Yes, there are almost always jobs with less strenuous requirements on time, fewer requirements and late nights. But the average tech worker has a pretty good gig. And if they don't they can go down the street in 2022 and get one.
Trades scratch a similar itch to development in some ways - you're working with a set of tools and generally always building or working on the same projects. Yes, it's tactile, it gets you something palpable in the end. Yes, like software development you get that dopamine hit when you've built something nice. But there are late nights, big jobs that go too long, crappy coworkers and clients, because ... it's a professional job.
Did this behavior start with the coda of Office Space or has it always been a thing?
Would you feel the same way about a plumber wishing for the job software developer? Would you call out a plumber for being condescending in wishing for the “easy” job of a software developer?
The more accurate interpretation is that all people have frustration with their job and start to imagine an alternative that would eliminate the frustrations.
I'm very confused by this because I'm arguing the exact opposite: that people in tech romanticize these "simple" trades of the people.
> Would you call out a plumber for being condescending in wishing for the “easy” job of a software developer?
Absolutely. If they treated it like something you can just step down into without putting in the work, which is precisely how it's positioned when devs daydream about it.
I live in a climate where normal (I.e. not extreme) temp fluctuates between -25C and +30C. You can add 5-10C to either end for the above/below average days. There is absolutely nothing romantic or glamorous about working outside in those temps. This “romanticism” you speak of, while very real, often comes from a place of ignorance and inexperience. I’ve done enough physical labour in my time in reasonable weather than I see no reason for me ever want to make a career out of it. Similar goes for interior work, I’ve done the “good” and “mediocre” jobs as DIY enough to know I would not want to do it for a living.
I am pointing this out because by understanding why people actually complain it will deepen empathy for the complaining person and also avoid creating a pseudo classist framing of the situation which is actually not only inaccurate but harmful for understanding the people involved.
You misinterpreted my original point and when I attempted to clarify you're now telling me what I'm "too focused on," as if I don't understand that all people have stress.
So I'm finding this reply a bit ironic. Maybe it's supposed to be and I'm just not picking up on the bit.
You ascribed some malice to my original post that wasn't there and are now doubling down. Why?
Agreed. SO recently left a career in academia to get a job in tech as an entry level software developer. Says this is the easiest job they've ever had in their life, and wondered why they didn't start sooner.
Developers have no idea how difficult even other white collar jobs are, let alone blue collar work that involves physical labor and the outdoors.
Out of all of them, I have the "best" job in terms of what's expected of me on a day-in-day-out basis. The biggest problem I feel us tech-workers have is that we compare our "bad" with their "good".
On a good day, a construction worker may get there, do their work for the amount of hours stipulated, and leave the work at work. That's our perspective. What we do not often see is the time they spend worrying about the weather conditions (if you're painting outside, can't do it in the rain), or whether this or that material will be on time/to spec, or that you sprained something yesterday and you really need to haul heavy stuff around today, and it cannot be delayed because people are relying on it being done, and this might mean your injury will worsen and you might not be able to work for a while.
We can get bad days. And our bad days can get pretty shitty. I won't begrudge anyone who'd love to leave the tech sector; I've often thought about it myself. But from hearing my friends in other professions talk about their bad days? Mine don't occur so often, and when they do, are often not as bad.
It's very difficult to deny our privilege when we talk to someone who works all day in the searing heat, and our day consisted of turning on our laptop at 11, running some Terraform scripts, making it to our favourite restaurant for sushi, enjoying an extended lunch while monitoring some deployments on our work tablet, and having a meeting while walking on a nearby park to negotiate internal deadlines. I've often been embarrassed to describe my day to some of my friends.
Nearly every bad day at work I had ended with beers + sometimes a huge (and expensive) party. This is lifestyle comparable to high-level directors in other fields. No wonder it's totally unrelatable experience to them - they usually find the boss of their company relatable too.
I also temporarily quit my IT job because I felt burned, got a job cleaning floors and washing clothes. Again I loved the work.
If it weren't for the pay I wouldn't work in this field. I'm hoping to quit for good in a few years, switching careers doesn't make much sense at this point.
My father was a corporate finance executive for 25 years. He hated the political drama, attention to detail, mundane routine, long hours and being indoors all day. He quit and started roofing. And loved being outside.
I worked with the county doing road construction and logging for seven years, then was a teacher for a couple years after that. Now I work at a cushy FAANG job.
