News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by vegetablepotpie on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:09PM (#26583471)
> Cal Newport said it best in his book Deep Work: the ability to perform deep work is becoming increasingly rare at exactly the same time it is becoming increasingly valuable in our economy. As a consequence, the few who cultivate this skill, and then make it the core of their working life, will thrive.

The people who cultivate that skill, stay up late at night while everyone is asleep so they don’t get distracted. Then they come in late because they need sleep like every one else. As a consequence, deep thought workers are seen by their immediate and responsive counterparts as obtuse, eccentric, or worse: lazy and unable to manage their time.

This really comes down to the workers dilemma. Do you spend your time marketing your self to others and letting people know your accomplishments, or do you spend the time doing work that will benefit others? Deep thought workers will bias heavily towards work that will benefit others. This benefit is often non-obvious deep thought workers will run the risk that their peers, that are more connected and more reachable, will take the credit for the results.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by Swizec on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:15PM (#26583526)
> Do you spend your time marketing your self to others and letting people know your accomplishments, or do you spend the time doing work that will benefit others?

I like the luck surface area analogy for this.

Take a rectangle. Side A is "Quality of work". Side B is "How many people know about it". The surface area – A*B – is your luck and opportunity.

If you do amazing work and nobody knows about it, your luck is zero.

If you do terrible work and everyone knows about it, your luck is zero.

A square would be equal balance of A and B, which is okay but not to everyone's liking. You can get the same surface area with 2A and 0.5B. You can get a huge surface area with 2A and 1B.

For HN types, optimizing for big A and just enough B is easiest. We tend to err on the side of not enough B.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by biren34 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:18PM (#26584240)
I'd add that it really matters who know about your work. If a lot of people know you do good work, but they all have very similar skills sets, you get a lot less value than if only a few people with very different skill sets know about you. In that case, you get to become "their guy for X", and that generates a lot of opportunities.

In this case, you also get the benefit that both of you can get credit for the same work. Everyone will know them as "the guy who knows people who get things done" (i.e., good manager/leader) and you'll get credit as a great individual contributer. There's no competition for credit here.

It gets even better if the few people who know you as "their guy for X" are social supernodes--while we're all only 6 degrees of separation from each other, it's actually because a small percentage of us know tons of people, while the average is much less. If you become the "guy for X" for one of these supernodes, you're basically the "guy for X" for anyone who would ask them "hey, do you know a guy for X?"

In my career, I've had two of those types of people know me and my work--and between the two of them, they have generated almost every opportunity I've had in the past 10 years.

I could spend 50% of my time networking, and I doubt it would generate as much value as adding just one more social supernode that knows my work.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by waheoo on Thursday March 25, 2021 @10:00PM (#26588046)
Interesting, any tips on what to look out for identifying these people in the wild when you might not be able to work with them personally in the beginning?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by biren34 on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:20AM (#26588976)
Of the two I know, one is a general manager / executive type that surfs and used to be in a frat.

The other is a sales guy / stoner type, who always seems to have been to every new bar and restaurant and already know the owners by the time I've heard of the place.

These descriptions are just the two I know--but you get the idea. They genuinely value people, so it's not a chore for them to know people, and they never really "network". They just like people.

There's actually quite a lot of people with these kinds of traits. The trick, which is harder, is finding ones you respect and get along with, so you (the relative introvert) will keep up your end of the relationship.

A lot times, I see skilled specialists look down on the more generalists/people-oriented people as being some form of incompetent. Compared to the specialist in their field, they always are. The thing that makes these 2 special to me is that they're humble about their limitations in a way that makes really respect them. They're definitely not blowhards.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by waheoo on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:42AM (#26589661)
Thanks I think I know what you mean.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by zild3d on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:07PM (#26584756)
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by wrigby on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:56PM (#26583978)
I really like this model - thanks for sharing! A professor of mine drilled into us the idea that much of life is luck, but as he said (and I believe he was quoting someone else here) "the harder I work, the luckier I get."
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by javajosh on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:07PM (#26584763)
Well, this is true for any iterated game with upside and minor (only opportunity cost) downside: the more you play, the more you win.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by beckingz on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:34PM (#26583718)
The conjoined rectangle of success.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by mszcz on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:10PM (#26584147)
That just made my day!
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by birdyrooster on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:54PM (#26584621)
Damn you for beating me to this joke format. And I’m not deleting it.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by beckingz on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:36PM (#26585057)
Do we expand the rectangle to have a dimension for speed?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by ryandrake on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:07PM (#26584764)
I like this model, but I'd replace side B with "how much you self promote your work". Someone who's side A is 1 and side B is 20 has similar opportunity as someone whose side A is 20 and side B is 1. A talented developer who isn't great at self promotion gets the same luck as someone who doesn't know what they are doing at all but can talk a great talk and enchant the execs. Surely 10x10 is better but you can linearly make up for a lack of A with a surplus of B and vice versa.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by maroonblazer on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:05AM (#26588638)
>I'd replace side B with "how much you self promote your work".

