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Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by criddell on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:19AM (#29810911)
If I were to design a house with the idea that it should serve future generations, I'd design it to be reconfigured, recycled, or torn down easily.

After reading some of Stewart Brand's writing, I've learned to love ugly buildings.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by NortySpock on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:22PM (#29811872)
The parent poster is probably referring to "How Buildings Learn", a book by Stewart Brand with lots of architectural pictures and commentary about how various buildings have been (re)used over the decades or centuries.

Brand posits (a) human needs change faster than buildings age, and thus buildings must adapt to that change over the lifespan of the building

(b) there are two reasons a building lives to be more than 100 years old: either the building is historic / well loved enough that we live with a building's warts even though it doesn't meet our needs perfectly (a Parliament building, a church, a house that cannot be modified) OR it is so flexible or easy (cheap) to modify that it can suit many purposes. (A small commercial building that can hold a dentist office or a restaurant or a law office or a nail salon, a house with an extension, a warehouse that can be converted to a modest factory floor, etc)

Buildings that cannot be adapted are torn down and replaced.

The book is excellent, and beautiful, and I recommend a physical copy to everyone.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by austinl on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:33PM (#29812999)
It's fascinating how culture has effects on architecture. So many older American homes have small kitchens that are separate from a formal dining room. Historically, a family member or cook would be making food separately, out of the way, and then it was presented in the dining room.

Today, everyone wants a kitchen that's integrated with the dining area. Cooking has been culturally elevated – people don't feel like they need to do it out of the way. But unfortunately, many of these older homes cannot be easily modified. Walls are often load-bearing instead of being reconfigurable.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by kgran on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:48PM (#29813192)
Not just American homes. In Europe all the new flats and houses are designed with kitchens merged with the dining room. Even the old flats are often redesigned by owners or developers by tearing down the wall(s), separating the kitchen from the other room(s). I personally hate this trend because I don't like getting cooking odors all over the place. I'll probably just build a wall whenever I'd be forced to buy such a place.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by wintermutestwin on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:59PM (#29813321)
The solution to cooking odors is to have adequate ventilation that exits the structure. It blows me away that this is not code in every kitchen and bathroom. I live in rules-heavy CA and my kitchen vent "exhausts" back into the kitchen.

Every time there are people gathering at someone's house, they tend to congregate in the kitchen as that's where the food action is all at. Give me one big open space with kitchen, dining space and a living room all in one. Open concept is highly desirable in modern housing.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by _Adam on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:17PM (#29813547)
With proper ventilation this isn't an issue. My kitchen is centrally located, so I installed a range hood made by a Chinese company (Fotile, approximately $1300 on Amazon). It works exceptionally well. Even the smokiest/smelliest cooking odors don't escape.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by jppope on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:26PM (#29815170)
This is super funny to me. I just bought a house where the kitchen is separate. My parents, and my mother-in-law were all like... "you can knock down the wall and bring the rooms together"... and I was like: "hell no. As if I want a bunch of kids playing tag while I'm chopping things with sharp knives and running around with burning oil."

...Leave me alone to cook an awesome meal in peace. I'm working in there not messing around.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by mywittyname on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @06:46PM (#29816958)
I'm actually designing a new house and was surprised at the resistance I'm getting from the builders/architects in having a kitchen which is out of the way of the rest of the house. Like you, I'm not interested in dumping hot oil all over a kid/dog/mother who decides to run through the kitchen despite the blockade I set up to keep them out.

