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Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mongol on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:18AM (#28592124)
I am shaking my head. Is this the future we are entering? Drones delivering coffee? Super-annoying sound to further drown any hope of tranquility in the mornings. There are certainly many meaningful uses of drones, but delivering coffee is not one of them.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by loudmax on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:31AM (#28593101)
To be clear, the issue here is noise pollution, right? If the deliveries were silent, we generally wouldn't care how our neighbors were getting their coffee.

I think the distinction is important because that points us in the direction of the type of policy we want to focus on. We shouldn't aim for laws to ban drone delivery. Instead we should have rules to limit the amount of noise you can make in residential areas.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by bittercynic on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:11PM (#28595389)
Noise pollution is one issue, but the loss of privacy is another. These must have cameras on board, and I'd prefer Alphabet/Amazon/whoever not be flying cameras over my yard all the time.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Loughla on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:49PM (#28596561)
This is it right here. The 'no expectation of privacy in public' mantra is increasingly extending into places that I absolutely have an expectation of privacy.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mirekrusin on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:47PM (#28598794)
Time to breed some pet ravens in the yard.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by CodeWriter23 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:16PM (#28600255)
A Conspiracy, eh?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by original_idea on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @02:31AM (#28602525)
Crowspiracy?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by original_idea on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @02:31AM (#28602523)
So... Murder?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mirekrusin on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:46AM (#28603148)
Natural disassembler.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by xanth on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:10PM (#28599677)
It'd be continued progression of the services that are already on offer[1]. And I don't see aus enacting any legislation to curb this sort off cooperate surveillance without a massive shift in voters general apathy towards their privacy.

[1] https://www.nearmap.com/au/en

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by jen729w on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:26PM (#28600327)
Not necessarily. Unless you live somewhere with a thriving wild bird population – like Canberra – you wouldn't understand the impact that these things might have on birds.

I live on the outskirts of the centre of Canberra (which, as a reminder, is the capital of Australia). The trees are teeming with birds this time of year. We have a family of Australian magpies raising their young in the tree directly opposite us. It's magnificent to watch. They'll often come and say hello and we're hoping they'll introduce the young to us one day.

Regular drone traffic would be an enormous disruption. Magpies swoop anything they see to be a threat. I already see how much effort it is to forage and feed 3 young. Spending extra time trying to ward off a drone because someone can't be arsed going for a walk and getting a coffee (or whatever) ... ridiculous.

I haven't seen a drone here but if they start to become a thing I'll join whatever movement is advocating for their banning.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by troyvit on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:54AM (#28594448)
Maybe the issue is people getting off their butts and making some coffee. We're turning into a species that's so fat and lazy that we don't even want to go to the store anymore to get our empty calories.

Maybe on paper silent drone deliveries are a great idea for people who can't get out of their homes but even then what we're doing is removing yet another chance for them to interact directly with another human being.

So I dunno. What actually is a positive use for drone delivery?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by veidr on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:49AM (#28595138)
No doubt some fat and lazy people appreciate coffee delivery, but I think probably a lot of slim, highly motivated and productive people do as well. (Also, surely, a few serial killers and pedophiles.)

Adequate human interaction (modulo the ongoing pandemic) is indeed important (I think, at least for most people), but a wide swath of people probably have an overabundance of it, and wouldn't benefit from the additional interactions involved with physically going get their own coffee from some human in a coffee-vending establishment.

The positive use for drone delivery is the same for any other delivery service. The pros and cons compared to human delivery, animal delivery, wheeled robot delivery, etc. are debatable.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by gpt5 on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:09AM (#28594627)
Why don’t you trust people to do other “important” things with the time they saved making food or coffee?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Voloskaya on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:46AM (#28595090)
Because we all very well know it's overwhelmingly not the case.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by nsonha on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:10PM (#28598334)
You know that, I dont
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by wavefunction on Monday September 20, 2021 @03:01PM (#28597427)
Personally, it's because I know other people. Having gone through artificial panics and unreasonable demand-based shortages based entirely on fear I know that my fellow human being is often irrational, selfish and short-sighted when left to their own devices. The _only_ solution to resolving those periods of irrationality I experienced were limits placed on their behavior like rationing of gasoline or toilet-paper or water or etc.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by exporectomy on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:27PM (#28599852)
Another solution is to not worry about it. Rational people will have enough toilet paper to survive the shortages caused by panic buying of irrational people. You did have enough toilet paper, didn't you? Or were you short-sightedly assuming the shops would always have what you wanted when you wanted it?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by speed_spread on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:44PM (#28599997)
If you don't have time to make coffee or go grab one, you're overspecializing and not working for the same humanity as I am. Your work output is never worth _that_ much. Go out, breathe in, take the time to accept time constraints of the physical world.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ta3453737 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:53AM (#28603179)
I can think of a few, but that was my first thought as well, how hard is it to make a nice cup of coffee at home? A semi-decent espresso machine and it'll be better than a tepid drone-delivered one any time, long as you have the coffee grounds/beans.