I don't agree. The problem with "how much you self promote your work" is that if you're not good at promoting your work then you'll still be at, or near, 0. Whereas "How many people know your work" focuses on the outcome. Nearly everyone is promoting their work, not all of which gets noticed. How will you do it in a way that gets noticed?

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by devtul on Thursday March 25, 2021 @07:05PM (#26586768)
A friend told me a new hire spent weeks drawing diagrams on the board and explaining to coworkers how X feature should work, after two months of zero commits he was let go.

A perfect example of a -2 X 5, zero work done but great presentation, now the guy is infamous in our circle and no one would recommend him to be hired anywhere.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by d0mine on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:02AM (#26589753)
> zero work done

Knowing what should and should not be implemented (where to go) may be more important than being able to move in random directions.

Once requirements are clear, the implementation becomes easier.

Perhaps, the guy should be in the product team, not in devs.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by amelius on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:30PM (#26584388)
This is a fuzzy implementation of the boolean AND operator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by SkyMarshal on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:33PM (#26585025)
This square needs to be a cube because there is a third important dimension - time.

Amazing work requires focused effort over time, first to complete, and then for lots of people to discover it.

And the time dimension is not linear, but has an acceleration. The more amazing the work, the longer it will take to complete, and during this time acceleration of people knowing about it will be near zero.

But once completed and made public, the more amazing it is the faster the acceleration of discovery.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by Wowfunhappy on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:55PM (#26584636)
> If you do terrible work and everyone knows about it, your luck is zero.

Well, really, it’s less than zero, since now you also have a bad reputation you’ll need to dig out of. :)

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by birdyrooster on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:53PM (#26584617)
A square is nothing more than the conjoined triangles of success.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by prawn on Friday March 26, 2021 @07:13AM (#26590717)
Completely true. It's a serious risk to be creating great things, impressing yourself but never making time to share with anyone else. In the modern world, you can't assume that your potential audience will see what you put out either - you need to repeat the news with a bit of variance, catch different timezones or people who don't see everything in their feed. Share a behind-the-scenes, share the finished product, a recap or case study, etc.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by chris11 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:48PM (#26587970)
> If you do amazing work and nobody knows about it, your luck is zero.

But I don't think that implies the type of marketing social media apps gets you is valuable. For instance, I'd think that giving talks at conferences would be much more valuable than trying to become a LinkedIn influencer. I think you can work on networking and marketing in a way that limits distractions.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by hammock on Saturday March 27, 2021 @11:20AM (#26602925)
Ok, how do we take this analogy and qualify the types of opportunity you get as a result? If you do mediocre work and everyone knows about it, do you get a lot of mediocre opportunities? Compared to someone who does better work, and gets a smaller number of, but GREAT, opportunities? How to value that piece?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by sudosudo on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:31AM (#26589909)
Honestly yes!

in summary:

know. Your. Audience. Let them know , but speak to them in their terms. Communication is not a display of hubris, it’s a two way street

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:18PM (#26584243)
I did exactly this early in my career: Stayed up late, got work done outside of business hours, suffered the consequences.

Later I started being more assertive about my time.

Meeting request in the middle of my core work hours? Decline as busy, suggest to move it to a lunch meeting or offer to call the person after working hours (Everyone chooses lunch meeting instead of after hours).

People tapping me on the shoulder to ask a question while I'm wearing headphones? Before they can speak, I politely say that I'm in the middle of something I need to finish and ask if it's urgent. It's rarely urgent, but people quickly learn that it doesn't pay off to interrupt me.

Constant deluge of Slack messages? I set a status that I was busy but would be available to chat during certain hours. When I'm pinged, I quickly respond that I'm in the middle of something but I'll get back to them later.

