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Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:45AM (#32162341)
As an outsider, what boggles my mind the most about America right now isn’t healthcare or inequality. Its gun violence.

Unreal that schools have active shooter training and no one seems to even care. The fact that there is a non-zero chance your kid might be shot at school is completely absurd.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:19AM (#32162564)
Kids are like 80x or more likely to kill themselves than to be killed in a school shooting. It's not even close to the top of list of real issues affecting the country. It's just an easy one to get clicks and political favor that doesn't require us to do any real socio-cultural analysis - just ban guns!

I think active shooter training time would be better spent on counseling, therapy, PE, recess, or just literally letting kids fuck off and hang out with their friends for an hour.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by eriktrautman on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:42AM (#32163046)
Firearm deaths just overtook auto deaths as the leading cause of death in children and adolescents in the US: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

Unclear the portion that is suicides but homicides are the fastest growing segment beyond unintentional poisonings

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by brigandish on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:05AM (#32164006)
From the article:

> Although the new data are consistent with other evidence that firearm violence has increased during the Covid-19 pandemic,5 the reasons for the increase are unclear,

Seems like there is a pretty obvious candidate for that, lockdowns.

Still, only time will tell, as they go on to say with the rest of that quote:

> and it cannot be assumed that firearm-related mortality will later revert to prepandemic levels.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by sneak on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:35AM (#32165579)
This bundles in firearm suicides with firearm homicides, obscuring the real issue.

When most people say "gun violence" they do not mean gun-as-tool-used-in-suicide, they mean nonconsensual use of a firearm against someone.

Suicides are way up. Gun murders are up too, but they're still pretty low in the scheme of things. They're "safe to completely ignore" low if you're not in one of a few specific counties in the US where gang violence causes 70-90% of the gun murders.

The movie plot/evening news gun violence stuff that you hear about is so rare as to be safely ignored in all parts of the US.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by AlexandrB on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:41AM (#32166416)
Making guns harder to access probably reduces suicide rates as well because there are few faster, easier methods of suicide than a gun[1]. I think it's valid to lump gun suicides with other gun violence for this reason.

> The consensus among public health experts is that there is strong evidence that reducing firearm suicides in contexts where more-lethal means of attempting suicide are unavailable will result in reductions in the total suicide rate (see, for example, Office of the Surgeon General and National Action Alliance for Suicide Prevention, 2012; World Health Organization, 2014; for review, see Azrael and Miller, 2016).

[1] https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/suicide.ht...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by JamesBarney on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:36PM (#32171038)
There's actually better evidence gun control will reduce suicides than homicides.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by refurb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:44AM (#32166463)
Yet the US suicide rate is lower than other developed countries that have no guns.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by cinntaile on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:54AM (#32166610)
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by refurb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:15AM (#32166934)
South Korea isn’t a developed nation?
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by TheCoelacanth on Thursday July 21, 2022 @01:28PM (#32182203)
One developed country with few guns having a higher rate but dozens with few guns having a lower rate is not a very strong argument in favor of your point.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by refurb on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:55PM (#32187204)
Yes it does.

It shows there is zero correlation.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by jaredklewis on Friday July 22, 2022 @02:42AM (#32189228)
Only in a simple world where any given phenomenon can only have a single cause.

For example, imagine we find that higher speed limits increase the rate of automobile accidents in a given area. That finding doesn't preclude that poorly maintained roads might also increase the rate of accidents. So just the existence of an area with a high level of car accidents and very low speed limits doesn't necessarily mean that there is no correlation or causal link between speed limits and automobile accidents. It may just mean that the area suffers greatly from other causes (like poorly maintained roads).

Similarly, I think it is fairly intuitive to assume that there are probably a host of causal factors in suicide rates. For sure, means isn't the only factor but it is an important one.

There's been research into means reduction, and it does seem to have an effect on reducing suicide. The hypothesis is fairly intuitive: many suicides are a response to a crisis, and a human in crisis-mode is not always a great problem solver; lack of an obvious means sometimes gives people some extra time to reconsider.

You can read a high level summary of some of the research here: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by mikewhy on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:39PM (#32171093)
Is this data like way off or something? https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/suicide-deaths-firearms
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lern_too_spel on Thursday July 21, 2022 @12:37AM (#32175831)
Yes. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/suicide-deaths-firearms is the correct data. The US is worse than most other developed countries, but not that much worse.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by mikewhy on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:31PM (#32183002)
Did you mean to repost the same link I did?
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lern_too_spel on Friday July 22, 2022 @05:05PM (#32197110)
I did not. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/suicide-death-rates is the corrected link. My HN reader did not update the location bar after clicking to the correct page.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:34AM (#32162996)
Amazing that you can look at kids being shot in primary schools and then try to analyze it statistically.

This doesn't happen anywhere else on the planet outside of war-torn countries. Saying that "actually kids are more likely to kill themselves" is just about peak cope.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:42AM (#32163407)
How else would you analyze the issue?

A binary analysis would lead us to conclude that gun regulations are completely bereft of any benefit whatsoever, given that gun violence, even mass shootings/spree killings, happen in countries with quite strict gun control - I mean, the former PM of Japan was killed via firearm just this month! But that is not the case. There is a clear gradient of occurrence and effectiveness of regulation. So, we need to move into the realm of statistics.

And the statistics are that over the course of the decade from 2010 to 2019 ~350 kids were killed in school shootings, and ~26000 took their own lives.

My assertion is that given these numbers, an inordinate amount of resources, political capital, and conversational bandwidth is being spent on what is actually a rather rare occurrence and that this is largely a waste compared to what we could be spending said resources, political capital, and conversational bandwidth on - namely, solving the problems that affect broad swathes of the populace and that I, and others, believe actually drive people to commit such violence in the first place.

Or, we can spend the next century fretting about a statistically vanishingly rare occurrence, keeping the blue and red tribes divided, making little to no progress on the existential problems that we as a country, culture, society, and species face, as the world becomes increasingly uninhabitable.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:11AM (#32163602)
> given that gun violence, even mass shootings/spree killings, happen in countries with quite strict gun control

They absolutely do not, not even remotely close to the scale and frequency in the United States. At least not in countries with equivalent socio-economic metrics as the US (El Salvador does not count).

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:20AM (#32163666)
>They absolutely do not, not even remotely close to the scale and frequency in the United States.

