News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by pezzana on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @02:42PM (#29179543)
> Shares of developer Fantasia Holdings (1777.HK) plunged 50% on Wednesday after it said there was no guarantee it would be able to meet its other financial obligations following a missed payment of $205.7 million due on Oct. 4.

Watch the US bond market closely. Today saw a sharp selloff on the 10-year maturity, a favorite "asset" of foreign governments and companies. When those organizations get into trouble, they sell treasuries to raise cash. "Trouble" often comes in the form of dollar-denominated debt which must be serviced in dollars.

As the dollar rises, borrowers of dollar-denominated debt must raise more local currency to buy the dollars to service their loans. That puts further upward pressure on the dollar, distressing foreign usd-debtholders even more. It's called a "short squeeze":

https://www.lynalden.com/global-dollar-short-squeeze/

The entire world (including the US federal government) has taken a short position on the US dollar by assuming obligations requiring them to pay later in dollars. Ask any Ape on WallStreetBets what happens to shorts during a short squeeze, and you'll get the same answer: they get rekt.

The dollar spiked past a key technical level today.

https://www.tradingview.com/chart/?symbol=DXY

In 2020, a similar dynamic took hold, with stocks, bonds, and gold falling in price as the dollar surged. We may not be there yet, but the scramble for dollars in China (and possibly all of Asia) is just starting.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by JamisonM on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:07PM (#29183226)
Absolutely crazy that the top comment on this story is a "USD short squeeze" idea after 5 hours. These amounts, 200 million, 150 million USD.. this is peanuts, a fart in the wind.

PROTIP: Anyone like Lyn Alden that is offering premium stock tips is by definition a fraud, if you can beat the markets you just beat the markets and Scrooge McDuck-it, you don't run a damn newsletter.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by blihp on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:20PM (#29184098)
That's a $150 million payment that they can't make. The concern is how are they going to make the future payments? Their total liabilities are on the order of $300 billion. Fantasia (mentioned in the story) is another China real estate developer in trouble. The concern is that this is the tip of the iceberg.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by fer on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:41AM (#29184795)
> Their total liabilities are on the order of $300 billion

~300 billion is the size of their debt (485 at the end of H1 2021). Their assets are at +2 trillion, +1 trillion in real estate alone.

Their problem is that with their current cash flow they can't pay their debt, ever, and now, they can't even keep up with the interest. But they're still in a position where selling off part of their inventory can offset the debt, and to my knowledge, that's what they've been trying to do.

That is, if their financial statements area real. That's the quid here, their position isn't particularly anomalous, but the market cap sits at 33 billion, very far from their declared assets, meaning the market doesn't believe those statements. Thats 60 to 1, where most REIT sit at around 2 to 1.

Their main problem is the large amount of unfinished homes (read: not producing any income) and you need money to fix that. My guess is that the government will step in to fix that point in particular.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by ButtSpark69 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:03AM (#29184921)
How sure are you their assets are really worth 2T? Isn't that a lot of the question here?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by throwaway2037 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:21AM (#29185339)
You are right to ask that question. Generally, real estate is considered a low liquidity asset. I wonder how much their real estate assets are discounted during buy-side analysis.

From Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergrande_Group), I looked at the source for total assets: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/3333.HK/balance-sheet?p=3333...

At end of 2020: Total assets: 2.3T CNY -> 359B USD (@ 6.40 CNY/USD) Total debt : 0.7T CNY -> 109B USD (@ 6.40 CNY/USD)

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by oarabbus_ on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:54AM (#29185527)
Well, we can be reasonably confident their assets will not be worth $2T if they have to fire sale them
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by _0ffh on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:53AM (#29187362)
As it seems like virtually all buying in this market comes from developers and investors hoping to sell at a higher price later, they'll probably be lucky to get a fraction of that.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by chalst on Thursday November 11, 2021 @08:03AM (#29187435)
Are you giving the book value of their assets? That tends to collapse when the asset holder is forced to sell in a hurry.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by JamisonM on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:56PM (#29195870)
All of which is unrelated to the idea of some sort of /global/ USD short squeeze, which is just a nonsense idea.

Holding debt in another nation's currency involves risks but it is also the case that bond issuers can mitigate that risk with financial tools at the time of borrowing. It is doubly true that the CNY has and still is trading within a narrow band over the life of these debts, currency risks are not a factor in this story in any way.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by Gatsky on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:50AM (#29186270)
This ‘protip’ is quite wrong on many levels. Observe the behaviour of the most successful investors, and you will notice they write books, go on podcasts, talk about their strategies etc all the time. In fact you can’t shut them up. The world’s most successful investor, the biggest ‘Scrooge McDuck’ of them all, has completely public disclosures.