I'd probably use it for times I've run out of something essential I don't have at home though, if its quick enough. Tobacco after a few beers and not wanting to drive, exotic spices I can't find locally assuming the drone can fly far enough to other places, and also assuming its more environmentally friendly than getting in the car and burning petrol.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by burkaman on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:09AM (#28593385)
Noise pollution, disturbing the wildlife, light pollution at night, inevitable accidents.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by blacksmith_tb on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:26AM (#28594834)
All legitimate concerns, but presumably delivery trucks / lorries are guilty of all of those right now? I would be unhappy if drone delivery made things worse, but there's also the possibility it could make them better (I'd rather be hit by a drone than a truck, for example).
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by gambler on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:48PM (#28595836)
As a reminder, 6 questions about technology outlined by Neil Postman:

What is the problem to which this technology is a solution for?

Whose problem is it?

What new problems might be created by solving the original problem?

Which people and what institutions will be most seriously harmed by this new technology?

What sort of people and institutions gain special economic and political power from this new technology?

What changes in language are being forced by these new technologies?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by burkaman on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:40AM (#28594996)
Yes, but I'm thinking about what happens if a single UPS truck delivering 500 packages is replaced with 500 individual drone trips. One drone is probably better than one truck, but that's not the right tradeoff to consider.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mattmanser on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:34PM (#28595651)
The laws around noise pollution are surprisingly pathetic here in the UK, I imagine almost all countries are too.

It's perfectly legal to deconstruct scaffolding, with power tools and chucking metal poles in the back of the van at 8am on a Sunday morning for example. Right next to multiple residential block of flats with hundreds of residents.

And the number one issue if you poll residents of almost any large town is usually noise issues.

If you want to see one of the big disconnects between government and the people, it's a big one.

Saying it's already an issue that's under legislated doesn't mean we should allow it to get worse.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by jfk13 on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:51PM (#28597327)
That sounds like a failure on the part of whatever authority licensed the scaffolding work.

Picking one from a quick search: Greenwich, for example, says that "Noisy work is prohibited on Sundays and bank holidays", and explicitly mentions "Erecting and dismantling of scaffolding" in its examples of "noisy work".

(https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/200205/pollution_and_...)

Presumably other authorities may have different rules, and they may or may not be effectively enforced. But in principle, at least, it's not a free-for-all.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by patall on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:59PM (#28598933)
In Germany, they are not that pathetic. You can theoretically be fined upto 50.000€ for mowing on Sundays. The two days before Easter, even dancing is forbidden in many federal states.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by nsonha on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:13PM (#28598371)
My neighbor mows the lawn really early every Sunday. I don't think I can do anything about it.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by JoshTko on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:42PM (#28595749)
Delivery trucks aren't flying over back yards.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Hoasi on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:43AM (#28595046)
> Noise pollution, disturbing the wildlife, light pollution at night, inevitable accidents.

Don't forget ridiculousness. That raven knows, and we should all be thankful for birds leading the protest.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by amelius on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:06PM (#28598290)
Also: how much power do they consume? Probably more than a truck if you amortize over multiple packages, since the poor thing has to fight gravity all the time.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by kragen on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:19PM (#28599775)
A truck weighs three tonnes; a quadcopter weighs 3 kg. You can't amortize coffee delivery over very many packages because you have to deliver the coffee within a few minutes after it's ready; otherwise it gets cold.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by amelius on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @02:57AM (#28602639)
You can brew coffee in the back of a truck.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by sbierwagen on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @02:02AM (#28613489)
There was a startup called Zume whose pitch was trucks that would bake pizza while driving to the customer for the absolutely maximally fresh pie.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-13/inside-th...

