News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by geocrasher on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:20AM (#27075538)
It's nice to see hard evidence of this, but anecdotal evidence is plain to see on Amazon.com reviews. For example, a product gets a lot of 5 star reviews stating that the buyer bought it for their child/relative/friend and they are just sure that they will love it... 5 stars! Or "I just got this delivered yesterday and I haven't used it yet but it looks really great!"... 5 stars.

These are then immediately followed by a 1 star review along the lines of "This is the biggest piece of junk I've ever bought online. Will be returning to Amazon. DO NOT BUY!"

These aren't to be confused with the indiscriminate idiots who can't be bothered to use their brains, who leave mindless reviews such as "This is junk but it was cheap and kinda works... 5 stars!" Right.

Most times this trend of 5's followed by 1's is seen even in the first page of reviews. It's a serious problem with the platform. I usually search for reviews written by people who have had the product for a week or two and give the pros/cons along with a less than 5 star rating. That helps me avoid the fakes and the idiots.

This makes me wonder why Amazon, in all their analytical genius, isn't cracking down on this when it's so blatantly obvious.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by spenczar5 on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:36AM (#27077036)
> This makes me wonder why Amazon, in all their analytical genius, isn't cracking down on this when it's so blatantly obvious.

I used to work at Amazon, and can say that this came up on internal mailing lists all. the. time. It really bothers people, particularly engineers who see that it is eroding customers' trust in Amazon. It's really bad, and people know it. There were significant teams trying to work on it when I left.

I think it really is that it's a very difficult problem of cat-and-mouse, without any clear path to victory for Amazon, and the sellers have a huge monetary incentive to evade detection. It's very adversarial, and Amazon has the tough position of _also_ not wanting to discourage legitimate reviews and sellers. And there are so many sellers that solutions need to scale well.

So: I think they're trying, but it's a bona fide hard problem.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by TheRealDunkirk on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:03PM (#27080838)
> And there are so many sellers that solutions need to scale well.

This actually raises a core part of the problem: why does Amazon need literally dozens of sellers for every piece of junk on the site? For any sort of commodity on the site, there can be thousands of results. All the same. All within a few percent of the same price. All completely indistinguishable through any mechanism in the search facility. There have been so many times that I've been looking for something with a specific feature, and it's just page after page after page of stuff I don't want, that I finally give up and just buy the crap they're shoving at me. That brutally-carnal competition for every nickel and dime is a big part of the motivation to flood the platform with fake reviews.

What made Amazon great at the start was the fact that they DID NOT carry every conceivable item under the sun, from every single person who wants to spin up a mercantile account and give it a whirl. I've gone back to buying most things from brick-and-mortar stores because THEY are still doing the curation. They're not going to carry 17,000 different USB cables, and the ones they do are going to be high-enough quality that they don't have a high rate of return. I wish Amazon all the worst. To paraphrase Yogi Berra: No one shops at Amazon any more; it's too crowded.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Traster on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:30PM (#27081071)
I think this actually works in Amazon's favour. It's a completely intractable problem to find the best widget from 17 pages of almost identical widgets with completely unstructured data to sift through. So what do customers do? They buy the Amazon recommended choice. It serves two purposes, it crowds out any competitive market place whilst capturing practically all of the value by determining what gets put in front of the customer first.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by CodeMage on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:08PM (#27081835)
I'm not sure it really works in Amazons favor. Sure, some customers might be more inclined to buy the Amazon recommended choice. But I wonder how many are frustrated like me.

When I buy stuff on Amazon, it's not because I want Amazon to recommend their pick. I want to compare alternatives and make my own choice. That's getting harder and harder, because there's a gazillion identical results with spammy, polluted product names, sold by a bajillion different-yet-indistinguishable sellers. And each one of those results has a nice, fancy-looking template, but when you start reading, it's full of spelling and grammar errors.

It's as frustrating as trying to have a "conversation" with a chat bot.

What's the solution? Beats me. A naive part of my brain is suggesting some kind of vetting process for sellers, or maybe a trust rating, but I'm sure there are tons of horrible problems with those ideas.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:31PM (#27083179)
Totally and you order something and it’s not like the reviews said it would be... because a ton of them are fake.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by omniscient_oce on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:29PM (#27082773)
I keep getting ads on Youtube from some Malaysian guys telling me how they bought cheap Chinese stuff on Alibaba and sold it for like 10x the price on Amazon and how I can really easily get $200,000 USD per month if I follow their 'easy' course. I really wish all these dropshipping "entrepreneurs" would run each other into the ground.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dangrossman on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:17PM (#27081468)
I don't think they're trying very hard.

I recently bought a dog collar on Amazon. A week or so later, I got a large envelope in the mail, with "Amazon Early Reviewer Program, 2646 Rainer Ave S St 1020, Seattle, WA 98144" as the return address.

Inside was a piece of paper with a code to "activate my $20 gift card" by leaving a 5-star review of the dog collar, photographing the review, and emailing it to a very non-Amazon email. It also instructed me that "for security reasons", I should not include or attach this letter to my review, nor leave a negative review without emailing them first. All this still purports to be from Amazon proper with the Amazon logo on the paper as well.

This is clearly a scam from the seller to buy 5-star reviews, and their product has plenty of what look to be paid reviews to me as a result. I tried very hard to find any place to report this scheme, which goes past review buying to include impersonating Amazon itself, and mail fraud. I emailed several Amazon contacts, used contact forms on their site, and contact forms I could find on the seller side as well. I attached photos of the letter.

The only response I got was a form letter telling me that if I saw a fake review, I should click the report button under that review.

This is just one example. Almost every product I've bought in the past year that came from an individual seller included some kind of bribe for 5-star reviews, from gift cards to whole "free products every month" programs.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by hughrr on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:28PM (#27081551)
The other way round is the time I left a negative review for a phone case. I was emailed every day automatically by the seller directly to my email from theirs to retract my negative review. I asked them to stop. They didn’t.

I reported this to Microsoft as it was an outlook.com source address. Microsoft did nothing. My junk mail folder was starting to fill.

After about two months of this i got passive aggressive and set up a script to email them a 20 meg gif with “fuck you” tiled on it hourly to their mailbox. After about a day they got the point and I stopped receiving emails.

I think amazon have stopped sellers getting hold of buyers emails directly now though.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:33PM (#27083191)
I’m not usually into cheering for that sort of behavior but I have to say WELL PLAYED, sir!
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by tailspin2019 on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:42PM (#27081651)
Brilliant.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by tailspin2019 on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:47PM (#27081683)
> I don't think they're trying very hard.

I agree. I don't get why there hasn't been more progress on this. The ratings are almost meaningless now on almost the majority of products on Amazon.