On the contrary, the worst advice comes from people who have no accountability or reputation to worry about.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by MR4D on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:15PM (#29194476)
But they talk about them after the trade. And therein lies the trick.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by m0zg on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:16PM (#29184086)
Lehman Bros was, relatively speaking, also a "fart in the wind" - it all started with $2.8 billion loss (not even default). Things kinda snowballed massively from there though, over the course of a few months to the point where it was a threat to the global financial system. The fear is the same could happen in China as well.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by throwaway2037 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:29AM (#29185383)
Same for Bear Stearns. First hit on Google search for "bear stearns hedge fund losses" gives: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/bear-stearns-collap....

Quote: <<July 17, 2007—In a letter sent to investors, Bear Stearns Asset Management reported that its Bear Stearns High-Grade Structured Credit Fund had lost more than 90% of its value, while the Bear Stearns High-Grade Structured Credit Enhanced Leveraged Fund had lost virtually all of its investor capital. The larger Structured Credit Fund had around $1 billion, while the Enhanced Leveraged Fund, which was less than a year old, had nearly $600 million in investor capital.>>

After the incident, Bear took the bad assets onto their own balance sheet. Shortly thereafter, creditors starting asking hard questions: "What other crap is on your bloated balance sheet?"

That said, the PRC gov't might allow Evergrande to default on their offshore/external/USD debt, but provide a bailout onshore. That seems realistic. During the 2008 GFC, Deutsche had an enormous footprint in the United States (via commercial and investment banking). They got almost nothing from US Fed/Treasury during bailouts. Same for UBS. Why not? They were not American corporations.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by m0zg on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:40AM (#29185814)
Wouldn't that severely damage China's ability to attract foreign capital, though? I mean, they've already made their printer go brrrr to the point where Jerome Powell would blush, so it doesn't seem like they have a ton of flexibility in terms of domestic monetary policy, and therefore bailouts. And nobody outside China is stupid enough to jump on the deck of this particular Titanic. Nobody inside China is, either, but the government can make them jump on, much like US government did with US financial firms in 2008.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @08:06AM (#29187454)
> Wouldn't that severely damage China's ability to attract foreign capital, though?

I kinda get the impression that they want capital for manufacturing rather than property speculation.

Given how important house prices/construction is for their economy and growth, it's gonna be really interesting to see what they do (will they accept negative GDP growth to increase "common prosperity").

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by guiriduro on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:22AM (#29187142)
That says pretty appalling things about Western capitalism in general that it is predicated on government (ie, public) backstops, protected from the market, socialism for the rich/elite, and not available to the little people. Starts to look like the worst of communism, frankly.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rapsey on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:14AM (#29185302)
As JP Morgan said what caused the 1929 stock crash, "someone asked for a dollar".
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by kesselvon on Thursday November 11, 2021 @11:14AM (#29189576)
Lehman was allowed to go bankrupt, which in the UK forced the immediate cessation of operations (in the U.S., the firm can still operate even if its bankrupt). That was the equivalent of shifting to park on a car moving 80 miles an hour, especially as they froze their prime brokerage.

The blow up probably could have been less severe if they smoothed the landing.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by torstenvl on Wednesday November 24, 2021 @09:26PM (#29337627)
That's interesting. What is the expected method to emerge from bankruptcy, or at least protect investors and creditors, if a business must cease operations?

My intuition (and the presumption in the U.S.) is that a market position allows a business to dispose of inventory in normal commercial channels more profitably than auctioning it at wholesale in a Chapter 7-style liquidation. Hence first-day motions in U.S. bankruptcy courts.

(Disclaimer: I worked on the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy but did not represent any U.S. or U.K. subsidiaries.)

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by nipponese on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:27AM (#29185043)
That's a point worth reenforcing. The initial losses were severely compounded by nominal value locked in credit default swaps... which were insured by unbacked policies. There has to be at least one person here that understands the sizes of these derivative markets in China, right?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by dannyw on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:44PM (#29184224)
Nearly every single financial company (including JPM, Morgan Stanley, etc) offer premium stock tips through there analysts...

Lyn Alden's site is a wealth of knowledge but I don't subscribe to any newsletters.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by tcgv on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @11:05PM (#29184310)
> Nearly every single financial company (including JPM, Morgan Stanley, etc) offer premium stock tips through there analysts...

Well, they're expected to do that to maintain their stature as the "lighthouses" of the financial system

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by arcticbull on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:03AM (#29184919)
Not to mention, are they really doing it in good faith? Back in the GFC days, Goldman made headlines for just trading against their clients. Rather, I guess, for saying the quiet part out loud.