I still miss both of my previous jobs often. Construction wasn't super meaningful, but there was a focus on making quality artifacts that isn't really the same in software. (Software is too complex, too large, and has too many constraints.) Working with physical implements is nice. I miss knowing the weather more intimately, and being physically exhausted at the end of the day.
Teaching was very meaningful, but emotionally exhausting. If the pay hadn't been terrible and if I had found a supportive administration, I'd probably be happier teaching. I miss working with children, being a part of a community.
Having worked these sort of jobs and having enjoyed them, I don't think it's condescending at all. I think there may be a bit of ignorance there. If you didn't grow up doing physical labor (I grew up on a farm) then you likely will have a hard time adapting to physical exertion/pain. And you have to recognize that you'll likely encounter physical injuries, especially later in your career. (In my shortish stint, I managed to injure my shoulder, and it still affects me). But if SWEs still like the idea, then they should give it a shot for a year. Software will still be there.
I'd say the major difference is that in the trades, the tools actually work.
If you simply fuck up during your development, the most you'll get in practice is a letter from the regulator requiring you to change the fucked up thing; Fines arrive when management refuses to change the fucked up thing and tries to invent a loophole instead.
And sometimes you just want something radically different. But don't pretend it's simple enough that we - the brilliant computer and maths people - could easily just start doing it. I think that's where the patronizing comes in. Any professional job requires training and experience.
As far as training goes- software engineering doesn’t seem particularly rigorous in providing it compared to other disciplines.
"A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic competition will grow up with the will to do what needs doing and the capacity for joy in doing it. It is useless work that darkens the heart. The delight of the nursing mother, of the scholar, of the successful hunter, of the good cook, of the skillful maker, of anyone doing needed work and doing it well—this durable joy is perhaps the deepest source of human affection, and of sociality as a whole."
I suppose there's a sense in the trades that you know somebody wants something before you do it, because they've asked for it. And you can usually see where it fits into the bigger picture because the interconnected pieces are visually and physically connected.
I get a similar satisfaction from being a part time musician. When I show up to play music, it's because somebody has hired me to play music, and within the band there's a specific part that's filled by my work. I also know the quality of my own work instantly as I do it. I love music as an art, but on the bandstand, I'm a tradesman first and an artist second.
Working in a tech field, it can be hard to know if what you're making is ever going to matter to anybody, and it's possible to do negative work in the sense of costing more than what it returns. That can be frustrating.
> the object which labor produces – labor's product – confronts it as something alien, as a power independent of the producer. The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object, which has become material: it is the objectification of labor. Labor’s realization is its objectification. Under these economic conditions this realization of labor appears as loss of realization for the workers; objectification as loss of the object and bondage to it; appropriation as estrangement, as alienation.
> [...]
> the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts...
There's a world of difference between taking a week to ship a new button to Chrome at Google (low impact, but at least high visibility) and creating a project from scratch over the course of months for it to be killed off by or not work out for the stakeholders (no impact AND no/low visibility). This happens with most projects.
On the other hand, building or fixing something physical you know that at least you're solving a real problem for someone, and it will probably last them a while.
Software is constantly churning and evolving precisely because such evolutions are not limited by tools, materials, or constraints of the physical world. Way better for creativity, but rarely leaves us devs feeling proud of the work we've done
Same things goes with anything really.
Frankly, I hold a few roles and have for years. Some of those involve flat out making stuff, wielding tools, taking a shower at the end of the day type stuff. Others are business, development, some engineering electronics, software.
For me, the variety is good, and it reflects how I came up in rural America, where basically you learned how to fix your own car, help on the farm, do what it takes because few had the money to spend to solve problems. And no judgement on those who have that. I have that today. It's just that I didn't then, and the skills came along with the scene.
I'm writing this because there are plenty of times where I look for something I'm not currently doing, or involved with. The reasons vary too:
Less stress
More structure
Right now: less liability / risk though I expect a reward for that happening
More people
Less people
No people.
Any of us, whether we are in construction, software, electronics, plumbing, mechanics, all reach a point where we can nail it. If we are lucky, we are exposed to a few different disciplines and can reach that point a few times in our lives.
If anything, I would call said "pining" boredom, or seeking perspective of some kind, just a change up, if nothing else.
Personally, I feel that is OK, and encourage it in my peers, help them where I can.
Stretch a little. Feels good sometimes. Sometimes it's regrettable too.
You are better for having done it though.
Most trades (!including plumbing!) have VASTLY more stringent requirements than tech, are often more mentally stimulating, and yes, quite rewarding.