Spoilers: that's hard to do.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by kragen on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @02:15AM (#28613565)
It works okay if you cook while parked. But coffee might be more forgiving.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by kragen on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:29PM (#28612179)
Driving an entire coffee shop around to the house of whoever wants a coffee seems guaranteed to use much more energy than airlifting just the coffee itself.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mongol on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:30AM (#28594884)
Yes or just general disorder. If drones are delivering coffee, then we can expect to see 100s of drones in the sky at any time, at least further down the road. Is that progress of the better kind, or would we not at least want to discuss the pros and cons before we are there?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by potatochup on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:44PM (#28600002)
Yeah, I think noise pollution is the most egregious aspect. In my neighbourhood, there is one main thoroughfare that you can drive 50kph/35mph on, and all the remaining roads are intentionally narrow and uncontrolled, so traffic is naturally limited to around ~30kph/20mph. If you move into a place on the main road, you are implicitly accepting the noise that comes with faster moving traffic. Otherwise you have a reasonable expectation of quiet, especially because at 30kph road noise is quite low, so quiet vehicles like EVs/hybrids are almost silent. Drones that make noise everywhere will break those expectations.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by cabalamat on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:23AM (#28593514)
> To be clear, the issue here is noise pollution, right?

That's one, another is how difficult is it to make a cup of coffee in your kitchen?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by caf on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:28AM (#28593548)
Shall we start policing exactly what you're allowed to order through Uber Eats? No sandwiches, but a croissant is OK? What if I get a coffee with my croissant, is that allowed?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by bagacrap on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:12AM (#28593962)
Coffee is mostly water and we already have far more efficient ways of delivering water to the home, so yes, it seems incredibly wasteful to me to switch from plumbing to drones.

I would also be happy banning k cups fwiw.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by troyvit on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:58AM (#28594503)
Policing? Nah. Mocking? Sure!
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mikem170 on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:29PM (#28600728)
Care should probably be taken when externalizing the costs. For example, the noise of drones (something new) versus the noise of roads (something that already exists). The people who didn't order the coffee have to listen to the noise. One could argue that this is unfair.

I'm not sure how the externalities work out in this case, but it might be something to keep an eye on.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Lamad123 on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:42AM (#28594306)
2% anti-spillage fee! 3% thermal imballance fee!
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mdoms on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:35PM (#28597156)
Yes absolutely. Personal food delivery is a scourge. Perhaps we should be policing "no one-off personal meal delivery".
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ravendroneguy on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:03AM (#28592852)
Mate we have been in lockdown for a month, covid exposure sites are everywhere in my city, and we are in lockdown for another month yet. This is better than venturing out - and it is less carbon emissions than a car.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Voloskaya on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:49AM (#28595135)
The entire world has been in lockdown for months, we have all survived without drones delivering one mug of coffee at a time.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Rebelgecko on Monday September 20, 2021 @04:54PM (#28598874)
We haven't all survived, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million people have been killed by COVID. Obviously not all of them died from contracting COVID at a restaurant or coffee shop, but I suspect the number of deaths from trips to get coffee is significantly higher than zero (and that's before you take into account other factors like traffic accidents)
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by dkdbejwi383 on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:12AM (#28592930)
We have had several extended lockdowns of more than a month in the UK. I just ordered ground coffee beans and made it at home. Yeah, not as nice as real espresso, but it's not the end of the world.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ehnto on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:58AM (#28593305)
We have a big espresso culture in Australia, so a lot of people have espresso machines at home anyway. Compared to coffee from the shops every day it's pretty cheap to buy and run a consumer espresso machine at home.

That said, part of the fun of coffee is the cafe experience; covid willing, I still go out to cafes as well. Best not to optimize all of the fun out of life.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by throwaway210222 on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:11AM (#28594653)
> a lot of people have espresso machines at home anyway.

The Australian-designed/made Breville espresso machine is a gem.

