How many species are basically the same if you completely ignore differences in size, texture, color, and behavior? If you squint right, we're just apes in suits. It's almost like all those small differences add up to an outsize impact.

How many species are the same if you just ignore the qualities that distinguish them?

Any two entities are the same, if you define equivalence in such a way that it ignores all their differences.

"ABC" and "Abc" are the same, if we ignore case, and so it goes.

You can't fix it with absolute equivalence, because absolute equivalence requires that some entity A is only equal to that same entity A, and no other entity; that is then inapplicable if we want to use equivalences for division into classes that have more than one member.

Cats also look very weird if you drench them in water. Much more rat-like. Same with owls, bears, etc.

I recommend looking up hairless bear too.

Yep, edit snipped me, I added that after posting comment.

Sphinx cats are the ugliest things in the world.

we are apes in clothes, no need to squint!

Granted, I suppose "orangutans in suits" would have made for a more accurately-inaccurate analogy. Though perhaps to drive it home further, if you squint, orangutans are just fuzzier people who don't reproduce uncontrollably and spread environmental disasters so much.

It's a little disconcerting just how chimpanzee-like some human beings look.

I often wonder how anyone could dispute out origin when you look at a chimpanzee then look at a human. The similarities are incredibly striking.

Pic of hairless chimp for reference

https://images.app.goo.gl/xCSGHmTFuKmp65sK7

I legitimately thought you had linked me a picture of Bert Kreischer.

I have both in my neighborhood. Squirrels live in the trees, prance around my yard, are very passive and bury nuts. The rats live in the trash heap that my shut-in neighbor keeps in her garage and property, carry disease and are quite aggressive. They may be similar in biology but not in behavior or diet.

They also seem to enjoy just stashing nuts in out of the way places instead of burying them.

Here's a Douglas squirrel adding to a stash she had in my garage [1]. I've seen her adding to that particular stash at least a dozen times. Here's another one I've seen her add dozens of peanuts to [2].

I went to get a towel from a box of shop towels once and found a dozen peanuts. She went to add another one to that stash, but I was standing right next to it which caught her by surprise [3], so she instead added it to a little pile she kept on a nearby windowsill.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/LBXYRIUDT-C0OvwPtaqdgA....

[2] https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/lD9SWB1cQ4ycTT6CC7ZrgA....

[3] https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/jNo-VW4vQVaMUsBQmhyn0w....

My favorite story of squirrel shenanigans: Back home in Ontario, late one night, driving back from a friend's place I saw an SUV dropping sparks and flaming debris on the otherwise completely empty stretch of highway.

I flashed lights, waved, & honked enough for the driver to pull over. I tell him what I saw coming out from under his car and there was a distinct burning smell we could both smell even just being parked next to him. He pops the hood to see if there's a fire and sees a bit of smoke and I would guess about three hundred or more pine cones, chestnuts, and acorns rammed into every available space under his hood.

We both had a good laugh, and I wished him luck and went on my way.

Squirrels don't break into your home in the middle of the night and trash your stuff. That's why I don't mind squirrels and despise rats. Maybe it's that squirrels don't have the ability to squeeze through tiny little holes in foundations and so forth that makes them better neighbors.

Yes, they absolutely do.

The leave pretty big divots in the yard, but as long as they stay out of the attic, I don't mind much. A squirrel's tail does look like a rat's if it has the sun behind it.

But if they do get in the attic it's a nightmare. I would take 100 mice over one squirrel.

I would take a hundred squirrel over one raccoon.

If you made me choose between having a raccoon or a bear in my attic, I might choose the bear.

There was the time that a raccoon tried to dig into the attic to get at a nest of baby squirrels over by the soffit. He never quite succeeded.

I'm not sure if you are saying rats leave divots? The squirrels around here live in the ground and make huge holes. I don't really see many rats.

The squirrels leave divots. The rats, if they are around, will have burrows.

Squirrels don't always bury nuts. They will drop them into a convenient narrow opening. You may be able to exploit this behavior if you have, say, a walnut tree. Drive a vertical pipe into the ground, let the squirrels drop their nuts into it, then take the pipe and the nuts. You effectively have gotten the squirrels to harvest the nuts for you (with some inefficiency).

On the other hand... squirrels can also carry disease. Around here it is not unknown for them to carry bubonic plague.