Amazon themselves seem to be directly making the problem worse with "early access reviews" or whatever they're called.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dahauns on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:24AM (#27086104)
Those gift cards are often hilariously bad, like the one I recently received for a USB cable. Very official Amazon-looking at first glance, until you realize that it almost looks like cut out by hand. And when I was promised "10 US€ for a 5-star reviews" on the back, I couldn't help but read it in Borat's voice. :)
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by fastball on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:08PM (#27077381)
Doesn't Amazon allow sellers to send freebies to people and still count as a verified purchaser?

For me, a good start would be:

- Only allow people to rate things that they bought with their own money, as evidenced by a credit card or bank account linked with their name on it.

- Only allow people to rate things after they have purchased multiple products, or after you've spent above a certain threshold (e.g. $100).

AFAICT, those are not currently requirements on Amazon and would go a long way (in my layman's imagination) towards fixing the problem.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by spenczar5 on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:39PM (#27077817)
Unfortunately, I don't think those would help, and they might hurt.

Your first suggestion doesn't address paid reviews. Usually the scheme is "buy it, and we will reimburse you with a little extra on top after you leave a review."

Your second suggestion would probably bias towards fake reviewers. It's pretty rare for someone to get paid just for one review.

One of the hard things to realize is that paid reviews are written by real people. Most of them probably know they are doing something shady, but not all - some think this is a legitimate marketing interaction. Many of them also leave real reviews for stuff - including negative reviews. It's generally not actually bots writing reviews.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:35PM (#27083203)
Oh wow, so the paid reviewers actually “buy” the product. What a shit show.

Amazon probably doesn’t consider this much of a priority to deal with as it doesn’t hurt them just their customers.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by TheCraiggers on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:35PM (#27080584)
Sure, but it would surely reduce the scale of these fake reviews. Right now, companies can buy reviews in batches of thousands; the only actual cost is in somebody/something creating that review and some overhead.

If Amazon also required actual purchase of that item, now there's the extra cost of actually buying that item. Even more so when you're talking about things that are expensive. This would drastically lower the amount of spam that could be generated unless the company wants to throw some huge money at it.

Returned items would still potentially be an issue, but I'm guessing Amazon already has things in place to kick off users that return too many items.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:36PM (#27083209)
Yeah, microeconomics, make it more costly and harder to Crete fake reviews.

Amazon has the brain power and resources to mitigate this problem...

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by fma on Friday May 07, 2021 @03:00PM (#27079591)
Item 1) Currently, sellers give out coupons codes that make a $50 item into a $5 item. People buy in reviews group buy it...it counts as a purchase and Amazon marks their review as "Verified Purchase".

Item 2) Professional reviewers have purchased multiple products above certain threshold.

Easier way to stop this is to prevent reviews from people who used a coupon to buy something and the price is above some threshold (i.e. seller doesn't knock to $5 between 10PM and midnight for their reviewers to buy it).

If I can think of this solution - why can't Amazon? Simple answer is they know of this behavior and encourage it.

I have shifted my purchasing behavior to buy from Walmart, Target, Ebay when at all possible. I know Walmart isn't exactly an angel - but I'd rather have 2 devils in the marketplace than 1. I even try to buy books from Barnes And Noble...but unfortunately the fulfillment time + price is hard to beat w/ Amazon. I rarely have books above the B&N threshold for free shipping.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by james-skemp on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:36PM (#27083586)
I tried to switch to Target, especially for standard household supplies, but they seem to be actively pushing people away.

- they killed their subscription service (last year?) - laundry detergent may or may not be taped (they at least bag it), leading to spillage - they use the same flimsy tape for all of their packages - they stopped using any sort of package space filler (I really liked when they were using long sheets of paper - makes me less worried about plastic waste, and we could give them to our son so he could color on them) - you need to use their app for curbside pickup (Home Depot does this right with the ability to do it with or without their app) - inconsistent availability of items for shipping

It's easy to meet their free shipping limit, and it's nice to have the option to pickup from a local location, but unlike some retailers, I feel Target would rather you either shop in their physical stores, or go somewhere else.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by tasssko on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:05PM (#27081388)
Ebay helped facilitate a fraud against me and are still on my black list. The whole process was horrible and costly. Up until it happened i used them regularly to buy and sell. I know its tangential but my thoughts are based on your white list. Essentially eBay and to a degree Amazon are perpetrating fraud indirectly on a massive scale.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by treeman79 on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:58PM (#27083704)
Tried selling a MacBook on eBay. Winners gave instructions on shipping to a bust stop in Africa.

I reported it fi eBay as method of payment looked dodgy as well.

Was instructed that everything was fine and to ship it. I didn’t.

Now a week later I got another email say that it might be a scam. So they canceled it.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by _hyn3 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @10:33AM (#27087452)
Sam's, Costco, and Walmart.com, as well as grocery.walmart.com ... Walmart is definitely firing on all cylinders these days. (Costco has literally the worst website, and they rarely have great deals on it like in the club, so... thinking about letting that one go.) For cheap Chinese stuff, going to Ebay. Also going to Ebay for things like used laptop chargers, since I figure the odds are higher that with new ones, they might be counterfeit.

Unfortunately, I still put up with Amazon for probably 40% of my purchases. It's fast and generally cheap. (Even though even Amazon Prime has gotten ridiculous)

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:38PM (#27083217)
Fuck coupons if they enable fraud.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by azinman2 on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:20PM (#27077567)
As we learned in this breach, people are buying themselves and then getting reimbursed via PayPal.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by the-pigeon on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:35PM (#27077773)
> I think it really is that it's a very difficult problem of cat-and-mouse, without any clear path to victory for Amazon, and the sellers have a huge monetary incentive to evade detection.

Honestly it's really hard to believe you. That may have been what you were told but there's hundreds of well documented cases of sellers manipulating reviews where Amazon does not penalize the seller.

The logical explanation is Amazon has decided not to punish sellers who manipulate reviews if Amazon thinks it's a net gain for Amazon.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by spenczar5 on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:51PM (#27077974)
> Honestly it's really hard to believe you.

Yeah, I get it. For what it's worth - I didn't just get told they care, I saw some of the systems that were built to work on detection.

Amazon is not a very short-term oriented company. They're usually pretty good at caring about long-term dominance to get dollars in ten years rather than pennies today. It's clear as day to anyone that fake reviews are hurting their image to customers, eroding trust. That's leading people to buy stuff elsewhere.

At the same time, Amazon Marketplace is one of the underappreciated masterstrokes from Amazon over the last 15 years and has driven a huge increase in their retail revenue, which you can see in annual reports. So, certainly they're unwilling to take really dramatic action like dropping 3rd-party sellers entirely. But I still think they realize fixing this is pretty crucial for the long-term health of the retail business.