I have no idea how I lived without it.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by walrus01 on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:58AM (#28593304)
there's a reason many municipalities have banned small gasoline engine leaf blowers. I'd be willing to bet the decibel level from a wing drone delivering coffee, two houses away, and a leaf blower might be similar.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by CydeWeys on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:17AM (#28594020)
Leaf blowers are also banned because they emit an outrageous amount of pollution. These electric drones at least don't have that problem.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ansible on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:49AM (#28594386)
Typical gas-powered leaf blowers use a 2-cycle engine. These in general are not efficient, and need oil combined with the gas to lubricate the motor. This oil is of course burned as part of the combustion, which generates a lot more pollutants than an efficient 4-cycle internal combustion engine (such as in your car).

These leaf blowers also don't have much of a muffler system (due to size / weight) and of course no exhaust gas recirculation or catalytic converter to further reduce emissions by-products.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by anonfornoreason on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:37PM (#28595687)
Nit pick, apologies up front. Two stroke motors are actually more efficient than four stroke motors, they just emit a bunch of pollution due to the oil in the gasoline, which is a much dirtier combustion than gasoline.

A two stroke motor is considerably simpler than a four stroke, they often come in at around half the weight for an equivalent power output, and have less moving parts. This is why they are the default engine of choice for hand powered tools - almost no maintenance, very little warmup cycle, high power:weight ratio. The downside is dirty exhaust.

Modern two stroke dirt bikes have actually all started moving to fuel injection to help combat this. No premixed oil/gas, oil is injected at an optimal ratio given the load of the engine. Light cruise / idling, they run at 100:1, at heavy throttle they drop down to 50:1. Much more pleasant than something set to constantly run, via premixing, at 50:1 gas:oil.

Other note: large ocean freighters are two stroke engines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4rtsil%C3%A4-Sulzer_RTA9...

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Scene_Cast2 on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:01PM (#28595997)
There are different types of efficiency. I think you might be referring to power per weight, while the parent comment is talking about emissions per (unit of) power.

To dig further, you can also differentiate between peak and sustained power; MTBF, maintenance (and dollars of maintenance) per hour of operation, volume, overall environmental effect (due to lifespan and manufacturing), etc etc.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by anonfornoreason on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:21PM (#28596237)
I am referring to both thermal efficiency, and power to fuel ratio. Meaning, for any given amount of work needed, a two stroke will produce more work for the same input of fuel as compared to an equivalent quality/design four stroke motor.

Your point is a good one though, but I think the common use case of the word efficiency, when talking about vehicles, if fuel required to produce a given amount of work (miles, horsepower, etc).

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ansible on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:29PM (#28599879)
I actually was talking about thermal efficiency of two-stroke vs. 4-stroke, and believed that overall four-stroke does better.

Reading about just a little bit, this may not be the case... depending on what application you are talking about.

I would expect to be some differences between a 10-ton marine two-stroke on a ship vs. a 49cc two-stroke on a moped in terms of efficiency.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by OJFord on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:35AM (#28594948)
For some reason this confused me more than normal (just not the usual context I'm familiar with it in I suppose) - so just to be clear, you mean the same 'gas' that goes in your car right? Not that you can get, I don't know, propane leaf blowers or something?

They are noisy and smelly as hell, there was some going on just outside my window (not that I'd hired) recently, the operators wearing ear protection of course, but I was barely any further away. Do wish they'd use electric - can do it from a battery even these days. (And mitre saws etc. too, quite incredible.)

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ansible on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:18PM (#28595475)
Yes, many of the gas leaf blowers use regular automotive gasoline, with a 50:1 mixture of oil added to the gasoline.

They do have electric leaf blowers, but those offer minutes of runtime instead of hours. So those might be suitable for a homeowner, but aren't very practical for professional lawn care use.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by sangnoir on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:35PM (#28595663)
> They do have electric leaf blowers, but those offer minutes of runtime instead of hours

This confused me for a second, as the electric leaf blowers that came to my mind have 'infinite' runtime. I then realized you're referring to cordless electric leaf blowers.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by OJFord on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:57PM (#28596672)
I know they (the blowers) exist - I meant I wish they (the specific people operating beneath my window) would use them.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by shkkmo on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:05PM (#28595315)
The 2-cycle vs 4-cycle engine distinction applies to gasoline engines used for a wide variety of applications.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by OJFord on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:56PM (#28596654)
Ah sure (mix with oil for 2 stroke right?) - it was just the US 'gas' terminology that threw me off. Somewhat used to hearing it for cars, but in this context my first thought was of pressurised cannisters of butane, propane, whatever strapped to the back of someone operating a leaf blower!
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by throwaway0a5e on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:32PM (#28595625)
>I am shaking my head. Is this the future we are entering? Drones delivering coffee?

