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Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by sofixa on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @09:55AM (#32397958)
Don't lump "West" like that. Germany has a green party in the ruling coalition, in France that stuff is taken somewhat seriously and the second biggest coalition in parliament (that the government has to rely on to pass laws) has an explicit green component. During the election cycle (president and lower chamber of parliament) this spring green and social issues were the main topics of discussion and main component of most campaigns.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#32398388)
Please spare me, the Green party in Germany (and Austria) did more harm than good by pushing for renewables which underdelivered and hidrocarbures over nuclear which they were vehemently against.

Just because you call yourself green doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

And let's not forget how several former high ranking German and Austrian politicians are on the boards of various Russian oil and gas companies, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence and not in any way related to the countries' energy policies. /s

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:36AM (#32398605)
Sorry, but no. Yes, the greens pushed for exiting nuclear, but it was the Merkel government which hastened it and at the same time cut down the deployment of renewables. Germany could be much further ahead without that. We still are at 50% renewables in the mix, while nuclear was at its peak below 30% like 20 years ago.

The ranking German politician is former chancellor Schröder and indeed, this is very much critisized throughout Germany.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:24PM (#32403762)
Just because Merkel nailed the final nail, doesn't mean that the greens didn't build the coffin and nail 3/4 of the nails.

Stop trying to shift the blame off the greens.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:47PM (#32404073)
Stop blaming the greens for what they are not responsible.

Merkel (or rathr her minister Altmaier) shortened the life time of nuclear and more importantly curbed the buildup of renewables. Of course the exit of nuclear can only work with enough renewables being built up and that they not only failed but held back. Add to that the complete one sided dependence of Russian gas - they even sold the German gas storage to Gazprom. Guess why the German storage happened to be empty just at the beginning of the invasion of the Ukraine.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:03PM (#32404261)
Maybe the greens shouldn't have been pushing for things that wasn't practical at that point in time? The greens are at least partially at fault for this. Why push to get rid of nuclear and not build new nuclear before you are ready for alternatives?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @05:12PM (#32404400)
The alternatives where ready many years before the proposed end of nuclear. Solar buildup peaked in 2012 at over 10GWh/year and fell to 1 GWh/year due to political influence. Without the actions of the Merkel government, we would have 5 more years of nuclear and be way further ahead on renewables. So please stop blaming the Greens.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:25PM (#32405976)
I have a few questions.

Where are you getting this 1gwh number? I am seeing 5gwh in 2021. I also am not seeing 10gwh any year. Perhaps I am not looking at the correct numbers?

If solar had its peak in 2012 that means it had its peak under Merkel's time as Chancellor? Which policy do you think Merkel was involved with that caused the drop? I assume you will say the change in feed in tariff? If so then why did the peak occur after years of the tariff continually dropping?

If it is the tariff, then why didn't we see a similar continual decline in the US when the tax credit ended at the end of 2016? There was a few year decline, but solar adoption is now higher than ever.

Would 5 years been enough that nuclear could have been shut down without causing any issues? Nuclear appears to be a large supplier of power in Germany. It doesn't seem likely that 5 years could have allowed solar to displace nuclear. Germany would still be having issues.

Do you have proof that roll out of solar would have continued at the same rate without the change in tariff (or whatever you are blaming Merkel for)?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Friday August 12, 2022 @05:37AM (#32436275)
If you look at this graph: https://www.erneuerbare-energien.de/EE/Redaktion/DE/Bilder/G...

You can see that solar collapsed from 8.2GW/a[1] in 2012 to 1.2GW/a in 2015. Wind collapsed from 4.9GW/a in 2017 to 0.9GW/a in 2019.

I cannot exactly "proove" which decision was exact killer, but of course any decision takes some time to have the full impact, as larger installations usually are planned years ahead, so any change in politics will take years to take full effect. But the collapse of both wind and solar are difficult to miss - and we rather should have a steady growth in both rates or at least maintain the peak rates on a constant level. At minimum one can blame politics not to have acted to keep up with installations. But there were a lot of decisions taken which were clearly impacting the roll out of renewables. And that with a known deadline for the nuclear power plants.

