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Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mabbo on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:03PM (#31755931)
My wife grew up very close to the poverty line, with her parents always just about to lose the house. And she has this anxiety. (Edit: to be clear, she's a successful civil engineer, considered one of the best in her field locally and makes great money- she has nothing to worry about.)

In order to help with it, we have a bank account that our bills come out of that has a little more than 6 months worth of all our bills (mortgage payment included) just sitting there, collecting zero interest. Every time a bill is paid, we top it up to the target amount. If we stop making money today, we don't have to do anything differently for 6 months.

It's not logical or financially wise, but it means that she doesn't worry about money as much. I consider the opportunity cost on the interest we might collect on that money as a bill that I'm happy to pay.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by bombcar on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:09PM (#31756032)
People vastly underestimate the "peace of mind" costs - once those are taken into effect it can suddenly make sense to do things that many consider "financially unwise", such as having a large emergency fund, paying off a mortgage, etc.

And once you do that you can find yourself suddenly feeling much more free - knowing that even if everything goes south room and board is taken care of can give you the courage to take risks you'd not otherwise take, such as starting a business, a family, even moving.

The main thing about "living paycheck to paycheck" that scares me is that feeling of being trapped.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Gamemaster1379 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:26PM (#31756269)
> It's not logical or financially wise I'm taken aback by this statement. I am in an incredibly similar situation to your wife in terms of growing up and being successful today, and I do this. Granted, I think I'm at 3.5 months, but the point stands.

Sure, the money isn't generating more wealth, but that amount is finite. It's a cushion that should effectively indefinitely and every dollar beyond is vigorously invested. And, should something happen to employment, you use it as a buffer (assuming no severance) and replenish as soon as you're employed again.

I have a friend who helped me get where I am. He makes even more than I do, but financially, I'm more well off than he is because he thinks that every single dollar needs invested -- to the point that despite making the top 2-3% of income for our entire region, he regularly is paying off revolving credit card interest because he isn't equipped to pay a $500 unexpected expense.

Sure, if you invest every single dollar, it's always earning 7-10% on average. But if you have to then pay 20%+ APR on credit cards because you can't handle unexpected expenses, it begs the question whether you're really getting ahead.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by yunwal on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:51PM (#31756633)
Stocks are liquid enough that you can sell enough to pay your credit card off before getting hit with interest. There's no reason to have 6 months worth of expenses in cash just sitting around unless you strongly suspect a crash.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mcguire on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @02:07PM (#31756874)
The S&P 500 is down 21% since the beginning of the year.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by refurb on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:06PM (#31761451)
But still up 40% from the post-Covid low.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by fallingfrog on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:58PM (#31783462)
For now
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by astrange on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @04:00PM (#31758648)
Muni bond and treasury ETFs are not down 21%, and neither is my emergency fund investment account.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by pishpash on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:23PM (#31759631)
Broad munis and intermediate treasuries are both down 10% YTD, and so are TIPS (though at least those have had inflation adjustments). You might want to check your "emergency fund investment account" lol...
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by astrange on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @07:14PM (#31760647)
It’s on target still. Less margin than usual, but the gains from the last 10 years have made up for that.

Betterment recommends 30% margin: https://www.betterment.com/resources/funding-a-safety-net-ca...

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by pishpash on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @07:32PM (#31760778)
Gains from the past isn't so much the point, but rather when you may need to liquidate. An emergency fund is typically needed at the worst possible time, when the economy isn't good and investments are deflated. That's the liquidity risk you take with anything but cash.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mcguire on Thursday June 16, 2022 @12:50PM (#31768244)
"Stocks are liquid enough..."

Neither of those are stocks.

Bonds are (usually) less volatile than stocks, but yeah, be careful about using them for short-term emergency funds.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by astrange on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:26PM (#31771767)
Bond ETFs are equally as liquid as stocks.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Damogran6 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:51PM (#31760442)
And will be back up in less than 18 months.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by fallingfrog on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:59PM (#31783478)
Hope springs eternal, but stimulus from the fed does not.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mabbo on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:48PM (#31758454)
That sounds like a lot of work, with added risks.