Like it or not as wages creep up relative to "things" these sorts of business models will become economically viable.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by akudha on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:22AM (#28592545)
Except in rich areas probably, they will find a way to still do it, but without disturbing the residents somehow
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by dnautics on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:44AM (#28595048)
electric blowers are pretty quiet (not that i would ever use one, I prefer the mark 0 rake)
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by jacquesm on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:44AM (#28592277)
Agreed. Medication to inaccessible spots: fine. Coffee to spoiled yuppies: really not the way to go.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by BigJono on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:01AM (#28592391)
Those spoiled yuppies paying a 50%+ markup on coffee just to have it delivered by drone are the ones subsidising the research and engineering efforts that go towards delivering medicine to inacessible spots. If the market isn't there then the investment isn't either.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by IgorPartola on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:13AM (#28592483)
This feels like one of those feel good bullshit quips that is probably technically sort of true but only partially or some such. But I haven’t had my coffee delivered so I am not all there yet to figure out what the fallacy is.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by cochne on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:04AM (#28593350)
I think this argument is true and it is easily demonstrated with GPUs. They were able to be financially successful products largely because consumers wanted them to play video games.

Now they are necessary for academic research in deep learning and other fields, which would not have gotten GPUs as advanced as they are without the market boost.

Of course that’s just a theory and it’s never possible to go back and see what would have happened. But it seems reasonable to me.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mirker on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:33PM (#28596347)
I mean it’s a bit murkier than that:

1. GPUs used to be much less programmable and had fixed-function graphics pipelines.

2. General purpose GPU computing was demonstrated a decade before the 2012 deep learning craze. OpenCL/CUDA was quite mature in 2012 and used by high performance computing.

3. Transistor scaling (Moore’s law) has been speeding everything up exponentially.

4. There are a lot of non-GPU solutions now.

If GPUs didn’t exist, someone still could have trained a deep model on a cluster of CPU, and then we’d end up with GPUs (or similar hardware) again. So it’s not necessarily true that gaming->GPU->deep learning implies that GPUs couldn’t be used for deep learning without gaming, because you could have had CPU->deep learning->GPU. I think this was much more of a case of the stars magically aligning than some preset goal by Nvidia/AMD.

In fact, there are plenty of cases where you had CPU->research->HW accelerator. One example (on top of gaming/rendering) is compression or parity coding, which was slow initially and then had add-on cards and/or CPU extensions.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by lotsofpulp on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:52AM (#28592766)
The fallacy is that there are other ways of society to “subsidize” the research, e.g. via taxes. There is no need for the yuppie and the coffee.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by adventured on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:11AM (#28593409)
> e.g. via taxes ... There is no need for the yuppie and the coffee.

The taxes are also paid for by the yuppies at a disproportionate rate to their income share.

See: share of income taxes as broken out by income segment, in most every developed nation.

One of the central defining characteristics of a yuppie is a well-paying job. That means paying higher, progressive tax rates in most affluent nations, including Australia.

https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/individual-income-tax-rates/

See: what happens to California if you remove the tech yuppies pulling down $200,000 - $500,000, as well as their party buckets of equity compensation, the taxes of which the state rolls around in during the good times. California would become a formal second world disaster with no ability to fund anything. Illinois with nicer weather.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by lotsofpulp on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:50AM (#28593757)
I meant no need for yuppies to pay for coffee delivered by done in order to accomplish the goal of researching how to deliver medicines in hard to reach places. They may coincidentally have to do with each other (emphasis on “may”), but not causally.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by skinkestek on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:10AM (#28592908)
Norway tried this with carbon capture.

It ended up with a big payday for big oil IIRC.

Now that we are getting the socialists back in power (they was the ones behind the last attempt) they've promised to have companies buy into it too instead of just using taxes.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by skinkestek on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:58AM (#28595237)
It would be interesting to know why this is downvoted:

I consider myself fluent in Norwegian, did I still miss something?

Edit: to be clear, I don't care at all about those stupid point. For that matter dang should be free to reset them every day like he seems to do with his own.