> Thomas Mazarakis, who heads Goldman’s fundamental strategies group, told select clients in an email that his unit often provided investment ideas that the firm had already traded on and the firm sometimes took the opposite approach, betting against particular instruments recommended by the group, the Times said.

> “We may trade, and may have existing positions, based on trading ideas before we have discussed those trading ideas with you,” the paper quoted Mazarakis as writing in the email. [1]

Would seem a good way to monetize your audience is to (a) get paid to (b) take positions and then (c) control the narrative around your positions - both publicly and to paying customers to gin the position up.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-goldmansachs-trades/goldm...

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by throwaway2037 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:24AM (#29185356)
Your last sentence is perfect: pithy. This same strategy is, of course, also used by short sellers. Larger hedge funds have a PR team that works to increase media coverage of their short positions. See: Bill Ackman and Herbalife.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by chalst on Thursday November 11, 2021 @08:01AM (#29187419)
> PROTIP: Anyone like Lyn Alden that is offering premium stock tips is by definition a fraud, if you can beat the markets you just beat the markets and Scrooge McDuck-it, you don't run a damn newsletter.

For all I know you are right about Alden's ethics, but the EMH is not baked into the definition of fraud.

In fact, many investors do offer public trading advice: it's common among short sellers to both short their targets and publish analyses explaining why they think their target is overvalued. This is controversial, but if it is clear to receivers of the advice that the advice comes from a short-seller whose positions are known, then I do not regard it as particularly unethical.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hourislate on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:57PM (#29183589)
I think the bigger implication here is that Evergrande may roll over and cause a shit tsunami.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by Jansen312 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:14PM (#29183677)
Official or public available info on those Chinese debts are a couple hundred mils. Yes these are peanuts. But unofficial numbers are several magnitude higher even extremely likely Chinese authority unaware of (2008 showed that US government had no clue how bad it was back then which even AIG almost gone). It is basically the iceberg sinking Titanic in the remaking now on Chinese financial front. Also, when USD start to rise, regional currencies tend to slide...millions and millions middle class people will participate to buy USD as the new inflation hedger like gold (which will be underperforming during the short sequeeze situation). The only thing that will stop this is Chinese government printing money more than Barry did in his terms (basically spreading those debts indirectly pay by citizens).
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by impendingchange on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:23PM (#29184117)
Or, perhaps the Chinese government revalues gold at $10k.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by qu4ku on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:09PM (#29191019)
> Anyone like Lyn Alden that is offering premium stock tips is by definition a fraud

I've been reading everything I could on economy and finance in my early twenties and Lyn Alden blog is the only thing I needed then and wasn't available. She is pure gold — I know no one that is able to explain complex topics in this context with such clarity.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by greesil on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:46AM (#29184828)
The fart before the storm, perhaps.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by vmurthy on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:01AM (#29184578)
>Anyone like Lyn Alden that is offering premium stock tips is by definition a fraud

Hmmm , depends on what these "tips" entail right? What if another website offers long term hold advice via a newsletter and charges you for it? As a matter of fact, I do subscribe to one in India (no , I am not going to publicise it. DM me if you want to know) where the holding periods are anywhere between 2yrs to 5 yrs. There are disclosures that say whether the stock analyst holds the stock/bond etc.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hndamien on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:24PM (#29184126)
It really isn't hard to beat the markets, just buy Bitcoin.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by blippage on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:03AM (#29185977)
This investing tip from UK fund manager Terry Smith: it's easy to beat the market, just buy every company in the index except for the airlines.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by HFguy on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:17PM (#29180091)
Rates went up because of the release of the inflation data. It wasn’t anything to do with what you are mentioning.

Also, while the dynamic you describe is real (1) the mechanics are not similar to an equity short squeeze , not a good analogy and (2) unlikely this type of pressure comes from China. They need to hold/buy treasuries to manage their currency (ie keep it weak). If they don’t, their export competitiveness suffers which is last thing that gov will allow. They have other ways of managing the situation.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by baq on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:00PM (#29180713)
the fed are clowns. inflation data should have been priced in as anybody worth their salt (or indeed anybody doing any kind of shopping, which is everyone) knew that inflation would print above expectations, especially fed's. today's reaction was... panic of uninformed volume?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by HFguy on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:49PM (#29181395)
It wasn’t priced in or the market would not have moved.

“everyone knew that Inflation would be above expectations” you should think about this more.

Regardless, why does any of this make the feds clowns?