The key was to realize that taking charge of my own time didn't have the negative consequences I thought it would. In my mind, I thought declining people's meeting invites or refusing to prioritize other people's demands would end my career, so I let people walk all over my schedule. Reality couldn't have been further from the truth. Nearly everyone was very understanding and very few people interpreted my responses as rude. Obviously you need to be polite and professional, no matter how aggravating the interruptions are.

Carving out dedicated meeting and socializing time was also important. It's unlikely that I'm going to sit in one place for 8 straight hours anyway, so allocating two blocks of time each day for meetings and catching up was helpful. Making it predictable and communicating it to others made it easy for everyone else to understand. I even marked it on my shared calendar.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by hinkley on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:42PM (#26584509)
> People tapping me on the shoulder to ask a question while I'm wearing headphones? Before they can speak, I politely say that I'm in the middle of something I need to finish and ask if it's urgent. It's rarely urgent, but people quickly learn that it doesn't pay off to interrupt me.

You can often shorten this to, “can you come back in fifteen minutes?” This is less likely for them to try to pick your brain about whether their problem is urgent or not.

Of course it depends on who is asking. If the head of IT is standing there, and you don’t usually hear from IT, then it could be something bad. If your intern looks like they just set the building on fire, also might be important.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by at-fates-hands on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:31AM (#26589024)
One of the first companies I worked at (a startup) had a strict protocol on how to ask someone for help.

The chain was basically:

a) ping them over IM. Do not grenade them with your problem. Ask first if they have time to help you:

No? Try fixing your problem on your own for another 20-30 minutes.

Yes? Be short and to the point. If its a coding issue, list all of the solutions you've tried first and what the issue is.

Allow the person you are asking to set the parameters of the help:

a) how fast can this be done? Can I do this over IM?

b) does this need a webex or meeting to figure out?

c) how much time will the meeting require to solve problem? Estimate and go from there.

d) do any of the previous infringe on your current work? Have a person set up a meeting for later in the day and then leave them alone.

It was literally taboo to go to someone's desk and ask them for help. It was hammered into people that work comes first and any distraction costs time and money. Even when you go over and tap someone on the shoulder? They have to mentally disengage with their work to speak to you. That's precious time they are losing. Same thing after they've completed even a 5 min conversation, they have to get back to whatever they were doing which also takes time. There was some study that said just a handful of these interruptions can cause a company millions. When you're at a startup, every dollar wasted costs the bottom line.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by tremon on Friday March 26, 2021 @05:50AM (#26590309)
a) ping them over IM. Do not grenade them with your problem. Ask first if they have time to help you

This wouldn't work with me. I don't respond until I know what I'm saying yes to.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by corobo on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:24PM (#26585579)
You became more assertive of your time by giving up lunch and off hours?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday March 25, 2021 @06:44PM (#26586569)
No, I enjoy having lunch with my coworkers. Good way to catch up without as much wasted time as a meeting.

If you prefer to eat lunch alone, adjust accordingly. I was providing loose guidance, not a strict prescription.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by corobo on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:59PM (#26588041)
I'll be honest I didn't even see it as you recommending any action at all. Each to their own and that I guess
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by meow112012 on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:44AM (#26589086)
Me either. Getting some critical job done is impossible during normal working time when I get a lot of direct questions over slack and have to spend my time on meeting and communication.

The hard thing is that it's not easy to explain critical job' result to the team. Most people simply think that's [my] job.

The very annoying thing to me is that people tend to ask via PM. Why don't they just ask question on common group where there are a lot of people in the team can help? Oh... that's then Slack @here and @channel are problems. They are using that too much, and people don't care anymore lolz

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by imhoguy on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:05AM (#26589507)
I just delay any response for any new topic or I do not respond at all if that is just "Hi XYZ". Often I see "nevermind/found it/sorted it out" after a while.

My rule of thumb is 15 minutes. I also never send "Hi XYZ" alone and then form a question. "Hi" is part of question message (Shift+Enter ftw!) and often while forming the question sentence with some guiding information I manage to find an answer too. No message send, win-win.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by t-writescode on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:37PM (#26585069)
The way you describe the harm it causes to the employees sounds, to me, like a managerial problem.

My company has several of those "works late, comes in late" employees, and none of them are seen as lazy.

We have managers that recognize and re-enforce to the other teams the work that we do and the people we unblock and the wins that we're able to make.

I just completed one of my own reviews where I was lauded loudly as a person that unblocks other people - while my own official tasks are relatively light because my primary task has become unblocking others - and a coworker was recently promoted due to her weird, off-hour work.