I only care about them as an indication of whether what I said came across as wrong or something.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by shkkmo on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:14PM (#28595424)
It seems to be bringing up an relatively off topic political dispute without doing the work to justify the relevance or the claims being made. This makes it easy for people to see nothing more than anti carbon tax, anti socialist political baiting. This doesn't tend to lead to productive conversations and thus is likely to get downvoted on a political basis.

A more productive comment would have talked about how the Norwegian carbon tax was intended to fund research and how exactly it failed to do that and instead just created profits for oil companies.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by skinkestek on Monday September 20, 2021 @02:46PM (#28597277)
Ok, I see, thanks.

I don't have time to fix it now, but yes, this is my point:

I'm not against taxing pollution or using tax income to fund research, only against the part where we (Norway) literally gave money to companies without demanding results.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:18AM (#28592516)
The response to this is normally the same as the response to trophy hunting subsidising conservation: namely, "yeah, that's true, but reality shouldn't be that way". I don't find that a very compelling argument, but apparently some people do.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by hellbannedguy on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:07AM (#28592882)
I can see the ads now.

We at .com are delivering medicines to poor people in this unfortunate country that has no infrastructure. (baby crying, dog being kicked away from table with flies on the food, and sad music playing)

Disclaimer: This was done one time for advertising purposes, and is not indicative of how our whirlybirds will be used.

(Off topic, but here goes. You know those drug commercials that state if you can't afford the medications, we a Whizzerbio will help out with costs because we are there for Everyone.

This is how it worked when I looked into it. You, and your doctor have to fill out a bunch of forms.

The meds are only sent to the doctors office. So you will need to go there to pick the medication up, and I imagine setting up another appointment. I have no idea why they don't deliver to the patient, or reimburse the pharmacy. I imagine they want it delivered to the office so the pharmaceutical rep can have a real reason to talk with doc?

Only one patient per doctor are allowed to participate in this promotion. Doc has 1000 patients, but only one poor guy gets the free med.

I looked into this ten years ago, so things might have changed?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by path411 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:18AM (#28592521)
Except time has shown that companies aren't taking on their real cost to their communities.

How are people chuckling about this video when this is clear signs this will have real environmental effects and costs that if we are,"lucky" might be a taking point to politicians/CEOs in a couple of decades after irreversible damage is done

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:25AM (#28592565)
What's the environmental effect? It seems like a clear improvement over current delivery mechanisms, since it's lighter and can be powered with electricity. Is your argument based on some assumption of induced demand, i.e. that it will encourage people to get more deliveries?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by matthewmorgan on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:15AM (#28592494)
Trickle down coffee, heard it all now
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by hef19898 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:49AM (#28592745)
Once raven get more experience, it will no more like splashdown coffee.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by throwawaylinux on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:07AM (#28593373)
Are you sure? It doesn't seem believable that drone advancements have been significantly subsidized by coffee delivery, not even right now let alone over the past 10-20 years where huge advancements were made.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by CydeWeys on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:19AM (#28594061)
It's about the service existing going forward. If all these are gonna be used for is remote medicine delivery, then that's hardly any missions, thus hardly any money in it, and thus it wouldn't attract investments. The only reason these autonomous drone delivery companies exist is in anticipation of high demand, being as commonly used as Uber/Amazon/GrubHub.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by lolc on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:27PM (#28596304)
Well these guys say they've delivered quite a few packages with their drones. To hospitals. https://flyzipline.com/

Coffee wasn't on the agenda it seems.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by throwawaylinux on Monday September 20, 2021 @05:13PM (#28599079)
What is about that?

I find it difficult to believe coffee delivery even now or "going forward" significantly subsidizes drone technology development. Even if you expand that to delivery of other frivolities.

Do you have any numbers? Or reasoning?

Drones have already long had the capability to do all this, lift and endurance, auto flying and navigation, GPS, even cameras and some autonomous visual recognition.

What drone technologies are being subsidized by coffee delivery?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by BigJono on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:24AM (#28602016)
You've literally stumbled into the answer yourself here.

> Drones have already long had the capability to do all this, lift and endurance, auto flying and navigation, GPS, even cameras and some autonomous visual recognition.

If that's the case (which it is, you're right), then why are we not already delivering medicine to remote areas with drones?

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by throwawaylinux on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:17AM (#28603299)
I'm afraid that did not answer my question.

