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Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by ClumsyPilot on Friday July 30, 2021 @05:48PM (#28012799)
"being a temp for future robots"

While everyone was predicting that the dirty jobs would get automated, instead its a lot of midlevel jobs are getting automated, but we still don't have a robot that can take out the trash.

I am willing to bet my house thay we can automate away the CEO but not the janitor, and it will be hilarious.

Management is just analysis of data, we can do that. But the physical works requires dexterity and robotics that still escapes us.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by WalterBright on Friday July 30, 2021 @06:01PM (#28012940)
> we still don't have a robot that can take out the trash

Because it's hard to justify the $$$ on a robot to automate a job that takes 30 seconds once a week.

Modern people don't realize it, but an awful lot of household drudgery has been automated. I'm old enough to remember life before the microwave. What a marvelous time saver that is! You can even buy one from the thrift store for $10. I remember them being $1000, and that was back when a dollar was worth something.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by ridgeguy on Friday July 30, 2021 @09:05PM (#28014261)
Yeah, I'm old enough to remember that era, too.

My first encounter with a microwave was at far Bob's in Pasadena. Finals had just ended at Cal Tech and I walked to far Bob's to decompress. I had no knowledge of microwave ovens.

I ordered a piece of cherry pie. Waitress decided to warm it without telling me, using their then-new microwave oven.

The plate was ice cold when she passed it to me. When I bit into a piece of the pie, I burned the bejesus out of my mouth. I yelped and the waitress came running.

She showed me this magic box, which made sense as I'd just finished E&M. She comped me the pie and since it was a slow night (around 2am), we spent an hour testing different foods in the microwave. Bacon layered in paper towels was the clear winner.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by WalterBright on Friday July 30, 2021 @10:25PM (#28014656)
Nice to see a fellow techer here!

The fastest tech revolution I ever saw was in the fall of '75, when I was a frosh. At the beginning of the semester, the Caltech bookstore had slide rules for $125. By December, they were on closeout for $5. Never saw them again. The calculators had arrived!

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by bobsmooth on Friday July 30, 2021 @11:50PM (#28015117)
What was that like, going from log tables to instant calculations?
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by WalterBright on Saturday July 31, 2021 @12:17AM (#28015250)
Like riding your bike to school instead of walking.

(Showing my age again. Kids today don't ride bikes to school. All you gotta do is look at the lonely single bike rack at elementary schools. In my day there were lots of racks festooned with bikes. These days when I pass a school, there's a long line of moms in SUVs with the motor running talking on their phones.)

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by jacquesm on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:48AM (#28015938)
> Kids today don't ride bikes to school.

In the USA. But in plenty of other places they do. In fact, at the bike rack of my sons school there is too little place, so some of them overflow onto the school yard.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by WalterBright on Friday July 30, 2021 @07:38PM (#28013741)
Add to that the cheap-as-dirt popcorn maker. My mom would make popcorn in a frying pan. The machine is sooo much easier.

There are the mothers of kitchen automation:

1. refrigerator

2. garbage disposal

3. dishwasher

4. electric / gas stove and oven

These are really marvelous inventions. It seems I spent half my childhood washing dishes by hand. Ugh.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by distances on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:27AM (#28016893)
Out of interest, what do you mean by automated garbage disposal? The urban infrastructure of someone taking away your garbage, or the mostly-US device installed in your sinks?

The latter does not exist in Europe so I haven't ever thought it would be an important step in reducing chores. We have bio waste bins for food leftovers which seems pretty efficient already.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by schrectacular on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:09AM (#28017061)
It's a grinder machine that people install just below their drain. Ostensibly so that you don't have to put a strainer in there.

In my opinion they provide basically zero value but lots of trouble. They encourage putting all kinds of nastiness down your pipes and in my experience tend to break and leak. But they are virtually ubiquitous here.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by jmrm on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:58PM (#28020267)
Lots of local and regional governments in Europe encourage people to not use the toilet or the sink as a trash can. The wastewater is usually treated before arriving to rivers and other places, so the cleanest is the water, the easiest is to treat it.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by distances on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:46AM (#28025099)
Absolutely, only toilet paper can be thrown to toilets. Everything else must go to garbage bins, especially all kinds of wet wipes. Same is surely true for US too.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by zabzonk on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:13PM (#28013979)
> My mom would make popcorn in a frying pan. The machine is sooo much easier.

But perhaps not as much fun, particularly if you forget to put the lid on?

> It seems I spent half my childhood washing dishes by hand. Ugh.

Yes, I remember that when I left home to go to university, the very first thing my parents did was to buy a dishwasher.

Mind you, I don't have one today - kitchen too small, and I don't like bending down to fill/empty it.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by adt2bt on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:06PM (#28013943)
I'll be honest: I do think frying pan popcorn legitimately tastes better. That said, it can't be argued it's far easier to use the machine.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by katbyte on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:48PM (#28014164)
pretty easy if you use a steel mixing bowl covered in foil with some holes poked (unpopped kernels pool towards the Center)
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by GFischer on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:19AM (#28048788)
I still don't have a dishwasher or a garbage disposal (and I've never even used / seen any), diswasher seems really marginal upgrade as a childless couple - I guess it is a timesaver for a family of 4+?

I'm really wondering about the garbage disposal thing and I'll go Google about them.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by Dylan16807 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:29AM (#28016156)
Microwaves are great but they save waiting time more than drudgery. A toaster oven will heat/cook something with just as little input.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by ElFitz on Friday July 30, 2021 @07:25PM (#28013642)
> but we still don't have a robot that can take out the trash.

Pneumatic waste collection is a thing, and has been for quite some time.

See

- https://www.wired.com/2010/08/trash-sucking-island/

- https://untappedcities.com/2020/04/09/inside-roosevelt-islan...