Why? Management understood our strengths and re-enforces them, protects us from nay-sayers and rejoices openly about the work that we do.

That way, we can keep working in the areas we're good at, in the way we're good at it, and we're given the recognition for our work through our managers.

With a good manager, you shouldn't have to be constantly trumpeting your own skill, they should be revealing it for you.

Managers, and I'm sure many of you are here on Hacker News, this is one of your many, many jobs.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by hintymad on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:36PM (#26584443)
I also read Cal Newport and am pursuing the ability to perform deep work. In the meantime, I notice that the marginal return of deep work in a big enough company is questionable, especially for high-level ICs. A high-level IC spends most of the time in discussion and meetings, and people expect such person to make quick decisions or to assert influence within a single meeting. Therefore, the most influential ICs are those who have strong intuition and strong communication skills. Deep work can still pay off, but one needs to go really deep on both big pictures and on technical depth. I mean Wernher von Braun deep or Jeff Dean deep, which very few people possess. Maybe this is not about deep work, but about how challenging it is to be an IC.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by nondave on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:39PM (#26584484)
What does IC mean here?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by adamesque on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:43PM (#26584518)
individual contributor (aka someone judged on their own work output, not the output of a team like a manager or director)
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by posed on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:08PM (#26585404)
I first read it as Integrated chip, lol.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by augustk on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:09PM (#26585415)
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by hintymad on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:37PM (#26585731)
My bad. You’re right, and thanks for the link. Unfortunately the window for editing is closed.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by augustk on Friday March 26, 2021 @10:48AM (#26592795)
It's okay to use a non-standard abbreviation if you spell it out the first time it's used followed by the abbreviation in parentheses, like "individual contributor (IC)", and then use the abbreviation in the rest of the text.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by kawfey on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:43PM (#26584517)
Individual contributor.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by hazeii on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:33PM (#26585024)
As Harry Truman said [0], "It's amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit".

[0] https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/harry_s_truman_109615

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by bluGill on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:33PM (#26585027)
The problem with deep thought is you can waste a lot of time thinking about something that is no longer important. If your project is doomed to be canceled for reason outside your control there is no difference in output between someone who does nothing (ie should be fired for lack of work) and someone spends his days working hard.

Those who do better networking tend to be onto those trends. They will find out about opportunities where 10 minutes of focused work will net a large [sale, or other win for the company] for the. 10 minutes of the right work can be far more valuable than a whole month of deep focused work. (though that 10 minutes probably builds on - and takes credit for - someone else's months of deep work)

There is no clear win here. However if you like to be a deep focus person you should force yourself to spend some time every week figuring out the pulse of the company so you are at least doing useful work.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by 1123581321 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:11PM (#26587771)
There's a Richard Hamming quote, along those lines, that I like. I do keep in mind he was surrounded by brilliant and stimulating people at Bell Labs. Some closed door or deep work is necessary to shut out the truly unproductive aspects of modern office work. Doing this without seeming rude is an art.

"I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on; all the hard work you do is sort of tangential in importance. He who works with the door open gets all kinds of interruptions, but he also occasionally gets clues as to what the world is and what might be important. Now I cannot prove the cause and effect sequence because you might say, ``The closed door is symbolic of a closed mind.'' I don't know. But I can say there is a pretty good correlation between those who work with the doors open and those who ultimately do important things, although people who work with doors closed often work harder. Somehow they seem to work on slightly the wrong thing - not much, but enough that they miss fame."

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by MattGaiser on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:14PM (#26583522)
> the people who cultivate that skill, stay up late at night while everyone is asleep so they don’t get distracted.

This is what I like about work from home. I can use the distracting and busy day to sleep and deal with admin tasks like email and work until 3AM instead if I really need to get stuff done.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by screye on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:11PM (#26585430)
> The people who cultivate that skill, stay up late at night while everyone is asleep so they don’t get distracted

Haha, I feel so called out. I have been up for 2 days straight at this point, and it has been incredibly productive.

Sometimes I wish I could summon my ability to do deep work during the day, but it is just so hard with all the meetings and ideations (I love them too, but can't stay up 24x7). My body can't take this kind of late-night abuse anymore, so I feel like I am running on borrowed time.

Hopefully I will learn to do focus work in the day at some point. Has anyone here successfully made that transition ?