Also coffee is not being delivered to remote areas so I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by cabalamat on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:25AM (#28593525)
> Those spoiled yuppies paying a 50%+ markup on coffee just to have it delivered by drone are the ones subsidising the research and engineering efforts that go towards delivering medicine to inacessible spots

Really? Are spoiled yuppies ordering coffee a significant fraction of projected drone deliveries? I doubt it.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by mc32 on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:06AM (#28593366)
Most of it gets funded by BigCos with too much money, VCs looking for the next unicorn or things like DARPA.

50% markups may make it viable if it gets off the ground and becomes and ind operation but that’s not footing R&D.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ravendroneguy on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:05AM (#28592863)
The coffee is the same price as at a cafe. About $7, which is standard for a large with two extra shots which is about standard here.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by elliekelly on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:03AM (#28593341)
> If the market isn't there then the investment isn't either.

This is probably news to a lot of VCs who regularly make investments in hope of an eventual market.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by Loic on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:35AM (#28592641)
This "delivering medicine in inaccessible spots" is simply not true. We can already deliver Coca-Cola everywhere on Earth reliably.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by rewq4321 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:49AM (#28592744)
> This "delivering medicine in inaccessible spots" is simply not true. We can already deliver Coca-Cola everywhere on Earth reliably.

Your comment is so profoundly wrong, and yet so confidently written. You're comparing Coke, a long-shelf-life mass market product, with (often) emergency/low-latency delivery of products which would be impractical to stockpile in every remote village, even if they could affort it (e.g. certain types of medicine and consumable medical products, blood, etc.)

Coke doesn't need low-latency delivery - they can use high-bandwidth + warehousing. This isn't possible/practical for some types of products.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delivery_drone#Healthcare_deli...

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by hef19898 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:51AM (#28592764)
And still there is a way to reliably reach even the remotest areas where people live. Getting medicine there can, at least to a degree, piggy bag on that.

Unless it is a AI powered blockchain drone, that would be unbeatable!

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:06AM (#28592875)
Like the comment said to which you are replying, there isn't a fast enough supply chain for deliveries which 'go stale' far more quickly than Coca-Cola does. Therefore, no, they can't piggyback on that existing supply chain.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by hef19898 on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:20AM (#28593490)
Given that cooling is a thing, yes they can. Unless stuff goes shale within minutes, in which case even a drone won't help you.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by rewq4321 on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:33AM (#28594214)
What are you actually getting at here? If I had to pessimistically guess, it sounds like you're trying to signal "I'm part of the group that can see through the drone marketing hype. They can't fool me."

Drones are much faster than cars at getting to remote places. There are many, many villages throughout the African continent that can take several hours to get to due to lack of paved roads (you need a 4WD, and it'll be a bumpy, slow ride). Sometimes the territory is dangerous to drive though. Drones can also be used even in more developed areas when roads have been completely washed away by a flood/hurricane/landslide/etc. The industry certainly has been hyped, and it's still early days, but your claim that they're not useful is absurd.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by adolph on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:50AM (#28592750)
Zipline is delivering blood to 25 hospitals and clinics across[Rwanda] every day. Zipline is betting that transporting lifesaving medical supplies, which are often lightweight and urgently needed, will be the killer app for delivery drones.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/in-the-air-with-ziplines-medical-d...

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by nisegami on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:58AM (#28592813)
Coca-Cola doesn't require a cold supply chain. The bulk of its weight/volume (water) can also be combined with a much lighter and smaller syrup or equivalent to be produced in a near-local fashion. It also has the benefit of scale.

Consider a rarely needed but life-saving antivenom that is expensive to produce, requires careful+chilled storage and is just not that abundant outright due to difficult production. A snake bite could happen anywhere, but its infeasible and potentially wasteful to have it stocked at every local facility. If a drone could be used to deploy it from a central facility to where its needed in a timely manner on-demand, that could save lives. In the developed world, roads make ground transportation a more suitable approach for this problem (in addition to everything else that makes the problem itself less frequent), but in many parts of the world the ground infrastructure is simply not there.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by cronix on Monday September 20, 2021 @05:13PM (#28599076)
At least they won't be winning any lawsuits over coffee that is hot enough to cause burns.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by exporectomy on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:32PM (#28599899)
Wow. The amount of people here who would have wanted to ban cars when they were first invented is incredible. Luckily the world has plenty of inspired people actually doing novel things and these stuck-in-the-muds don't have much power.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by biesnecker on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:40AM (#28594999)
Though tbh nothing sounds more relaxing than a warm cup of homemade coffee and some net gun target practice in the morning :-D
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by trident5000 on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:09PM (#28595357)
shotgun would be way more satisfying
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by dzhiurgis on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:51AM (#28592314)
> Super-annoying sound