At my old house we had a family of squirrels that lived in the trees at the back which I would feed. One night I looked out the window and I saw a rat eating the nuts I had left out for the squirrels earlier. The rat somehow climbed up the fence and managed to get onto the squirrel feeder. After I saw this I brought a new feeder so that the squirrels had to jump to the nuts which meant the rat couldn't get to the nuts anymore, but then my girlfriend asked why I care more about squirrels than the rat and she had a point because the rat wasn't doing us no harm. It wasn't getting into the house or getting into our bins or anything like that. It was just eating the left over nuts in the evening.

I'm an animal lover so it weighed on my conscience for a while, but I think there probably is a difference between the two. I was happy to feed the squirrels because I knew they wouldn't get into the house or damage my property. On the other hand a rat investigation can be a nightmare. Rats are cool creatures, but there's a reason people don't like them.

squirrels will definitely get in the house and damage property if given the chance.

We just found this out last week! The squirrels ruined our swing cushion on the porch. We were totally confused when we saw the torn cushion but later my wife saw a squirrel picking out the cushion fiber and carrying it to the tree.

Especially flying squirrels. Screen your gable vents!

The squirrels eat eggs and young birds. This is harder for the rats.

Rat nests are better protected against predators because they are underground.

Both will feed off of accessible food. Do not spill food and keep it in sturdy containers to avoid infestation.

Rats can jump. I stored some dog food in my garage and didn't think they could reach it, but they were able to jump across a sizable gap between shelves.

> investigation

Infestation?

I wish someone would investigate these squirrels and interrogate them under oath. Get them on the record and not let them weasel out of telling the truth.

Rat investigation reminds me of that one Love, Death + Robots episode. Very industrious little guys.

Admit it, The Atlantic is just a dumbed down The New Yorker.

It has been already admitted that the Atlantic is a questionable news source.

Obviously they are just as hungry as rats for your clicks onto their ads so they can continue to write up more nonsense like this article. Perhaps there's not enough rats subscribing to the Atlantic today?

So it doesn't surprise me to see the comments to this article here and that Atlantic is now turning their attention to doing hit-pieces on squirrels? Oh dear.

It really is garbage in, garbage out, for all the rats to read it and give them ad money if you are not paying. No wonder that article is free; and many others.

You mean, this New Yorker? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32044754

I completely and categorically disagree. The New Yorker has derailed on many fronts. It has become an ideological hell hole. If you have access to a public library, you can browse pre-2000's New Yorker on archive.org which was a totally different publication all together.

They are very similar publications, but I'm not sure which one is "dumbed down" relative to the other. Instead, there is a lot of variation within each magazine. Some articles are brilliant examples of "long form" journalism which sometimes later get expanded into entire books, others are puff pieces, and yet others (like this article) are somewhere in between.

As someone that dated an Atlantic contributor (as well as her being the senior editor over at The Walrus, Canada's answer to The New Yorker) I can very clearly give you an answer here:

The Atlantic is great, but it is in no league with The New Yorker. I wouldn't have called it "dumbed down" but it's still not as sharp and that is ok. The world appreciates both.

Yeah the Atlantic has clearer writing.

The New Yorker has 'better' writing, but I can't stand it.

They’re like every other media outlet; trying to trigger people into having an opinion that does not matter, because the public having opinions that matter would mean a low effort blogger has to get a job.

Squirrels are really smart. I once tried to chase one away from a tree using a fishing rod, but it just moved to a distance an inch longer than where the rod could reach and stayed put, just keeping an eye on me while I was there.

They are known to spy on each other and to steal each other's "investments." (Also, if one notices that another is watching, it will pretend like it's hiding the food here and then take it someplace else.)

Probably sat there waving its tail. That seems to be what taunting squirrels do...

I totally hate (grey) squirrels. The damage they do to my garden is turning me into Mr McGregor. Just today I removed multiple discarded peanut shells from a bed I was preparing. (Perhaps I just hate the humans who feed them these.)

They've dug holes in my lawn, killed a sapling by digging into its pot. And they are so tame you have to chase them off from close quarters.

I've had a bit of luck with using a homemade 'mace' spray on my plants to keep them away. A high concentration of peppermint oil and capsaicin emulsified as a very light gel using xanthan gum. I end up having to apply it every other day to be effective, but I have seen it turn away squirrels with my own eyes.

The other thing I've done is set out a small water bowl and another bowl with some pumpkin seeds for them. Given the presence of my homemade mace, they usually choose to just forage in the 'safe' seeds and water and leave my plants alone.