It's hard for me to explain the cases where people find obvious fraud and the seller doesn't get penalized. These would get flagged internally in mailing lists too, and most of the time it was a process error somewhere - a ticket that got dropped when shuffled between the zillion different departments; Amazon's internal bureaucracy is truly insane and huge. I think it's usually incompetence rather than devious cleverness, honestly.

There are probably some other cases that are more complicated (sellers reopening new accounts, and then doing social engineering on unwitting poorly-paid support people to regain listings). I think those are kind of rare.

---

Anyway, all this to say: I get it, it's hard to believe because it's easy to think of Amazon as all-powerful. But... they're really not. It's a huge, slow, bureaucratic, sludgy company. They have some money (okay, a lot of money) and technical talent but it isn't super clear how you'd apply those to this problem. It's hard.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Judgmentality on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:02PM (#27078123)
> I get it, it's hard to believe because it's easy to think of Amazon as all-powerful.

This has nothing to do with thinking Amazon is all-powerful, and everything to do with thinking they don't care because it makes them money. Amazon's revenue is clearly skyrocketing and they make a ton of money because of the marketplace. It seems obvious to me they made the decision to put revenue/profits over long-term customer support.

You believe that Amazon wants to solve the problem. I believe Amazon doesn't want to solve the problem, because they make more money not solving it now. And talking about the long-term vision of a company whose founding CEO just stepped down is pretty meaningless.

I'll be more blunt. Amazon saying they care about fake reviews is like Facebook saying they care about privacy. They make money by lying about it, not fixing it. Facebook clearly hasn't suffered the long term damage of years of horrible PR using their stock price as a metric (you know, the only metric that really matters), and Amazon likely won't either (in fact they've had just as much bad PR and look at them now).

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Xeronate on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:21PM (#27078378)
If you had ever worked at Amazon you would find it very difficult to believe what you do. Short term solutions aren’t part of the companies culture. Andy Jassy has been around since the beginning and has the same core values as Jeff. Not to mention your argument could equally be made with Jeff as the CEO. It just isn’t how the company works.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Judgmentality on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:30PM (#27078479)
I have never worked at Amazon, but I have heard enough horrible things from people that used to work there that make me believe not everybody shares your opinion. In fact, those other people went out of their way to convince me not to take a job there.

I am glad you seem to enjoy working at Amazon, or at least have a respect for the culture. I've never been there so I can't comment on it, but I've heard lots of horrible things about the culture there. And lately the complaints have been shifting towards Amazon thinking more and more about short-term profits instead of the big picture.

All I can say is not everybody agrees with you.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Scramblejams on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:36PM (#27079258)
I don't speak for my employer, which is Amazon.

FWIW, single data point, YMMV, etc., but where I work (under AWS) I have never seen behavior that is exploitive of the customer like you're talking about to be encouraged or allowed.

Yes, AWS may be different from how things are done in retail, and we're huge so I'm sure it does happen here and there -- but from my admittedly limited vantage point, Bezos' heavy emphases on long-term thinking and earning the customer's trust have taken deep root everywhere I've been able to see.

Doesn't mean peeps always get it right, some choices are difficult, compromises have to be made, there are outliers, etc., but still, it's there. I've just never seen cheap thinking around customers, so to speak, and I really like that aspect of working where I do.

If that ever changes in a broad way, that'll be the beginning of the end of Amazon's dominance.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Judgmentality on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:54PM (#27079504)
> If that ever changes in a broad way, that'll be the beginning of the end of Amazon's dominance.

And I'm saying I think this is already happening, and the most talented senior employees are already starting to leave. This is going to take years, maybe decades to unravel. But I've already shifted away from buying things on Amazon because the experience has become significantly worse for me and I'm better off buying elsewhere.

You're welcome to disagree, but I think Amazon is no longer about value creation but value extraction. And quite frankly it doesn't matter if you feel differently as an employee, because that's how I feel as a customer.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by spenczar5 on Friday May 07, 2021 @03:21PM (#27079875)
It's funny, you and I arrive at the same conclusion from different paths.

You believe Amazon is so bad at removing fraud because they are greedy and evil and are happy to have it. I believe Amazon is so bad at removing fraud because it's beyond their capabilities, and that nobody knows how to ensure trustworthy information on the internet.

But we arrive at the same spot: I don't really buy from Amazon anymore either for anything where the quality matters, because I can't trust anything on there. I use Chewy for pet stuff, Newegg or Monoprice for electronic stuff, Lee Valley for gardening stuff - etc.

In a way, I'm more pessimistic than you: I think good intentions wouldn't even help.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Judgmentality on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:31PM (#27109252)
If Amazon wanted to solve this problem, they'd get rid of comingling and allow customer to flag bad returns as "fraudulent products." It would be trivial to train an ML model to catch fraud this way, all you have to do is allow it to have meaningful inputs. Of course once you get rid of comingling you don't even need to bother with that, as you've solved the problem the same way the rest of the industry has already solved it.

This isn't hard. Seriously, you have lost all goodwill from me - anyone that isn't a fucking idiot could immediately solve this problem. But Amazon doesn't want to lose money, is what you really mean.

Fuck Amazon and fuck you. I have more respect for Facebook at this point.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:54PM (#27083336)
You’re saying the company that’s revolutionized the supply chain and brought us AWS can’t mitigate at least mass, organized fraud if it was a priority?!

Bull shit.

There will be Amazon rockets and maybe one day a Mars landing but stopping mass fraud is too big a problem?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by throwawayboise on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:16PM (#27081894)
I've also completely stopped buying from Amazon. I will go so far as to exclude amazon.* from my search results when I'm searching online for an item.

Reasons:

- Receiving broken, clearly used/returned, or counterfeit items.

- Product reviews obviously gamed and useless.

- Sticking their nose into political issues. Just run your services please and don't try to tell me what to read or think.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by fiftyacorn on Friday May 07, 2021 @03:41PM (#27080086)
I always wonder how much you can truly unlink from Amazon for retail purchases. Even where a store runs on Shopify there is a good chance they are using FBA for fulfilment
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:50PM (#27083295)
Then please prove that commitment to the customer and to long term credibility by making it a high priority to mitigate this problem.

A lot of people love Amazon now but this kind of shit screws customers and that’s unacceptable.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by andreilys on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:09PM (#27080332)
What about the short term solution of PIP culture?

Sure you get short term results because colleagues are competing against one another to not get into the PIP meat grinder, but inevitably it leads to burnout and people leaving.