I thought we weren't analyzing gun violence statistically?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:32AM (#32163735)
We weren't analyzing school shootings statistically, since the statistical incidence of that happening should be as close to zero as possible.

But since you walked down the statistical path anyway, the least you can do is not be completely wrong about it.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:45AM (#32163825)
I see that you have a hard time following an argument and the rhetorical techniques I used. I will break it down.

I compared the rate of school shooting deaths to suicide deaths for the purpose of pointing out the outsized amount of resources the issue takes up.

You claimed that it is wrong to analyze gun violence statistically.

I, for the purpose of demonstrating the absurdity of such an assertion, analyzed gun violence using a non-statistical and binary approach.

You then took exception to me conceding your point for the purpose of argument and using said non-statistical approach by then bringing statistics back into the mix and arguing that the frequency of gun violence is much higher in the US than other places.

So, which is it? Can we, or can we not use statistics to analyze gun violence? If we can, then we can compare the statistics across regulatory regimes and social, economic, and cultural contexts and show that gun violence can be affected in degree by those factors. If we cannot, then we cannot show that regulation is effective, since gun violence still happens in highly varied regulatory regimes and social, economic, and cultural contexts.

I would argue that statistics is an appropriate approach since, in my opinion, it allows us to come to a better reckoning of reality. Ultimately, your view is up to you. But you can't have your cake and eat it too here - you have to either admit that the use of statistics is appropriate, or that aforementioned factors are irrelevant to gun violence occurring. They are simply mutually incompatible views.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by CTmystery on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:36PM (#32169354)
> I see that you have a hard time following an argument and the rhetorical techniques I used. I will break it down.

In this one sentence you betray yourself as uninterested in debate, and instead just like to hear yourself talk. The person you are responding to offered an interesting comparison, that of stats from the US versus other countries (and, I might add, they gamely came to your turf, which you subsequently tried to dismiss). Instead of doing the hard work of revising your views in the face of a potentially fruitful comparison, you dismiss it out of hand and assert your self-righteousness.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:06PM (#32169808)
>The person you are responding to offered an interesting comparison, that of stats from the US versus other countries

They did the exact opposite of this. They asserted that it is wrong to examine this issue statistically.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by CTmystery on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:48PM (#32171203)
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by umanwizard on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:39PM (#32171974)
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by CTmystery on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:32PM (#32172661)
Right, that was spaceman's original post.

Spaceman posted > rbj challenged that stats should be used > spaceman answered, alluding to stats widely searchable > rbj dismissed the use of stats.

Edit: Re-reading through all posts, I see I am incorrect in this summary.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:37AM (#32164860)
> I see that you have a hard time following an argument and the rhetorical techniques I used. I will break it down.

Classic. They're not having trouble following your argument. They just disagree.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rayiner on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:07PM (#32167785)
They’re not just disagreeing. They’re asserting that you shouldn’t analyze the issue statistically (I.e. they reject the notion of putting it into context) but defending the non-zero rate of gun deaths in other countries with statistics.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:55AM (#32165078)
They clearly disagree. But they've done so very poorly, as I'm sure you can see.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by closewith on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:37AM (#32166358)
> But they've done so very poorly, as I'm sure you can see.

This reads as appalling smug. Whether spaceman_2020 made a good argument or not, you are quibbling over ultimately unimportant figures when the situation remains that mass shootings of children in their schools are orders of magnitude more common in the US than other developed countries.

You should also be appalled by the adolescent suicide rate involving firearms - that's also not normal.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:55AM (#32166620)
Yeah, it's really fucked up.

I just think that, given the status quo, the best approach to reducing all forms of gun violence is to just generally make life better for everyone, and that the resources spent on trying to wrench guns from the hands of the citizenry are much better spent on just about anything else.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:42PM (#32168395)
> But they've done so very poorly, as I'm sure you can see.

Can't really hear your argument, if any, over the smug.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:44PM (#32168430)
Fair. I've been told I can be a real asshole when I get to arguing. Sorry.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by housingisaright on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:26AM (#32167140)
How do I report a comment on HN? These comments can’t be serious
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by umanwizard on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:40PM (#32171987)
They seem serious to me, and well-argued.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by ineptech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:39PM (#32168331)
click on the "1 hour ago"
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by shkkmo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:29AM (#32166258)
And since you agree that it is useful to compare school shooting statistics between countries, then you should also agree that it would be more effective to spend more time and resources combating suicides than school shootings. The relative difference in mass shooting rates based on gun control strictness is much smaller than the relative rates between mass shooting deaths and suicides.

This is not an argument against gun control, but against spending so much time and effort fighting for that gun control at the cost of letting slip the lower hanging fruit that could prevent more deaths.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by fleetwoodsnack on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:08AM (#32163584)
It’s really quite simple, you didn’t have to spell out your confusion so elaborately:

Statistics deals in degrees; violence against children is something that is sufficiently cognized in absolutes.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by JamesBarney on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:37PM (#32171056)
If we shutdown all schools we would have 0 mass shootings at schools.

This is the only moral choice when dealing with absolutes.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by fleetwoodsnack on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:44PM (#32173393)
Not really, that’s just one (extreme) proposal. I understand the self-gratifying impulse to write something like that though: it absolves the responsibility and work of addressing the problem, and frustrates the conversation away from finding solutions toward justifying the need to find a solution at all. It even makes you feel clever for a half-second.

A cute rhetorical parlor trick.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by JamesBarney on Friday July 22, 2022 @10:30PM (#32199659)
You said it was an absolute. Once we start weighing the costs against other things we care about like education it becomes a relative cost.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by fleetwoodsnack on Saturday July 23, 2022 @01:29PM (#32205473)
This is a principles based analysis. Pretty common in public policy.

Principle 1: Children should not be victims of arbitrary violence

Principle 2: Children should be educated

These are compatible principles. Your proposal (one of many potential proposals) is to undermine principle two rather than addressing the source of the issue which is violent third parties.

And to forestall any further swiss-cheese a priori logic: this is not something fantastical. There are other societies with have honored both principles one and two, and have experienced zero, as in ABSOLUTELY zero acts of mass violence in educational settings.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by odessacubbage on Thursday July 21, 2022 @11:29AM (#32180563)
this is unironically my solution
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by chii on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:15AM (#32165338)
policy decisions and budget allocation should an emotionless utility function that allocates what produces the best outcome with maximal efficiency.

