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Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by thanatos519 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:11PM (#27282733)
I've been thinking that the most appropriate response to this situation is to send an extraction team to rescue him.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by extraction_team on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:18PM (#27285837)
The US State Department doesn't extract assets.

It's a bit like being a spy: get caught and you're disavowed.

Now, what I for one would love to see is an extraction of Julian Assange. He's a far more important journalist, who's been held in captivity far longer, and whose mental and physical deterioration as a result of the abuse he's endured has been far greater. He's the Griffith of the journalistic world.

Who wouldn't love hearing that a crack Russian special forces unit dropped into London, hit the Belmarsh hard, incapacitated the prison guards, and sprang Assange? Then vanished from London under cover of night, nursed Assange back to health in Russia, and Assange eventually returns to journalism after a decade of suppression, assuming his mind can be pieced back together, while living as a free refugee, enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in the former USSR?

I think we're all owed a happy ending at this point. It's been an ugly decade.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by zionic on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:17PM (#27282801)
I’m not sure we can count on the governments that keep JA rotting in prison to rescue a journalist.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by thanatos519 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:23PM (#27282863)
Did I say anything about governments? Let's crowdfund it.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by pjc50 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:37PM (#27283031)
This reminds me of when Mark Thatcher tried to crowdfund a coup in guinea and failed spectacularly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Equatorial_Guinea_coup_...

(It is of course illegal to crowdfund coup attempts and jailbreaks in foreign countries, although whether a prosecution takes place is entirely political)

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by mc32 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:45PM (#27283119)
That reminds me of the guys who popped Carlos Ghosn from Japan. Lesson is don’t do it. It’s against the law even if you think it’s the right thing.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by chmod775 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:58PM (#27285668)
If people used "the law" as their sole guidance and moral compass, we'd still be living under kings.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by hungryforcodes on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:19AM (#27286284)
He totally got out of Japan though.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ALittleLight on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:01PM (#27284854)
There must be a crypto betting market out there where you could create a "Journalist will not be rescued from Belarus" bet and people could start betting against it until it became profitable enough for a mercenary company to do it.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by e_proxus on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @05:58AM (#27288416)
This is such a dystopian comment, sounds like straight out of a William Gibson / Neal Stephenson / Vernor Vinge book.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ALittleLight on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @03:06PM (#27294727)
I've seen crypto betting markets [1] that have bets on whether or not Joe Biden will still be President at the end of the month. Ostensibly they are about his old age or Trump proving the election fraudulent or some such. But another way to construe them is as an inducement towards assassination.

1 - https://polymarket.com/market/will-joe-biden-be-president-of...

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by IAmGraydon on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:54PM (#27283818)
You want to crowdfund sending paramilitary operatives into a foreign country, an act of war. Got it. What could go wrong?
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by SuoDuanDao on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:28PM (#27284630)
It's 2021, things going wrong seems like a given at this point.

Call me irresponsible, but I am weirdly optimistic about the potential for our floundering to have unexpected upsides

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by medium_burrito on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:00PM (#27285688)
Absolutely. 5th generation warfare, motherfucker.

The Russians are the world's undisputed masters of this, so it's time we paramilitarize back.

Also, time to fuck Russia, hard. Putin's parkinsons won't come soon enough, and what comes after might even be worse. We should offer a visa for every Russian woman under 18. Starve the country of mothers, and their birthrate is already abysmal.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by H8crilA on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:28PM (#27282918)
Imagine thinking that money solves such problems.

Who are you going to pay for that? Your neighbor Joey, he will go and perform an intelligence operation in a foreign country? Or maybe some professional CIA-as-a-service corporation?

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by rjsw on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:47PM (#27283135)
Money seemed to be enough to get Carlos Ghosn out of Japan [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Flight_from_Japan

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by pkaye on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:05PM (#27283916)
But money was not enough to prevent the two men who freed him from being extradited to Japan.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by shard on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:38AM (#27300650)
Money was enough for those men to accept the possibility of being extradited to Japan.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by sillysaurusx on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:32PM (#27282964)
I might go. But I'm not sure an out of shape balding programmer would be much help.