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by danielheath on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:18PM (#26585503)
I have; I found that when in a (physical) space where I could guarantee nobody would interrupt me, I can work like it’s night.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by groby_b on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:42PM (#26583823)
If you work on a team, being reachable is part of your work. There are (few) opportunities for solo thinking, and Cal is lucky to find one. I hope you find one for yourself.

But as a team, the answer "I can't reach the expert because they secluded themselves" is not acceptable. Because as a senior figure on a team, you job is to become a force multiplier for others, not a solo force. Not to do work that magnanimously benefits others, but work that makes others better.

You need occasional deep work time, sure. But the whole "I must disconnect from everything, always" thing does not work for any social endeavor - and most meaningful things are of a scope that requires a team.

I wish I had a better answer here, because I too like thinking quietly for long times - but I also see that I fulfill a useful function when I'm reachable, and ultimately, you get paid for usefulness to the larger endeavor.

(This points strongly towards solo/entrepreneur tracks if isolation is your only useful mode of work, but even then, you'd be well advised to find a partner who handles the people parts)

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by Joeri on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:21PM (#26584292)
As a technical team lead I’ve struggled more than once with the trade off between getting meaningful deep work done for myself and getting others on with their work.

Over the years I’ve come to realize it is not as clear cut of a trade off. Teams can be coached to be self-reliant and to distribute knowledge effectively, so that they have fewer urgent questions. I try to proactively take myself out of the critical path as much as possible. Documenting thoroughly is one way. Another is to use channels for question-asking and encouraging the use of the channel instead of dm. There’s a higher chance a person can answer who is not interrupted, and because everyone passively follows the channel the knowledge is shared more effectively.

Decision-making is always the tricky part. Junior devs need constant handholding and it is more about a lack of lived experience than a lack of knowledge. You need enough senior devs so that the load of constant micro-decisions for the juniors can be spread around.

The thing is that getting to the point where there is enough time for deep work is a process that takes time and that is easily undone by team churn. IMHO the only way to sidestep the matter entirely is to have a lieutenant who handles all the urgent matters, but I’ve only had that once and in retrospect it was hardly a fair situation.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by BlargMcLarg on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:54PM (#26584622)
Yet we're increasingly figuring out not all things have to be synchronized, and many people can save themselves while thrown in the deep as long as there is documentation.

It's not that I disagree with the premise. Rather, I believe as a society, we've largely taught ourselves helplessness and failed to document properly how things are supposed to work (both when requesting features and checking how existing things work, both functionally and in code). Add short tenures onto this, and it makes for a system which needs a lot more synchronized "are you available" time than need be.

Additionally, maybe I'm biased, but many juniors don't need as much mentorship as the average senior dev here likes to claim once they're settled in. Again, it might be backfiring in terms of learned helplessness, where they won't try and solve their own problems first. Furthermore, it stimulates not documenting processes in a way that newcomers can learn, where seniors become glorified encyclopedias. Most juniors I come across stumble here: not when the problem can be found online, but when the problem is a piece of domain knowledge / in-house framework documented extremely poorly, and requires an extensive amount of time to communicate.

Combating this may cut down required mentoring significantly. Now imagine you might be able to cut down regular mentoring to a 1-2h window. On a regular 8 hour day, that leaves a whole 6-7h to plan at your own convenience. This could have different setups as well (two days with high accessibility, three days of access only in critical cases). Most of all, as long as we don't make the deep dive and continue our existing ideas, we're only setting ourselves up for a selffulfilling prophecy. It's only after we try, we can accurately make such bold claims.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by tehjoker on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:57PM (#26584667)
I don't know who defines what work is but "being reachable" at all times seems like an arbitrary line in the sand. It's pretty annoying to be dictated what is and isn't possible.

For example, what about "being reachable" four days a week, or 7 out of 8 hours a day, or using the toilet?

Bright line rules like these are usually fake and promoted by people that benefit from them.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by peruvian on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:46PM (#26584541)
This is my main issue with Newport's work. It's all great advice but not much of it applies to a regular office worker.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by FalconSensei on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:33PM (#26584422)
Exactly. Of course, if you are working as an expert - and not an expert mentor - you will need time for deep work. But it's a balance of times when you can't be interrupted, and times when you should.

Ultimately, talking to the team, scheduling 'busy' times on your calendar, or letting people know in the morning that you need a day to focus on something can really make a difference. Also, setting up expectations on how long can it take for you to reach back in matters that are not urgent. And urgencies that are critical for the business always have a preference over deep work, but if the team knows you are busy, they can think if they really need you to solve it or give instructions.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by dmingod666 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:31PM (#26585012)
Not disagreeing with you entirely, but deep work can be done in office hours as well.