With our system, our bills get paid with the money we have, and then when we make more money, it just goes back to the buffer account. Overflow goes into investing.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by maxerickson on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:23PM (#31759639)
It's not something you need to justify to other people!
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by pishpash on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:25PM (#31759658)
Stocks are the definition of not liquid, in that their implied duration is 10+ years at least. How many fools are using stocks as an emergency fund during a tightening cycle that's removing liquidity at the fastest pace since the 1980's?
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ticviking on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:28PM (#31756291)
Having a solid emergency fund is actually pretty wise. Maybe split some of that into something low risk like I-bonds. My wife has similar anxiety, and it took years of financial education to get her comfortable with the idea that we only need a month of backup, and can float the rest on CC until we liquidate other assets.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by nomel on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:40PM (#31758317)
> we only need a month of backup

As someone who went through two recessions, survived multiple layoffs, and had a few medical things, this seems like crazy talk. The general rule of thumb is 6 months of savings. I've known many that didn't follow this rule, and ended up in very bad debt.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by cableshaft on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:59PM (#31758625)
Do you need it all sitting in a savings account, though? Inflation ate almost 9% of its value this past year. Granted stocks are down 20% this year, but assuming you don't have to touch it for a while, they should more than recover in a few years (well, assuming no massive global disaster, which seem more and more common lately).

We have a decent amount sitting in our savings account, but not six months worth. But I can liquidate assets to get us the rest of that six months if necessary, and it would take about a week to get that into our bank account.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by blindmute on Friday June 17, 2022 @10:05AM (#31778360)
If you need six months of expenses, you likely got laid off, which means your stocks are likely tanking as well, and it takes longer to get a new job. A cash or bonds emergency fund is perfectly logical. Six months isn't even that much money; in a normal 2% inflation year, that means you're losing less than 0.01% of the amount each month to inflation. The peace of mind is worth that, isn't it?

Personally I have 2 years in cash because I like to take 6+ month sabbaticals between jobs, but even that is a negligible amount due to my expense/income ratio.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by happyopossum on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @04:50PM (#31759306)
> Inflation ate almost 9% of its value this past year. Granted stocks are down 20% this year,

yeah, so you're still ahead of the game if you had it saved.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by cableshaft on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:58PM (#31759973)
This year. Meanwhile it would have missed out on 27% in gains the previous year (and its associated dividends), if I kept it in a bank account.

Also that 20% loss will most likely recover in time. Inflation almost never reverses itself, it only slows down.

There's a reason rich people park most of their money in assets, and not in savings accounts. If they got more returns by keeping it in savings accounts, they would do that.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by happyopossum on Thursday June 16, 2022 @01:39PM (#31768807)
> rich people park most of their money in assets

6 months of basic living expenses isn't "most of their money" for rich people. Ideally it wouldn't be for the rest of us either.

You seem to be thinking I'm against investing altogether - I'm not, but there is a significant risk avoidance in having an emergency fund that is 100% liquid and not tied to market risks.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by infinite8s on Thursday June 16, 2022 @10:44AM (#31766641)
But you will be liquidating your assets at the worst possible time (assuming the cause for needing to dip into your emergency fund is more systematic than being individually fired and not being able to find another job).
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by chiph on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:27PM (#31761574)
A cautionary tale for you - I burned through 8 months of savings in the 2008 crisis. While the I-Bond isn't subject to market fluctuations, I am glad that my emergency fund was in cash/CDs and not invested. Because it would have lost 40% of it's value just when I needed it the most.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by throwawayarnty on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:57PM (#31756730)
How is this not logical or financially wise ?

It is common advice to have an emergency fund equal to several months of expenses in cash.

What is the alternative ? Having no emergency fund?

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by lmm on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:14PM (#31760112)
Several months is excessive. Even if you think you might going to spend six months with no income, you don't need six months' expenses in cash - one month's worth in instant access savings (or, sure, half in savings and half in cash under the matress, just in case), two months' in one months' notice savings, and three months' worth in three months' notice savings works just as well and will get you a better return.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by throwawayarnty on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:42PM (#31761670)
To think one would ever have three months savings in cash sounds insane to me.

In the USA unexpected expenses (beyond monthly savings) can completely wipe a three month savings in a heartbeat.

Add to that getting laid off during a recession and you’re in for real pain.

I guess it’s just been 12 years since people ever had to deal with a bad economy.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by evandijk70 on Thursday June 16, 2022 @04:11AM (#31763613)
What if your car suddenly breaks down and you have to replace it? Is the extra income of investing, let's say, 3 months of expenses really worth it?

