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Re:Apple Mac Studio by Tiktaalik on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:22PM (#30605011)
Seriously. If Apple supported gaming more I'd be able to drop this PC.

Could be the sort of thing that could cause an avalanche of switchers.

You'd also pull over the entire games industry into the Apple space. Right now we code on PCs. As Apple silicon gets better, it's gonna be more and more painful to not be able to make use of that.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by npunt on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:44PM (#30606612)
Not sure about game developers, but gamers are a low-margin, high-touch, low-satisfaction-score, garish-aesthetic, speeds-and-feeds market. Pretty much antithetical to Apple's core focus and I think they rightly avoid them. Despite personally wanting more games on Mac :)
Re:Apple Mac Studio by jdgoesmarching on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:17PM (#30607998)
Also I feel like everyone is missing their AR/VR push right around the corner. VR headsets with these chips will be dramatically more powerful than other devices on the market. Combine that power with Apple product marketing, and devs will be there regardless of how much the Metal APIs suck.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by makeitdouble on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:48PM (#30610379)
VR is happening on PC. Event the Quest2 has a PC link that expands its possibility many-fold, and you guessed it, it works only on PC.

Apple could come with its magic to take the field, but it’s been a while we saw them succeed in a market where a serious competitor is already expanding (voice assistants or the apple TV comes to mind). I’d love to be proven wrong, but won’t be holding my breath)

Re:Apple Mac Studio by nardi on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @03:56AM (#30612337)
There is no “serious competitor” in VR/AR, because there is no market yet. The number of devices sold is miniscule. When AR/VR actually takes off, it’s going to look very, very different from what we have today.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by chaostheory on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @01:12AM (#30611433)
Games on Apple will always be treated as 2nd class citizens. I don’t feel it will be any different on their new XR platform which is both good and bad because it’ll mean that we’ll have an XR device that the masses will finally accept if the price is right.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by mmis1000 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:28PM (#30610281)
Doesn't matter if apple didn't want any serious games on their mac platform. And it is for now afaik.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by outworlder on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:11PM (#30607910)
> low-margin

Really?

Have you missed the insane markups on anything 'gaming' related for many years?

Re:Apple Mac Studio by andrewmcwatters on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:39PM (#30608278)
Could you provide an example?
Re:Apple Mac Studio by melony on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:08PM (#30608599)
The AAA studios and titles filled with lootboxes and custom skins.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by smoldesu on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:30PM (#30608831)
Ah, like that Genshin Impact game Apple was using in their iPad Air demo earlier today. Good example!
Re:Apple Mac Studio by baud147258 on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:08AM (#30612436)
Compare any normal keyboard with 'gamer' models where the only difference is colored led...
Re:Apple Mac Studio by Hamuko on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @06:01AM (#30613201)
At this point in time, basically any GPU.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by ask_b123 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:07PM (#30608587)
What does high-touch market mean?
Re:Apple Mac Studio by npunt on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:53PM (#30609061)
Entitled, difficult, immature, higher return & damage rate, undervalues 'just works', etc.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by novok on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:59PM (#30610438)
It's because they skew towards being children more. Apple already has a large children market via the iPad. "Serious games" on daddy's macbook pro and their iPads & apple TVs would further that stronghold. Games are their biggest money maker on the app store as it is, a real serious gaming department with 100-200 employees will pay for itself multiple times over. Apple arcade is another example. Apple Game Studios with first party games like nintendo would probably do better than Apple TV+ does today. They're alllllmost there.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by radley on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:18PM (#30608709)
Want to be hands on and make customized modifications
Re:Apple Mac Studio by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:27PM (#30610275)
So, hobbyists and hackers.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:33PM (#30605300)
How's your internet connection? I'm playing on a RTX3080 thanks to geforce now, but I admit it's only possible due to my living in a big city with a very low ping connection to nvidias data centres.

But the economics make total sense. It's like 15/euro a month. A RTX 3080 would cost me like 1200 euro to buy at the moment, without the rest of the PC to go with it. And I'd need to run windows, which I've not done since '98.

Outsourcing hardware it seems, does work for gaming, if you've got the 'net for it, :}

Re:Apple Mac Studio by mrtksn on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:36PM (#30606486)
What I don't like about this model is that you are not allowed to run whatever you want, you can't even run all your library from Steam or Epic but select games only.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cercatrova on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:14PM (#30607960)
There are other services that allow you to run base windows from which you can run whatever you want.

https://shadow.tech/

Re:Apple Mac Studio by Agingcoder on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @03:03AM (#30612035)
Interestingly enough, a significant part of the limitations come from game publishers, not nvidia.

