Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by AnotherGoodName on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:45PM
(#30215165)
Starlink can't do satellite to satellite hops and is low orbit. So there needs to be a base station within a short distance for the user to bounce to via a single satellite.
So right now Starlink won't work in Tonga since the nearest base station (Boorowra, NSW) is over the horizon for satellites visible to people in Tonga.
The base station in Fiji means that Starlink can work in Tonga.
Note that Inmarsat, iridium, etc. work just fine in Tonga in the meantime.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by dotnet00 on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:01PM
(#30215332)
They're still a relatively small portion of the operational constellation, so while better than nothing, they aren't common enough to rely on for continuous service, thus the choice of Fiji for this temporary station.
While this will likely not be the case within another year, what matters in relation to this is what they can do right now, not in another year. This shouldn't be taken as criticism of Starlink, but rather an example of the possibilities as the fully featured constellation starts to become ready.
Eventually they wouldn't need to send over engineers to setup a base station, they'd just send over some dishes and adjust routing priorities.
Musk himself says there's not enough laser-capable satellites yet. This is why they're setting up a ground station in Fiji (because it has internet), to act as the relay.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by monkeybutton on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:23PM
(#30215558)
The source linked to by the wiki article talks about the first batch of laser link satellites being launched but doesn't really go into much depth about it. Does this mean they're wrapping up the testing phase? It would be cool to read more about the practical logistics done to make such a network work in orbit.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by mlindner on Friday February 04, 2022 @09:31PM
(#30216475)
Yep that is exactly the situation. The inter-satellite laser link satellites don't have enough in orbit yet to provide anything better than intermittent (a couple times a day) connectivity.
Fiji is nearby so can act as a ground station for the satellites as it has internet.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by derekp7 on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:59PM
(#30215314)
With 500+ ms ping and 100 gb per month I take issue with regular satellite "just fine". But I may be biased due to what I'm used to. Starlink should be much lower latency, even with the extra ground hop.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by mbreese on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:01PM
(#30215331)
Can you use them to communicate? Then, yes, they work just fine. Are they limited in what they can do? Of course they are, but when the entire country is largely offline, you'll take what you can get.
Nobody (I hope) is trying to use the other options to stream Netflix at the moment.
Would a Starlink setup be better? Absolutely, but that has also had issues, which meant that it wasn't an option at all. Hopefully are now addressed and Tonga will have better communications options. I'm pretty impressed by their ability to get a new ground station up and running so quickly.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by throw6622 on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:39PM
(#30215113)
This is not a good look for Kacific. Tonga already had a contract with them to implement satellite internet before the eruption. It seems like their ability to actually deploy their technology was so poor SpaceX can beat them starting from square 1. One of the many ways Starlink will disrupt the best laid plans.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by e4e78a06 on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:56PM
(#30215287)
It looks like the contracted amount from Kacific was 1 Gbps and the previous fiber cable was offering 10 Gbps. It doesn't seem implausible that a single prioritized Starlink Premium terminal could deliver at least 1 Gbps and that would be very easy to fly in and setup.
Side note, it's really incredible that an entire island got by on 10 Gbps of bandwidth.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by selectodude on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:04PM
(#30215366)
It's only 100k people. I'm sure nobody is able to pull huge bandwidth but even if every man, woman, and child on the island was hammering away at it 24/7, that's 100kbit per person. Slow, but usable.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by rootsudo on Saturday February 05, 2022 @02:54PM
(#30225143)
Not really, you assume that everyone in the world is the same as you. Much of the world is still using pre 4G technology and pipes with cell phones that have 512mb ram and possibly 32gb of memory (Total.)
Then you also have to realize what is the most consumption and usage - unlike most countries it is not streaming in general.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by Taniwha on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:28PM
(#30216076)
Remember that they're replacing seabed fibre that was damaged by the eruption - news reports this week say that they went to fish it up this week and couldn't find it (around the point of one of the breaks) - I'm guessing that TDR measurements from both ends give them numbers that don't add up so they know there are at least 2 breaks.
That fibre is a dogleg from Fiji to Tonga - and will get repaired relatively quickly so I'm not sure about "outlives" - certainly there will be people in Tonga who may choose to continue with starlink but it may prove to be too expensive for most people (one the other hand the govt may choose it for some outlying islands)
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by pjscott on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:53PM
(#30215254)
Once they get the inter-satellite laser links working, there are probably better places to put ground stations. Right now they're going with Fiji as the location because it has internet connectivity and is close enough for Starlink satellites to be visible from both places. The latter constraint will probably go away before too long.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by cptcobalt on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:46PM
(#30215170)
Is open access to information and the internet by not currently a fundamental human right? It is good that a company is working to rapidly restore reliable internet service to Tonga.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by nexuist on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:07PM
(#30215396)
How is open access to information not a fundamental human right? Do you believe in a society where people can't find out about things? If you don't, then you believe in the open access of information.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by JumpCrisscross on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:16PM
(#30215488)
> How is open access to information not a fundamental human right? Do you believe in a society where people can't find out about things?