Disclaimer: I've worked in software for ~9 years and worked in trades before that. ASE master certified auto technician, father is a master electrician, uncles are contractors. I'll probably become a plumber.
For instance, my entire family works in mining, some riggers, some electricians and others environmental surveying. I am the only one that works in front of a computer all day. When they get home from work, that's it they switch off, no emails, no calls, no reports to write late at night due to a delayed project. Their work shifts to another group of employees to continue or finish. They come home tired and sleep way better than I do.
I think about it all the time and what it would be like to work with my hands in a trade, sure we all work late sometimes and that's not industry specific. But its the feeling of working in a field with your hands as opposed to your words.
It's also easy for tradesman to look at what we do and think its easy too. But at the end of the day there's no perfect job and some appeal better to others.
That's not the issue. The issue is assuming it's something you could "just do" to remove the stress in your life, as though the job is trivial.
I can confess to passing the person holding the STOP and SLOW sign at a construction site, and even saying out loud, "Now that's a job I could do."
But when the fog clears, and the paycheck lands in the bank, it's, well... nah. I'd rather put up with the stress or ennui and have the cash.
Then there's also the problem of not using your body. Up until extremely recently in evolutionary history, we used our bodies and brains together. It turns out office work can be just as bad for your body as swinging a hammer or welding pipes due to inactivity. It's really a dehumanizing way to live. Certainly you can try to balance the scales by hitting the gym after work, but it can be a struggle when you're fried from the day.
What I can say is have more hobbies, and perhaps we (those who care) should be working to differentiate a genre (vertical, size, location, something) as being better, so it feels like less of a game of chance every time people are looking for 'better'.
This is really a problem, there's inherent value in egalitarianism or democracy, but perhaps due to a lack of deeply technical managers it often plays as you say hard to get anything good done due to bike-shedding and not being led by experience.
Complexity is no indicator of worth to society, nor is salary.
I think your experience of tech workers is not representative of the tech industry in general: for every high-paid IT person, there's 2 or 3 (maybe 50?) who're getting paid peanuts and have very indecent working conditions, and i personally find it somewhat condescending to suggest it's just an isolated incident and it's so easy to just walk down the street to find better work conditions.
In fact, that very sentence was pronounced by our slaver-in-chief Emmanuel Macron and was widely derided as condescending. It's hard for people to find a job, especially if you don't have high connections. It's even harder to find a decent job: to find a quasi-slavery posting you can just walk down to any luxurious restaurant/hotel but to find lawful/respectful working conditions, i still don't know of a magic formula.
The tech meme of dropping out to pick up a trade is pretty funny at times, especially when it's coming from people who couldn't change a doorknob, but I don't think jobs are one-size-fits-all, and I do think some people would be happier with a job that requires doing hard work outside.
The biggest thing that jumps out to me about programming vs my father’s work is the agency. He goes into a home, diagnoses, and fixes an issue. No MBA / PM / Scrum Bags to needlessly insert themselves into a process and cause issues. Contrasted with most jobs where I get delivered a small chunk of an issue (as a Senior / Lead) which robs me of my agency as a professional and often time just leads to more delays and defects driven by a lack of a coherent vision passed down. Rather abstract, but infuriating when I damn well know I could have delivered higher-quality and ahead of schedule. Providing “Commander’s Intent” is a very real necessity.
I don’t know that tangible vs. intangible is a factor, for me at least, making web / mobile oriented systems. Hell, even a really good shell script to codify a workflow for coworkers is insanely satisfying.
Other than that, human interaction. Having a human be genuinely satisfied that you helped them with their issue they couldn’t have solved... that’s rewarding at a level rarely ever get.
The big offer is comfort (both in workplace and in salary) is the primary offer - perhaps to many friction is the spice of life.
The scrum-driven, jira-driven "small chunk" style of development is kinda depressing to me. It wasn't always like this, and there's so many new folks in tech many don't remember it used to be different.
Yes, if you were an actual plumber who spent half a day tugging diapers out of a 2 inch pipe, and some dumbass hipster you run into later tells you how glamorous your job is, that might be a bit annoying. But people in all sorts of fields experience that annoyance to some degree.
Anecdotally, I have two friends I went to college with who daydreamed about quitting their desk jobs and working a trade. One of them, I worked with on construction crews during school breaks, and he'd talk about how much he preferred that to college. He ended up in an office job anyway.
The other guy didn't have that trade experience, he just felt he'd like it better. He did some white collar work after graduation, hated it. Later he went on to work in a couple trades until finding one that fit; he went through a very extensive licensing process, and now makes good money and spends very little time behind a desk. And he's very happy with that -- so it does work out for some people.