Nice noise cancelling headphones, schedule a chunk of 1-1.5 hours, go "do not disturb" in chat and don't check mail during this time. You can get decent amount of work done in one block. Try to get 2-3 of these blocks during the day, that would be pretty decent.

You could use a Pomodoro timer app if you want to track the blocks.

Manic time is also a great app, it keeps track of all the windows you have active, so then you can go back and tag the chunks of your time and do an analysis on when you went down a rabbit hole and for how long.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by billti on Thursday March 25, 2021 @07:01PM (#26586732)
I agree with this. As a manager I have a lot of meetings and few long stretches for 'deep work' in my day. Yet when I take on some work that truly absorbs me, I find the time for it. Non-essential meetings get postponed, email/Teams can survive an hour or two without a response, HackerNews will still be there at the end of the day ;-) , etc.

I do feel like a lot "distractions" in work hours are avoidable. Some of them are just habit or a dopamine fix or procrastination - kind of like checking Facebook or Twitter on your phone when something else isn't focusing your attention fully.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by secfirstmd on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:09PM (#26584777)
This so explains me. Struggle to concentrate in day times but at night I'm laser focused. Staying up late and only getting up later in mornings. Which for whatever reason most organisations and people are awful at accommodating.

At most organisations I've been part of I've adding some of, if not the, highest value on projects, ideas etc by far. However they never see that and focus on the stupid morning stuff so often.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by robinsonrc on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:13PM (#26583515)
Why is getting up early not considered?
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:18PM (#26583557)
Some do. My father did. But it's just as bad, because then you're seen as leaving early. Or you don't leave early, and are working more hours, which has a cost.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by tanseydavid on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:25PM (#26583630)
My personal experience is that the notion "I will go in early today and leave at an appropriately early time," fails to work out as planned 90-95% of the time.

But I really can only blame myself for this.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by EvilEy3 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:28PM (#26583657)
Pre corona I was arriving at 7~ and leaving at 15. You can definitely do it.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by sillyquiet on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:00PM (#26584026)
Same. This was my schedule too, and maybe I got lucky in my workplace, but after socializing about it, nobody had any problem with the leaving earlier part.

Was easy too, 'can we meet at 4:30' 'Hmm, I come in pretty early, and like to get out the door by 3:30, can we do it earlier?' was a typical exchange.

Also, depending on your office arrangement your team-mates just know you get in early when they always see you in the office when they get in. But, ymmv, I am sure it varies from workplace to workplace.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by elwell on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:59PM (#26584017)
It almost seems easier to pull off if you leave exceptionally early (3pm or earlier). E.g., if you leave at 4:15pm, that doesn't give any reminder that you started early.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by wsinks on Thursday March 25, 2021 @06:41PM (#26586545)
You have the discipline to use the 24 hour nomenclature all the time. I applaud you! I had to read this twice, and loved it so much I had to comment
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by matwood on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:02PM (#26584707)
I find early better for few reasons, but primarily because not all work hours are the same. Waking up, working out, then immediately doing deep work before checking my phone, internet, or anything else almost feels like a super power. The best work hours of my day are actually spent working, and are almost never interrupted. Even if I do have to attend a late meeting or something, my brain is in the wind down mode and shouldn't need to wind back up. This means it's easier to fall asleep, and repeat the next day.

I used to do the stay up late thing, and while work did get done, it's nowhere close to what I get done in the morning.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by MattGaiser on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:18PM (#26583564)
I have tried this. Woke up at 1AM and went to bed at 7PM for one internship.

The challenge was that there are very rarely obligatory early morning events. There are often late day events and issues.

If I wake up early, I can't stay until 9PM without being miserable. But something requiring me until 9PM is far more likely than something at even 8AM.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by SketchySeaBeast on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:37PM (#26583752)
Why not something less extreme? I start work at 6-7 and that usually buys me a couple of really productive hours before people start popping up. It also means you can still do things at 9PM without compromising your sleep patterns too much.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by matwood on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:10PM (#26584786)
1AM is extreme. I wouldn't even call that waking up early, more like just staying up all night. When I was in high school I worked 10PM to 7AM, and that was terrible. But, I was able to, at a young age learn exactly how much sleep I need and what it took for me to sleep (pitch black darkness - eye mask).