Not being allowed to play a game you legally bought on geforcenow is something I really don't understand.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by madeofpalk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:45PM (#30605564)
RTX3080 but you've got low bitrate mpeg artifacts. I've tried them, they're fine when its your only option.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:37PM (#30605389)
And cyberpunk 2077 or farcry 6 on full on ultra settings makes me almost want to cry it's so pretty. I'll walk past a puddle and just... walk back and forward. It feels like what your teenage overclock made crysis look look like in the early 2000's, I can recommend.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by jakear on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:52PM (#30605760)
As someone who hasn't really gamed since Crysis, looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5rYjHuZsM0, I have to say I feel.... not impressed at all? Maybe that video is a poor example, but the plants for instance look absolutely awful, especially up close.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by asiachick on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @04:43PM (#30607529)
Yea, here's Crysis and you're right IMO. At a glance I can't see much difference. I'm sure I could find them but they certainly don't stick out

https://youtu.be/KVmc2P2PPRw?t=841

Re:Apple Mac Studio by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @04:16PM (#30607096)
The core gameplay mechanics of Far Cry have not changed significantly since Crysis, either. (Okay, more accurately since Far Cry 3- released a decade ago- or so.)
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @07:56PM (#30609649)
Yeah, it's still somehow comforting to take down a base with just your compound bow ;)

I find it rather pretty, either way...

Re:Apple Mac Studio by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:21PM (#30610248)
As far as a mercenary safari goes, Far Cry 2 still rules supreme in my book with its minimalist UI and serious tone, and could really use a modern remaster.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by asabla on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:43PM (#30605528)
ha! are you me?

Had the benefit to purchase my self a beasty computer right before Cyberpunk launched.

I don't know how many times I just stopped what I was doing and just look at something shiny/bright.

Last time I felt this way must have been back with HL2

Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:41PM (#30606558)
Fortunately it's gotten better. I didn't play it much during the first months as it was such a terrible shitshow of bugs. Seems they're getting ontop of it now though. I feel deeply sorry for the devs that they made them release it in such a condition. We've all been there I guess!
Re:Apple Mac Studio by nr2x on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:42PM (#30608312)
100% this: cloud gaming tech is solid but the business model is still in infancy. By the time Apple caught up in gaming I expect cloud gaming will have taken root.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by JAlexoid on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:43PM (#30605532)
I'm in a rural area 1.5 hour north of NYC - I use GeForce Now and Stadia with 6ms latency. It's available to more than just the big cities.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:39PM (#30606531)
Okay, try that in rural Scotland ;)
Re:Apple Mac Studio by mlindner on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:04PM (#30609735)
Games as a service are just something I refuse to support. I want to own products not rent them.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by cyberpunk on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:12PM (#30609797)
I mean I kinda agree with you, but for 15 bucks a month is it really such a big deal? If the service went away tomorrow I wouldn't really care at all... I enjoy it, and it enables me to game on a level that would normally require thousands of euros of equipment, so .... Yeah, I don't care about gaming freedom it seems.. I still want OSS for my OS though ;)
Re:Apple Mac Studio by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:29PM (#30610289)
You do own them in GeForce Now, not sure in Stadia/Luna. You're renting the gaming PC, but you can install those Steam games on whatever machine you choose. Though perhaps Steam is the GAAS.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by jachee on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:28PM (#30605146)
> If Apple supported gaming more

You mean if gaming supported Apple more, right? The industry's reliance on DirectX and the frameworks that build on it are largely what keep gaming so PC-centric.

If we saw AAA studios embrace macOS-compatible (or better yet Open Source) graphics architecture, the need to have separate gaming PCs (and the insanely expensive GPUs associated therewith) would evaporate.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by l-p on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:42PM (#30605494)
> As of June 3, 2021, there is no native support for Vulkan API provided by Apple devices.

> Apple deprecated OpenGL in iOS 12 and macOS 10.14 Mojave in favor of Metal, but it is still available as of macOS 11 Big Sur (including Apple silicon devices). The latest version supported for OpenGL is 4.1 from 2011.

OSX accounts for 2.62% of Steam users.

Implementing another graphics backend is prohibitively expensive for small studios whereas you could implement either OpenGL or Vulkan and get the other 97.38%. And that's without factoring in the required investment in single-use hardware, people, and skills.

DirectX is another safe choice but I try to stay away from anything proprietary or Microsoft-related.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by aseipp on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:33PM (#30609978)
Not really. Small studios don't even bother writing their own rendering path most of the time; they're using alternative engines (Unity) or middleware (SDL, bgfx/libgdx/webgpu/whatever) to solve the problem entirely because they have better problems to actually slove.

Honestly the real issue is you probably wouldn't get many users or make a whole ton of money, really. Unless you target iOS or iPads, but that can add some significant constraints to the game. (But sometimes it's OK; Divinity Original Sin 2 basically works fine on an M1 Mac or an M1 iPad, as long as you have a Xbox controller to go with it.)

