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Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:03PM (#27583659)
Can someone please define 'metaverse' in the context of... whatever this article is about?

Like jfc people, 'End users will experience the metaverse through the default device delivered experience.' sounds like the most doublespeakiest doublespeak ever to have been written.

I love tech and this lofty shit makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Speak plainly and simply, folks.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by deeviant on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:46PM (#27584226)
Of course, I think I can help.

What is trying to be communicated here is psychographic content will be delivered via standard device substrates existing in well aligned usage patterns that will no doubt delight the end-user with value. Metaverse here simply means they will deliver an experience that is parallel to user expectation yet orthogonal to the digital representation of the physical model of the prevailing social zeitgeist.

Or maybe someone just read Ready Player One recently, and is just thinking: We're going to build the Oasis but nobody could possibility understand what that is, I'll have to break it down into easy-to-misunderstand corpobabble.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hprotagonist on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:57PM (#27584382)
> We’re going to build the Oasis and

The Black Sun was there first.

Can i interest you in a loose collection of extremely janky perl scripts? The bar’s owner hates it but, who cares? If he kicks us out we can just race bikes for a while until the fuss blows over.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by nixpulvis on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:19PM (#27584652)
Any idea where a guy can score The Librarian these days? Wikipedia is cool and all, but it's lacking a certain... finesse.

On a more serious note, I think these are different metaverses. Ours is pretty much locked in VR as far as I can tell, and Apple is building an overlay on zeroth-order reality, aka AR. Arguably harder and more powerful if done properly. Which I'm sure it won't be.

:P

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by chipotle_coyote on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:56PM (#27585055)
> Arguably harder and more powerful if done properly. Which I'm sure it won't be.

My response is kind of stuck between "that's overly cynical, isn't it" and "statistically speaking, that's pretty likely".

(I was actually working at an early AR project at Nokia a bit over a decade ago, at the time called Point & Find, later called CityLens. It gave me a feeling that good AR may be one of those things that remains "just a couple years away" for decades.)

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hnuser123456 on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:15PM (#27585234)
Define "good AR"? Pokemon Go is nearing its 5th birthday. A VRchat overlay you can use on the street? If you get the Epson AR glasses, combine it with the Quest 2's Snapdragon XR2, and mess around in Unity for a bit, that could be done by the end of the year. Create an app that's killer enough to make up for the bulkiness/inconvenience/price of a version 1 streetwear AR headset and we'll be getting somewhere.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by chipotle_coyote on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:43PM (#27585501)
That's fair -- with the caveat that your last sentence is asking for a lot. :) I think Pokemon Go did a great job of being an AR game, although I couldn't help but notice that literally everyone I knew playing it turned off the camera functionality after a few weeks and gave up on the AR overlay part.

I don't know what the "killer app" for AR is really going to be. CityLens and comparable apps like Yelp Monocle on smartphones clearly haven't cut it. (Show of hands: how many people remembered Yelp had an augmented reality mode? I don't think it's there anymore.) I think the big challenge now is thinking of applications that aren't games where using goggles/glasses give you more than incremental improvements over putting the UI on your wrist or in your ear(s).

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hprotagonist on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:03PM (#27585682)
>I don't know what the "killer app" for AR is really going to be.

I wonder if it really is a navigation HUD. For example, i’d love this, with some auditory interface, for things like cycling and motorcycling and also probably normal driving too. Safely presenting salient information in the same depth of focus as the road, and giving me tools to interact with it with voice, would be good AR in those situations, and i’m in them pretty frequently.

Is that a big enough market? Will it inevitably descend into the inverse of They Live?

we’ve given the hardware a shot at least a few times now and wearable glasses tech has not yet been useful. But i can’t think of anything else.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by nixpulvis on Monday June 21, 2021 @08:28PM (#27586435)
They can also just project the image onto your retina directly, but this requires some serious tracking I don't understand or know if it really exists.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hprotagonist on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @11:33AM (#27592985)
people have been playing with it since the 80s, but it has yet to become more than alpha/research stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_retinal_display

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by nixpulvis on Monday June 21, 2021 @08:34PM (#27586488)
- High resolution

- Low latency, ideally imperceptibly low

- "Delta-zero", meaning the overlaid virtual reality should never drift from reality itself. This is probably theoretically impossible, so let's just be imperceptible here too.

This should boil down to a completely continuous interface over the sensory domains of all humans (other animals?)

For now I assume we are only talking about the visual and audio senses.