Not to mention Amazon’s reputation in tech is pretty low b/c everyone knows about this management by PIP culture

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sosborn on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:21PM (#27078389)
> they make a ton of money because of the marketplace

Would that go away once the shitty reviews go away? I'm not convinced it would. The economic impact would be on shitty sellers as they would lose revenue, but I suspect a lot of that revenue would just go to good products.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Nasrudith on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:03PM (#27080841)
Think about that initial paragraph for a moment. You assume it is because it makes them money but you also assume it is a choice on their part - that they could do something about it that works.

That is basically the same thing as all powerful in this context. It is the same pattern of sinisterization in the whole "Big Tech Bad" propaganda push.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:47PM (#27083272)
Well said.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by BeetleB on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:30PM (#27081067)
> At the same time, Amazon Marketplace is one of the underappreciated masterstrokes from Amazon over the last 15 years and has driven a huge increase in their retail revenue, which you can see in annual reports. So, certainly they're unwilling to take really dramatic action like dropping 3rd-party sellers entirely. But I still think they realize fixing this is pretty crucial for the long-term health of the retail business.

This is a long winded way of saying "Yeah it sucks, but we're not losing as much money as we are making because of this, so we're not as invested in fixing this problem."

I'm not doubting whether they want it fixed. I'm doubting the priority they put on it.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:46PM (#27083263)
They’re been able to create a service or two for AWS so they clearly have the horsepower to resolve this unacceptable problem that’s eroding their credibility. They have a lot of cred now which I assume they don’t want sliding down a slippery slope.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by stickfigure on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:55PM (#27078777)
> where Amazon does not penalize the seller

If fake reviews simply penalize the seller, you've opened up an attack channel where anyone can submit fake reviews and eliminate competitors from the marketplace. It's complicated.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by _hyn3 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:09PM (#27090264)
But then you're buying your competitor's products.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:39PM (#27083225)
Yeah, I have to call Bullshit that Amazon couldn’t stop at least organized mass fraud.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by mdavis6890 on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:15PM (#27080376)
"...Amazon...significant teams trying to work on it...but it's a bona fide hard problem."

Random internet individuals: "But they could just..."

Like so many things/problems - they all seem easy/obvious until you actually TRY TO DO IT, at which point you realize why all of the other very smart people haven't solved it yet.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by totalZero on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:50PM (#27081261)
This is an oversimplification. Amazon also profits from fake reviews because they encourage consumer confidence, and most of the solutions that "random internet individuals" propose would result in some lost revenue for Amazon. The tricky part is Amazon's counter-aligned business incentive.

I put it in the same bucket as fake accounts on Twitter. My guess is that Twitter can correlate many accounts that do nothing but troll and shill for particular factions, and probably has a registry of these accounts, but they also lose MAUs when they nuke accounts. They have an incentive to wait until user growth comes in stronger than expected before they ban lots of active users.

For me personally, the biggest weakness of Amazon is commingling of inventory. I never buy things like lubricants and bearings from Amazon, even if the seller is an authorized distributor, because there's no guarantee I will avoid knockoffs from a different seller. I'd rather buy from Walmart or pay more for a specialty retailer to ship me the product, because Amazon inventory is often mixed with cheap knockoff garbage.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by themeiguoren on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:59PM (#27111918)
FakeSpot and ReviewMeta are up on different tabs every time I buy something new on Amazon, and they do a pretty good job of alerting you to scammy reviews without any internal Amazon info. I can’t imagine it’s not something an internal team could make a serious dent in.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by IG_Semmelweiss on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:50PM (#27078715)
Thats a huge myth.

The problem was created by amazon and can be fixed by Amazon.

Close the backdoor entrance for chinese sellers, and problem solved.

Amazon made it easy for random chinese companies to onboard as amazon sellers because it lowered every single barrier from an import/ banking/permit perspective

Amazon can close that door anytime it wants.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by prima_cookie on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:43PM (#27080660)
but hey, I get free giftcards from those guys for copy-pasting the review they email me after buying a product from them...
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Gibbon1 on Friday May 07, 2021 @03:06PM (#27079677)
The problem is 20 years ago the people who were reviewing products were the buyers for distributors selling to brick and mortar stores.

Amazon business model was being a parasite, benefiting from the system of high quality products and trust built into the system. Without having to pay distributors, buyers, and store rents. And lest we forget sales tax.

But that old system is now dead and gone. So there are no trustworthy good faith reviewers.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by BeetleB on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:27PM (#27081034)
> and the sellers have a huge monetary incentive to evade detection.

Let's not forget that it is Amazon that is providing this huge monetary incentive.

As a customer, I really wouldn't care if Amazon dropped all 3rd party sellers. Most users won't. Amazon, of course, will.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dataflow on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:31PM (#27083560)
> I think it really is that it's a very difficult problem of cat-and-mouse, without any clear path to victory for Amazon

Uhm, how about not commingling inventory and not letting people swap out entire products underneath the same ratings/reviews?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dillondoyle on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:06PM (#27078865)
Can't you just only allow reviews for purchasers with X amount minimum lifetime amazon spend? Just make the cost benefit not worth it to do 500 scam reviews. They already have verified purchase.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by someguyorother on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:28PM (#27081053)
That seems vulnerable to a version of the Scientology bestseller exploit.

Let's say the seller is selling widgets. They get their phantom accounts to buy the widgets and thus run up the lifetime spend counter. Then they give the "purchased" widgets to themselves and just keep on selling them.

All they have to pay per iteration is the overhead (Amazon's take), assuming they'll manage to clear their stock later.

E.g. say a widget costs $110, of which Amazon's take is $10. The seller uses their fake account to buy 10 widgets at a total cost of $1100. The seller both receive the widgets (shipped to the fake account's address) and the $1000 from the "sale". The total cost is thus $100 for making the fake account look like it has spent $1000.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by joshhart on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:55PM (#27081745)
Why not have certified users who have a clear history of buying things on the platform that can provide "trusted" reviews? Certainly there might still be a problem with sellers spamming people to ask for reviews in money but I think it would up the bar substantially. You can then improve this by only allowing reviews from people with known purchases.

You can roll this out with two 5-star rating systems and replace the old one once the new one has enough ratings.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by marmot777 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:27PM (#27083161)
Would restricting reviews to only confirmed purchasers help?
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by pessimizer on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:52AM (#27075843)
> This makes me wonder why Amazon, in all their analytical genius, isn't cracking down on this when it's so blatantly obvious.

Because there are absolutely no consequences, and general boosterism increases sales. If you go to site X and there are a mix of good and bad reviews for a product, but then go to Amazon and see all good reviews a similar product, you buy at Amazon. Especially if you have Prime, which you might just have because you like a tv show.