No, it's such a cliche that's why Office Space chose to use it.
The movie Lost in America explores this theme much more generally.
The funniest thing about the end of Office Space is that by "dropping out" of software during the Y2k era and entering the construction field, the protagonist is just swapping one bubble for another, software for housing.
This also happens with Kiki's Delivery Service. It makes the English dub much, much better than the Japanese original.
In the software world, you don't get the satisfaction of knowing that you have done something well in the same visceral way physical trades provide.
A big aspect of Marxism is that labor has been alienated from their production in the age of industrialization, so I’d say it’s been a thing for a while.
I started learning joinery a year ago. I'm still terrible at it by professional standards, but I've made some bespoke furniture pieces for our house that would have cost 2-3x what I spent in tools and materials, and I enjoyed the process.
It's definitely something you can do in your spare time, and even if you don't decide to go pro, you've still learned a valuable life skill.
A friend of nice from school stopped coding to open a brewery and I'm regularly considering starting a street food thing. Even started to get some of the gears sand the certifications...
In addition to your other good points, I used to work construction, and it was never like this. Requirements were not spelled out, and we constantly had to deal with unexpected issues, or ridiculous homeowners with dumb ideas. Timelines and deadlines were harsh, and you were often blocked by somebody else's work, but were still expected to finish by a given date.
On the plus side, it really is satisfying to be able to see the results of your work at the end of the day, nearly every day. Progress is visible and real.
On the downside, construction in the summer is rough work. You can be on rooftops working with materials or tools that make it even hotter. There's lots of exhausting carrying heavy things from here to there. There's incredibly long hours (10 hour days is within the norm, 6 day 12 hour schedules aren't rare, and 16 hour days not unheard of). In any decent construction job that's a ton of overtime pay, which really adds up, but it's also exhausting. A 6/12 schedule is basically work/sleep/work. Great way to save money for the coming school year, terrible way to make a living long term.
I miss being able to see my work. And to be able to drive by 20 years later and point and say "Yep, I built that." Don't underestimate the pride that brings.
But I don't regret my career choice at all. Construction is viscerally satisfying in a lot of ways, but it's not how I want to spend my days.
A neighbor owns a painting company. He goes around the various job sites in the morning, sees that everyone has their marching orders for the day, returns in the afternoon to check in on the progress. In between the morning and afternoon though? He does what he pleases.
I believe he started the company with a buddy, the two of them doing the painting. Things grow though, you hire guys, your role changes (and your income too).
Unpopular opinion: being an owner is hard. You think it's easy until $80k doesn't come in on time and you have to make payroll by mortgaging your house, or you have to wake up at 2 am because a developer got arrested by INS (even though they were a US citizen), or you have to deal with a $150K medical bill that your insurance wouldn't cover... etc... Or an employee tries to make a copy of your code and launch a competing business...
Life is hard.
I often wonder why the other painters working for him don't go off and start their own painting companies. Perhaps a few will. But I suspect many of them would not enjoy or be comfortable with spread sheets, business taxes, work insurance and some of the other things that go along with owning the company.
I suspect my neighbor, like many of us, fond those things to be fairly un-intimidating and so he owns.
I've got a very good friend who worked as a painter, did the 8-3 5 days a week gig for probably 8 years or so. He had no interest in running a business, managing clients, dealing with costing, estimates, etc. He just wanted to show up, paint and leave at 3.
> and some of the other things that go along with owning the company.
One of the big differences is what happens if there's no work, or if someone stiffs you or if the work required is substantially more than the estimate? In all three of those cases a business owner is in trouble, but the painter doesn't care.
One of the things I legitimately struggle to understand about other people is the willingness to exchange an irreplaceable thing, time, for a very replaceable thing, money, and suffer while doing it when other choices exist. The "when" in that bit is very important. A lot of people do not have that choice, and I understand why they continue; there's no other option. But for people who do what we do and how we do it, why chase the brass ring for so long? You don't have to suffer at Amazon, no amount of stock options are worth it. You will never get back that night you spent working on that one last thing instead of going home to your partner or kids or friends. The marginal impact of another $5,000 when you already make $125,000 in a year is very small.
And, as a bonus, not only are you helping yourself, you're helping the rest of our industry. Since we are largely allergic to unions in this industry, the only leverage we have is if enough people finally realize that it is possible to have a good work as part of a good life.