It's appealing to try to help this person, though. Maybe other people feel the same.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by dylan604 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:37PM (#27285530)
We'll use you as a distraction. You can walk up to the guards and fake a heart attack. Larry, Moe & Curly will then sneak behind the guards. I promise, it will not be an episode of Keystone Cops.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by sam_lowry_ on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:37PM (#27283035)
For sure I do.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by sillysaurusx on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:42PM (#27283085)
The main problem is that a paramilitary group (us) has a disadvantage vs a government agency (them). They have the people, the equipment, and the home territory. There's also the language barrier; most of the people we'd recruit wouldn't be able to blend in, which is crucial for an op like this.

There's also the question of logistics. It would be hard to transport weapons across country borders. The most likely way to do it might be to start the op in a neighboring country. But if you want to drive, you'll probably be stopped at a checkpoint. Walking isn't very appealing. I suppose you could parachute in, Fortnite-style, but that's pushing the boundaries of believability. Plus that Mig they sent to intercept the civilian plane might have a few things to say about that.

That poor guy. I wish there was something to do for him.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:06PM (#27283339)
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by dylan604 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:41PM (#27285554)
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by squarefoot on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:55PM (#27283240)
> Imagine thinking that money solves such problems.

Money (ie, power) creates and solves such problems; it just doesn't do that under the sun.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by rodgerd on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:02PM (#27283302)
I mean Mark Prince has shown that he and his family's companies are happy to murder for hire. That's probably a good starting point if you want killers that operate with at the support of a major Western government.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by glogla on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:36PM (#27283020)
> Or maybe some professional CIA-as-a-service corporation?

Actually I'm pretty sure there are PCMs who could handle it.

Crowdfunding mercenaries to go against nation states would be very cyberpunk.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by medium_burrito on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:01PM (#27285699)
Executive Outcomes returned this last year, IIRC. They pulled off some extremely crazy thing in Indonesia a long time ago, and still have access to top talent.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by midasuni on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:51PM (#27283176)
An actual useful reason for crypto (other than money laundering)
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by glogla on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:05PM (#27283330)
Yeah it's not like you were going ask Shadowrunners for a refund.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by bagacrap on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:35PM (#27283000)
you act as if you've never watched a heist movie
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by throwaway803453 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:34PM (#27282997)
The likelihood of collateral damage makes this a bad idea. It's better just to sanction all gov't officials (e.g., refuse to let them travel outside of Belarus, cancel their Netflix, etc.), until he is released.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by jp555 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:31AM (#27289114)
Belarus controls 20% of the world's potash, so nope.

Geopolitics is much more a game of Go than Call of Duty.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by silexia on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:52PM (#27283198)
Better solution: assassinate Lukashenko and all his henchmen. Put the fear of god in every dictator worldwide.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by retrac on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:02PM (#27283303)
While Lukashenko may not, some of those dictators have the effective power to assassinate Western leaders in retaliation. I'm really not sure we want to open that can of worms.

It'll also blow right up in our face in terms of the desired effect. In many cases, I figure doing that would actually boost support for the regime. Many dictators are ruling right now on nationalist sentiment -- "I may be a thug but I am strong and I keep our nation safe from the Americans [or whoever]". Bumping them off will not exactly dispel that myth. If they survive, or if power transfers stably to their second-hand-man or woman, they can now portray themselves and their nation as besieged by hostile foreign powers which will stoop as low as assassination to manipulate the nation's destiny for their ulterior objectives. (The best propaganda, after all, is the truth.)

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Zak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:47PM (#27285181)
When I was a child, I remember my parents suggesting that instead of whatever war was in the news at the time killing thousands, the leaders of the respective countries should have a duel.

Assassinations aren't quite that, but perhaps the world would be better if that, rather than warfare was how countries that couldn't resolve their differences escalated. Leaders would have a more personal stake in resolving conflict diplomatically, and fewer people would die when they failed.