If a systematic fraud is exposed, accounts are banned, Amazon press-releases a "crackdown", new accounts are quietly created by new business entities owned by the same people, process continues. What's the cost?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by JKCalhoun on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:21AM (#27076176)
Disagree. Amazon's reviews were the reason I would buy online, wait several days, vs. driving home from Best Buy with a new TV.

I remember even walking into a brick and mortar store, confused because I had no way to judge, for example, one rice cooker against another.

As the reliability of Amazon's reviews has waned, so has my loyalty.

If I'm just rolling the dice now, I might as well roll the dice on eBay or aliexpress.....

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by ct0 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:45AM (#27076489)
I have to agree with this sentiment. In general, I look for long term use reviews, any sign that a product will fail both beyond the return period and warranty period.

If my trust in long term reviews erode, I'm inclined to buy less.

Word of mount is a powerful tool that amazon has harnessed with reviews, and has seemingly replaced the need to see a product in person before a purchase.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bluGill on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:16PM (#27077495)
I keep thinking I need to subscribe to consumer reports. They seem to be the only reviewers these days that I can be sure are not bought. They might or might not know what they are talking about, but at least they are not bought.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by davidhowlett on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:02PM (#27078119)
I spent years worrying about misleading descriptions and fake reviews. I then bought a subscription to which.co.uk and have been a happy customer since. They review a wide variety of products and they are a non-profit registered as a charity in the UK. They are mainly funded by consumer subscriptions so conflicts of interest are avoided.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Dayshine on Friday May 07, 2021 @03:39PM (#27080064)
How do you justify the £100/year?

Which's primary benefit seems to be for White goods, but how often do you buy a new fridge/oven/etc?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by throwawayboise on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:25PM (#27081967)
CR are not as unbiased as they claim to be. They love Honda cars for example, and my experience with Hondas has been uniformly disastrous. Or may I just got two lemons.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by achenatx on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:00PM (#27078814)
single reviews are fine for product features but not really about all the ways a product can fail. This becomes statistical in nature and a single reviewer wont necessarily find those issues.

I find amazon reviews are still fine. Read the worst reviews read 3* reviews to find all the worst things. Use 5* reviews to get an idea.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by baccheion on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:47AM (#27076507)
They do have some basic algorithm that weighs each review/reviewer. The average shown isn't a raw one. Some reviews count more than others. Then add in fakespot.com..
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by gccs on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:59AM (#27076663)
When you roll the dice on amazon, you can return it if you don't like it. Its harder to do that on ebay, and impossible to do on aliexpress.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by toss1 on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:07AM (#27076747)
Yup, easy returns are a big benefit, and keep me from completely abandoning Amazon, for now.

However, for some categories, such as batteries or electronics, even after examining all the negative reviews and rates, I've found it impossible to get non-counterfeit products. I'm happy to go to a regional specialist in such items or even to a big-box store just to get greater confidence in a genuine item.

(&yes, don't even think about getting 18650s on Amazon. I saw someone selling boxes with a Tesla logo & brand - obvious BS. I reported it and at least did see them disappear in a week, but another popped up.)

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by grumpyautist on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:45PM (#27078647)
Ilumn has been my go to for 18650s for years
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by heavyset_go on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:42PM (#27077869)
I've made many returns on AliExpress. I haven't even needed to ship the items back to get a refund.

Amazon will eventually drop you as a customer if you make it a regular thing to file returns.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by mitchdoogle on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:55PM (#27078039)
I have regularly purchased multiple items on Amazon with the intent of sending back my least preferred option for about 3 years now. I had the occasional return before that as well.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by goodpoint on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:04PM (#27077313)
A lot of stuff on aliexpress is 2x, 3x or 4x times cheaper than amazon, so the tradeoffs are complex...
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dwighttk on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:10AM (#27076784)
Keep pumping that well if you want but it is going to dry up.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Spooky23 on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:08AM (#27076755)
You are a money losing customer, as you’ll return stuff you don’t like. They would rather have you cost BestBuy money.

There’s weird psychological aspects with this. People want to buy 5 star product.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by milesvp on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:32PM (#27077732)
I worked in a big box retailer a couple decades ago. They had metrics that showed them every time a customer entered the store it was worth $50. This created a huge incentive to handle returns, since just being in the store “made them money” even if they walked out of the store without buying anything.

I don’t know how well this translates to best buy, since they probably don’t have the same really large purchases skewing the average up, but I’m positive returns are a net positive for them using similar metrics.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Spooky23 on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:59PM (#27078080)
Absolutely.

I paid for college working at a big box store 20 hours a week in the 90s, about 50% of commissions were trolling the return line and selling to those folks.

For Amazon, I don’t think it’s that way… you mail them a return and they don’t cross-sell, many times they scrap and sell by the pound.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bstar77 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:52AM (#27076567)
A product that has lots of reviews shows customer engagement and Amazon knows this. I'm certain those products get tons more sales because people naturally gravitate to what's popular. I just bought a small storage cabinet that had no reviews and no customer data on it. I hate to say it, but I'd probably be a bit more comfortable if there were tons of fake reviews as illogical as that sounds, but this particular one was the exact size I needed.

I'm also the kind of person that goes straight to the 2-3 star reviews. I want to know the issues and determine if it's just sour grapes (damaged on delivery) or something I should be concerned about. When I was browsing step up converters, I found some amazing reviews at the 2* levels... like engineers that picked the product apart and determined they were wired wrong and might be a fire hazard. Sadly these types of reviews get buried and often ignored by the worthless deluge of 5* reviews.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by ccn0p on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:58AM (#27076644)
Yes this. Even worse I've noticed these new business entities are getting even better at pretending to be real businesses with websites, contact forms, pictures of buildings, and "about us" pages written in pretty poor english. I just searched for hose the other day and the first few pages of brands were: amayrose, JOOIKOS, Zalotte, Amazon Basics, Hooshing, FOXEASE, HAUEA, Knoikos, TUNHUI, POYINRO, HIYUTOY.

The second one gets caught for fake reviews, just put the name through another random generator and back up.

Trust is eroding, but every time we try and use an Amazon competitor we come crawling back. When do viable alternatives emerge?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by jfim on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:11PM (#27077420)
> Trust is eroding, but every time we try and use an Amazon competitor we come crawling back. When do viable alternatives emerge?

Out of curiosity, why do you come back to Amazon? Is it the delivery speed, price, or something else?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by r00fus on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:42AM (#27077093)
Amazon has billions of dollars in profits. That they don't spend a small portion of this on curating their seller base tells me they see the fraud as something that helps them.

Or that Amazon can't move beyond their startup mentality of growth uber alles. Perhaps the best move at this point is not to continue their existing approach, and redefine their storefront to something other than a nicer Aliexpress.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dazc on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:30AM (#27075636)
'This makes me wonder why Amazon, in all their analytical genius, isn't cracking down on this when it's so blatantly obvious.'