drones are quieter than cars

> delivering coffee is not one of them

perfect item to master the skill tho

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:58AM (#28592364)
Annoyingness is not the same thing as volume. Nails on a chalkboard is also quieter than a car, or an orchestra playing Mahler's Fifth.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by wiz21c on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:00AM (#28592828)
This 100% ! I live not far from an airport (airplanes are like very big drones is you will :-)). And although the number of decibels is probably inferior to the one of the cars passing by my street, I can assure you it's a hell of a lot more annoying. First there are much more infra bass, second it lasts much longer than a car passing by, third, they like to fly at 5 or 6 in the morning where most of the car drivers sleep (side note: according to city's rule, they can't fly at that time but they just pay the fine to do so...)
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:57AM (#28593296)
> third, they like to fly at 5 or 6 in the morning where most of the car drivers sleep (side note: according to city's rule, they can't fly at that time but they just pay the fine to do so...)

"If a fine costs less than the crime pays, then it's not a penalty, it's a cost of doing business"

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by dzhiurgis on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:29AM (#28592600)
How about lawnmower?
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by aix1 on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:44AM (#28592705)
There are no lawnmowers in the airspace above, or near, my house.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by analognoise on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:09AM (#28593393)
Invest in my aerial lawnmower drone company. We use Blockchain based tokens for lawns mowed. The mining pays for your lawn mowing with our drones.

We'll get an aerial lawnmower to you real quick, just sign up on our page.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by andrekandre on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:01AM (#28593325)
for now...
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by LightG on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:59AM (#28592375)
Not quieter than electric cars/bikes.

Pizza delivery / grocery motorbikes used to annoy the hell out of us. But the switch to electric mopeds has been a blessing.

Credit to Getir in London for standardising electric bikes across their fleet (at least where we are).

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by InvertedRhodium on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:21AM (#28593005)
I think even ebikes would cause now pollution than this drone - microplastics degrading off the rubber wheels and other components, as well as fine brake dust from pads.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:59AM (#28593313)
I don't know why you're being downvoted. You have a good point. I hate these vague accusations of "that's environmentally unsound" which get bandied around, without any evidence at all and in the full knowledge that they're as impossible to refute as they would be to prove, just because it's an unfalsifiable way of attacking something you dislike. No one ever calls them out on it either.
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by LightG on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:50AM (#28593761)
I was specifically talking about noise-pollution.

My ear-devices-pro+ record decent data and I submit that data as verifiable evidence in this matter.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by dkdbejwi383 on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:14AM (#28592953)
> But the switch to electric mopeds has been a blessing

In terms of noise pollution, yes. But it has meant some less spatially aware delivery riders flying silently around corners on pavements which is an annoying problem.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by LightG on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:51AM (#28593769)
Makes for some good youtube videos though (sorry).
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by imtringued on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:02AM (#28594557)
>drones are quieter than cars

Children are quieter than cars and yet I hear them from the 3rd floor because sound travels in a direct line with nothing obstructing it. You don't hear cars 3 blocks away because of all the buildings between you and the cars. You'll hear a drone 3 blocks away because the air doesn't block sound as much.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by lostlogin on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:25AM (#28592562)
> drones are quieter than cars

People get coffee delivered by car? If that is so it is rather depressing.

Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by samhw on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:51AM (#28593246)
Yup, a friend of mine gets his morning coffee delivered every morning. I felt like Marie Antoinette when I stayed at his house and he ordered me one ('you have a coffee machine right here! are you mad?').
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by CydeWeys on Monday September 20, 2021 @10:21AM (#28594085)
That's insanity to me. How much are they paying?!
Re:Footage of Australian Raven Attacking a Wing Drone in Can... by ssully on Monday September 20, 2021 @11:25AM (#28594830)
I am not the OP, but I just checked what it would be for me. This morning I got two medium coffee's (Dunkin) which came out to about $5. The same order on DoorDash is $12, $15 if you included a $3 tip.