All eyes and ears.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hnuser123456 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @11:54AM (#27593272)
This has been the case in PC VR for years. The Valve Index has a combined 4.6 MP at up to 144hz, with reprojection and motion smoothing so that the image still updates with head movement even if the application hitches. Or now you can get the Vive Pro 2 with 12 MP at 120hz. Or wireless oculus quest 2 with 7 MP at 120hz. The novelty would be a clear screen, or forward facing cameras, and a useful AR overlay.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by jsemrau on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:35PM (#27584832)
You rmemeber Blaxxun from the '90s ? Man, that was a Metaverse.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by ryanmcbride on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:20PM (#27584668)
That's where my mind immediately goes when I hear 'metaverse' too
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by bjornjajayaja on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:48PM (#27585563)
Like a hipster wearing a monocle fashioned with metaverse-substrate. The new age user interface is like cup of coffee and a pipe with eco-friendly, translucent tobacco.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:53PM (#27584307)
I appreciate the irony of your second paragraph
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by amelius on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:46PM (#27584935)
Does this have something to do with the reality distortion field?
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by ant6n on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:24PM (#27584722)
>> Speak plainly and simply, folks.

> Of course, I think I can help. (…)[jibberish]

Lol, well done!

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by abricot on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:38PM (#27584867)
Listen to him. He speaks jive.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:38PM (#27584129)
Completely agree. The words "metaverse substrate" just set my BS meter to a thousand, so I didn't even bother reading the article at first. Then I did read (most of it), and still my BS meter was at a thousand.

If you can't explain what you mean in simple, easy to understand language, and you're not talking about quantum physics, you're just bullshitting. Should be required reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Langu...

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by grork on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:28AM (#27588294)
As alluded to in another reply, it is a bit of a BS term!

But it’s also not totally unfair. I think much of the metaverse & AR ecosystem doesn’t have great terminology.

I mean ‘slap some goggles on and touch floaty doo-hickeys that you see but they aren’t really there’ doesn’t quite have the same curb appeal…

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by EvanAnderson on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:11PM (#27583764)
I assume it's a reference, at least in part, to the virtual reality world in Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by OedipusRex on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:27PM (#27583988)
Which is where this falls apart. In the book the Metaverse is basically a completely novel location in “VR”.

If we’re pursuing a Metaverse, VR Chat is closer to a Metaverse than Apple.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by TheOtherHobbes on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:57PM (#27584381)
Ads that follow you around in VR. There will be no escape.

Also, Apple will try to make useful things appear in your VR goggles - like showing you how to get home on a map, when in fact you're planning to go out for a drink, or go grocery shopping, or anything but.

This is a terrible article, but the idea is - if not sound, at least potentially interesting.

It's basically enhanced location-aware cognition, taking input from everything around you - sound, video, tactile input, GPS location, event history, AI-enhanced memory - and combining it in real time to produce (checks notes...) "a new class of life-enhancing interactions."

The problem? It needs a lot of moving parts working together seamlessly with better-than-human performance and reliability.

Otherwise it will be a kludgy distracting nightmare of failed meta-everything - like the most annoying and useless intern anyone has ever had, only everywhere.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by donpdonp on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:23PM (#27584702)
HYPER-REALITY from 2016 is a very well done imagining of that AR advertising dystopia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by eecc on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:11PM (#27584546)
> Otherwise it will be a kludgy distracting nightmare of failed meta-everything - like the most annoying and useless intern anyone has ever had, only everywhere.

Clippy?

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by dole on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:55PM (#27585037)
Can I just get Alexa on a drone that perpetually follows me around and broadcasts (or projects visually) occasional targeted advertising? /s
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by eecc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @07:57AM (#27616305)
Don't give them ideas, the marketing team is everywhere

/s (I hope)

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by Accujack on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:10PM (#27584533)
Except it won't go on a coffee run.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:05PM (#27584469)
Great, then I look forward to another useless technobauble being hamfistedly shoved down my throat.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by sombremesa on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:51PM (#27584284)
> Can someone please define 'metaverse' in the context of... whatever this article is about?

Personally, I dislike the term and I believe that it causes people to lose credibility when they use it. However, I can define it to some extent.

Consider the term 'universe' in the context of 'a particular sphere of activity, interest, or experience'. For example, the 'Harry Potter universe'.

The 'metaverse' is simply such a 'universe' that you can't really opt out of, because it's a layer on top of, rather than distinct from, the regular old world. This is why AR is often considered to be such an intrinsic aspect of it.

Now, you might say that 'the internet' is just such a metaverse, but it isn't because it doesn't benefit the people who peddle the buzzword.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:56PM (#27584353)
I guess I don't get what's so meta about it. We're not talking about a universe that describes universes.

Metaphysics = the physics of physics

Metascience = studying science itself with science

Metaphilosophy = Philosophy about philosophy itself

Metadata = data describing data

Gaming 'meta' = the game of how to best play the game

'Meta' is one of those ultra-abstract terms that obfuscates the meaning of whatever word it is attached to unless the listener gives or has given the word a fair amount of thought. Ah, then maybe that is why it is being used here.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by skissane on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:40PM (#27586016)
> Metaphysics = the physics of physics

Metaphysics isn't really the "physics of physics" though. It is part of philosophy, not physics. It isn't even the "philosophy of physics", since that names a branch of philosophy distinct from metaphysics (albeit they do have some points of overlap.) This is an example of where the meaning of a term is different from the sum of its parts.

