - be it per passenger numbers or cargo tonnes - aren't piston engined but turboprops, turbofans and turbojets.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sokoloff on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:57AM (#32397997)
No, it's not. That article is clearly about leaded aviation gasoline, not Jet-A.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by 29athrowaway on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:58AM (#32398013)
The link says "Jet aircraft and turbine-powered, propeller aircraft do not use avgas, but instead use fuels very similar to kerosene, which does not contain a lead additive."

So I think the reply was accurate.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _djo_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:40PM (#32406100)
That’s not jet fuel.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by lotsofpulp on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:48AM (#32398762)
Might be easier to say 8B people wanting to live the developed country lifestyle most people desire.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by trashtester on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:35AM (#32398588)
Certainly, the upcoming nuclear winters will be a lot cooler.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by porker on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:35AM (#32397645)
Meanwhile the boomer generation in the UK is shouting how the drought of 1976 was worse and they survived without making a fuss (ergo anyone who makes a fuss is "soft", a "snowflake" or has been fooled that climate change is real)

There is no reasoning with them; they see this as a one-off and it'll be 50 years before the next summer like this.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by DharmaPolice on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:05AM (#32398113)
Generalising about generations (one of the most absurd ways of dividing people up) is not helpful. Some of the people making/distributing those dumb 1976 memes on TikTok (and elsewhere) look like they were barely alive in 1976. Conversely, look at the various climate change protests and there's plenty of "boomers" there.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by bambataa on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:57PM (#32400536)
It is however true that the boomer generation has held the electoral power during the years that mattered most and refused to do enough. I don’t think it’s chance that their most popular papers were all the most strident climate deniers.

Younger people should vote more but tbh by the time I was old enough to vote it was already too late to avert what’s happening.

I don’t see any sentiment of “whoops we got it wrong, let’s do what we can now!”. (Or any gratitude for the sacrifices younger people made during lockdowns, but I digress…)

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by bamboozled on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:08AM (#32398182)
But it is frustrating because boomers are basically the law makers and voting majority in 2022.

I have the same experience with so many boomers as the parent. "Hottest summer on record? Aw, I love hot weather". "When I was a kid, it was so hot the tar on the road would stick to me feet?!" etc.