To do otherwise is to be biased one way or another.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by selimnairb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:27AM (#32164186)
> How else would you analyze the issue?

Um, I don’t know maybe morally? As in, it is morally abhorrent and unconscionable for children to be preyed upon in school, one of the places they should safe by definition.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:36AM (#32164245)
Okay.

I agree that kids should not be preyed upon in schools.

Now what?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by selimnairb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:08AM (#32164569)
Get rid of fucking assault rifles. Ban their sale. Mandatory buybacks. Jail time for violators. There are lots of other problems contributing to school shootings, e.g. alienated males due to retraction of empire, loss of manufacturing jobs due to financialization of the economy, erosion of mental health safety net due to privatization and disinvestment. All of these issues need to be addressed. But when the patient is bleeding out, you first STOP THE BLEEDING.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:17AM (#32164653)
That won't be happening. The second amendment is a thing. Demographics and opinion polls show that we won't be getting rid of it any time soon. Assault Rifles are in common use, thus will not be banned any time soon. The current regime seems poised to expand, rather than restrict, the types of arms which we have the right to bear.

This is ultimately my point - we have a lot of other avenues to address the problem rather than this, IMO, fruitless attempt to deal with the guns.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by ineptech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:27PM (#32168152)
Of course it's hard to do, but that doesn't change the fact that getting rid of most guns is clearly and obviously the way to significantly reduce the amount of gun violence in the US. Contesting this is too silly to take seriously, like an alcoholic saying "I know I've been fired from my last three jobs for showing up drunk, but we have lots of other avenues to address this..."

And just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. If one side can stack the Supreme Court with people who suddenly realize there's no constitutional right to privacy, the other side can find some judges to suddenly notice the "well-regulated militia" part of the second amendment, and act accordingly.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Maursault on Thursday July 21, 2022 @06:17AM (#32177588)
> The second amendment is a thing.

Gun-control opponents... generally choose to ignore the first clause altogether, hoping that no one notices that there was never an unabridged right to gun ownership.[1]

The solution to the gun-control issue and, perhaps, to some of the lawlessness in our communities is for the states to invoke the Second Amendment and require gun owners to join a militia.[1)

The 2nd Amendment says well-regulated militia shall not be infringed, it's the right of the people. Gun owners should be drafted into militia and whipped into shape. Whether regulation works or not is incidental because the 2nd requires it.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1987/08/22/t...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by selimnairb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:31AM (#32164802)
Contemporary (mis)interpretation of 2A is relatively recent. Nothing is impossible in this realm.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:38AM (#32164881)
Careless deference to the 2nd amendment (more generally, deference to "the constitution") is among the reddest flags you can throw.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:54AM (#32165053)
Not really deference. Just a cold analysis of the state of things.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:40PM (#32168353)
You can't just say "the 2nd amendment" and assume we all mean the same thing. Radical misinterpretation is way too common for that.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by raxxorraxor on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:28PM (#32172597)
What do you think it would mean?
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spacemanmatt on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:07AM (#32177932)
That's a good question, and an illustrative one. It means what supports my argument, considering I have only invoked the amendment by name rather than by any specific consequence or ruling. I hope this helps to illustrate the sham of simply calling out "the constitution" or "the 2nd amendment" as a reason.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by crypot on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:38PM (#32168320)
I am pretty sure clear backpacks will solve the problem. I read about it on twitter.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Ancapistani on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:04PM (#32167741)
> Get rid of fucking assault rifles. Ban their sale. Mandatory buybacks. Jail time for violators.

I understand your perspective, and I believe I understand how you arrived at it. I even largely share your concern - but I don’t think you fully realize just how repugnant it is to many people.

Have you considered how many lives your proposal would cost, or how likely it would be to succeed in any measurable way?

This is not a rhetorical question. I would definitely consider myself part of “American gun culture.” I would resist disarmament with lethal force if necessary. That statement may be somewhat shocking in this context it wouldn’t so much as raise an eyebrow amongst gun owners.

… and this is about banning one kind of weapon. One kind. An ill-defined class of firearms that are used in a tiny fraction of crimes. How many deaths would be worthwhile to make that happen?

> But when the patient is bleeding out, you first STOP THE BLEEDING.

Attempting to disarm the US may or may not “stop the bleeding” - but I’m extremely confident that it would create many times more patients.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by kcplate on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:03AM (#32165189)
> Get rid of fucking assault rifles

There hasn’t been an “assault rifle” used in a school shooting for decades. “Assault rifles” are highly regulated— it’s nearly impossible to own one. There have been a fair number of sporting semi-auto rifles used in mass shootings.

Can we please stop describing these weapons as something they are not? The “AR” in AR-15 means “ArmaLite Rifle”. ArmaLite being the company that originally developed the weapon.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by stevenjgarner on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:26PM (#32168129)
> There hasn’t been an “assault rifle” used in a school shooting for decades. “Assault rifles” are highly regulated— it’s nearly impossible to own one.

Respectfully, aren't these definitions just semantics about firing capability?

My understanding is the mass-shooter weapon of choice, the AR-15 is semi-automatic-only (ie not an assault rifle [0]) as they do not have select-fire capability, meaning the capability of a weapon to be adjusted to fire in semi-automatic, multi-short burst, and/or automatic firing mode. Semi-automatic fire means that one shot is fired upon each depression of the trigger. [1]

Regardless of firing capability, there is "overwhelming evidence that the AR-15 could bring more firepower to bear than the M14" [2] battle rifle [3].

This evidence is borne out in our schools [4]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

[1] http://www.weaponslaw.org/glossary/selective-fire

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#M16

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

[4] https://archive.ph/IJKT6

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:20PM (#32172499)
> Respectfully, aren't these definitions just semantics about firing capability?

Statements like "ban all assault rifles" require semantics, and the entire discussion around "which weapons to ban" is entirely semantics. If this person genuinely means "assault rifle", then you already can't own these as a civilian (generally, unless it was made before 1986 and you pay a ton of money for it). If this person means "assault weapon", then we're talking about a poorly defined class of weapons, which are largely based on cosmetic features.