Cynically, turn a blind-eye to misdemeanours of third-party sellers so long as there is data to be mined. Gradually replicate best-selling merchandise through your own-brand labels and then slowly dispose of the third-party sellers whilst retaining evidence of how they were systematically breaching the program terms in order to mitigate any chance of a class-action law suit.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by unloco on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:00PM (#27077275)
I wish I didnt read this. Now I feel dirty because it's exactly what's happening.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by ryantgtg on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:09PM (#27078898)
I also think there’s an element of balancing investments and returns. If Amazon is missing out (or “losing”) $50 million per year from eroded trust, then they should invest $49.9 million in fighting the fraud regaining that trust. But they need not invest more.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by shagie on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:27AM (#27075601)
> These aren't to be confused with the indiscriminate idiots who can't be bothered to use their brains, who leave mindless reviews such as "This is junk but it was cheap and kinda works... 5 stars!" Right.

I wouldn't say that they were indiscriminate nor not bothered to use their brains. One of the all too often seen things is a card for "leave a 5 star review and get a $10 amazon gift card" in the package.

Yes, its part of an effort to get 5 star reviews since the sorting of the product on amazon is more important than the text in the reviews below the fold. Yes, that's unscrupulous on both the buyer's and the seller's part.

But it is not indiscriminate or brainless on the part of the reviewer. It's selfish.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by JKCalhoun on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:24AM (#27076217)
And yet! And yet, like Google, Amazon now prefixes my search results with "Amazon's Choice" or some other marketing crap.

Man, I remember when you could trust reviews, search for an item, filter anything below 4 stars and get a decent, reliable list of products to choose from. You felt like you had some of the best damn kitchen knives your budget could afford.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by geocrasher on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:30AM (#27075631)
True, but "Selfish indiscriminate idiots" just doesn't have the same ring to it ;-)
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by GordonS on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:20AM (#27076156)
> These are then immediately followed by a 1 star review along the lines of "This is the biggest piece of junk I've ever bought online. Will be returning to Amazon. DO NOT BUY!"

Sometimes I wonder about even these ones though - they could have been written by those with a competing product being sold on Amazon.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by JKCalhoun on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:22AM (#27076185)
Yeah, exactly. And now suddenly the whole review feature of Amazon is dead.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by thereddaikon on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:34AM (#27075661)
Companies are amoral, they will usually only do something if there is profit. Amazon has no reason to crack down on fake reviews because they don't effect their bottom line either way. They want people to buy stuff using their site, they don't really care what it is they buy as long as they keep buying. There isn't a viable alternative so competition isn't the issue. So they can get away with a lot before people choose to leave.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by tsm on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:43AM (#27075744)
> Amazon has no reason to crack down on fake reviews because they don't effect their bottom line either way.

For various things (certain electronics/peripherals, certain tools) I deliberately avoid Amazon because I want something I can trust and don't have energy to decide which of the fifteen similar-looking things on Amazon is well-made and which is a fake or just crap.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by beardbound on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:50AM (#27075822)
I don't buy very much on Amazon anymore. Mostly name brand stuff that isn't often counterfeited. Guitar strings, books, moisturizer and such. It is still very good for grabbing random widgets (I just bought a knob puller for my guitars). Other than that I mostly order from places that I know stock quality product. Sur La Table for cooking stuff comes to mind.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bluGill on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:57AM (#27075908)
The problem comes when you don't know. I needed a new battery for my Dyson vacuum - out of stock at Dyson, but online has a lot of third parties for half the price (and often more capacity) - but what do I trust as real? I ended up at Amazon because they will probably ship me something and if it doesn't work I have a chance to return it. I was tempted to try that Vietnamese company directly, but how do I know?
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by cgriswald on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:10AM (#27076773)
Trust is how you know. I trust Target, Best Buy, whomever, to sell me an actual Dyson battery. I’ve never had any problems with any company not taking an online return (except once with Amazon charging me for a replacement for a ~$10 item they said was delivered but wasn’t). Amazon doesn’t really stand out in that regard these days.

That Vietnamese company with the 3x capacity:price ratio is probably selling junk. There are just so many more junk sellers (at least by name—maybe a handful operating all those names). So it boils down to taking a gamble when the odds are against you, getting lucky, and building a relationship or going to a retailer you trust already.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bluGill on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:07PM (#27077360)
Those I trust that would sell me the battery I need are buying from Dyson and so out of stock. They also charge 2x for a smaller battery. I'm left with janky brands: either from amazon or from janky companies.

I've had great luck in these situations buying from a small company that filtered out which cheap brands were good products. However I already have some other reason to trust those small companies.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by coldpie on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:45AM (#27076493)
I've mostly switched back from shopping online to shopping in local retail. If you're actually stocking shelves, instead of just running a digital flea market, you have to be choosy about what you stock. There's a ton of value in having someone filter out the trash and buy from reliable sources. I'm happy to pay more for that service, and usually I can get the item same-day since I'm already there in the store. For example you may have a local vacuum/appliance shop who has a direct relationship with Dyson and so can buy genuine parts on your behalf, or even have them in stock wholesale.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bluGill on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:09PM (#27077390)
There is a lot of truth to that, but it only applies where a local retailer stocks what you are interested in. There are a lot of parts that can't be got locally. There are a lot of hobbies that can't support a local store.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Tor3 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:45AM (#27076487)
I've long since stopped buying anything from Amazon except the occasional book. You can't trust reviews, but you also can't trust that the product you think you're buying is what it says it is. It doesn't really bother me that I "can't" buy from Amazon, there are lots of alternatives these days. There are even more local options than before.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Mauricebranagh on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:56AM (#27077222)
Often I will use amazon for research/discovery and might actually buy direct from another site which has a better price - gear for music in the UK for example.

You also can tell low quality products for the poor English/Grammar and knockoff similar brand names.

Amazons search really sucks quiet often a long tail search term will return product that in no way matches searcher intent.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sosborn on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:23PM (#27078404)
I always found it interesting how bad pricing is on Amazon for music gear. I assume they know that musicians will go to established shops (shout out to Sweetwater) and that people just getting into it won't know any better.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by totalZero on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:07PM (#27081401)
I agree with your overall point, but I wanted to comment on this:

> Companies are amoral

This is presented as a truism, but it is not true. Companies can be as moral as they wish to be. One of the reasons we have found ourselves auctioning off the arms and legs of American industry to China is this race-to-the-bottom mentality of "it's just business" that prioritizes short term profit over the long term viability of a company. Yet those companies have lobbyists, marketers, and advertisers, which they use to fight expensive battles in the marketplace and regulatory forum. Some companies even have the benefit of being under the same ownership umbrella as a venerated newspaper or popular cable news network.