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by baq on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:25AM (#29186448)
Because I’ve been positioned in the market for inflation since February. If I could figure that out, what were they doing?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by ethbr0 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:41PM (#29181293)
The Fed never said they weren't expecting inflation: they said they expected any inflation to be transitory (e.g. to return to expected levels by the end of 2022/23).

So, we'll see.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by anm89 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:59PM (#29182146)
I would say that is still not a very credible claim.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by riggins on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:33PM (#29180321)
Name 1 example of a currency crisis where the debtor nation had debt denominated in their own currency.

I'll save you the time. There are no examples.

Every currency crisis has debt denominated in a foreign currency. - Germany in the 1930 (WW1 reparations were gold marks) - Argetina (foreign borrow and currency peg to USD). - Thailand. - Turkey (now, borrowed in Euro).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations "Germany agreed to pay reparations of 132 billion gold marks"

https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/asian-financial... "Heavy foreign borrowing, "

https://economics.rabobank.com/publications/2013/august/the-... "Argentina’s hard currency peg to the US Dollar, pro-cyclical fiscal policies and extensive foreign borrowing"

If you're going claim a coming currency crisis, test that assumption against the historical record at your earliest convenience.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hogFeast on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:15PM (#29182283)
It depends what you mean by currency crisis.

But yes, it has happened. Russia 1998 is the most well-known example. Everyone believed that because Russia could issue GKOs in RUB, they wouldn't blow up like Asia...they did. This also happened, to a large extent, in Mexico in 1994 (Mexico actually issued tesobonos, they were domestic currency denominated but shifted the currency risk to taxpayers, they were quite a security).

The reason why is fairly simple: it doesn't matter if the debt is denominated in domestic or not, because people buy the bonds and then hedge their currency exposure which leads (eventually) to the domestic banking system having the same synthetic position as if your debt was denominated in a foreign currency.

The slight issue with historical examples is that the situation is correlated to high levels of financial globalization, which largely didn't happen until the 90s. But because something has never happened, doesn't mean it is impossible.

The point is confused though. The causes of currency crises are changes in capital flows. That is really just saying: the reason why currencies fall is because people sell. They don't really need some "explanation", they definitely contra-indicate with stuff like domestic currency debt...but there is no universal theory possible beyond: people sold the currency (and so currency crises have happened with capital outflows for some exogenous reason, war, etc.).

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by mikeyouse on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:05PM (#29182697)
In 1998, Russia was propping up their currency by buying USD and Eurobonds at staggering rates.. The crisis wasn't due to anything to do what the US is facing but not being able to pay their foreign creditors, not being able to call the Soviet-era debt back from debtors, and owing the IMF billions of dollars they couldn't repay.

Russia wouldn't have had a currency collapse if they had a floating currency to begin with;

> After reviewing the three generations of currency crisis models, we conclude that four key ingredients can trigger a crisis: a fixed exchange rate, fiscal deficits and debt, the conduct of monetary policy, and expectations of impending default.

https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/revie...

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hogFeast on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:40PM (#29183005)
Correct, four things can trigger a crisis...in addition to many other things.

And that occurred after the currency crisis had started (the debt swap into Eurobonds was because of the GKOs). I am not sure what the US has to do with it. I am not sure what "Soviet-era debt" has to do with it (that debt was very soft, was rolled over multiple times in the early 90s, and wasn't related to Russia's problems). I am not sure what the IMF has to do with it (the IMF came in after it started...that is why the IMF came in).

Yes, it would have...that is self-evident. The reason the peg collapsed was because the free market/floating rate was lower. The only purpose of the peg is to stop the currency going down (again, this is a weird, self-evident proof...saying that the currency wouldn't have collapsed if they had a floating rate makes no sense, it would have collapsed faster).

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by mikeyouse on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:51PM (#29183088)
> I am not sure what "Soviet-era debt" has to do with it (that debt was very soft, was rolled over multiple times in the early 90s, and wasn't related to Russia's problems).

A large portion of their foreign denominated debt was from the Soviet era -- just a few years prior to 1998 they committed to repaying nearly $100 billion of that old debt. Russia was accepted into the "Paris Club" based on a valuation of their sovereign assets -- 1/4 of which were loans due to them from the Soviet era from Cuba/Vietnam and other satellite countries that had no capability to repay those loans. So the Soviet Era debt was a big portion of their liability and made up a substantial portion of their assets.