That, and kitchens require so much maintenance to keep clean and presentable. I hate how my entire house feels dirty because it's visible from any public spot in the house that I didn't get around to cleaning a few pans the night before.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by justnotworthit on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:25PM (#29817353)
I'd guess that's because of another phenomenon: A "good" house is one ready to sell to the next guy. Youre never living in your own house, always the next buyer's house. Hence the need to keep up with the latest fads, desired by the next guy who is buying from you for the sake of the next guy.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by rootusrootus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:38PM (#29813817)
What I see a lot of in my region (US PNW) is open kitchens integrating with informal dining areas (breakfast nook, or seating at a kitchen island) and living rooms. But most houses are still built with a separate dining room. Heck, my house was even built with a butler's pantry to connect them. That's pretty common.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by ramraj07 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:19PM (#29814373)
You have a separate dining room if you’re building a 6 room or larger MANSION. Calling a building with a separate dining room on top of a kitchen plus informal dining room as a Regular home seems to be a stretch.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by rootusrootus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:51PM (#29814755)
That's regional, of course. I'm talking bog-standard everyday houses in the 2500-3500sf range, no mansions.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by distances on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:15PM (#29815032)
2500sf is 232 square meters. That's three normal family city apartments by European standards. I guess houses just run bigger there but sounds quite excessive nonetheless.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by rootusrootus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:06PM (#29815711)
"Excessive" is a moral judgement. City apartments aren't typically 2500sf in the US, either. I was referring to single family detached homes, which are by far the dominant type of dwelling in my region. Land is cheap, wood is cheap. A 2500sf house will be a good bit cheaper than a little flat in most western European cities, I bet.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by distances on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:24AM (#29820132)
Didn't mean it as a moral judgement, sorry if that was not the right choice of words.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by meristem on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:34PM (#29813770)
This seems cultural for sure. I grew up in an apartment built in early 1970s with separate kitchen. To this day most apartments in my country are planned w/o open kitchens.

It is actually an ongoing joke with my partner, who has lived an open-kitchen life until meeting me.

PS: would be interesting to correlate enclosed kitchen with cost and availability of home labourers (slaves, maids, cooks, etc)

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by kube-system on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:58AM (#29811523)
Agreed. The idea that homes don't last 1000 years because of their construction quality is conflating correlation and causation. Homes don't last that long because ideas about what (or where) a home should be don't last 1000 years. Heck, in recent times, they hardly last 100 years.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by tablespoon on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:34PM (#29812062)
> Agreed. The idea that homes don't last 1000 years because of their construction quality is conflating correlation and causation. Homes don't last that long because ideas about what (or where) a home should be don't last 1000 years. Heck, in recent times, they hardly last 100 years.

And (IIRC) in Japan they often don't last past one owner, since a new owner will typically want to build a new house for themselves on the lot. An old home actually lowers the value of a lot, since you have to factor the demolition cost into the price.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by flanbiscuit on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:02PM (#29812565)
> in Japan they often don't last past one owner

This has been brought up before on HN and I remember a comment mentioning that they thought it was due to the fact that earthquake proofing technology advances quickly in Japan so an old house might not be up to the most current standard. Curious if that's correct, and if not, why is this so common in Japan then.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by Rikuesque on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:54PM (#29813270)
A thing I've noticed while attending school in Japan was that many old "Machiya" houses get torn down and more modern and western houses get built. At least this was the case in Kyoto. Earthquake-proofing the house is one aspect but I think people in Japan prefer to own a more western home. It's too bad because those old Japanese homes are getting taken down
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by JAlexoid on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:21PM (#29813599)
It's not a case of "more western home".

What you see as a "more western home" is a more energy efficient outer shell. Which just happens to be fairly universal.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by Rikuesque on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:37PM (#29813812)
I agree on that, although there are residential homes in Japan that implement energy efficient outer shell, while still keeping the Machiya look. There definitely is a preference in Japanese society for western style homes.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by fomine3 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:21PM (#29817308)
As a Japanese, I think modern houses in Japan as just a "house" rather than "western style house". That's the default rather than preference. Traditional Japanese style house isn't an option for most people. Cost and insulation would be a big reason.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by nihonde on Thursday January 06, 2022 @12:32AM (#29819866)
Most modern Japanese homes are not "western style" at all. They're usually built by large industrial concerns (e.g., Toyota, Sekisui, etc.) that prefabricate many components at scale. The process of building such a home in Japan begins with a company architect fitting their design system onto your lot. The price is fairly predictable, and relatively cheap—-under US$300K in most places. The home is designed with more or less the following priorities: 1. Safety 2. Ease of maintenance 3. Efficiency 4. Cost

And more recently, considerations for SDGs (sustainability goals) with respect to materials used.