The philosophical implications of quantum theory (and its interpretations) is one part of the philosophy of physics, but the study of those implications go beyond just metaphysics proper and also extends to other areas of philosophy such as the philosophy of mind, epistemology, the philosophy of logic, etc. Conversely, there are some debates in metaphysics with which contemporary philosophy of physics doesn't concern itself with much, such as the relationship between existence and essence, or the problem of universals.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by heisenzombie on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:19PM (#27585827)
I think that in the context of AR they actually are trying to talk about "universes that describe a universe".

A "metaverse" is a "universe" in the sense that it's a shared 4D spacetime that you can explore (using some technology to give you a window into it). It's "meta" because it's layered on top of our "base universe": It's there to describe and augment the physical universe we exist in.

For example: If, in your vision (via glasses, or a HUD, or a pane of glass or a brain implant), there's a big 3D arrow hovering above a road then the arrow exists in the "metaverse" and the road exists in the physical universe that the metaverse is describing.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by bawolff on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:50PM (#27586092)
The definition of meta has changed over time. My understanding is it got the current "abstract" "thing aboout itself" definition long after the term "metaphysics" was coined, which probably originally meant "things we don't have a good name for but should probably file after the stuff about physics"
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by rnhmjoj on Monday June 21, 2021 @08:15PM (#27586311)
Exactly, I believe the term comes from Aristotele's work "τὰ μετὰ τὰ φυσικά", literally "the after the physics", which may have just had a very practical meaning: writings that come after the physics writings.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by Grustaf on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:25PM (#27584724)
Why wouldn't you be able to opt out of some AR world?

I thought metaverse just meant Second Life 2.0.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by sombremesa on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:47PM (#27584943)
You're right, that wasn't the best choice of words. I just meant that it would be difficult to ignore or be uninfluenced by it, at least if there were able to exist "THE metaverse" rather than several fragmented attempts.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by beeandapenguin on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:43PM (#27584182)
In general, the term 'metaverse' is commonly used in the AR/VR space to describe virtual worlds. Today, in (virtual) reality it feels somewhat analogous to an "immersive operating system". It's the entry point for doing other things on a VR system.

Some examples: Roblox, Facebook Horizon, VRChat, NEOS

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by mikepurvis on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:19PM (#27583887)
It's right there in the first paragraph:

"I’ve been less sure they understood the full scope needed to build a compelling AR ecosystem – a metaverse."

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:24PM (#27583942)
I saw that, and the definition still says nothing.

Ok, so a metaverse is somehow the realization of the "full scope" needed for a compelling AR ecosystem? And what exactly does that mean, and how does that define this particular usage of the (heavily overloaded) term 'metaverse'?

Meta meaning 'about', so a universe about a universe?

edit/ugh: googling the term says 'a virtual-reality space in which users can interact with a computer-generated environment and other users.'

Like wtf does that have to do with the meta root word here?

There is far too much abstraction in this vocabulary defining a thing that is very real.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by blowski on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:25PM (#27583953)
To understand the metaverse first you need to understand the metaverse. That's what I take from these comments and the article.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by tomc1985 on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:28PM (#27584007)
mind_blown.gif /s
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by lallysingh on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:58PM (#27584392)
It's the universe (the regular meatspace one) augmented with metadata, traditionally named such in AR/VR circles. Metadata like names, statistics, directions, etc. Such as a HUD you'd see in first-person video games.

Another use of the term (not here) would be a way to jump between VR systems, but they never generalized well enough to make that a significant thing. Right now Steam would count

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by AndrewKemendo on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:53PM (#27585603)
The Metaverse in this context is a continuously updated digital copy of the real world, where the "environment" is generated passively by users.

Imagine a city park where a handful of people have glasses with cameras on them that are continuously sending a geo-located feed of the images to a map server which processes it into a 3D reconstruction. You could watch in real time as the city park is reconstructed and updated in real time 3D, add in virtual content, make content "layers" for different digital assets, track interactions etc...

It's a globally crowdsourced, consistently updated real time digital twin of the world.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by memco on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:42PM (#27585498)
I was also confused and clicked just to try to figure out what the headline meant. In the very beginning of the article there's this line:

> I’ve been less sure they understood the full scope needed to build a compelling AR ecosystem – a metaverse.

Seems this is about augmented reality being integrated into the regular experience of a significant population.

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by grawprog on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:36PM (#27584103)
I could be wrong, but sifting through that utterly terrible corporate buzzword filled whatever the hell that was...

I think it's what Apple's calling their new Augmented Reality platform...I think...or what the author is calling what could be Apple's potential AR platform...maybe?

Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by infradig on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:23PM (#27585862)
A highly-reflective model of Earth's visible and intangible aspects outlined by David Gelernter (1991) in his book “Mirror Worlds”.
Re:Apple is building the metaverse substrate by slver on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:11PM (#27583761)
Basically bunch of wanking about futuristic AR sci-fi technology that the author has decided to accept as proven to be coming, but actually isn't.

See flying cars 20 years ago.