None of these things are remotely similar to the US situation of almost universally US debt denominated in USD. So I think GP is spot on when they say there's 0 chance of a currency crisis.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by beambot on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:38PM (#29180398)
GP agrees with you: They're saying the currency crisis starting in Asia is USD-denominated (the international bonds in particular), which is creating a positive feedback loop when USD-RMB exchange rates spike. They're saying you might see this manifest as big movements in bond redemptions or sales as people scramble to secure USD.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by riggins on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:54PM (#29180619)
I assume you mean OP?

> The entire world (including the US federal government) has taken a short position on the US dollar

I read this as a prediction of some type of crisis.

Anyway, wrt the US Federal Government, having government debt is not that same as having a short position. For one, the US Fed govt's revenue (i.e. tax collection) is denominated in the same USD as the debt. So if USD goes up, tax collection go up.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by adregan on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:48PM (#29182547)
> I assume you mean OP?

"GP = grand parent, i.e. the post that the post-your're-replying-to was replying to"

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8363625

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rsync on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:38PM (#29182991)
"I read this as a prediction of some type of crisis."

I think your parent was suggesting that the behavior of the entire world is effectively a short-dollar position - whether they intended it to be or not.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by legulere on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:43AM (#29186553)
> So if USD goes up, tax collection go up

Currencies going up usually leads to a reduction of exports which subsequently leads to an economic downturn, which leads to less taxes.

Apart from that, mass sell offs of government debt leads to increasing interest rates. You can buy that off with quantitative easing but probably that has limits too.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by resource0x on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:44PM (#29184221)
If US prints 100 trillion dollars tomorrow (debt fully monetized by Federal Reserve), won't it cause a currency crisis?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by Y_Y on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:17PM (#29193295)
Because of the trillions of dollars they'd have to spend on ink refill cartridges?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by boplicity on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:12PM (#29180014)
> The dollar spiked past a key technical level today.

I don't know much about "technical" forex trading, but I can say that USD/CNY didn't really change today, neither did USD/CAD, or USD/GBP. Everything is around where it's been over the past few weeks. Are you saying the real exchange rates will significantly change soon?

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by baybal2 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:27PM (#29180236)
Short term USD/CNY is clamped by Chinese government currency purchases.

People will only notice when China decides its FX is running low

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by timomax2 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:27PM (#29299910)
Hmmm. Chinese currency is fundementally undervalue though. I don't think this "running low" can happen. Chinese business and gov must have vast USD assets.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by redisman on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:10AM (#29184638)
TA is tarot for finance bros.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by boplicity on Thursday November 11, 2021 @10:52AM (#29189266)
Turns out that USD is getting stronger today, except, of course, against CNY. Interesting.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by xxpor on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:32PM (#29180303)
No comment on the content of the lynalden.com post (haven't read the entire thing yet), but for the love of pete, blog writers, please make sure you put a date on your posts. Especially when you're discussing something that involves current events.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by kipchak on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:53PM (#29180605)
I think she might just have forgotten to date this one? Most other articles back to 2020 seem to have publish dates. Either way this one seems to be from April 2020.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by ethbr0 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:55PM (#29181458)
It does seem to be a trend in less-than-professional blogs.

Although I'd assume, maybe it helps with traffic? Presumably people would be more interested in reading a previous financial post, if they didn't know it was 2 years old.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by jessaustin on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:15PM (#29183296)
The "best" policy is for content to start out dated and then simply erase the dates as it gets older.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by joe_guy on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:56PM (#29183581)
An SEO scam I see some sites run is change it to an "updated at"
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rwmj on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @02:50PM (#29179671)
Is your theory that the US government will run out of dollars? How do you imagine that will happen - a paper shortage?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by throwaway09223 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:08PM (#29179951)
Paper money makes up only about 10% of the total money supply. The vast majority of USD is just represented by data in a ledger.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by guiriduro on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:10PM (#29179981)
Which is an order of magnitude easier to come by, proving OP's point.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by codyb on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:00PM (#29179833)
The system isn't that simple?

The US Government sells treasuries and bonds to raise dollars. These have to be approved by congress, which is why every so often you'll hear about government shutdowns, because, yes, if for whatever reason, the US Congress doesn't pass a debt ceiling lift, the US Treasury will not have enough money to run things anymore.

Then there's the Federal Reserve, which loans dollars to banks to create liquidity and velocity in the monetary system depending on certain conditions (Primarily inflation and unemployment I believe).

(Presumably there's a fair amount more to it than that as well).