I should note this is only half-serious before somebody writes up a reply about a scenario where more extreme leaders take their place and there's a worse war as a result, or some such.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Mountain_Skies on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:16PM (#27283433)
I face palm pretty much every time any US administration, Democratic or Republican, makes statements about Venezuela. Seems like every single time it only makes things worse and gives whoever is running the place into the ground at the moment something external to point to as being the source of the people's misery. The desire to "do something" is strong and hard to resist but often is counterproductive.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by baybal2 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:44PM (#27283719)
> While Lukashenko may not

Anybody can assassinate just anybody. Even heads of G7 can only afford security barely enough to defend against lone attacker with a battalion sized force constantly following them.

It's just they don't want to because they are afraid.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by anigbrowl on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:26PM (#27284116)
Even when this sort of thing is organized privately rather than by some rival polity, the ramifications tend to get out of hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Au...

A more effective solution is to sponsor a resistance movement (whether militant or peaceful) and this has been done so often that it's been systematized in both military and civil terms by various imperial powers, but with (imho) increasingly mediocre outcomes and increasing risk of blowback.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by quickthrowman on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:40PM (#27283679)
What happens in the ensuing power vacuum? See: The US in Iraq, Libya post-Ghaddafi, etc

It also sends a very strong message to Putin that the US may not want to send

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by baybal2 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:51PM (#27283783)
> What happens in the ensuing power vacuum?

What a heck is that "power vacuum?" I never managed to comprehend the mechanics of Western thought process arriving to that philosophical concept.

> It also sends a very strong message to Putin that the US may not want to send

You want to send this message. You want Putin to be intimidated, and scared, and not laughing at you in the face.

Very massive intimidation. Gaddafi's intimate encounter with a bayonet type of one.

It will be also a message of unity, for the world to see that the West can still Desert Storm any Hitler wannabe like was in time when the West was big, and menacing, and not the other way around.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by zozbot234 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:05PM (#27283908)
> What a heck is that "power vacuum?" I never managed to comprehend the mechanics of Western thought process arriving to that philosophical concept.

It's called a "vacuum" by analogy with physics, because unscrupulous folks will rush in to fill it. This kind of chaos is not something you actually want, since it lets the worst guys around win easily. You want to give Mr. Dictator the best opportunity to establish well-founded transition/succession mechanisms (including respect for fundamental rights, which is even more important than democratic voting norms!) and then step down willingly and orderly, with a golden parachute to sweeten the deal.

The West has gotten this stuff horribly wrong as of late, even as recently as the latest wars in the Middle East, but that's no reason to do even worse.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by anigbrowl on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:32PM (#27284164)
It's not even that it lets the worst people seize power (although this is often the case). It's just that someone will seize power; it's less than obvious who that will be to any outside intervenor; and considerable positional/ temporal advantage is likely to be lost during the interregnum.

tl;dr Better the devil you know, in most cases.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by baybal2 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:10PM (#27283965)
That's a really fucked up thought process
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by quickthrowman on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:23PM (#27284081)
History has shown that it isn’t, though. ISIS rising up and capturing actual land area and oil infrastructure was a direct result of the US ousting Saddam Hussein. There’s a whole lot more examples of this in history.

Here’s an example from the end of Habsburg Spain: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Successio...

This guy rose to power after Tsar Nicolas II and his family were machine-gunned: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin Then, Stalin rose to power from the chaos after Lenin’s death, and then when Stalin died, Malankov was ‘in charge’ until Khrushchev took power from him, and so on.

There are counter examples of course, Nicolae Ceausescu being executed in Romania, for instance.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Anthony-G on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:00PM (#27296643)
I’ve upvoted your comment because you’re correct that history is full of examples of power vacuums leading to negative outcomes for the general population (such as war or other chaos before a new leader or group eventually consolidates power), e.g., I only learned about the bloody War of the Spanish Succession when I visited Barcelona a few years ago. However, I don’t think the Russian Revolution is a particularly good example as it was more complex series of events and historical forces resulting in the displacement of the existing power structure (Russian Empire).

After the Tsar was forced to abdicate as a result of the spontaneous, popular and bottom-up February 1917 Revolution, his government was replaced by a provisional government led by Kerensky which tried to incorporate all political classes and factions in Russian society. However, the provisional government was both weak and unstable – vulnerable to a coup by monarchists in the army while being effectively dependent on the co-operation of the Soviets (workers’ councils / citizen assemblies) of the more industrialised cities, particularly St. Petersburg. Just as important, they had been unable to extricate Russia from the disastrous and unpopular war with Germany (Eastern front of the First World War) and had been unable to resolve much of the material conditions (food shortages) that precipitated the February Revolution.