You really will get back that night you spent working: it likely afforded you many more nights retired, free.
If the only thing you value is retirement and complete freedom indefinitely. Personally I'd much rather have an extra day on my weekend now, and have to work an extra year at the same pace I'm working at now (and enjoy it too) rather than minmax to the point of sacrificing everything for the next 15 years to finally be able to do what I want to do - which is what I have right now.
It's no different in Tech. What is hard about being a developer is that you are building. The analogy between your friend who owns and manages a painting company, isn't really that far off. As long as your are primarily responsible for getting the work done... well, the expectation will be closed tickets, shipped features.
"Constant need to stay up to date" is actually one of the things I really like about this field, because it's one of the things that prevents the work from getting redundant, at least in the long run.
I have done a decent bit of network and systems administration in the past. I don't like it. It's hard on me sitting at a computer all day. Sometimes I got to go somewhere else and play with some equipment for a bit, but it was mostly a sit at a desk and stare at a screen kind of job. I really need the physical activity. Nowadays I repair rental houses for a number of property owners around here and I'll never go back, even if does pay a little less. I don't really find the work any more or less enjoyable overall, but I work less hours which means I have more time of my own, I sleep so much better at night, and my mental health has improved significantly. Also I get to work by myself which is real nice.
Edit: Many trade jobs are not like mine. I work my own hours, at my own pace, doing mostly light work. Every now and then I might get a helper. I was a roofer when I was much younger, and that's not something my body could handle anymore.
In software, someone with their own software consultancy or an indie app developer could be equivalent.
Worked fast food, retail. Been a dishwasher, bus boy....
I think there is something abut the manual labor that gives you a daily sense of accomplishment. The lawn work for sure. Arriving at a tatty yard, leaving it looking like a golf course.... That sort of day-to-day sense of achievement is much more rare in software development.
To be sure I ultimately chased the higher-paying software field. But when I would see the "grounds keepers" at the Apple campus, I was often a little envious....
I think a good part of it is also the fact that manual labor involves physical activity, which in itself can help to improve mood.
If you've seen Good Will Hunting, imagine Affleck and Damon's characters meeting again years down the road. Affleck might call Damon a "computer pussy" but both of them know Affleck is proud of Damon and would trade places with him if he had the skills.
Not to say "computer pussy" isn't potentially extremely condescending; just that such usage of profanity among laborers is often colloquially used to express sincere kinship and camaraderie.
And who I think would be unpleasantly surprised to find out certain inconveniences if everyone's available working hours were cut back by 1 day per week.
The argument for the 4 day workweek is that _many_ jobs would be performed just as efficiently as if they were 5 days per week, so they might as well be. If there was a compelling argument that hospital patients required 16 hours of care per day rather than 24, you can bet people would be suggesting dropping doctor and nurse shifts to 4x8 or 5x8 rather than 4x12 or whatever insanity they're doing right now.
None of them were top-level contractors, those who plan and hand out work to others, instead being people on the ground working on sometimes physically demanding tasks in all conditions and being the public face of the operation so sometimes interacting with difficult members of the public. Maybe if you get one of those management/middle-management jobs in construction the dynamic would be different, but then again you'll have a lot of the same problems that make me avoid management/middle-management jobs in our industry.
[1] and have known others
Easy, clean, indoor work (generally) that you can get really good and you can pretty much name your price because everybody freaks when they don’t have hot water or it is leaking.
Most people weren’t made to sit behind a desk all day.
There's no requirement to sit at a desk, you can use a standing desk or in my case I actually use a treadmill at varying heights inclines and speeds while typing in a computer using an economic keyboard.
I did some landscaping work during summers while in university and it can be absolute hell on your joints - now stack that 40 hours a week for years.
Yeah... have fun with that.
Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got near the end. Luckily the bosses were pretty cool and provided them with decent food for lunch and plenty of drinks (but I still offered them food and drinks too).
I on the other hand was working at my desk in my air conditioned house in comfortable clothes. A few times a day I'd put on my flip-flops and wander around outside to check on their work, ask a few questions, and then head back in when it got too hot.
And a couple of times the plumbing sprung a leak just as they were getting ready to leave, despite their best efforts to get all the risky work done early, and they they had to stay super late. Once the plumber was here till midnight after arriving at 8am.
I used to have thoughts about how it would be nice to have a job with totally spelled out requirements that end at 5pm and then you have the rest of the day off. But no more. I'd much rather work at my comfy desk inside and deal with the occasional call at 9pm on a Saturday than deal with what they all went through.