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by scoopertrooper on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:17PM (#29180093)
The real fun begins when the fed starts buying treasuries.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by zeusk on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:30PM (#29190591)
What happens then? Don't they already do that?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @02:54PM (#29179733)
Digits overflow would be a more appropriate concern
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by zhdc1 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:13PM (#29180029)
I think the OP is saying that you can have a situation where the short term demand for dollars outstrips the supply available at that given time (think in terms of hours or days). This could lead to a sharp but short increase in the value of the dollar, since there's only a limited, albeit extremely large, amount available on the market at any given time.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hangonhn on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:32PM (#29180304)
The bank needing the currency asks the central bank for the extra currency and it’s simply a number in a “database” somewhere. It can be done rather quickly.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by chii on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @11:19PM (#29184384)
it's not the bank, but the borrowers who need the currency.

So an increase in borrowing from various parties pushes the interest rate higher (the banks would want to charge as high an interest as possible, but no higher than what would make the client move to a different bank for the loan).

The central bank could potentially alleviate and increase borrowing without interest rate hikes by allowing the banks themselves to obtain funds from CB at a lower interest (than another bank), and the competition between banks would push the interest rate back down.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by version_five on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:19PM (#29181711)
The entire value of the currency is based on supply and demand, whether the gp is correct in their prediction, increased demand relative to supply is the defining mechanism of how a currency's value would increase.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by quickthrower2 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:29PM (#29181124)
I take the post as the US dollar becoming more scarce but not running out.

If OP is right I don’t see the federal reserve acting to bail out China.

They might happen to do QE for another reason but not to help out other countries with their problems.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by pishpash on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:46PM (#29181999)
As the bank of the world's reserve currency the Fed is always implicitly running a world bank. The transmission mechanism is for foreign currency to depreciate against USD which causes US domestic financial conditions to tighten, and the Fed would then have to loosen.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by yaacov on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:06PM (#29179926)
Are you predicting large scale deflation? That’s the opposite of what we’re seeing now, but if it happens the fed can fix it by just printing money.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by jen729w on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:12PM (#29180018)
I’m far from an expert, but can the US Fed really print more money? Didn’t I hear that something like 30% of the USD in circulation today didn’t exist at the start of 2020?

It has to stop somewhere. Doesn’t it? (Genuine question!)

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by yaacov on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:15PM (#29180056)
The limiting factor is inflation!

If we get massive deflation from a “dollar short squeeze” (which I don’t actually think is likely but it’s what OP was suggesting) that means we need more inflation, which printing money would produce.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by majormajor on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:47PM (#29181375)
Printing money doesn't necessarily create inflation if it doesn't go into circulation.

My understanding is that "printing money" with a jobs program would be more effective at stimulating spending that, say, "printing money" with cheap interest rates (which might just mostly ultimately go into people's bank accounts as they sell assets to people borrowing the cheap money).

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by mym1990 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:08PM (#29180830)
This is just treating a symptom, and not the underlying cause(whatever that may be).
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by seoaeu on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:33PM (#29182431)
When the symptom is having too much money to spend, it isn't clear that you want to "treat" the cause in the first place!
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rossdavidh on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:25PM (#29180198)
Well, it doesn't _have_ to, ask Zimbabweans. But there are real reasons they would not want to print forever.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by quickthrower2 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:25PM (#29181067)
QE and printing are different though
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hndamien on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:25PM (#29184131)
Not in substance.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by sumedh on Thursday November 11, 2021 @05:31AM (#29186494)
What is the difference?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by quickthrower2 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @04:58AM (#29216319)
QE injects money via purchase of bonds / assets.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by polyomino on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:16PM (#29180083)
Technically it doesn't stop, but they are optimizing a complex system, and want to mitigate negative effects on their measures.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by JanisL on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:29PM (#29184153)
Generally speaking the vast majority of money is created by the private sector and not the government. For the Fed to be able to "fix" this by printing more money would already represent a large systematic change. This isn't impossible but fending off a deflationary shock is far more complex than people tend to assume, I think in part because of underlying assumptions that the majority of monetary creation is done by the government when in fact that may not be the case.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by Geee on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:04PM (#29182682)
That's exactly why they're printing so much money. Deflation would cause a deflation spiral - i.e. a short squeeze on the dollar. They can keep doing it, but it's basically a mass-scale confiscation of assets from people. Not sure if that's the goal.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by IAmGraydon on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:19PM (#29182827)
Apparently in the age of WSB apes, everything is a “short squeeze”. Even GME wasn’t a short squeeze (the SEC report clearly presents irrefutable evidence) and neither is deflation.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by yaacov on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:13PM (#29183270)
Why not just aim for 2% inflation like normal?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by whatever1 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:13PM (#29180026)
The US can keep issuing dollars for as long as they like. And you will buy these pieces of paper because they are backed by the US Military, the US Air Force and the US Navy.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by darawk on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:14PM (#29180041)
They can keep issuing them. They will not have the same value, though.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by whatever1 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:21PM (#29180152)
No this rule does not apply in the US.