The Bolshevik party had been organising as a revolutionary party (previously a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party) since the turn of the century. Unlike orthodox Marxists, they weren’t content to wait for the capitalist class to become powerful enough to institute modern, industrialised capitalism in Russian society and they believed it was their role to revolutionise Russian society, by-passing the capitalist stage of development.

By 1917, the Bolsheviks had become a well-disciplined and effective political force. They successfully worked towards gaining the support of the majority of the working class in St. Petersburg and Moscow (but not the peasants). After they gained control of the Soviets, they were strong enough to carry out their own coup d’état (known as the October Revolution) and become both the “de facto” and “de jure” ruling party.

The Tsar and his family were executed (horribly, by both bayonet and gunshot) only after the Bolsheviks had consolidated their power in order to prevent monarchist/counter-revolutionary forces (known as the “Whites”) from rescuing them.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by anigbrowl on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:47PM (#27284312)
This guy rose to power after Tsar Nicolas II and his family were machine-gunned

Well, Lenin (with peers like Trotsky and to some extent Stalin) was the architect of the Russian revolution that got rid of the Tsars. Rather than being a lucky opportunist he was dedicated to that project for a long period, motivated significantly by the execution of his brother. I don't think it's a great example of a power vacuum so much as the payoff for a singular focus on a specific goal.

On the other hand, Lenin's debilitation and death following being shot in an assassination attempt and then suffering a series of strokes did create a power vacuum, and Stalin had cleverly positioned himself to fully exploit it and push aside his rival Trotsky - arguably a more capable military and political leader, but one so dedicated to his cause that he failed to defend his own position.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by noduerme on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @03:53AM (#27287622)
The idea is also captured in lots of western post-apocalyptic science fiction. The absence of a functioning government gives rise to local warlords. The "vacuum" is made up of weak semi-states that are usually horrific. Chinese history is full of periods of warlordism, too.

One of the things I found so bizarre as a liberal... I was against the Iraq war on the basis that it would create a power vacuum, which it did. When six years later, liberals lined up to applaud the Arab Spring, I was against American support for it for the same reason. Both of those things were sold to the American public as a form of liberation from dictatorship. In the former, we would supply democracy after overthrowing Hussein. In the latter, we would expect countries with no history of democracy and almost no independent civic institutions to do it for themselves. The goal is great, but it never seems to be reached. People here haven't mentioned the Iranian revolution which was the most vivid example in modern history of a sudden vacuum in a dictator's absence, with the presence of a drifting democracy movement, being filled by a bloodthirsty lunatic.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by 746487482 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:16PM (#27284016)
Has anything ever improved after an assassination?
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by rasz on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:38PM (#27284223)
France did.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by anigbrowl on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:50PM (#27284353)
If you refer to the French revolution's eventual execution of the deposed monarch, I'm not sure that qualifies as 'assassination.'
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by wearywanderer on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @03:24PM (#27294932)
France "improved" after the Revolution if you ignore that minor tangent where, in the chaos and confusion that followed, a man declared himself emperor and thought to conquer all of Europe (starting a series of wars that lasted for more than ten years and killed millions.)

But at least Europe got much needed civil reform in the process, I guess?

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by 3np on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:58PM (#27284425)
Does Rasputin count?
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by croes on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:33PM (#27283593)
Ruling with fear? That's what dictators do.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smallstepforman on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:52PM (#27283208)
Snowden? Assagne?
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by vbezhenar on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:24PM (#27283518)
He's Belarusian citizen. Why do you want to rescue him? There are thousands of people in a similar situation all over the world. What about sending a team to UK to rescue Assange?
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by 746487482 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:49PM (#27283777)
Citizenship does not imply loyalty to a government. I live in the UK and would fully support anyone rescuing Assange and everyone else in a similar situation, as long as they do it carefully and don't start a war.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by brandmeyer on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:11PM (#27283975)
nit: Assange is an Australian citizen. The situation is not analogous.