Morality doesn't dissipate into thin air just because a few people throw their lot in together and try to make money. Apart from having financial incentives to do no harm to their customers or areas of service, companies have the capacity to make decisions based on reasoning about what is right and what is wrong. There is no fiduciary duty to do harm for the sake of profit.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sdgasg on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:01PM (#27077280)
> These are then immediately followed by a 1 star review along the lines of "This is the biggest piece of junk I've ever bought online. Will be returning to Amazon. DO NOT BUY!"

I really wish Amazon expose return rate for each product. That would be better indication of customer satisfaction.

Also I wish there was not such a stigma against returning products. That would be a good way to drive bad players out of business. A few times when I returned something I apologized too much but store employees said that I am doing them a favor by returning it because this is how they determine what to stop selling in their store and prevent shier people from buying junk products.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by FridayoLeary on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:17PM (#27078333)
I've spoken to Amazon sellers. They are forced to accept even the most ridiculous refund claims, because at the slightest smell of trouble, Amazon will ban their accounts. It's scary how their algorithms can literally ruin a persons livelihood.

I don't see why sellers should be worse off then buyers on Amazon, seeing as they're both customers.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sdgasg on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:17PM (#27080392)
There always will be certain percentage of people who will take advantage of return policies. I am sure at Amazon's scale, they can detect abusers easily. Most people hate to return stuff, and I think retailers take advantage of that, in general. That's why you see obvious lies in advertisements. Tesla's Autopilot mode? If society accepted returning defective or subpar products, then I doubt retailers will over-promise or sell subpar products.

Another option might be no returns at all. This way buyers will need to do their due diligence before buying and less likely to impulse purchase crap. Probably better for the society as a whole. Also things will be cheaper as retailers will not need to account for any returns.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by moksly on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:00AM (#27075940)
Maybe the reason they aren’t cracking down on it is exactly because of their analytical genius?

I’m not sure how Amazon operates in the US, but in Northern Europe it’s main target very clearly isn’t the informed customer, but the people who’s next step is going on one or the Chinese sites like wish. Maybe having a lot of fake reviews is simply better than having few reviews for their target audience? Hell, half the stuff on Amazon.de is resales of things that are clearly imported from China, so maybe Amazon’s role is simply to broker these wares in a manner that’s not as prone to getting the buyer scammed? Or maybe shit reviews is just better for sales than no reviews?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by anovikov on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:05AM (#27076009)
What's the problem with the Chinese sites? Whole large businesses are based on simply buying on them and reselling offline... Yes they sell crap, but these days, everyone sells crap. It's just a difference between poorly advertised cheap crap and well-advertised expensive crap.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by shawnz on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:30AM (#27076300)
I think that's exactly their point: Amazon uses fake reviews to make the poorly advertised cheap crap look like well advertised expensive crap. Therefore, you're more likely to trust Amazon instead of buying the exact same product from Aliexpress.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by ziml77 on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:35AM (#27075671)
> I usually search for reviews written by people who have had the product for a week or two and give the pros/cons along with a less than 5 star rating. That helps me avoid the fakes and the idiots.

Might only help somewhat with the fake reviews. From the "Avoiding Detection" section:

"Fraudulent businesses give reviewers specific criteria to follow to avoid detection on Amazon. These criteria are designed to present the reviews as legitimate. In this ElasticSearch server, vendors asked reviewers to wait a few days before publishing a review. They also request substantial reviews that are longer than just a few words, and may even outline certain details that should be included in the review."

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Arch-TK on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:08AM (#27076750)
I've also seen cases where items have been poorly reviewed but only because according to reviews section the people who bought the item were all incapable of using it correctly.

I saw an amazon review of someone complaining that a drill bit they bought got bent drilling through a brick. The picture they provided showed quite clearly that they had severely damaged and bent a brad-point drill bit (which is meant to be used for wood). The bending can also be explained by the fact that these drill bits are usually nowhere near as hard or brittle, presumably because if you ever try to use a drill bit intended for drilling through metal to drill wood you will quickly find how easy it is to snap it when it's in a thick bit of wood, and people don't usually drill deep holes in metal without a drill press to keep the drill going straight.

Oh, and the worst part of the amazon experience has to be the number of "Answers" to "Questions" where the answer is just: "Sorry, I don't know the answer."

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by dawnerd on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:09AM (#27076772)
Don’t forget the super obvious:

“Update: support contacted me…”

They just straight up PayPal you money to change your negative review. Trick is once they pay change your review back and say they paid you but Amazon will likely remove the review at that point.

One way to fix is to only allow verified purchases.

Amazon also needs to remove the ability for sellers to request reviews be removed.

Amazon also needs to be less strict on negative reviews. Right now it doesn’t seem there’s any moderation on five star but if you put 1 star they really don’t approve them much. Most of mine have been declined.

They need to stop sellers from taking over older product pages or switching what product a page is sold on. There’s this common scam where they will sell a legit gizmo and get high reviews them swap it for the junk scam item. No idea why they let this happen as it seems so obvious but who knows.

Also need to really ramp up moderation of third party sellers. Start being picky about what they allow to be sold. Anything sold in the sad card category needs to be manually verified.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by irjustin on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:55AM (#27076606)
The fast test is to see how many 2-5 stars vs 1 star reviews exist.

If the 1 stars has a bump vs the rest, you better know it's got a ton of fake reviews.

Legit products have a relatively smooth curve "long tailing" into 1 star.

Soon though, the scam reviewers will start smoothing the curve out and then I don't know what to do anymore.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by moftz on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:25AM (#27076231)
I always like seeing the most recent reviews since it can sometimes show that people have started receiving knockoffs or that there's been a rapid change in quality of a product. The most helpful review is like months to a year old so it sometimes doesn't accurately reflect the product anymore. Some people really are just idiots and either purchased something very cheap expecting high quality or they give high ratings for a product when they outline serious flaws in the review.

I usually don't buy random junk off of amazon all the time like some do so when I make a purchase, I already know exactly what I want and it's something totally necessary.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by PragmaticPulp on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:36AM (#27075688)
> For example, a product gets a lot of 5 star reviews stating that the buyer bought it for their child/relative/friend and they are just sure that they will love it... 5 stars! Or "I just got this delivered yesterday and I haven't used it yet but it looks really great!"... 5 stars.

Exclamation points are the giveaway in most fake reviews.