Non sequitur. I believe in many things that make a society good and better which do not reach the standard of a human right.
This is my personal litmus test: the deprivation of a human right should create a legitimate claim to be violent. If your human rights are being denied, you have the right to take up arms. (My theory being the state, at that point, has lost the legitimacy of its monopoly on violence.)
Blood has been spilled over slavery. Starvation. Torture and free speech. Blood is not owed because someone didn’t pay their Comcast bill.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by erulabs on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:44AM
(#30218034)
Agreed - and this is exactly why the concept of "positive" and "negative" rights exists. If no one is providing you with free access to information, free of charge, that is not an acceptable thing to get violent over. But as has already been misunderstood in this thread, the reverse of that is the positive right: If someone was *preventing* you from accessing information, that would be an acceptable time to get violent.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by datameta on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:18PM
(#30216001)
I would argue governmental domestic disinfo programs violate said right (i.e. Russia or China). They change the heuristics for what is believable by many citizens and thereby effectively make much external information useless. This is a form of control by the government, and in extreme forms is grounds for protests or even anti-government riots.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by xboxnolifes on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:53PM
(#30223657)
How is "the internet is a human right" related to "the us has disinformation campaign". If blackout removed your internet access for a week, is that a violation of your human rights?
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by datameta on Saturday February 05, 2022 @01:01PM
(#30223759)
I think your ire stems from thinking I'm pointing the finger at the U.S.
If you re-read my comments you'll see that I don't mention it anywhere.
Blackout is unintentional. Unless it is the result of infrastructure mismanagement stemming from politicians' ineptitude. In any case, it is not an acute malicious action, and quite the strawman argument.
I don't think you're taking my statement in good faith and so I won't expand on it - since you don't seem interested in discourse by offering your thoughts instead of flatly questioning mine.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by AtlasBarfed on Saturday February 05, 2022 @12:33AM
(#30217963)
It the freedom of press/speech thing? First amendment of the Bill of Rights?
The internet is simply the means of the day.
Look at it this way, if the government stopped all paper from being delivered to newspapers, would that have been indirect, but nonetheless a very effective means of restricting the press?
TV was always creepily restricted, although restricted bandwidth did need regulation.
If violence is your standard, I don't want to live in your utopia. Like, what if I just pollute the hell out of your property from afar, and you get cancer five years later. Is that... VIOLENT?
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by bladegash on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:19PM
(#30215525)
How IS it a fundamental human right? Access to information is conferred through a variety of human made constructs (including laws, which can enable or disable access) and I disagree that universal access to information is generally understood to be a natural right, and by proxy fundamental human right. Believing that something should be bestowed to people, does not make it a fundamental human right.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by xwdv on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:15PM
(#30215475)
You can believe people should be able to find out about things.
But not be entitled to it. People don't need to be entitled to everything. There are very few true fundamental human rights in this world. All of them are raw primal needs. Food. Water. Air. Not being killed or tortured. What else really?
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by adventured on Friday February 04, 2022 @10:25PM
(#30216846)
> How is open access to information not a fundamental human right?
Someone has to provide that for you. If someone has to provide it for you, who is going to be forced to do so in the absence of such? What right do you have to force them into labor if they choose not to provide it? How does your fundamental right exist then - you'd have to enslave someone/s to enable it.
And thus, it's not a fundamental right. It has to be provisioned to you by someone's efforts, often at significant effort and cost overall.
Material goods that have to be produced by someone's labor inherently can't be fundamental rights (what right do you have to their labor?), even if some silly societies wish to label them under that for propaganda purposes.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by inglor_cz on Saturday February 05, 2022 @05:38PM
(#30227011)
Open access to information will in practice be always limited by the underlying economy.
It is much more expensive to provide wideband connections to isolated islands in the middle of the ocean than to a condo in the middle of Tokyo.
In a similar way, monolingual speakers of tiny languages will necessarily be limited to a subset of the world's knowledge that was translated into their language. And it is no one else's fault.