I think as programmers we desperately want to believe it's just a matter of programming and that we're in the critical path here, but it really isn't. Most of that stuff is a solved for a lot of cases. And if it was technological constraints, honestly, there's like a whole host of actual technological concerns, all of them really boring and crappy and not "cool" like rendering (like how do you CI and QA the damn thing, what kind of impacts might it have on your build system, do all the 3rd party things you have work here, etc.) Rendering is just "cool" to talk about but it's not actually as important as those; by the same token you never see giant threads on here about like OS-specific sound APIs or whatever...

There just aren't many Mac gamers and the hardware is kind of expensive to buy and test on for most purposes in that case.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by georgeecollins on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:55PM (#30605819)
>> You mean if gaming supported Apple more, right?

I can tell you from long experience-- more than 20 years ago I produced a Mac games with Apple's financing and as recently as five years ago I produced a game that sold over $100m on an Apple device-- Apple has been extremely consistent in their attitude. They are much less supportive of gaming then Microsoft or Sony. Part of it is that they see games as a lesser use of their devices over other use cases. Another part is that they consistently promote the kind of experiences they wish their customers wanted over the experiences their customers choose.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by MattSteelblade on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:47PM (#30605612)
It's Apple's refusal to support Vulkan that is it's biggest detriment to the gaming industry.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by mhh__ on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:54PM (#30606793)
Why would you spend a huge chunk of your R&D money supporting a platform with users who don't game built by a company that won't spend a tiny amount of their R&D budget supporting industry standard technology that's been established for years.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by asiachick on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @04:49PM (#30607592)
AFAIK Unreal and Unity but support Metal. It's a chicken and egg thing. There is no game market on MacOS because no gamers are on MacOS because there are no games on MacOS so there are no gamers on MacOS ....

Of course consumer level macs have never had GPUs that could run AAA games. I don't know what an M1 MacBook Air's perf is. If it's able to run AAA games and a reasonable framerate then maybe a market would build? But if you're limiting gamers to M1 Pro/M1 Max/M1 Ultra users only then it's probably a pretty small market?

Re:Apple Mac Studio by my123 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:39PM (#30608927)
The M1 MacBook Air is between the GTX 1050 and the 1060 GPU perf-wise. Not especially high but allows for a bunch of titles to run acceptably.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by minimaxir on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:35PM (#30605338)
Even games running on engines like Unity and UE4 that support macOS/Metal don't support macOS because the userbase size isn't worth the overhead.

It's a chicken and egg problem, although Apple Arcade is a good approach to try and bridge that gap.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by nightski on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:41PM (#30605488)
There is no chicken and egg. Apple has tens of billions of dollars. If they wanted to support games it could be done really quickly. They straight up are anti-gaming unless it is of the exploitative micro-transaction mobile kind where they can reap that store tax.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by smoldesu on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:49PM (#30608384)
Yeah, it's pretty sad to see them pimping the likes of Genshin Impact. Even among the people who do play and enjoy it, I've yet to meet anyone who will defend it as anything other than a Breath of the Wild ripoff with a slot machine-shaped tumor attached to it's hip.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by risho on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:56PM (#30605842)
if they would just support vulkan they could basically pick up directx for free off of the back of valve
Re:Apple Mac Studio by makeitdouble on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @09:56PM (#30610415)
Apple and the gaming industry is a long and complicated relationship, that is I think best surfaced by the Epic vs Apple trial.

Apple makes a huge part of its revenue from mobile gaming, while ferociously antagonizing the game makers and the main players of the industry (still remember their beef with Nvidia for instance) which makes it a bad bet to embrance Apple platform outside of the most dominant ones.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by ohgodplsno on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:38PM (#30605416)
Right, it's the studio's fault, not because Metal is a dogshit API with dogshit performance. And instead of paying 900$ for a RTX 3090, you could pay 4000 for something with the equivalent power of a 3060Ti that you can't upgrade without buying an entire new SoC.

But go on, blame directx for being the one API actually moving things forwards. Not Apple's shitty behavior.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by jachee on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:19PM (#30608027)
You got a source on $900 3090s?

I can't find 'em for under $2000.

Re:Apple Mac Studio by McRask on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @12:52PM (#30617732)
Is gaming bad on Mac? Honest question because I have no need for high end performance for gaming. If it can run Path of Exile well enough to burn an hour or two here and there, it would be enough.
Re:Apple Mac Studio by rnjesus on Thursday March 10, 2022 @07:08PM (#30634406)
gaming isn’t terrible on mac. i’ve recently played factorio, ai war 2, this war of mine, sayonara, the pathless, and some other random apple arcade and steam games without any issue on my 13” m1 mbp. i also played sniper elite 3 on it via stadia, and the experience was quite good.