Longevity is not a priority, as homes are expected to depreciate in value over roughly 20 years. There are many reasons for this, but my personal opinion is that industrialization has made it possible to upgrade the technology of the home at a pace and a price that favors rebuilding.

As for machiya and kominka, local governments like Kyoto have tried to intervene to preserve the traditional homes. The "no build" lots do not allow a property owner to build on anything other than the load-bearing structure for the old home. As a result, you have many empty lots and coin parking lots around Kyoto where the old home was unsalvageable or where the owner could not afford a renovation. To be honest, only tourists/foreigners would want to stay in a machiya for the novelty of it. Although they were marvelously engineered for their time, they tend to be rough living compared to the extremely easy and cheap prefab homes. There is also the problem of craftspeople who can maintain these old homes dying out, which adds to the cost of keeping them.

I don't think it's possible to attribute any of this to a general "Japanese" attitude, though. On the one hand, one of the most important and longest-lasting spiritual sites in Japan is Ise Jingu, which is rebuilt from scratch every 20 years as a Shinto ritual of renewal. On the other hand, you have some of the oldest and largest wooden structures in the world still standing in Nara.

As usual, it's complicated.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by bluGill on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:55PM (#29813280)
Earthquake is part of it. However culture is also part. Houses are built to last 20 years: even if you like where you live they still assume you will be rebuilding in 20 years. As such they can cut corners to save money - no problem so long as you rebuild every 20 years.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by lmm on Thursday January 06, 2022 @03:03AM (#29820693)
I think earthquakes, volcanoes and the like may have been the original reason that the culture sees buildings as transitory things. But like many cultural things it's now self-sustaining.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by myohmy on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:01PM (#29813351)
I immediately thought about the schools in smaller towns around here that were built in the 90s, which were built to last, and are now sitting as barely used community or senior centers. Society's needs can change a lot in 30 years, let alone 1000.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:19PM (#29811829)
The author basically agrees with you, lots of good commentary in the Conclusion section of the article:

> Designing a building for an extremely long lifespan is in some sense a bet on a certain kind of future - one where tomorrow’s physical infrastructure needs aren’t all that different from todays. And because physical infrastructure is hard to change once it’s in place, it’s also an attempt to bring that kind of future into existence. But if you think agglomeration effects should push cities to get larger and denser, or if you think we’re likely to see some cities shrinking as the nature of the economy changes, or if you think building technology is likely to change significantly, an extremely durable, an extremely long-lived house is perhaps less desirable.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by cschneid on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:00PM (#29811546)
Seems like a lot of the article is about just that. A really robust, reliable structure & foundation, with progressively less permanent things attached. A brick facade can easily last hundreds of years, but not a big deal to replace. Interior walls made of non-load-bearing-wood makes it "easy" enough to reconfigure rooms.

He mentions how the building shape is just a rectangle, which makes it reasonable to repurpose for many uses (he mentions office & separate apartments). He takes care to allow for routing of utilities under and inside the building.

It's not quite as reconfigurable as I think you're getting at - optimized for being torn down, but it's much closer than a typical 100yr house would be.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by JAlexoid on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:24PM (#29813633)
Wood walls are more complext to rearrange, than steel framed walls.(that is why offices have steel frames under that drywall - easy to install and move)
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by boringg on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:29AM (#29811043)
I think the reconfigured / recycled easily makes sense. Tough to build a product in 2000s for life in the 2900s.

That said the cost to make homes reconfigured/recycled easily is probably quite high and who knows if there will be people with knowledge to be able to perform that work in 400 years. Whereas a shelter can always be used by humans...