Now, I consider 5-6AM early and that's when I typically wake up - haven't used an alarm in years.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by bluGill on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:24PM (#26584923)
Depends, I know have to work with people in India. Me getting up at 7am best matches their work hours.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by elliekelly on Thursday March 25, 2021 @06:14PM (#26586213)
I can stay up working as late as I'd like - when I'm done with my deep focus is entirely up to me. When I get into the office early the end of my deep focus is entirely out of my control. It ends when my coworkers decide to come in and start bothering me.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by pitaj on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:19PM (#26584258)
A lot (most?) people find staying up late easier than getting up early.

Also, if your waking hours are say 0800-2300 then you can easily work late and move your leisure time to the morning without changing your sleep schedule.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by paublyrne on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:39PM (#26584473)
> Also, if your waking hours are say 0800-2300 then you can easily work late and move your leisure time to the morning without changing your sleep schedule.

Not necessarily. Early birds like me find it difficult to work in the evenings, despite being technically awake. I find it way easier to get up early than to stay up late, which can actually feel like torture sometimes.

As for the split, I've read it's more like 10% for each extreme with the majority in the middle, though I can't find a reference, and I suspect it's very hard to actually know.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by ryanmarsh on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:14PM (#26584817)
Some do, although many deep workers circadian rhythms naturally skew later. There's plenty of research on this you can find.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by jariel on Thursday March 25, 2021 @06:15PM (#26586226)
Brilliantly true.

I've found that it is possible to do during the day, but you kind of have to put your phone away, and also clamp down on browser.

HN is unfortunately a distraction!

Make yourself 'feel' like it's a Monday or Friday Holiday, where nobody is in the office, so they can't bother you, but it's not a 'weekend' either. Those days are productive.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by ysavir on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:22PM (#26584903)
This is not a fair portrayal. This is one way to go about it, and a way which avoids the problem while running up other costs. And there are better ways.

Better ways such as keeping your phone in another room. Building the discipline to not be checking email or other sites frequently throughout the day (on phone or in the browser). Muting notification sources. And ultimately, taking control of your time.

The people that struggle with deep work are the people that struggle with unplugging, and/or live with a fear of missing out. Conquer this, and cultivating this skill becomes a much more manageable and achievable challenge.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by at-fates-hands on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:17AM (#26588965)
>> As a consequence, deep thought workers are seen by their immediate and responsive counterparts as obtuse, eccentric, or worse: lazy and unable to manage their time.

Literally just had this on my year end review. I won't go into the useless stack ranking the company I work for uses, but none of my project work was ever late (it was actually either right on time or early) but because I'm a night owl and do a majority of my work off hours, I'm considered "unavailable" when other regular folks need to get a hold of me because I'm not online at 7am like everyone else. Yet any issues are resolved in a timely manner regardless.

I literally got a lower rating because my manager said there was a "lack of effort" during business hours and that other team members said I was "aloof" and "not present" during long managerial meetings.

I had to spend most of this week refuting what my manager wrote on my review since if I decided to move departments, other managers will look at it since its a typical process managers to do when hiring internal candidates. Pulling in copious amounts of documentation to refute what he was saying cost me a days work, but in the end, I had no other choice.

I'm still bitter about the whole thing.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by freebuju on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:35AM (#26589340)
Part of being an employee means towing the company line. Even when you don't feel like it. It's a sham you are collectively expected to endure. Is it any wonder that the most successful employees are the ones who succeed in reading and adjusting themselves to this requirement?

That said. I feel and connect with your rant at a personal level. For reasons I won't share on this post.

I know you didn't ask for any advice and yours is just a rant. Based on your review and what you say i.e you had to spend a day just to refute it. It would be wise to increase interviews with other prospective employers and other professional opportunities.