The same goes for Glassdoor. The more exclamation points in a 5-star review of a company, the more likely it was written by an HR person or the CEO.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Fnoord on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:48AM (#27075802)
Another suspicious element is the extremes of 1 and 5. At best its a 'you either love it or hate it', at the very least it is controversial. Amazon could flag it as such.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by BeFlatXIII on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:11PM (#27078250)
Don’t forget the one-star reviews for shipping problems. “Arrived broken because the box was smashed in half” is still marginally more useful than “arrived three days late”. They’re both irreverent when comparing the products themselves.

For that matter, buying USB charging hubs is a nightmare. The reviews are identical on every single one: there’s always at least one who overloaded theirs and complained that their house burnt down.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by markwkw on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:06PM (#27081824)
I’m not sure any of this is obvious. I have observed my relatives leave reviews just like the one you described as fraudulent. They are older folks who don’t get what the point of reviews is. Sometimes they will leave reviews like: „cheap and arrived in 1 day” which completely misses the point of what product reviews should be. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be so sure that „this is complete junk” review is genuine or perhaps comes from the competitor who wants to hurt the rating of the product.

Just like sarcasm is really hard to detect in an online forum, even with human intelligence, and having some conversational context, I think determining reviewers true intent is really really hard.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by TulliusCicero on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:37PM (#27080597)
> This makes me wonder why Amazon, in all their analytical genius, isn't cracking down on this when it's so blatantly obvious.

It's probably one of those situations where it's obvious, but not provably so.

It's like when you pass a huge pile of random bike parts in a pile next to a homeless encampment: it's 100% a bike chop shop, duh, anyone can see that...but you can't prove that it's a chop shop just based off of what you saw, so police can't take action without substantial further investigation.

It's easy enough for us as to consumers to spot fake reviews, but can you prove that they're fake just because they're repetitive or awkwardly written or whatnot?

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by ww520 on Friday May 07, 2021 @02:02PM (#27078825)
I brought a product from Amazon and returned it since it’s defective. Posted a 3 star review, which I thought it’s fair.

For the next two months someone from the seller company constantly sent me emails offering a $30 gift card to me to change the rating to a 5 star. So those “it’s trash...5 star” are probably people being paid to change their initial review.

I’ve thought about taking their money but added in a statement in the review that the 5 star was a paid request from the seller, just to screw their practice a bit. But stopped fearing that Amazon might ban my account.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by jader201 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:20AM (#27076158)
> For example, a product gets a lot of 5 star reviews stating that the buyer bought it for their child/relative/friend and they are just sure that they will love it... 5 stars! Or "I just got this delivered yesterday and I haven't used it yet but it looks really great!"... 5 stars.

That doesn’t sound necessarily fake, that just sounds like humans being humans. You see this in many reviews on other sites, as well.

Not saying they’re not fake, but my understanding was that the fake reviews usually go through a little more effort than that.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Sebb767 on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:54AM (#27076600)
> These aren't to be confused with the indiscriminate idiots who can't be bothered to use their brains, who leave mindless reviews such as "This is junk but it was cheap and kinda works... 5 stars!" Right.

What's wrong with that? If you buy a pair of headphones for 2$, you simply can not expect good sound. But if it works well enough to hear what you need to hear, this sounds pretty fair.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sodality2 on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:00AM (#27076667)
I got $15 bluetooth headphones from a r/buildapcsales post, everyone in the comments said it would sound like shit, but I've been using them for over a year and I couldn't be happier. it's got noise cancellation, battery lasts for close to a week with my heavy usage, and it's got really good quality. Maybe just to me, but I'm young, so my ears shouldn't be that degraded yet. But I have gotten pairs for my friends and family and they are all happy. Sure, they aren't XM4's, but they are literally $15, and I have gotten way more than that in value.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by Xeronate on Friday May 07, 2021 @01:13PM (#27078275)
Objectively, I’m sure they aren’t great quality. You just don’t seem to care, which is great for you, but also doesn’t make your advice givers wrong. Have you ever tried $200 headphones to compare? Also you go back and forth on they are quality and they are only 15 dollars so what should I expect.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sodality2 on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:42PM (#27081650)
I didn't expect much but they sound great to me. I have tried XM4's and other higher end headphones but not for a long period of time (just a few hours). But I know I'm not that bad at determining quality so they are at least pretty decent.A
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by heavyset_go on Friday May 07, 2021 @12:56PM (#27078044)
What's the model?
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by sodality2 on Friday May 07, 2021 @06:45PM (#27081674)
Hetyre HT9's, they are now listed for $40 but were at one point $30 with a half-off coupon.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by slantyyz on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:45AM (#27075766)
The PayPal reimbursement thing has been going on since Amazon changed their review rules a couple of years ago.

If you ask me, the new Verified Purchase shill reviews since the rules changes are worse for shoppers than the shill reviews with disclaimers (which were always easy to spot and ignore).

It's a good example of "be careful what you wish for".

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by neop1x on Sunday May 09, 2021 @06:35AM (#27094850)
Looking at 1* or 2* reviews often says much more than total * count. But of course, sorting is often possible by total * only. Maybe sorting items by least amount of 1* and 2* would help.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by emodendroket on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:48AM (#27075800)
If you were going to write a fake review wouldn’t you praise the item instead of just writing one that makes you sound like an idiot who doesn’t get the purpose of a review?
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by delecti on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:52AM (#27075842)
A review that makes the author sound like an idiot still contributes to an item's star rating, and that's all a lot of people look at.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by emodendroket on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:53AM (#27075858)
Perhaps but if you’re paying you probably want it to be credible (the article describes vendors coaching people on what kind of reviews to write). I find it pretty plausible that people writing “bought it as a gift, haven’t gotten it yet!” kind of reviews are probably genuine.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by austinshea on Friday May 07, 2021 @11:19AM (#27076864)
It’s weird to see you gloss over the only interesting detail in this story, the hard evidence,

and then deep dive into conjecture, and your feelings.

Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by bruhhh on Sunday May 09, 2021 @11:05AM (#27096532)
This is a silly take. A lot of fake reviews actually have good levels of details, except the details are fabricated and/or exaggerated.
Re:Amazon Fake Reviews Scam Exposed in Data Breach by mschuster91 on Friday May 07, 2021 @09:25AM (#27075583)
In the pre-Internet world there would be someone at the store who would a) do a checkout of the product prior to listing and b) evaluate customer returns and act upon them, in order to protect the integrity of the store. Delivering crap would lead to consequences (in the worst case de-listing) for the vendor.

Amazon doesn't do either - sellers are allowed to put up basically everything that's legal to sell somewhere on the world (including propaganda materials for all kinds of questionable groups including right-wing terrorism), and they don't care at all about complaints from customers about fake products or shoddy quality.

They only seem to care when big media representatives short-circuit the system and raise a stink at the PR team.