The US has printed 20% of all dollars ever existed since 2020. Check the exchange rates with any other currency, EUR, British sterling, Chinese RMB. Did it become cheaper? Of course not.

We will always buy USD, because it has as a collateral 8billion lives.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by leppr on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:26AM (#29185370)
The reason it hasn't fallen against those other currencies is that the other currencies' supplies have increased more during this period. The printing was global, and the US not a leader on it.

Against everything else than other unlimited supply currencies, fiat money has fallen dramatically. It's a simple fact, not an endorsement of anything.

Everyone knows the basic mechanics of supply and demand on price, but somehow when it comes to fiat money, many manage to swap common sense with a number of convoluted theories.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by whatever1 on Friday November 12, 2021 @09:27PM (#29206843)
You are plain wrong.

Check the most widely accepted scarce commodity: gold. Gold/USD prices are now at the level they were in 2012.

Now if your argument is based on the USD price of Shiba Inu, well I have news for you.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by leppr on Friday November 12, 2021 @10:42PM (#29207176)
You're cherry picking the top of the previous inflation scare-fueled gold bullrun (it's up 7x since the year 2000), and the one asset that's heavily manipulated to the downside (demonstrated by the huge premiums in physical delivery during the GME mania which weren't arbitraged away).

Convenient straw man to try and classify anyone exposing the intentionality behind today's inflation levels as a crypto shill. Almost all assets have exploded in fiat values since the start of Covid printing, not just crypto. Supply chain issues didn't affect Rolex watches and metropolis housing markets, money printing, QE and low interest rates did.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by xwdv on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:24PM (#29181061)
We buy USD because its long term existence is practically guaranteed by the power of its military.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by ethbr0 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:17PM (#29181690)
The world buys dollars because it needs them to fulfill oil and other commodity contracts, that are priced in dollars, which are then typically reinvested in US Treasuries by commodity exporters (because why not?).

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/petrodollars.asp

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-05-30/the-untol...

If a country wanted to not buy dollars, here's how that would go.

No Dollars: "Hi, we'd like some oil."

Oil Producer: "Great, here's how much that contract is in dollars."

No Dollars: "How much would it be in my local currency?"

Oil Producer: "Well, you see, we don't really quote in other currencies..."

No Dollars: "Fine, I'll find someone who will."

Middle Person: "I heard you're looking to buy oil with Pentali Marcograms?"

No Dollars: "Sure am, what price will you give me?"

Middle Person: "10% over the exchange rate between Pentali Marcograms and US dollars. You know oil producers trade in dollars, right?"

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rsj_hn on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:30PM (#29181840)
> 10% over the exchange rate between Pentali Marcograms and US dollars. You know oil producers trade in dollars, right?"

You are off by three orders of magnitude, which is pretty amazing.

Forex markets have incredibly tight spreads measured in pips, say 1-4 pips, where 1 pip = 0.0001.

The reason why dollars are important is that people store the results of their oil sales in USD assets. What a good is purchased with means nothing. Where you store the proceeds of the sale is what counts.

This goes to that oh-so-tired phrase 'petrodollar', which many autodidacts misuse to signal a lack of understanding of both forex markets and oil economics. What "petrodollars" means is the dollar holdings that oil exporting states maintain. It does not refer to the currency oil is purchased in. It comes from eurodollar, which signifies dollar holdings in Europe, and not the purchasing of European goods with dollars.

Once we get that definition right, we understand it as a synecdoche for US hegemony in reserve currencies -- e.g. where foreign central banks store their wealth. The actual currency oil is priced in - or anything is priced in - means nothing. What is the point of saving a pip in the forex markets if you are going to be losing .1% in bid/ask spreads when you try to store your wealth in an illiquid bond market? No one -- absolutely no one - optimizes for reducing forex costs when deciding in which nation to park their wealth. They are much more concerned with questions like "Is it legal for me to purchase these bonds? will my wealth be confiscated in the future? What kind of fees do I pay when I buy these bonds?"

The reason the world wants to store their wealth as dollar assets is because the US has a reputation for openness to foreign investment, rule of law, political stability, upholding foreign investor rights, and amazingly deep capital markets that can absorb large foreign inflows with very low spreads. So the bid/ask spread when trying purchase a few billion worth of U.S. bonds is much more important to explaining US financial hegemony than what some random country demands as payment.