Your efforts are much better spent where they are valued a bit more than this.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by unixhero on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:18AM (#26589570)
Walk slower or quit. The efforts you have put in have not been apprechiated.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by pc86 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:00PM (#26584699)
You're making huge assumptions that a) people who cultivate this skill are late night folks and not morning people; b) people who cultivate this skill are unable to do deep work during the day; c) even ignoring the fallacies in A and B, that these folks' counterparts are blind to their accomplishments and assume they're lazy because they come in late; d) that someone cannot be capable of both completing meaningful deep work and be lazy and unable to manage their time.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by chrisweekly on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:31PM (#26585006)
I am living proof that it's possible to change from a night owl to an early riser. I used to stay up till midnight or 1am as often as not. By nature? and lifelong habit, for over 40 years I was in the "stay up late, sleep in to compensate" camp. But a couple years ago someone I respect and admire challenged me to reset the pattern. I started setting a daily alarm and jumping into a brief ice-cold shower at 5am. It only took a few days to acclimate, and nearly everything about my days changed for the better. I need 7h of sleep so if I'm not lights-out by 10p, I "sleep in" to 530 or 6. I recommend it highly. The time I spend between 5-7a is, almost without exception, much better spent than 10p-12a would ever have been. YMMV but my point is, being a "morning person" can be a choice.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by pc86 on Friday March 26, 2021 @09:09AM (#26591673)
Same - part of it may have been natural shifts in circadian rhythms - in college I'd often be up until 3am during the week, not even particularly busy. Just not tired, so I stayed up. Any class up to and including 10am was an active struggle to get to. Now I am regularly up before 5am to work out and typically start work around 6:30.

People absolutely have natural tendencies one way or the other, but if you want to change you can. Too many people approach it as if they're stuck in one or the other.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by balfirevic on Thursday March 25, 2021 @11:37PM (#26588519)
> I used to stay up till midnight or 1am as often as not.

That's not a night-owl (midnight I mean, 1am might barely be).

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by chrisweekly on Friday March 26, 2021 @06:42AM (#26590551)
Fair enough. But FTR the 12-1a habit was itself a form of restraint against my prior tendency to stay up much later than that -- as a parent of school-aged kids, w/ no plausible option to sleep past 7a or so. Staying up till 3 or 4 and getting less than 4h sleep would've been a non-starter.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by balfirevic on Friday March 26, 2021 @09:00AM (#26591582)
Yeah, I feel the pain. I usually go to sleep between 3-5 and need 8-9 hours of sleep. If my work didn't allow for very flexible schedule I fear I'd also need to resort to extreme measures (cold showers - brrr).
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by dmingod666 on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:49PM (#26585190)
Yes, you can do deep work late at night.

The elephant in the room question is - "what are you doing during the time that is allocated for work?"

I think deep-work is then a secondary thing. The person needs to solve other more important problems first.

1) are you over-commiting? 2) Should you be more assertive with taking up more work? 3) Are you able to set expectations of people that wait for your work and then also communicate when there are delays? 4) Do you have problems delegating work? 5)...

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by tremon on Friday March 26, 2021 @07:05AM (#26590674)
b) people who cultivate this skill are unable to do deep work during the day;

For me, it was the other way around: inability to do deep work during the day (due to all the distractions already mentioned) forced me to cultivate a 10h-19h work schedule, with the accompanying sleep schedule (roughly from 01h-09h).

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by dqpb on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:20PM (#26584270)
Just move to the east coast and work for a company on the west coast. Problem solved.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by iamthirsty on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:27PM (#26584353)
From OP:

> The people who cultivate that skill, stay up late at night while everyone is asleep so they don’t get distracted.

So I don't think that solves the problem if everyone in your office is still awake during your (later) prime working hours, although it does solve the waking up later issue.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by eloisius on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:26AM (#26588733)
I agree with this sentiment. Even if you manage to get to bed at an early time, it seems like the modern workplace still doesn’t reward deep focus. It rewards frequent context switching, being constantly available to answer pings in slack, providing updates to managers just “checking in” with you, attending tons of meetings, and being able to juggle numerous things going on at once. I can adapt to all that, but the 1-2 hours of actual work time I could squeeze out of any given day didn’t allow for much deep focus.
Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by michaelcampbell on Friday March 26, 2021 @08:39AM (#26591357)
> The people who cultivate that skill, stay up late at night while everyone is asleep so they don’t get distracted.

cite? Your implication as stated above I believe has not been proven. Doesn't Cal go into some detail about people who have cultivated this skill; perform deep work, and then only do it for "normal" (or even more often, far less than "normal") work hours and thus have the rest of the working day to do whatever else they enjoy?

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by watwut on Thursday March 25, 2021 @04:22PM (#26584899)
In tech, people who were late are rewarded.

And in fact, you can do deep work at morning a much as late, there is literally no one in tech startup at the morning.

Re:Phones and apps reduce your ability to focus even when th... by throwaway888abc on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:48PM (#26584559)
Really well formulated. Love your explanation and pointers of worker dilemma.