Let's say you get 3% in an instant savings account, and 3.5% in a three months' notice savings account. If you never touch that money until your retirement in 30 years, that would give you 0.5 months worth of expenses extra interest.

Compare that to the hassle, extra work to keep track of several savings account, and the added risk in the unlikely event that you do need the money quicker (eg. A broken car, an unexpected medical emergency, whatever). Surely the trade-off must than tip in favor of simply having a bit bigger emergency fund?

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by lmm on Thursday June 16, 2022 @07:31PM (#31772271)
You could use that logic to say keep all your savings in cash all the time. What if your roof gets blown off and you suddenly need to replace it? What if your house burns down and you need to buy a new one? The relevant question to ask is when having an extra couple of months' expenses in instant access is going to make the marginal difference. IMO the window between "one months' expenses" and "six months' expenses" is pretty narrow, so it makes more sense to keep one month or so in cash or current account and then invest the rest at the best rates you can.

(e.g. I would say for most people a car probably costs more than three months' expenses, so having that much extra in instant access probably doesn't shift you from "can't buy a new car in cash" to "can buy a new car in cash". Realistically you're (hopefully) insured and you're quite likely to finance your replacement car.)

I've had an "instant access" savings account take 2 months to pay out my money - some kind of AML issue, supposedly. Conversely, a lot of "three months' notice" accounts aren't "you physically can't take money out with less than three months' notice" but rather "if you withdraw with less than three months' notice you sacrifice one year's interest" or similar. I don't find the "hassle of an extra account" to be significant when it's two accounts at the same bank under the same login, but if you do then I would seriously consider having only a notice-requiring savings account.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by aoeusnth1 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:50PM (#31759902)
Minimum buffer / maximizing investments in ETFs has higher EV and depending on your time horizon and model, may even be lower risk.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by throwawayarnty on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:52PM (#31761730)
This strategy essentially ensures that you will never have much capital ready for when stocks and other assets suddenly get cheap.

Your strategy means that the best time to buy assets correlates with when your net worth dips then lowest.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by aoeusnth1 on Monday June 20, 2022 @02:31PM (#31813847)
Do you try to time the market? Holding cash waiting for stocks to "get cheap" is a losing strategy unless you have some serious edge.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by happyopossum on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @04:49PM (#31759285)
> It's not logical or financially wise

It's absolutely both of those things. It's financially unwise to take any risks at all with your emergency funds and operating expenses, so having 3-6 months worth locked up is absolutely the best thing you can do.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by collinvandyck76 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:35PM (#31756386)
with the market being as it is, actually very wise to have a lot of cash on hand :) we also operate this way. i could become unemployed today and we buffer enough so that it's not an emergency at all.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Melatonic on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @02:42PM (#31757405)
I prefer a layered approach - some investments take longer than others to cash out. And some are in between but still provide some return. A ton of cash on hand is probably a bad idea
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by moffkalast on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:52PM (#31758512)
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/tou7v2/oc_...

Even Warren Buffet always keeps at least something like a fifth of his investments in cash. Otherwise how the hell are you going to buy low?

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by petronio on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:22PM (#31759629)
Should be noted that a significant portion of Berkshire Hathaway's usual cash pile is not for deal making, but as a backstop for their large insurance portfolio.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Melatonic on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:14PM (#31759562)
I would imagine though that he is also very often selling / buying so that hes not just sitting on a pile of cash for months at a time?
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by moffkalast on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:25PM (#31760213)
See reverse repos.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by dageshi on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @02:32PM (#31757241)
It's both logical and financially wise. Nothing is more valuable than time when you need it. That money will give you time when you need it.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by thebigspacefuck on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:36PM (#31756413)
I have a high yield savings account and interest is 0.75%, 6 withdrawals per month and the transfer completes same day if I need it in an emergency, plus it’s FDIC insured. Same peace of mind plus interest.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by abnercoimbre on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:47PM (#31756563)
You might be talking about AMEX Savings? I remember when it was 1.70% before the pandemic. That almost beat inflation!
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by thebigspacefuck on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @05:45PM (#31759846)
That’s the one. It looks like some others are offering 1%+ now.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by fdr on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:00PM (#31761404)
Six months is not unwise, in my view.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mmcnl on Thursday June 16, 2022 @02:39AM (#31763091)
Is 6 months a lot? I have my bills covered in a similar way for 24 months.