> My understanding is the mass-shooter weapon of choice, the AR-15

The AR-15 is the most common rifle in the country. It's a popular rifle because it can do everything. It's cheap, you can hunt with it if you want (larger magazines are popular for hunting feral hogs, which are infesting the south), you can shoot sporting competitions with it. If you want to shoot a different caliber, for example to change to .22 for cheap target shooting, you can pop two pins, swap to a second upper, and go ahead and plink away at your soda cans. With it being the most popular platform of rifle in the US, of course it pops up in mass shootings. Wanting to ban the AR-15 is like wanting to ban RAM 2500s because they're the "truck of choice for drunk drivers" [1].

> "overwhelming evidence that the AR-15 could bring more firepower to bear than the M14" [2]

A potential, but never materialized, military AR-15 that they're talking about here, would have been select-fire. Then that military AR-15 would be an assault rifle. This has no bearing on semi-automatic AR-15s not being an assault rifle.

This is the third uninformed comment from you that I've needed to respond to today, loaded with more sources but lacking comprehension.

[1] https://insurify.com/insights/car-models-most-duis-2020/

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by selimnairb on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:27AM (#32165503)
Okay, ban all that stuff too. Why do people need more than pistols, shotguns, and basic rifles? I can’t own a nuclear weapon. So clearly there is a line.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:56AM (#32166637)
Do you know how many people are killed by rifles per year in the US?

...

Around _400_[1]. That's ALL rifles. Hunting rifles, bolt action, "assault weapons", whatever, in a country with ~300M-1B guns and a population of 330M. While we should look at why these deaths happening, banning the tool used to commit such an incredibly low number of crimes is just silly. I'd compare it to trying to ban swimming pools because 390 people drown in them per year [2]. "No one NEEDS a swimming pool, ban them all!"

People like you that want to go off and "ban everything" while being completely uninformed and refusing to do any kind of simple research are the worst kind of voters / citizens.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in...

[2] https://www.edgarsnyder.com/statistics/swimming-pool-statist...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by JasserInicide on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:08PM (#32167805)
The problem with the pool argument is that a pool isn't designed to kill. Guns are. Hunting, self-defense...doesn't matter.

Not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but that is a common retort.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:21PM (#32168029)
Guns _are_ designed to kill, and yet they (rifles) still kill around the same number people as pools. I take this as further evidence that the "assault weapon problem" is blown completely out of proportion in the media.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by stevenjgarner on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:18AM (#32166997)
The 2nd amendment says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." [0]

My understanding is that it is up to the courts (ultimately the US Supreme Court) to interpret the Constitution, and define things like "Arms", "security", etc..

> I can’t own a nuclear weapon

Careful what you wish for. If personal nuclear weapons ever become a thing, they too may be "Arms" "necessary to the security of a free State". It is hard to understand some rulings of the Supreme Court.

At the time of writing the 2nd Amendment (December 15, 1791), the accepted "Arm" was a musket, with a muzzle velocity between 1425 fps (434 m/s) and 1700 fps (518 m/s) with a ¾” (19.05 mm) diameter ball (. 640 caliber), and an approximate weight of .9 oz (25.5 g) [1]. Today the court accepts that an ArmaLite AR-15 is an "Arm", with a muzzle velocity of 3,300 ft/s (1,006 m/s) using a .223 Remington cartridge with a 55 g FMJ bullet [2].

The momentum of the AR-15 round is therefore approx 55,330 gm/s compared to 13,209 gm/s for the musket ball (ie more than 4 times greater). Too many American shooters make the mistake of thinking these modern "lightweight" weapons translate into less lethality, but it is the increased momentum from higher muzzle velocities that does the devastating damage to soft tissue and bone.

Take a look at the X-ray of a leg showing a bullet wound delivered by an assault rifle used in combat compared to an X-ray of a leg that sustained a bullet wound from a low-energy bullet, inflicted by a weapon like a handgun in Philadelphia. [3]. The trauma surgeons of the 19 children killed in the Robb Elementary massacre reported "They were so pulverized, he said, that they could be identified only by their clothing." [4]

[0] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-2/

[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15740773.2019.16...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/health/parkland-shooting-...

[4] https://khn.org/news/article/trauma-surgeons-uvalde-mass-sho...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by kcplate on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:14PM (#32174614)
> At the time of writing the 2nd Amendment (December 15, 1791), the accepted "Arm" was a musket, with a muzzle velocity between 1425 fps (434 m/s) and 1700 fps (518 m/s) with a ¾” (19.05 mm) diameter ball (. 640 caliber), and an approximate weight of .9 oz (25.5 g) [1]. Today the court accepts that an ArmaLite AR-15 is an "Arm", with a muzzle velocity of 3,300 ft/s (1,006 m/s) using a .223 Remington cartridge with a 55 g FMJ bullet [2].

Why is it that political philosophy that hates constitutional originalism in every other case wants to try and selectively apply some weird quasi-originalist argument not to the amendment itself but to two individual words within it?

If the amendment was written before muskets were common would you argue in only applied to swords, bows, slings, and catapults? The amendment is about providing the populace with a mechanism to keep tyranny in check, its not about caliber and projectile ft/s.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:19PM (#32167991)
You're throwing a lot of numbers around in an attempt to look like you know what you're talking about. Ballistics and wound cavities are much, much more complicated than just "more momentum == more deadly".

Example: The US military just replaced the .223 with .277 Fury for exactly the reason that the .223 is _too fast_ and doesn't shed enough energy when hitting a target.

Furthermore, you're mixing grains (gr) and grams (g). A 55gr (grain) bullet is 3.56 grams. A 0.9oz musket ball is 25.5 grams. So your momentum calculations are (11'067-13'209) grams * m/s for a musket and 3'581 grams * m/s. So the musket actually has 3+ times more momentum than the .223 round.

Musket balls are absolutely huge, there are effectively zero modern rifles which shoot a .640 caliber round. The .223 is a very small rifle round.

https://www.quora.com/Would-it-be-worse-to-be-shot-with-a-mu...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by stevenjgarner on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:39PM (#32168326)
I'm "throwing ... numbers around" and including citations precisely so that someone like yourself can illuminate where my understanding is incorrect. I appreciate your clarification between grains and grams.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:05PM (#32168800)
Good, then go edit your comment to reflect reality.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by stevenjgarner on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:08PM (#32167809)
This does not even get into the expanding, or hollow-point, bullets used in the AR-15's to open upon impact and cause more damage to their targets. [0]

[0] https://archive.ph/kCfK4#selection-781.2-784.0

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by a4a4a4a4 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:02PM (#32169750)
The purpose of hollow points is to reduce over penetration, so the bullet doesn’t go through the target and injure someone else behind it.

