I have a 2017 Model X that I bought new. The EV part is great, its everything else that sucks. Since I've had it, I've taken it for service for the following:
o Arrived w/o Tow pkg (Tesla "forgot" it, was installed via service center appt)
o falcon wing doors improperly adjusted, leading to wind noise and water intrusion
o Loud wind noise and fogging passenger side windows: Due to improperly installed "triangle" window on passenger door
o Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced at ~20k miles
o fogging drivers side A pillar camera after rain, leading to "navigate on autopilot unavailable"
o Drove in "low" mode to preserve half shafts, caused excessive tire wear. Wore inner rear tires down to a puncture around 30k miles. Replaced tires and had car re-aligned to run in "low" mode.
o Half shafts replaced again at 38k miles
o Upper control arms shot around 39k miles, car just out of warranty, and Tesla initially wanted $1k to fix, but eventually fixed for free after I complained.
All in all, I'm thinking to get a different car since I need a car that works. I don't want a non-Tesla EV since the charging options for non-Tesla EVs suck. I'm currently looking at PHEVs. Ironically, I'll probably unload the Tesla for another EV only if/when Tesla opens superchargers up to other EVs.
How much of a loss would you take if you sold your Model X right now? They are not very available new, so I assume you would not loose too much money. Mine has actually gained a bit in value over the last 18 months or so..
I owned a 2016 Model X, and I got the dreaded half-shaft shudder after only 5k miles. When I took it in to the SC for evaluation, the tech driving the car blurted, "Oh yeah, there it is! This happens with all the Model Xs" when moderately accelerating uphill and the car shuddered quite a bit.
Fast-forward 20 minutes, I'm sitting at the desk with the SC rep, and they say, "Yes there was a shudder, but that's normal." That was the 11th -- and final -- issue I had with that car. I traded it in for a Jaguar I-PACE shortly after and never looked back.
Your behavior changed when you got an iPhone and you moved on with your life. Same thing here.
But even if range really isn't a problem, a PHEV makes more sense to me because they are cheaper and make better use of our limited battery supply. A PHEV with 50 miles range will be just about as efficient as a BEV for the vast majority of driving, but it gets by with a much smaller battery pack. We have the battery supply to make nearly every new car a PHEV, but we could only make a small fraction of them BEVs.
TL;DR less range anxiety, more "getting stranded because of unreliable chargers" anxiety
PS: I should add, having 3 small-ish children is definitely the major factor here, were I alone I couldn't care less that I had to wait a few hours for trickle charging, might as well get some work done
PPS: speaking of glitches, the Q4 e-tron lane keep assist is incredibly panicky and has constant mini freakouts whenever something strange happens to the road (e.g. lanes splitting on the motorway, passing parked cars on narrow roads, etc.) -- thankfully it's just annoying (slight jerk and vibration of the steering wheel) and not actually dangerous
I've owned (well, leased) two EVs. Range was definitely something to be closely monitored at all times and trips planned around it, which I classify as an "issue" since I had to worry about it so much.
> Model X ranked dead-last among all cars for reliability, scoring a 5 out of 100.
https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
• for defects that could cause injury/death, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem twice
• for any other defects, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem 4 times
• the vehicle has been 'in the shop' for a total of 30 days (need not be consecutive)
We had a VW that qualified for lemon law relief, and VW was forced to purchase the car back from us, including sales tax. There was a minimal amount that was not refunded, to reflect the month or so that we got to use the car before it started acting up.
1: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-calif...
But they keep piling up, up to ten now.
One friend has received his Model 3 back twice now with the problem not fixed at all. He's resigned to just living with the problem until the service backlogs are lower.
It has been interesting to see how tolerance for these quality issues has waned as the shine of the Tesla brand has started to wear off.
Tesla has expanded outside that market, and to a person who is looking for a more or less reasonable car, that matches other cars in the price bracket, you're likely to hear nothing but good things about Tesla from the usual sources.
And then you get one, and realize that they're failing basic quality control things that literally every other auto maker worked out 20 years or more ago, and their software has all the stability of beta smartphone software.
None of this is new. It's just that anyone who said anything of the sort, or pointed out that you can't have 10x the sales on 1x the service centers, or such, got shouted down as a Tesla-shorting big oil shill for an awfully long time. Now, people who don't really care about Elon or The Plan are discovering that a Tesla is a bit of a crapshoot. Some are fine. Some are lemons. And God help you if you get a lemon, because the service experience (remember, according to the True Believers, dealerships are the spawn of Satan) is horrid.
Its possible to love something for its good qualities and accept the bad.
"With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses."[0]
[0]https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The problem is twofold:
1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary driver assistance.
2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.
No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving.
Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).
Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for...
Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this.