But if they ever lose that distaste, the next option will be nuclear.

They pulled down and chewed on every one of the corn plants I grew a couple of years ago. They didn't eat them all, just seemed intent on maximum carnage.

Grey squirrels are invasive where I am, but hunting them is unfortunately legally dubious at best.

adopt a rescue dog? game on!

JavaScript is just C without pointers

I see no controversy here, but I like both animals and have had pet rats.

Yes, they have many similarities. Both are rodents.

Rats are fine by me as well and I also had a number of them as pets over the years. That said, the rats in San Fran that I saw a couple of years ago when visiting were HUGE and I was not a fan.

I suspect some of the fear of rats is that they generally give off the vibe of "I'll bite you if you get close" vs. the skittishness of squirrels who will scurry off up a tree if you even try to approach.

Bushy tail.

That's 99% of it.

We can talk about behaviour, or aggression, or disease, but i think even if rats acted like squirrels in every way, but still didn't have the bushy tail, we'd prefer squirrels.

Squirrels are annoying as hell and anyone who loves them has never tried to garden.

Rats indeed.

On the other hand, survival youtubers discuss how they are delicious and don't taste like rat at all.

Growing up on a farm we were constantly shooting squirrels out of fruit trees and off of bird feeders. It was amazing to me how they were barely concerned with gunfire and not at all bothered by the dead bodies of other squirrels. There were a few days I probably shot 5-6 of them all in the same place in the span of just a few hours.

Can't grow pumpkins around here anymore, since the furry tailed tree rats discovered that pumpkins are full of pumpkin seeds. Ever since that year, every pumpkin big enough to bore three inch hole into has had a three inch hole bored into it and its insides removed. From there they decided to test the nearby winter squash and will mostly destroy that, too. Not a fan of squirrels anymore.

The Huntress shared her squirrel melt sandwich recipe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqo_GbzCjmg#squirrelmelts https://www.google.com/search?q=huntress+squirrel+melts

That show is creepy for reasons unrelated to squirrels.

Its incredibly annoying that in CA they are not considered pests if they're destroying your garden. Your home, sure, but your garden that you might still have spent hundreds of dollars and immeasurable amounts of time are 'fair game'. You're not even allowed to trap them to release elsewhere.

Gardening and still loving squirrels... though the red European much less rat-like-looking cute ones, not your nasty gray haters!!

The biggest annoyance are racoons here, still loving them.. rats, especially fat ones, ugh.. but they also just want to survive :)

The red ones are haters too.

Good for squirrels, then? Rats are really cool animals!

I know, right?

We seem to be the minority though. I know multiple people in real life who have an absurdly irrational reaction to rats. They react to merely seeing a rat or mouse scurrying around the way you might if you suddenly felt a tarantula crawling up your neck. Interestingly my wife is one of them, and my daughter once thought mice and rats were cute (I agree!) until she saw mom freak out, and now she's just as jumpy. Makes me wonder if this response is in-built or learned behavior.

I've had mice, squirrels and raccoons in the house. The raccoon had made a little nest in an attic space and gave birth to three kits. It was cold, so I didn't want to evict them, so I let them stay and I put up a camera recording on slo-mo on a VCR. I learned a lot about raccoons. The mother raccoon is a very very caring and devoted mother. She also keeps the nest completely clean. She always left and went outside to do her business. She removed all her kits wastes as well. Eventually, when it got much warmer and she started to chew the batten boards, I did evict her humanely. She had done very little damage to the house and no mess. I was probably lucky to get a good one.

I had a squirrel fall down the fireplace chimney and roam the house while we were on vacation. My friend checking on the house discovered her after she'd been trapped inside for a couple of days. Squirrels poop everywhere they go, so I could tell everywhere she went. She explored the whole house, but spent the most time looking out the ground floor windows. The fireplace ashes on her hands revealed things she touched. There were black marks all over the window cranks, but few marks on the window sashes. It looked like she had tried to operate the window cranks. I appeared she understood that if she could move them the right way, she could open a window and get out, but she had been unable to move them. She found a bit of peanut butter to eat, and she shredded our curtains. Apart from that she did very little damage and the mess was limited. The poops are pretty dry, and she only peed in a couple of specific locations, not everywhere. I did a cleanup before my wife returned home, and as I cleaned up, the things I observed caused me to develop a lot of empathy for the trapped and frustrated creature, who didn't want to be there. As for the mouse, that was an experience I doubt most of you would believe.