Can you stop with the nonsense? You produce it faster than I can correct you.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by raxxorraxor on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:00AM (#32165914)
You jail a father, kid gets mocked in school because the father is in jail and he kills some mates with a knife.

I don't believe any of the points you make are drivers of violence at all. You perhaps failed to analyze the typical issues.

I do agree that a society might want to ban guns. Policing is much safer and there are a lot of other advantages. Fewer deaths too of course. But I heavily doubt the presence of guns is reason for an increase in violence among younger people. On the contrary, I think some people are well underway to create self-fulfilling prophecies. Security at schools is part of that.

There is a recent increase in crime but certainly to none of the factors you mentioned. I live happily in a country without access to assault rifles. But we probably disagree on what constitutes drivers of violence.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by hobo_in_library on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:23PM (#32168059)
It always surprises me to see people proposing a blanket ban on these kinds of guns despite the fact that all school shooters were young men under 25 years old.

You could just limit sales of these guns to folks over 25 and make everyone much safer.

In fact, every single school shooter was white...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lkois on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:24AM (#32165455)
By binary analysis, it sounds like you mean to claim that 99% effective isn't close enough to 100%. For most people that would be enough. Because I don't know how else you could conclude that gun regulations are bereft of any benefit whatsoever, even hypothetically, without manufacturing such an unfair hurdle to obfuscate the obvious: gun violence requires access to guns.

It seems like you want to say that broader mental health problems are more important than gun violence, but that's only more reason to restrict access to guns. Most other places in the world are able to recognise that mental illness and guns are a bad mix, and act accordingly. The US has had nearly one third of the mass shootings in the world since the 60s yet people like you continue to defend access to guns as though it's not a contributing factor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_S...). That alone seems to point to one of those broad problems affecting the populace. It doesn't have to be the only cause, to merit a treatment.

The rest of the world doesn't view gun access as a given, or even a good. It's earned and revered, or prevented, but never normalised. It's why Abe's assassin had to make his own gun, because Japanese laws didn't make things easier for him. It's why here in Australia, even gangsters don't even have guns, for the most part https://youtu.be/BYsXCnxbnj0?t=461

But we don't judge the effectiveness of these restrictions by some bogus standard of absolute zero gun violence. We judge them by assessing our rare incidents of gun violence, and whether we think we think we could or should have done more to prevent them from obtaining and using a firearm.

And when we look at the numbers of mass shootings in the US, particularly in sensitive places like schools, we wonder how in the world you can think you're doing enough.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by tacitusarc on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:57AM (#32165872)
This approach assumes a moral equivalence to all gun violence. I believe people tend to assign a significantly higher negative moral weight to the murder of children in general, and children at school in particular. You may disagree with that weighting, but it’s an entirely consistent and valid model.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by shkkmo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:33AM (#32166297)
I don't see the moral difference between taking a gun and shooting a kid and bullying and harassing a kid until they are driven to take a gun and shoot themselves.

Both are horrific, but the latter seems even more horrific because it includes not only death, but psychological torture before the death.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by res0nat0r on Thursday July 21, 2022 @11:08AM (#32180294)
Most folks outside the USA (where I live) that I've worked with / spoken to say that we're completely insane and it's embarrassing that we allow the incredible amount of gun violence that we do. All my coworkers overseas think it's unreal and really intolerable that we allow the level of gun violence that we do.

People need to quit embarrassing themselves trying to somehow reason away why the USA is an outlier via some kind of cope metric. It's the guns.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by readme on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:08PM (#32173064)
you could start by using actual data

your 80:1 stat seems pretty dubious -- do you have a source for it?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by heavyset_go on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:12AM (#32163223)
I like how it's an argument that mocks gun regulations with the fact that more kids kill themselves with guns than they do each other.

Firearm related injuries are the #2 killer of children after automotive accidents[1]. The rate of firearm related deaths for young people went up nearly 14% between 2019 and 2020 alone.

I do agree with the importance of socio-economic solutions, though, even before gun regulations.

[1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by imtringued on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:00AM (#32163161)
Yes the fear isn't that your kid is being shot by a school shooters the fear is that your child must.kive in a society where school shooting and the long chain of developmental problems that caused these issues has been fully normalized.

We have enough food and housing for everyone right now, except in some popular places, why exactly have we become so desperate? Why can't we give up some economic growth and use the resources we have on general human well-being?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by raxxorraxor on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:49AM (#32165751)
> Amazing that you can look at kids being shot in primary schools and then try to analyze it statistically.

You have to. For effective policy you need to distance yourself from the deed no matter how terrible they are. All other venues for grief are better than policies motivated by retribution, which will very likely not lead to constructive outcomes and resulting in repeats. Otherwise you end up invading random countries because someone attacked you.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by sudosysgen on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:10PM (#32172371)
There is a psychological dimension to your kid having to confront the possibility of being shot in school being mere numbers of deaths.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by BobbyJo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:28AM (#32163713)
What else should you do when considering legislation? Should we legislate by blindly trying to stop anything bad? That doesn't seem like a good idea.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by anotherhue on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:00AM (#32163156)
I agree with your sentiment but I wish your claims were true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_...
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:08AM (#32163583)
Man, your own list is filled with a) third world countries, and b) actual terrorist attacks.

You're being disingenuous if you're trying to claim that, say, the Beslan School Siege is the same as the Columbine school shooting. One was committed by a terrorist organization with a political goal. The other was just a couple of fellow students.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lucideer on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:26PM (#32170897)
Man what is the relevance of this comment? The existence of Beslan on that page has nothing to do with US shootings - the gp was just referring you to US stats that contradict your comment. Nothing to do with Beslan.
[dead]
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:33AM (#32164224)
Obvious race baiting is obvious.

Say what you mean instead of being a fucking pussy and dancing around it by asking pointed questions that we have to then fill in the blanks on.

Do you mean to say "people in Africa and the diaspora thereof have a shit culture and the places they reside end up being war-torn and using child soldiers?"

If so, say so. If not, please clarify because I may just not be quite smart enough to grok your meaning if it is otherwise.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by eastbound on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:46PM (#32171166)
It’s a problem that is taboo.

And if the taboo suddenly blew up? I believe I’d actually blame it on culture, not race.