1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on display, and Tesla is an amazing case study here. After deriding those dinosaur, idiot, legacy automakers for their horridly slow, glacial, obsolete factories that mixed humans with robots on the assembly line, instead of being purely robot based and running at sonic velocities... the Model 3 and such are produced on something that's virtually indistinguishable from those "dinosaur" lines. GM, Honda, Toyota... they've all been trying for the "lights out dreadnaught" car factory since the 80s, and have all concluded that it simply doesn't work. It's cheaper, faster, and more reliable to have humans in the loop, and run the line at their pace, than to solve the problems that increasingly look like "full general purpose AI."
2. "A human visual system is just a couple shitty cameras and a neural network. How hard can it be?" The answer is, "Exceedingly hard." The human visual system works at a far better angular resolution in the core than Tesla's system does (the Tesla "narrow" camera has a 4x worse angular resolution than the human eye core, and the human eye is really good at scanning that high resolution core and merging details), and the neural network behind it is an awful lot more complex than anything our computers can emulate. My three year old makes fun of the "green moons" and "red moons" in the sky after showing him the video of a Tesla confusing a low moon for a yellow light, because he can tell the difference between the moon and a traffic light. And I guarantee his visual processing system is capable of an awful lot more than a Tesla, in practical real world situations. I don't trust him to drive anything faster than his Power Wheels, but... well, neither do I trust a Tesla to do that.
A multi-sensor fusion based system has some hope of working with current technology. Vision only? Not a chance.
All we really need is better adaptive cruise control which is what Autopilot and Open pilot is. IMO it works flawlessly, takes the stress out of driving. It's really a solved problem at this point. I'd say 3/4 of all the miles I've driven on my Rav4 have been on Open Pilot.
Uhhhhhhhhhh
Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues.
I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear.
But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
Can you clarify why disrupting the process is hubris? There has been many historical examples of outsiders coming in and improving old processes in many fields. Why is it hubris to disrupt the car manufacturing processes?
2. I can comppletely retool car making,
* from base principals
* because I am very smart (see 1.)
That is hubris
Does not always fail. Usually does. Betting on hubris to fail is probably a good strategy (I reckon - I do not know)
Tesla did disrupt the entire process and where they are now is 5 years ahead of every single major manufacturer in EVs, including Honda. Honda, Toyota, VW, GM are in for an ocean of pain as we transition to EVs and China floods the market with cheap, quality offerings. Their complacency is exactly the wrong kind of hubris and they will be luck to end the decade as major manufacturers.
I got a new X in 2019 and so far it’s had no issues at all.
I certainly salute you for your tenacity with the brand. After I unloaded my 2016 Model X, you couldn't convince me to touch another one of those cars with a 10-foot pole.
Or you could just Tweet that anyone critical of your car is a big oil funded Tesla-shorting planet hating shill.
One gets you most of the other, for an awful lot less actual effort.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125229...
Incidentally, it really bothers me that you play the racism card so easily and casually without evidence. Please stop doing that.
We live in a racist world. You either accept it or be blind to many of the problems of the world.
We have a secondary ICEV and we both hate it and mock it. It is actually one the best ICEVs in its class, but fundamentally, all ICEVs are irredeemably terrible. It needs replacing soon and I've been through every single EV out there considering alternatives, but in the end we have to replace it with a Model Y.
Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best cars.
I have a six year old Corolla. No issues at all. We put gas in it and have tire rotations and regular oil changes.
My Corolla is like my AirPod Pros. It just works, every time, consistently. Personally, I just want a car that has no hassles and is dependable above all else. I’d like a cold A/C on hot days and a good heater on cold days.
I guess my point is - I’d love to drive an electric car and not have to go to the gas pump. But I’m not willing to deal with all the myriad issues I so often hear about from Tesla owners. I’m not interested in paying a premium for some auto maker to alpha, beta, and pre-prod test their product before getting it to modern manufacturing and reliability standards.
One is the cheapest car made by a major manufacturer, and the cheapest trim model. I have no complaints about how it drives, I actually enjoy it. But on very hot days, the AC has trouble keeping up, and an electronic display has been only intermittently functional for some time. Naturally, being a special electronic display, it costs some $600 to replace, so I haven't bothered. On very long drives (5+ hours), it does wear me out more than the second car.
The other is a crossover. It is slightly more comfortable than the hatchback. The AC is definitely powerful enough, even on hot days. It is much more pleasant to drive on long trips, I think primarily due to the lanekeeping and automatic cruise control. My only real complaint is too many controls are on the touchscreen - basically any AC controls other than temperature and fan speed.