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by chmod775 on Friday February 04, 2022 @08:09PM
(#30215941)
I don't think people should have to live without access to peanuts either, but that doesn't mean I consider lack of them a human rights violation and possible casus belli. Peanut air drops for citizens under peanut-hating governments?
Re:SpaceX engineers in Fiji for six months
by NikolaeVarius on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:41PM
(#30215722)
Human Fundamental Rights are just nice things that most of us have agreed upon sounds nice and is probably a good thing. This generally is maintained by the UN
So right now Starlink won't work in Tonga since the nearest base station (Boorowra, NSW) is over the horizon for satellites visible to people in Tonga.
The base station in Fiji means that Starlink can work in Tonga.
Note that Inmarsat, iridium, etc. work just fine in Tonga in the meantime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#V1.5_(operational)
While this will likely not be the case within another year, what matters in relation to this is what they can do right now, not in another year. This shouldn't be taken as criticism of Starlink, but rather an example of the possibilities as the fully featured constellation starts to become ready.
Eventually they wouldn't need to send over engineers to setup a base station, they'd just send over some dishes and adjust routing priorities.
Musk himself says there's not enough laser-capable satellites yet. This is why they're setting up a ground station in Fiji (because it has internet), to act as the relay.
Fiji is nearby so can act as a ground station for the satellites as it has internet.
Nobody (I hope) is trying to use the other options to stream Netflix at the moment.
Would a Starlink setup be better? Absolutely, but that has also had issues, which meant that it wasn't an option at all. Hopefully are now addressed and Tonga will have better communications options. I'm pretty impressed by their ability to get a new ground station up and running so quickly.
Side note, it's really incredible that an entire island got by on 10 Gbps of bandwidth.
Then you also have to realize what is the most consumption and usage - unlike most countries it is not streaming in general.
That fibre is a dogleg from Fiji to Tonga - and will get repaired relatively quickly so I'm not sure about "outlives" - certainly there will be people in Tonga who may choose to continue with starlink but it may prove to be too expensive for most people (one the other hand the govt may choose it for some outlying islands)
No.
People trying to stuff everything under the sun into the human rights label are to a large part to blame for public disillusionment with the term.
Non sequitur. I believe in many things that make a society good and better which do not reach the standard of a human right.
This is my personal litmus test: the deprivation of a human right should create a legitimate claim to be violent. If your human rights are being denied, you have the right to take up arms. (My theory being the state, at that point, has lost the legitimacy of its monopoly on violence.)
Blood has been spilled over slavery. Starvation. Torture and free speech. Blood is not owed because someone didn’t pay their Comcast bill.
If you re-read my comments you'll see that I don't mention it anywhere.
Blackout is unintentional. Unless it is the result of infrastructure mismanagement stemming from politicians' ineptitude. In any case, it is not an acute malicious action, and quite the strawman argument.
I don't think you're taking my statement in good faith and so I won't expand on it - since you don't seem interested in discourse by offering your thoughts instead of flatly questioning mine.
The internet is simply the means of the day.
Look at it this way, if the government stopped all paper from being delivered to newspapers, would that have been indirect, but nonetheless a very effective means of restricting the press?
TV was always creepily restricted, although restricted bandwidth did need regulation.
If violence is your standard, I don't want to live in your utopia. Like, what if I just pollute the hell out of your property from afar, and you get cancer five years later. Is that... VIOLENT?
But not be entitled to it. People don't need to be entitled to everything. There are very few true fundamental human rights in this world. All of them are raw primal needs. Food. Water. Air. Not being killed or tortured. What else really?
Someone has to provide that for you. If someone has to provide it for you, who is going to be forced to do so in the absence of such? What right do you have to force them into labor if they choose not to provide it? How does your fundamental right exist then - you'd have to enslave someone/s to enable it.
And thus, it's not a fundamental right. It has to be provisioned to you by someone's efforts, often at significant effort and cost overall.
Material goods that have to be produced by someone's labor inherently can't be fundamental rights (what right do you have to their labor?), even if some silly societies wish to label them under that for propaganda purposes.
It is much more expensive to provide wideband connections to isolated islands in the middle of the ocean than to a condo in the middle of Tokyo.
In a similar way, monolingual speakers of tiny languages will necessarily be limited to a subset of the world's knowledge that was translated into their language. And it is no one else's fault.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
Take it up with them if you want the internet on this list
Belief has little to do with this, legally speaking.
I think the engineers who work there would jump at the chance. :)
I've lived in NY, Boston, DC, Cali, Florida, NC, London, AZ, WA.... nothing beats Redmond!
Personaly preference of course :)