We can do amazing things with culture. Let’s try. But we can only tackle it if we can address the taboo problem.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:00PM (#32172998)
Which you continue to dance around and refuse to elucidate.

Speak clearly.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lkois on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:42AM (#32163409)
>Kids are like 80x or more likely to kill themselves than to be killed in a school shooting. It's not even close to the top of list of real issues affecting the country.

But what's the comparison with the rest of the world here? Are you trying to counter the claim that gun violence is a uniquely American issue? Or are you saying that even higher rates of youth suicide are an even more American issue? Because suicide happens everywhere, but unless the US is doing remarkably well on this, that 80x figure is still far far lower than any other developed country. Where, you know, a non-non-zero chance of shootings means infinite more chance of suicide, most other places in the world.

You're dismissing an acute problem with common sense solutions behind issues that are common enough to almost be normal, in order to justify doing nothing. It's like someone's pointed at your bleeding foot and you've said it's fine, because you've also got high cholesterol.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:44AM (#32163422)
I elaborated here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32163407

But TL;DR: I think that the juice is not worth the squeeze and that it is just another issue for the two tribes to fight about while the ruling class continues to destroy the human habitat and loot our country's wealth.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by ineptech on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:35PM (#32168282)
The number of school shooting victims in the US looks small compared to the number of suicide victims, and it also looks small compared to the number of cancer victims, or the number of car crash victims, or the distance to the moon in inches. But all of those seem like ways to distract people from comparing it to the number of school shooting victims in other countries.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by dr_dshiv on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:22AM (#32163289)
It would also help to have mentally healthy streets and neighborhoods that kids and adults can safely play in. Ideally without worrying about violence of any kind.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by chii on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:20AM (#32165393)
Taking away guns does not solve the reason for which they become used by some people.

The cost, such as politically and time & energy to lobby, would be better spent making the social net better, or add more mental health services that target more people, and to prevent people from getting to a state of destitution (and fall into crime).

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by dr_dshiv on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:54AM (#32165823)
I generally agree. However, I’d say “both/and” is reasonable. Yes, let’s avoid a society filled with destitution—the market actually works better when you take care of people. Also, let’s stop the proliferation of murder machines. A conservative court should recognize that there is not an individual right to bear arms except by the convention of the court. The second amendment supports well-regulated militias. The current court is not conservative so much as cynical.

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by lawgimenez on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:32AM (#32164210)
I don’t understand your reasoning. US is the only country in the whole universe that has an active shooter problem in schools. Why in the world shoot kids in the first place?
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rjbwork on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:41AM (#32164284)
>Why in the world shoot kids in the first place?

I don't know. I certainly don't think anyone should be shooting kids.

>US is the only country in the whole universe that has an active shooter problem in schools.

Because we have guns that are relatively available and a handful of wingnuts that want to hurt kids.

That said, it is not the only place that has a violence against children problem. Not even the only place with a violence against children in schools problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by tcmart14 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:45PM (#32169497)
Agree and disagree. I dont think it is as simple as an issue that just gets clicks. It is a real issue because it is insane. Where I agree is, no one wants to do any real analysis to figure out how we got here because, its not a simple a problem. It is a problem with a lot of sources, and being able to tackle this, will probably help in other areas (like suicide rates).

Good way to word it. Suicides alone are an NP hard problem. Homelessness is an NP Hard problem, etc. Mass shooting could be a sort of NP Complete problem. If you can come up with solutions that prevent mass shootings, those same solutions will probably greatly reduce the others.

Just to name, a probably short, list of sources.

- We have a poor gun culture. Guns used to be viewed as tools, now they are some cool gadget that is apart of someone's identity.

- We often ignore and stigmatized mental health issues. If you want mental health, you are seen as weak or pathetic. When in reality, we probably all could use some sort of neutral third party counseling at the very least to talk about issues we individually face out loud.

- Insurance coverage is pretty shitty for mental health. My last employer had good benefits, good medical benefits, but it only covered 3 or 4 mental health appointments. Other than that, it was a decent plan.

- We probably should honestly evaluate the process of purchasing a firearm. You can be placed on a no-fly list for suspected involvement in terrorist activities, but can still purchase a gun? Doesn't seem to make sense to me at all.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Bhilai on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:43PM (#32168415)
As a parent of kids in public schools in a state that has open carry laws, school shootings are definitely top of the list of things I hate about America. And yes, I do think banning guns is on the table for me as a solution to this problem. I would wholeheartedly vote for representative who support banning guns. Spare me your lecture on 2A, if you think your rights to carry assault weapons reigns over the life of kids, then there is not much to debate about. Its astounding that gun proponents refuse to accept that Kids exists in all other countries across the world and kids are kids with their video games, all of their insecurities and mental health problems but America is the only country where school shootings are rampant.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by jamie_ca on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:45PM (#32169488)
They can both be problems?

US Teen suicide looks like around 8-11 per 100k, age 15-19, depending on year (source: https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/health-of-wom...), with 9 states over 20.

Compare to Germany, 184 between age 15-20 (https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/213427) from a population of 5.41 million (https://www.statista.com/statistics/454349/population-by-age...), or 3.4 per 100k.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by watwut on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:34AM (#32164823)
> It's not even close to the top of list of real issues affecting the country.

They do have active shooter drills as routine part of education. And schools have cops in them routinely and Americans talk about it as normal. You cant those wish away, those are very really affecting the country.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by ZetaZero on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:03AM (#32166763)
> Kids are like 80x or more likely to kill themselves than to be killed in a school shooting.

Sure, if you limit the numbers to just school shootings. Why not count all kid deaths by firearms? A kid is twice as likely to die by bullet than by suicide.

School shootings are just the currently most visible form of kid death by bullet.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by electrondood on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:57AM (#32167611)
Their point wasn't the risk relative to other causes of death for children. Their point was that the US is the only country in the world where this happens, frequently.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by cm2187 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:05AM (#32162471)
For school shootings, it’s rationally absurd to worry about those rare events. It’s like worrying about dying from a terrorist attack or a plane crash in France. The probability is mathematically non zero, and the country makes a big deal when that happens, but it is statistically a non problem.

Being confronted with an armed robber in a home invasion is more of a problem in the US (but France has its own fair share of violent crime). Outside of that I think the bulk of gun violence is suicides and gang on gang violence.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by apexalpha on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:36AM (#32162672)
>It’s like worrying about dying from a terrorist attack or a plane crash in France.