When I ask other EV owners, it seems like all they can say are "it's really quiet" and "it has amazing acceleration." But my cars are already very quiet (sometimes I am not sure if they are on) and I never need any more acceleration than I have - I avoid accelerating hard in general, since it wastes gas and I'm sure also battery. And given the problems I do have with my cars, it seems like the average EV is going to be worse - if I don't like touchscreen controls, surely buying a Tesla is not going to make me happy. So what is the factor EVs have that just blows ICEZs away for the average Joe? I just don't get it.
EDIT: I guess another one they frequently mention is "not having to go to the gas station", but a five minute trip once a week isn't really causing me much hardship, especially if I'm going in to buy lottery tickets anyway.
I look at a Tesla as a lower functioning, and obvs from all the comments, much less reliable machine. People love them! Guffaws.
(I have nothing against EVs as a technology: when I can buy a 450 mile range, 10 minute refuel, as reliable as my Prioids and Tundra EV, for a similar price, I will.)
"With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses."[0]
[0]https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
I’m not defending Tesla here, but let’s not pretend the established manufacturers don’t run into safety issues when it comes to the clever software under the hood.
Pffffrt. By what metrics you would measure that aside, it does feel like you've never been into high quality cars. A Mercedes Class S is a veritable massive step up compared to a Tesla, for similar prices. Recent EVs like the Ioniq 5 are very much matching the Teslas in everything
Hands down the best car I have ever had and I have owned Audis, BMWs and other high end cars.
Whenever I have to drive a non Tesla me and my wife just can’t stop laughing at how ridiculous they are…it’s like operating steam engines
Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla
This is my experience talking to everyone I know with a Tesla. Not saying the complaints aren't real, but the internet really does bring out the selection bias when it comes to people having issues with their purchase. If you look at Consumer Reports for most satisfied car purchases, all of the Teslas make the top 10.
https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
They tend to go on about noise, vibration, the awful smell of gas stations, and a variety of other common and tedious complaints. Ok, yes, we get it, you're smug and have to prove to everyone else how amazing your purchase was, but must you write the 500th version of the same article?
Or you can just accept that every vehicle is different, every vehicle has different quirks, wants to be driven/ridden differently, listen to what it tells you, and go from there. Yes, you can flog an Insight around a twisty road on the paddle shifters, but... that's not what the car wants, and it's not very rewarding to try and make it drive like something it isn't.
An EV isn't an ICE isn't a PHEV isn't a hybrid isn't a rotary isn't a...
Even among theoretically identical vehicles, they often enough aren't, after enough miles. I drove buses for a while, and they tended to be purchased in lots - two of this, four of that, etc. Even among the "sister buses," they were different. Some were smoother, some seemed to have more power, some were wired differently. Know the quirks of each bus and you were going to have a fine time. Miss that 947 really benefited from turning off the AC compressor off a stoplight, and you would struggle to keep a schedule on the weekend. But man, that was a sweet cruising evening route bus. On the campus circulators, 926 and 927 were best run in first gear - they were big four cylinders (something like an 8L 4-cylinder) that were really prone to shifting into 2nd, and then getting stuck lugging along barely above idle instead of shifting down to 1st if you were on a bit of a grade. Keep them in first, it was fine on those routes (first was a pretty tall gear on them).
And it goes on. Instead of whining about what a vehicle isn't, enjoy it for what it is, listen to it, drive it how it wants to be driven, and you'll have a good time. It's just not good for clicks.
I just read an article about Fisker following the "Apple model" where they stay lean and outsource all production. Uh, yeah that's great for a $1,000 phone but when I drop 50x that on a rolling death machine I expect quality to be controlled from end to end and kept in house.
[1] https://www.stateofflux.co.uk/ideas-insights/case-studies/to...
they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it
for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways
and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside
tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners
Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point. It's reminiscent of bay area housing. Crap quality, outrageously expensive, and with plenty of people with no other life experiences willing to defend it at a moment's notice.
"I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point."
I'm not sure why you would turn your nose up at people who have different preferences. I guarantee you that there are Tesla buyers who also own other expensive cars at similar price ranges.
I will agree the powertrain and tech (not the god awful screen) are the best in the market at the moment. Maybe it’s just me, but a vehicle needs to cover the basics before anything fancy such as the acceleration will sell it.
for them it was all about getting a cool toy and all the fun that comes with it, rather than getting a car
... and a scarily large number of people who think this is a reasonable proposition.
So does my $1K Open Pilot on a significantly cheaper Rav 4. Also you don't have to put hands on wheel. If you have to put your hands on wheel for adaptive cruise control you might as well just drive the car.
That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for:
- Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change
But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with nearly a month to wait.
The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep loudly with no way to stop it.
Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good. It's just that the quality is awful and service is both overbooked and doesn't actually fix things.
I've never regretted a car purchase more.
PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)