Squirrels around here are super annoying. They love to play dodge wheel. I hate it because I don't want puncture a tire because of one of those little shits.

Edit: Relevant - http://toddmitchellbooks.com/twelve-things-about-squirrels-t...

The migration part is interesting:

> Squirrels in North America used to migrate in massive numbers, following cycles of bountiful acorn harvests. When settlers first arrived in this country, they reported squirrels being so thick in the trees above during a migration that they nearly blocked out the sun. The best part — squirrels could do most of the journey from the East coast to Indiana without touching the ground.

> But as settlers started to clear the old growth oak forests, the great squirrel migrations became fragmented. Where squirrels had to cross fields, they were killed by coyotes, foxes, and other predators, including people who reported killing hundreds of squirrels (and getting three pennies a pelt). The last great squirrel migration was in 1968 in Wisconsin, when hundreds of thousands of squirrels were seen migrating (and dying on the highway and in lakes). One fisherman reported a wave of squirrels swimming toward his boat and nearly sinking it as they ran over him. Since then, this mass migration behavior has gone extinct.*

That makes me sad :(

I wonder if the right wildlife corridors were setup would the migration patterns resume? Or is this part of squirrel culture and once eradicated is gone?

The right wildlife corridors would need to include the American Chestnut, which was their primary food.

I get sad walking through the redwoods and seeing clumps of maybe 7 trees in a circle.

Invariably in the center of the circle is a tree stump of a GIANT old-growth redwood that existed before the forest was clear-cut.

And shrimp are just sea cockroaches.

But people keep eating them in this multiverse.

At least they are not eating spiders like in the previous one.

> At least they are not eating spiders like in the previous one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_spider

Let's not forget lobsters are just giant underwater bugs

I cannot remember who should get credit for this: rats=bad hair day in sewers and run down buildings versus squirrels=good hair day in the parks and trees, and the squirrels hired a very good public relations firm. See how much of a difference that makes?

    > The scientific name of the American red squirrel, Tamiasciurus hudsonicus, translates to “the steward who sits in the shadow of his tail.”

Tamiasciurus hudsonicus means "hoarding squirrel from the Hudson."

Thanks for the full translation. I don't know much Latin but even I could tell that the 'translation' in the article was most likely complete bunk.

it's an interesting premise - how to explain our irrational categorisation of animals as tolerated vs not tolerated. I believe it is in the main due to the animals attitude to us.

here's my sketch framework

1. Pets - vassalized companions who accept human hegemony

2. Prey - harmless food, too dumb to realise what we have in store for them

3. Predators - resistant to human hegemony, dangerous competitors which need to be contained

4. Pests - resistant to human hegemony, not direct competitors but more invidiously have figured out a way to uniquely exploit the system we have set up exclusively for human benefit. To be exterminated

I suspect if folks give an animal a name, then it is more or less off-limits to humans.

indeed, that may be the moment when we move an animal into 'pet' category. This is why I never name my animals, I prefer to have options

Cats are predators who accept our offerings of food and petting.

they are also edible, so prey item in some cultures also. Truth is you can move animals across these boundaries but it does feel unethical. Rabbits good example - clearly widely eaten, yet once a pet, could you turn it into food? You'd be a wrong 'un if you did!

Surely cats are the least eaten domesticated animal, especially per catpita.

yes, they may well be pests in disguise as pets, playing 4d chess on us - you have to respect it

You forgot "Victims - Incompatibility with human hegemony can be used to sell calendars"

I haven't yet had a squirrel crawl into my car, hide berries everywhere, eat the firewall insulation, chew other rubber parts and wires, or build a nest in the glove box.

I also haven't yet had a squirrel carry dog poop onto my deck, thinking its a great way to build a nest under the deck.

I haven't yet had to clean squirrel poop while thinking about how much fun it would be to catch the hantavirus while the healthcare system is overloaded with covid.

If a squirrel decides to partake in these activities, I will also start treating them like rats.

Near the place that I live squirrels are vital to the ecosystem. Basically they can't remember the location of all the seed that they buried and forgotten seeds become trees :)

Indeed, which is why trees bother with the expense of making nuts.

I've often wondered along similar lines, and my explanation was always related to what's mentioned in the article as well: the Black Death killed around two thirds of the European population, without rats being identified as the main source of the disease. So today's Europeans (and Americans with European ancestry) have a high probability of being ancestors of people who, for whatever odd reason, had an intrinsic aversion to rats.