- https://qz.com/1909600/the-future-of-garbage-collection-is-p...

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by kungito on Friday July 30, 2021 @05:56PM (#28012898)
Management isn't analysis of data, it is making a decision based on that analysis. A completely different and more complex problem. One could argue that the border between the two is unclear but we have for sure been automatizing the analysis and we are nowhere near removing the managers. Maybe we could say we have removed layers of management though
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by foobiekr on Friday July 30, 2021 @06:07PM (#28013012)
I'm with the bet-the-house guy. I've worked for huge organizations since 1990 and I really think that even a mid-grade student project could make decisions as well as the management I've known, which includes multiple Fortune 50 CEOs. When I say "known" I mean "known" and not "been ten layers under."

What I think will happen is CEOs will be glorified actors that are tasked with delivering the decisions some ML system has made. It'll be like the "white guy in a suit" role that some Chinese companies have.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by bravura on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:45PM (#28014141)
There are strong reasons to believe that tasks that are new to humans and are considered difficult, will be easy to AI. Like programming, finance, strategy, etc

Whereas things humans have developed over millions of years and think are easy, like vision, dexterity, etc might be quite hard and the last things to be automated.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by snowwrestler on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:17PM (#28013998)
ML systems don’t make decisions.

I feel like a lot of comments about what ML will do start with a misunderstanding of what ML actually is.

Saying ML will make a CEO’s decisions is like saying Excel will make CEO’s decisions. Neither is anything more than a system for keeping track of correlations.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by tomrod on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:46PM (#28014149)
ML models don't make decisions, but there certainly are ML systems, within which are ML models embedded with data flows, business logic, etc., which make "decisions" or "adjudications" or "classifications" or whatever term you are trying to avoid here.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by foobiekr on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:53AM (#28015648)
Neither do most CEOs. What they do is best guess which fully evaluated option for (d)investment they like better based on gut feel. Most business-oriented decisions are basically stack ranking the options presented.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by eitally on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:24PM (#28014024)
This is basically where we are today, except that instead of AI it's management consultants (and they're expensive).
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by whall6 on Friday July 30, 2021 @07:35PM (#28013713)
Because you knew every counter factual, right?
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by StreamBright on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:58AM (#28015665)
Absolutely. This is why it would be better to chose the best option without the management.

I regularly consult management about technical decisions and the always chose something else than the best option. Based on feelings, opinions and kickback rates.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by actually_a_dog on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:57AM (#28016279)
> I regularly consult management about technical decisions....

Well, right there's your problem.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by 8note on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:11PM (#28013970)
Don't we have robots that take out the trash? The garbage trucks pickup the garbage and put it in the truck.

Also, the vacuum now empties itself

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by katbyte on Friday July 30, 2021 @08:50PM (#28014174)
forget if it empties, the fact 90%+ of my vacuuming is done automatically is incredible! I can live with the 30 seconds to empty the bin every couple weeks
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by fosk on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:34AM (#28015857)
How is your vacuuming done automatically? You mean with a Roomba robot?

Have you found those working? All my friends that have one just end up storing them somewhere never to be used again.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by gambiting on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:38AM (#28016942)
How? I've had a roomba for almost 2 years now, and I use it all the time - it runs and cleans our living room and kitchen at least 2-3 times a week. There has been a noticeable reduction in dust present in the house. And that's not even a fancy self-emptying model, just a normal roomba where I have to empty the bin by hand. Why would you stop using one?
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by csunbird on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:15AM (#28016599)
Not the parent comment, but I think it depends on the house you have. I find huge american houses with 3-5 rooms are unsuitable, except when you limit the robot to one or two rooms.

My apartment in Europe is suitable for it, as I do not have many rooms, so that it does a decent job on cleaning. I do not use the regular vacuum very often.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by distances on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:18AM (#28017103)
On the other hand my old European apartment isn't very suitable as my robot gets stuck on high door thresholds and under radiators. It's great anyway, just can't be left alone as I need to save it every now and then.
Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by HWR_14 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:15AM (#28017088)
1) I think we can automate the janitor now. We just don't because it's cheaper to pay minimum wage for 25-30 years.

2) The CEO, and CEO pay, is already more of political action.

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by ClumsyPilot on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:34PM (#28020088)
"I think we can automate the janitor now."

Have you ever seen a robot unclog a toiler? Get into a greasy kitchen vent to clean it? Clean out the molt between the tiles?

Of fuck that, there is no cleaning robot that can even recognise a stain a scrub it off with a brush.

Do you know there are different kinds of cleaning products and brushes for different surfaces?

Cleaning is a very complex process made up of hundreds of little actions, each fairly complex. They require loads of dexterity

Re:1 out of every 153 American workers is an Amazon employee by HWR_14 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:14PM (#28021611)
> Have you ever seen a robot unclog a toiler? Get into a greasy kitchen vent to clean it? Clean out the molt between the tiles?

I have seen a plunger-bot. I have never seen a commercial plunger-bot. I think I've also seen a mold scrubber bot. I'm not trying to minimize the skill involved. I'm trying to say that the labor it replaces (assuming the time value of money and minimum wage increases cancel out) is worth 362,500 over 25 years. That's a lot of money, but it's also not for a robot that can do all those things assuming it was as efficient as replacing a whole person. And less if the robot has to be replaced more frequently.

If the market supported a robot that cost a few orders of magnitude more than that, I can see a fleet of robots. Not 100% "let 'er rip" L-5 autonomy, but where one person managed a fleet of specialized robots. Mapping out the surfaces ahead of time, etc.

I will say, I was responding to a "janitor" in the office environment doing routine tasks emptying trash. Not a kitchen vent cleaner. There are a lot of deep cleaning actions that would be harder to automate, and given their rareness and extra difficulty are likely the last to go.