The aviation sector is one of the most regulated on earth and has extreme safety standards for exactly this reason: we don't want to crash.

Societies also implemented security measures after terrorist attacks. Especially after Bataclan in France.

These are extremely rare events because we take measures to prevent them.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by chii on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:23AM (#32165445)
> Societies also implemented security measures after terrorist attacks.

i would argue that those measures are costing more than the attacks themselves. It's security theater - high cost (in terms of time and resources), high visibility (politically). But doesn't really prevent any terrorist attacks, because terrorist attacks are fairly rare all things considered.

So you can say that those terrorists' attack succeeded in making the lives of those they attacked worse, and it's because we let them dictate due to "fear", rather than rationally ignore them.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Clubber on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:25AM (#32166213)
>These are extremely rare events because we take measures to prevent them.

When you use the TSA and Patriot Act as an example of meaningful, useful legislation, you're probably not on strong footing. One is considered an expensive boondoggle jobs program, the other is tasked with illegal mass spying of US citizens and deprivation of rights. Neither shows any strong evidence of preventing terrorist acts. Its legislation like these that give gun owners pause of any "common sense" gun control solutions implemented based on emotion.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by polypodiopsi on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:46AM (#32167425)
Apexalpha was talkimg about bataclan in France. The european context is super different from the US context. For example this year someone killed one person in a Amoklauf (~schoolshooting) in germany with a sports crossbow. These things will now be put under weapons regulation, and will be basically unavailable to the general public. As they should be. What does anyone really NEED, a crossbow for?
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Clubber on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:45PM (#32168436)
>What does anyone really NEED, a crossbow for?

This isn't a very compelling argument, and it's kinda intellectually dishonest because you wouldn't accept any answer I gave you. You are now acting as "dear leader," who decides what individuals do or don't need.

Why does anyone NEED to go over 10 miles per hour, why does anyone NEED more than one pair of shoes? Why does anyone NEED coffee, tea, beer, lots of things, why does anyone NEED a fast computer? Why does anyone NEED cologne or perfume? Why does anyone NEED dessert? Why does anyone NEED fashionable clothes? Why does anyone NEED art? How do you even justify that outside of a profit motive in a way you will accept? See it's a trick you are playing.

Of course to answer your question, a gun would be the preferred tool. If you ever go camping in the woods, they are certainly handy. If someone tries to rape or murder you, it would certainly come in handy. If you were a woman (or a man even) and attracted a crazy stalker, invaluable. If you have a massive plague where the police stop working and society stops functioning correctly, it would certainly come in handy. Remember covid?

>These things will now be put under weapons regulation, and will be basically unavailable to the general public.

Of course, someone will kill someone with a bow and arrow, then it will be banned, then someone will kill someone with a knife, and they will ban the "scary looking" ones. Then someone will use a slingshot and those will get banned. You know it's all just a theatrical overreaction at that point to placate the hysterical masses.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by polypodiopsi on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:34PM (#32170213)
Lol. All the things you listed are more or less harmless to others, or general purpose tools/forms (mihht dispute art in this regard but I'm personally very willing to accept the dangers that art poses). A crossbow is an updated medieval weapon, that by the way, lower aristocracy (knights) at that time, tried to declare a warcrime, because it could penetrate the state of the art armour... What's it with the desserts? They are tasty and, if you're not scared of crazy clowns that try to embaress you in public, more or less harmless.Certainly not a weapon. Our forests here went through some thousand years of culture and there really isn't anything a manly man would need to defend himself against. Maybe the ones on the border to/in czech republic, but where that is the case, these areas are natural reserves, and you're not supposed to go there unless you leave no traces. Certainly not shooting left and right on animals for some sporting fun.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by polypodiopsi on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:18PM (#32170813)
Well there is possibly enjoyment in all of these things. Now you might say: "yeah thats true for weapons also". And that I think is precisely the problem. Why do you think the enjoyment of having a weapon, owning it, feeling the potential power of it, should be acceptaple? If you want to argue then why I dont make that argument for other things, I'll habe to tell you: There is a word for people who argue like that: imbecile. Stop playing stupid games by seemingly following sime logic, that is purely linguistical and onedimensional and take responibility for xou're critical cognitive capabilities, by realising that weapons are a different category than desserts and computers, and try to realise that the enjoyment of something that is made to kill might be a perversion, not a right.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Clubber on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:42PM (#32170331)
>All the things you listed are more or less harmless to others, or general purpose tools/forms (mihht dispute art in this regard but I'm personally very willing to accept the dangers that art poses).

Yes, but why do you NEED them, isn't that the argument you made?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:35AM (#32163003)
> For school shootings, it’s rationally absurd to worry about those rare events.

Rare events that only happen in America.

I don't know what kind of parent looks at a rare event where their kid might die and says "yeah, I'm okay with that".

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by korijn on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:20AM (#32163277)
You can make them extremely rare to non-existent. Why the US people do not jump at the opportunity is beyond me.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by scambier on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:19AM (#32162565)
"School shootings are mathematically irrelevant", what a take.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:38AM (#32162690)
Talk about normalisation of deviance!

I've read that more children have died of gunshot wounds this year than police officers have died in the line of duty.[1]

Granted, there are probably more school children at school than there are police at work on any given day, so ... of course children are more likely to be shot at a school?

But then again, here in Australia we have reasonable gun control after that mass schooling in Tasmania all those years ago ... and the country still turned to shit ... so?

While were here, anyone else got any arguments no one would intentionally make?

1. https://en.as.com/latest_news/more-children-have-died-in-sch...

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by chii on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:27AM (#32165498)
and thousands more died due to motor traffic accidents (https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/prelimina...)

The outrage always happens on politically charged subjects, but worse outcomes happen on the roads, and nobody talks about it as though it was normal.

Kids should fear crossing the street more than an active shooter. While i don't disagree that gun control is a good outcome, the difficulty of achieving it in the US is real. Effort is better spent addressing the root cause of gun violence, rather than attempting to take the guns away and just hope that the violence doesn't occur.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Handytinge on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:46PM (#32321989)
> Kids should fear crossing the street more than an active shooter.

And in most countries, they do.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:06PM (#32171478)
School children don't cross roads inside classrooms.