Some decisions taken I can remember:

- the feed in tariff was lowered. Even if that is a constant process, when it crosses the threshhold of no longer being profitable, there will be a steep drop in new installations

- solar started to recover in recent years, probably because due to the cells becoming cheaper so it began to be more profitable again

- as far as I know there was an upper limit for any subsidy, so another reason for a stop of new installations

- for wind power the whole system was changed, leading to a deep decline. Subsidies were auctioned off, but unfortunately not including a time limit for actually installing new capacity. So many projects "won" auctions and were never realized.

The 5 years alone wouldn't probably not suffice to replace the nuclear power plants, but you have to count in as well all the missed capacity after 2012. If we had just continued at 8GW/a and above, solar capacity would almost be double of what it is today. Pretty much the same with wind.

[1] Sorry, might have mistaken the total number on top of the solar bar with the number on the bar. But over 8GW/a is still pretty much it.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:14AM (#32398255)
You mean the "green" party that relentlessly fear-mongered nuclear and got Germany addicted to russian fossil fuels? The one that is going to be forced to start burning coal again?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#32398656)
No, you are mistaking them for the CDU and SPD which got us addicted to russian fuels and at the same time curbed the deployment of renewal sources. The Greens is the party whose minister Harbeck has now to clean up the mess left to him and on short notice, Germany has a reasonable amount of coal power plants which can be reactivated to prevent blackouts. But this is only necessary due to Russia not delivering the agreed amound of gas.

(And ironically on the French nuclear power plants failing due to wear and heat, so that Germany had to produce an additional 20TWh of electricity to keep the grid alive)

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @12:53PM (#32400460)
Germany isn't a barren desert with copious wind and sun. Demonizing nuclear will be looked back upon as cataclysmic fuck-up fueled by pure ignorance.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _ph_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @01:04PM (#32400628)
Germany has enough wind and sun to cover all electricy needs. And the fact that the nuclear-friendly France is not able to replace their aging fleet of power plants shows, that nuclear isn't such a simple or cheap solution. If Germany would push renewables, electricity would be carbon neutral before the first new nuclear power plant could come online.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:14PM (#32401657)
The issue is that neither wind or solar provide baseline generation.

Frances issue aren't with nuclear, but with funding.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @02:52PM (#32402276)
Storage to address the intermittency of renewables will still leave renewables cheaper than nuclear. Nuclear is just that bad.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#32403790)
How much storage are you talking about? With the impacts of climate change causing more serious events, can you guarantee you will have enough storage?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:42PM (#32404018)
As much as is needed.

Rare events can be backed up with hydrogen-burning turbines. A simple cycle turbine power plant has 5% of the capital cost of a nuclear power plant of the same output, so this doesn't cost much compared to the all-nuclear solution.

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @04:59PM (#32404218)
How much is as much as needed? 1 week worth? 2 weeks? A month?

If we are going to have hydrogen turbines how much should we have? Enough to cover a quarter of a city?

Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @06:18PM (#32405218)
The time required just dictates how large the underground storage caverns should be, not how much the turbines cost. There is enormous space for these, and they can be very cheap. As you may know, natural gas demand is seasonally leveled using such caverns.
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by _-david-_ on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @07:27PM (#32405991)
You never answered my question. How much do we need? 1 week worth? 2? A month?
Re:France experiencing worst drought on record by pfdietz on Tuesday August 09, 2022 @10:47PM (#32407368)
Well, natural gas storage is months worth, so that capacity would be there if we needed it. It's going to depend on latitude.

We can look at a model to see how much long term storage is optimal (under various cost assumptions) to deliver a constant output, using historical weather data.

https://model.energy/

For the US, the minimum cost model using 2011 weather data and 2030 cost assumptions uses 6 hours of battery storage and 106 hours of hydrogen storage. For someplace at high latitude, more hydrogen gets used, since it becomes economical to save energy from summer to winter. In Finland, for example, the optimal solution has 2 hours of batteries and 275 hours of hydrogen. On the other side, the solution for Saudi Arabia uses 10 hours of batteries and 48 hours of hydrogen.