I think the no. 1 reason why people get this all wrong is they still want to think we live in a world of specie flows. But there are no bearer assets in international trade - you can't take it with you back home. Your foreign trade profits are going to be stored in some custodial account in some other country. So trusting that country is a big deal. People who think trade is conducted with gold nuggets don't see this custodial account problem, and that's why they don't understand why the U.S. is a global reserve currency. That's when all sorts of conspiracy theories about oil sales, or aircraft carriers, come into play as they try to understand the U.S. role using the ideas they are comfortable with.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by ethbr0 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:01PM (#29182666)
If we're talking about a country that's attempting to (or has no choice but to) cut USD out of its foreign trading, I don't think we're talking about a standard, highly-liquid currency pair.

And what currency a good is purchased in absolutely means something!

Your claim is that people store the proceeds of sales in dollars because of the trust factors, volume, and tight spreads. But I'd say that 2/3 of those (volume and tight spreads) are consequences of its utility and use as an international settling currency. Catch 22.

Yet are those things worth enough that international exporters would continue to trade in / hold in (effectively the same, if we collapse the goods trader and forex trader into a single entity) if the dollar ran 5% inflation and low central bank rates for years?

I suppose we'll see, but that's an atypical situation in the last 50 years of pure fiat international finance.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by rsj_hn on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:27PM (#29182901)
> If we're talking about a country that's attempting to (or has no choice but to) cut USD out of its foreign trading

For some small country -- and it would need to be a small country, like Sierra Leone, that cannot access the Forex markets, then they need foreign reserves ahead of time. This is true. But if they don't want to hold their reserves as USD they can hold them in EUR or YEN if they like, and then when they need to buy oil, they sell the EUR for USD and buy oil with USD.

While the USD is the largest foreign reserve, it's like 60%, there is also EUR, British Pound, Yen, and some other currencies that are ubiquitous enough for Sierra Leone to hold. These can readily be sold on the spot for whatever a nation wants as payment.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/the-....

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by edem on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:03AM (#29185594)
And if you want to sell your oil in another currency, then you're Saddam and you're fucked. By the US.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by phist_mcgee on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:00AM (#29185947)
And the marines and coast guard too!
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by roody15 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:23PM (#29184122)
Are you sure? The US military doesn’t look to be at its peak. Despite its massive budget China’s military rise and the return of Russian military power might be changing the US’s role as the worlds only military super power.

We may spend 10 times more than any other nation on our military … but due to bureaucracy and other inefficiencies our spending doesn’t quite get the same bang for its buck if you will.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by asdff on Thursday November 11, 2021 @12:58AM (#29184902)
US has spent the last 20 years testing technology in a real theater. China shoots at props in the desert. Russia can't afford to even play this game.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by roody15 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:46AM (#29187301)
Recent history would suggest otherwise.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by johnny22 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:37PM (#29195755)
there is no recent history of conventional warfare. It's all guerilla stuff.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by SilasX on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:34PM (#29180347)
And yet, a 1.56% yield for ten years (below its 18 month high) while inflation just hit 5.4%[0] doesn’t feel like a big selloff.

[0] or 6.2 or whatever depending on what version you use.

Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by TheCoelacanth on Thursday November 11, 2021 @10:20AM (#29188756)
How can the "entire world" have a short position on USD? Who is taking the other side of the position? Is there someone outside of the world lending out money?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by SubiculumCode on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:08PM (#29182214)
Breaking the Ichimoku cloud!
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hogFeast on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:03PM (#29182181)
Chinese state banks have substantial dollar deposits (it is largely state banks that are lending to companies like Evergrande offshore). The PBOC stopped issuing notes (and sterilising the dollar inflow) years ago, and onshore dollar deposits are above $1tn. A lot of the stuff you read about this online is exceptionally misleading (I have no idea why there is this cottage industry of "economic experts" who don't understand economics...it is parallel to the gold bug industry, it is very weird).
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by knowmylimits on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:15PM (#29183291)
What do you mean that they stopped issuing notes. China expands their money supply almost as much by percentage compared to the US.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa... by hogFeast on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:25PM (#29183361)
Domestic banks were not allowed to hold USD deposits (because that would have meant export earnings leaked into the Chinese money supply and the RMB would have risen), so when an exporter deposited earnings with them, they would take the dollars to the PBOC who would issue them with an interest-bearing note.

Around 2017/18, the PBOC stopped doing this and allowed domestic banks to retain and invest the dollar earnings that exporters deposited. China's money supply is not directly related to the US money supply. China's capital account is still closed. All that has changed is that the onshore dollar market has increased (the PBOC retains a huge amount of control over lending decisions, Chinese state banks are not investing in US markets, it is being retained in China).