This doesn't affect your evolutionary argument, but rats didn't spread the Black Death. Human lice was the carrier. We've only recently confirmed this previously minority theory through genetic evidence, but it always fit the data better. Goes to show that there is some sort of deeply held aversion to rats such that people were more willing to believe that explanation.

I don't understand it. I think mice and rats are cute :\

Interesting, do you have a reference? I'd say it affects my theory a lot, haha

I learned about it on a BBC documentary about the Black Death I saw a few years back. I'm about to run out the door so I haven't the time to properly figure out which one and see what paper they were citing. But I remember it was a French university that did the genetic tests, IIRC.

The data which fit that theory better came from London and some city in Scotland (Glasgow? I'm not sure.) Basically there were houses which shared gardens (where rats would live) but the disease didn't spread between the two houses. Likewise in London there was a poor district that got hit hard, and a rich district next door that saw very few infections. Due to the way the sewers were laid out, the rat population was the same between the two. But the lice wouldn't have transferred without close contact, which of course rarely happened between rich and poor.

The more damning evidence was out of Scotland where the doctor making a very detailed study showed that the disease only transferred between people who shared close living quarters. And in particular, during a lockdown with all-day curfew it didn't transmit at all. But where beds were reused, the new inhabitants got sick.

But the genetic evidence sealed the deal. I'll have to look up that French study later.

A paper on the modeling which shows that Black Death was probably spread by lice, not rats:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1715640115

And a news article presenting an interesting overview about various research on the causative agent for Black Death, including genetic studies:

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44489863

I couldn't find any genetic studies showing that lice was the vector for spread, so maybe I was misremembering or conflating the two points.

In the 90s there was a great sitcom called Spin City with Michael J. Fox and subsequently Charlie Sheen. The best line about this topic I've ever heard was on that show, "Squirrels are just rats with good PR". I wonder how well that show holds up, doesn't seem like you can stream it anywhere other than Pluto which I don't have - maybe I'll get yet another streaming service...

If I remember correctly, in today's cancel culture, the show's jokes would make it get out of the air rather quickly.

It's my favorite sitcom of the 90s. The jokes are witty and have punches to them, and the show doesn't try to pretend its social observations are philosophically deep.

Definitely

The squirrels are working for the pigeons. Spies, every last one. Those pigeons, they're the masterminds. They'll sell you to the highest bidder, and you'll never see your family again. Just keep a low profile, and maybe you won't become a target.

Squirrels are a pain just as rats are but in another way. They're all around the apartments I live in and constantly get into our plants and destroy them. I spray cayenne pepper and other deterrents once in a while but they don't always work unless you keep at it multiple times a day.

No, it's not PR operation, and no, Sarah Jessica Parker does not have anything of interest to to say about the matter.

Squirrels are obviously very different from, and much smarter than rats. Their appearance and grooming are a reflection of this deeper fact, not simply a gimmick or an accident.

What a silly article.

Rats are social animals and much smarter than most of rodents (including squirrels). Trust me, my mother was behavioral biologist, and she experimented with both rats (black rats, Rattus rattus) and red (European) squirrels (Sciurus vulgaris).

I'll have to take the subject up with your mom, then. On the surface, at least, almost everything that squirrels do (from their manual dexterity to their nest building and food storage) suggests that they operate on a higher plane than rats.

Typical old-skool behavioral test, like maze solving, button mashing (with food reinforcement), and alike, are much better passed by rats.

Maybe, it is wrong tests, there are some discussion in this field how we (humans) should asset animal intelligence.

Reminds me of that old car commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppLHHuqZ3F4

Possibly unpopular fact: lots of people hunt and eat squirrels. So this is another way we define differences between otherwise similar animals: one is food, and the other is not.

Rats are known to carry disease.

But squirrels do, too, especially in the warm months. And never eat the brains!

Unless they're red [1]

1. https://greysquirrelcontrol.co.uk/

They eat all of our pears before they're ready-- and before we even get a chance to get them. Very selfish.

There’s a great scene in “The Inglorious Bastards” about this.

Just like shrimps are sea cockroaches.

... and pigeons are just air rats :P

Japan already figured that out

木鼠 (ki-nezumi) squirrel

木 tree 鼠 rat

Like hamsters?

And ...?