There's enough concern to go around to work at improving both.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:36AM (#32163763)
"My child died but I can take comfort in the fact that his death was a statistical anomaly!"
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by akomtu on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:50AM (#32162752)
It's true, though. If you were to live many lives in a row, when would be your first time getting shot? "News" agencies are great at distracting attention from real issues: cancer, chemicals contamination, healthcare prices.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by ricardobayes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:43AM (#32163415)
That's very true. There's an unprecedented amount of distorted news too. I never believed it until I got a worried message from a friend about wildfires in our area. There are none. I had also read an article in my local news about devastating wildfires in his area, of which there are also none at his place. These were both generally well-respected mainstream media outlets. That's not saying we shouldn't focus on climate change ASAP, but it looks to me as the news broadcasts have an agenda to keep people in fear.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by rtp4me on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:21AM (#32164141)
Exactly. As I tell my son, the news organizations are no different than other vendors. They have a product to sell (fear, societal divide) and do their very best to continue selling it to the masses. And, astonishingly, people eat it up day and night.

For the people who live outside the US and consume our "news", it must seem our country is falling apart. From gun violence, to wildfires, to racism, to homelessness, we truly must be living in a 3rd world country. However, my experience does not reflect any of this. Yes, these issues exist, but everyday I can go to the grocery store, put gas in my wife's car, walk downtown, take a trip to the lake, visit a neighboring town, etc - all without fear. People of differing backgrounds/colors talk pleasantly with each other, neighbors help neighbors, etc. Totally different from what the "media" is pushing these days.

My advice - walk/run away from the media and don't attach yourself to any political party. Your emotional state will thank you later.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by fleetwoodsnack on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:22AM (#32163678)
If the statistical relevance fails to capture the underlying practical relevance of a phenomenon, it’s usually the job of the statistician to explain why.

One way is examining the dimensions of analysis. A simple counting exercise and declaring “well it’s just not relevant,” despite contradictory qualitative evidence is really simple-minded and an abuse of statistical reasoning.

But this is typical of non-research thinking, in non-academic contexts so forgive me if I come off harshly.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by akomtu on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:50PM (#32170425)
No such thing as "practical relevance". It doesn't matter that sharks or bears look scary: hard stats say that both dangers are imaginary. Same for guns.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by fleetwoodsnack on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:21PM (#32174657)
“Practical relevance” (funny use of quotes here) is the end-goal of statistics, and what makes it worth studying in the first place. On its own, the practice and theory of statistics is actually fairly vulnerable, not exactly “hard” in the sense we’d use for conventional mathematics.

The principles we use for relevance, and other techniques we’ve built upon them are axiomatic: there’s no real reason they persist except as a form of historical convention and necessary standardization.

What makes statistics useful is when it’s able to capture quantitatively something that exists practically, i.e. material phenomena. When the stats don’t square with reality, it’s not exactly reality’s fault, so to speak. It’s the statistician’s job to understand and explain why the statistics, or the techniques thereof, failed. This is the red meat of “hard” statistics, how the field refines itself, and it’s also the most fun and challenging thing about it.

When eye-to-eye with a provoked bear in real life, I’d be curious to see if any statisticians would dismiss it on statistical grounds. My bet is zero because they know the limits of their discipline.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by akomtu on Friday July 29, 2022 @03:51AM (#32274186)
It captures the reality very well. Emotions don't increase the likelihood of meeting a bear.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Beldin on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:42AM (#32163811)
> If you were to live many lives in a row, when would be your first time getting shot?

Statistically: that time I lived in the US.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by chung8123 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:02PM (#32167693)
For children it is diet. I bet that our children's diets kill more than guns.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by bearmode on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:29AM (#32163332)
>Outside of that I think the bulk of gun violence is suicides and gang on gang violence.

Good job those gang bullets aren't allowed to hit anything other than gang members!

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by throwaheyy on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:52AM (#32167513)
No, school shootings are like a weekly event in the US. They are not “exceedingly rare”.

Do you seriously think the traveling public would accept a plane crashing every week?

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by mbg721 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:59AM (#32163945)
There's someplace where the chances are exactly zero?

The fact that schools have active shooter drills says more about the disclaim-all-liability culture of schools here than it does about gun violence. The more pervasive gun violence problem is outside of schools, and is more a result of a systemic collapse of order in inner cities. The lone-wolf school shooters just make better headlines.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by makomk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:16AM (#32166963)
There is no such place. American gun control advocates like to point to the UK, where we completely banned (certain kinds of) gun after a major school shooting and haven't had any since, but there's been enough near-misses where some kid got to the point where they could have shot up their school if not for rethinking at the last minute that even here the chance of one happening is obviously still above zero.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by watwut on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:38AM (#32164887)
But like, I would expect similar headlines from all around the world had this been true. Meanwhile, the one place you see these news from extraordinary often is America. (Second runner are former ISIS territories where they terrorist attract girls schools occasionally.)
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by riffraff on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:15AM (#32164633)
There's a Twitter thread discussing the outcome of the police investigation after the Uvalde shooting, which discusses how teachers should have known better than to leave door opens, as that clearly complicates defending against school shooters.

From a European point of view it's incomprehensible how that is even a thing.

Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by UberFly on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:01AM (#32162435)
Yea but nobody wants to work anymore.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by polypodiopsi on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:43PM (#32170349)
Hahahaha
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by raxxorraxor on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:42AM (#32165669)
Or that they need security in the first place... Lacking its own will for some reason I fear we will see similar developments in Europe soon. But even that is not a pressing issue, it is an issue that draws attention and is use for political jousting.
Re:A brief history of nobody wants to work anymore by Supermancho on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @10:26AM (#32166226)
> The fact that there is a non-zero chance your kid might be shot at school is completely absurd.

This is an ironic demonstration of why larger problems in the US are not addressed. Someone always starts off talking about an issue then "think of the children" rears it's head. Do you believe there's a benefit from the whataboutism when "think of the population" is far more important? The larger societal issues are more likely issues on which there is plenty of low hanging fruit, versus this hand-wringing about children which will not promote any short-term improvements.

To quote Daryl Zero: Now, a few words on looking for things. When you go looking for something specific, your chances of finding it are very bad. Because of all the things in the world, you're only looking for one of them. When you go looking for anything at all, your chances of finding it are very good. Because of all the things in the world, you're sure to find some of them.