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by FinnKuhn on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:38AM (#29811202)
I personally believe that you need to find a compromise between a framework that lasts very long and party that can be recycled so you can adopt the house depending on your needs without needing to redo everything (for example foundation and some integral supports could probably be designed as a framework that can be adapted while walls, windows, room configuration, doors, etc. need to be changed eventually and therefore should be recyclable).
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by jethro_tell on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:58AM (#29811518)
We already do this with commercial construction. Every floor is just a big box that can be sectioned off as the new owner sees fit.

The key is that the structure is basically self standing with nothing but the outer walls, and if it's a tower, the center core instead.

Add a vertical chase way too to bottom for easy reconfiguring of cables and pipes and you can basically do anything you want until the structure fails.

Modern residential doesn't build like this because it would be expensive and probably pretty ugly. It's a lot cheaper to get your structure in bits and pieces by stacking walls on walls on the foundation then have just an outside structure and then have the floors and roof spanning outside to outside.

But it could easily be done with the materials we have.

Another major thing is the drop ceiling. It's designed to make access easy so that you can run cables and new plumbing anywhere you want.

It's ugly so you'd want to find a way to have a modular ceiling that isn't a drop ceiling, but maybe that works for you.

Last, for residential, you may butt up against height issues as to be modular like that you're want to have a couple feet extra between floors so you have room to move things around without opening things up.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by dpark on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:00PM (#29812521)
> Another major thing is the drop ceiling. It's designed to make access easy so that you can run cables and new plumbing anywhere you want. > It's ugly so you'd want to find a way to have a modular ceiling that isn't a drop ceiling, but maybe that works for you.

If you build with trusses for floors instead of joists, you can get a lot of the same benefits as a drop ceiling without the ugliness. You can run plumbing/vents/whatever though the trusses without destroying the whole ceiling to get access. You might not need to cut into the ceiling at all depending on what you’re doing and what existing access you have (e.g. an unfinished utility space may allow access to supply new power cables).

Of course patching the ceiling is hardly a big concern if you’re talking about a structure surviving for 1000 years.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by jethro_tell on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:13PM (#29812699)
The 1000 years is a separate conversation I think than the modular concept. One could lead to another, but depending on how modular you wanted to be, access to the ceiling is a must.

On the other hand, if you make the trusses large enough and give an /attic/crawl access you could go up there and do the thing without needing to renovate. Then all center walls are non structural and you can move them as you please.

Come to think of it, I might build a house like this.

You can also leave the mechanical on the outside and not cover it too. I guess there's a certain beauty to me in the robot parts but I don't think many would like that.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by dpark on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:20PM (#29812820)
How often you expect to reconfigure is a huge factor. Drop ceilings make complete sense in many commercial buildings, where access to change/move cables and whatnot probably happens every year. For residences, that sort of work happens a lot less frequently.

You can also get away with ugly ceilings more easily when they are higher. A drop ceiling 8 feet or less from the floor is an eyesore. At 12 feet up it’s a lot less noticeable. Of course if you have very high ceilings you can often just leave them uncovered and have a more industrial aesthetic. You have to be more intentional about routing all the utilities then.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by criddell on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:53AM (#29811431)
The cost may be high, but it doesn't have to be. That's why I mentioned Brand.

An example he cites is MIT's Building 20[1]. It only stood for 50 years, but that's not too bad for a structure that was intended to be temporary. Some amazing stuff came out of that building.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_20

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by austinl on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @01:21PM (#29812836)
This is what things are like in many parts of Japan (see https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusabl...).

Oddly enough, the value of houses in Japan depreciate over time (like cars). It's kind of a cultural thing. People want to live in a new house of their own, so many houses are built in a pre-fab way, with the intent that they'll be torn down and recycled in 20-30 years.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by d0gsg0w00f on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @12:16PM (#29811784)
Wood is pretty easy to reuse and basically lasts forever if you keep it dry.
Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by kuhewa on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:42PM (#29815407)
> torn down

Hmmmm. I think that doesn't count on ship of Theseus type grounds.

Re:How to design a house to last 1000 years by HPsquared on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:27PM (#29815175)
Be wary of making it too ugly though - people will look after it much better if it's beautiful.