The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will people say that the CCP staged that too? It's getting too ridiculous.
Cyrus Janssen, an expat who has worked in China for 12 years, blogged about this. I think he has a much more accurate view of what happened. Jack Ma was laying low, not jailed. And the rrason why his comments pissed off people is because the phase of development China is now in, rather than a generic "thou shall not criticize the party" https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh...
In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Yes they censor at the same time. Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not allowed. But at the same time they do listen, and for the past 20 years they've continuously reformed policy based on citizen's criticism on social media, or those submitted via official channels. The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rather than people.
This also applies to this latest incident. Yes it bugged a lot of people in the government, but at the same time they're really looking into the actual criticism made and whether there's a need for reform.
I am from China and I have family in China.
C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or the other, is it? This happens from time to time. We both know there's a list of famous and semi-famous people as long as your arm you haven't heard from in a while.
Where's Fan Bingbing? Where's the former head of Interpol, Meng Hongwei? [2] Think they too have discovered a sudden need for mainland medical treatment -- or do you think it's more likely they may have discovered a passion for mining minerals also?
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-jianhua-c...
[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-china-...
I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was considered a national security threat. I think you're painting a picture here that is very bizarre, and not supplying the context necessary to understand why.
During the HN submission about Ant's IPO, before it was halted. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.
As you can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540, I do try to reach out where the opportunity is available, even with those I might disagree with.
--
It seems you think this issue is particularly inflammatory to me (and others) because of "nationalistic interests," but for me it's much more about friendships. I have a group of Falun Gong practicing friends in Amsterdam, my math tutor was Taiwanese and had family who disappeared on the mainland, and I know a lot of people who were lucky enough to get out of China, including a very good family friend.
On the other hand, an opthamologist who almost treated me and whose clinic I regularly visit stepped down after being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program (see https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor...).
--
With respect, I do think there is a lot of gaslighting in this thread (from my side as well, perhaps).
I'll refrain from posting such things in the future.
In the words of MLK:
> Hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that.
Please don't get me wrong — I wasn't trying to excuse my wording; I was just trying to explain that I don't mean to create a flamewar or bitter argument. My comments are a genuine expression of my thinking, and I'm not trying to make HN a place for ideological battle. I suppose these discussions just naturally veer into that sort of back-and-forth.
I hope that makes sense.
That's unfortunately how human communication works, especially online, and it takes a conscious (and considerable) effort to learn to do otherwise. It's not easy! We're all working on it, including me. Unfortunately, when the topic is divisive and activating, the rapid-fire, low-information nature of internet comments causes threads like this to compound extremely quickly into an all-out war.
We’ve been through this before with other business people or defrocked public officials: Jack Ma is currently having a peaceful relaxing vacation at one of the party’s many secure resorts (Chinese have memes too). Whether he comes out of this like Fan Binbin or not isn’t anything we will know until it happens.
Second, you're essentially saying that if the other person lives in China it doesn't matter what they say. Think about that for a second, and also about whether or not it really matters where they live if you've put some critical thought into their arguments. Granted some of what he says is subjective, but for something like this that's all you can really get. But if you've already decided the enemy must be wrong then there's no point discussing anything.
Third, the OP you were replying to said he lived in China, but according to his Twitter he's not living in China. So does that meet your standards of considering his opinions?
Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of core assumptions you have about China is wrong?
And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. They censor you if your views are stirring up social unrest or calling for overthrow. But they don't force you to say things they want.
At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if you're a high-level business executive with many ties to the government, then things become more complex. But that's not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?
We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor would he have to go into hiding for anything far less.
I don't say this to accuse you (@dang trying not to flamewar) — do you not see that this argument is a little disingenuous? If you don't, I'd love to hear your thinking on why.
It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact against him.
My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.
In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences and government interference, with few exceptions.
I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's one of the only things the US Constitution got right.
No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a foreigner you don’t want to be a grass mud horse while in China, river crab is the only way to go.
> If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a government department...
Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.
Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior against African workers. I did the same. We did this more than a year ago and we're both still fine.
> Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.
You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.
> You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.
No, of course you can, and that is what Amazon is doing.
You can do that actually.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting...
https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-fa...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_cu...
And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers.
> In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism.
Because it is afraid of it?
> The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rather than people.
And follow the example of thousands of Chinese rural petitioners "constructively" sent to gulags.
> Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not allowed.
But how else would people stage a revolution against Beijing?
In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every year, and all of them return home. Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say?
As for "a revolution against Beijing": prof. Mahbubani says that there are actually hundreds of protests in China every year. But those people aren't protesting against the central government: they're trying to get the central government's attention, to help them with their grievances. The central government is very popular. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government.
What makes you believe you are more right than prof. Mahbubani and Harvard?
Because getting a Visa that lets you stay abroad is actually really hard
Are you saying East Germany was awesome and things should have stayed as they were?
Heck today's China is not the 70s China.
I'm more afraid of going to the US, where any Chinese person can be labeled a 'CCP spy' for no reason.
To make it more concrete, there are people (granted, overwhelmingly ethnically Had Chinese fluent in the language) who voluntarily choose to reside in China over the US or EU, and I don't think they are irrational about it.
It's easy to say "X is bad" when you don't have to care about practical consequences, like whether there are better alternatives, why we're in a suboptimal situation in the first place, and how to get to a better place.
Yes, very much so.
Your presumption is that if CPCs rule, whose rule is a chaos itself, disappears, there will be more chaos?
We are talking about immediate ruinous effects for the majority of Chinese every day communists stay in power.
The moment it stops, lawless land repossessions instantaneously stop, house confiscations stop, fake cases, and expropriations against entrepreneurs stop.
> It's easy to say "X is bad" when you don't have to care about practical consequences
Practical consequences of letting communists to stay in power are millions left destitute every year after their land, property, and businesses are stolen.
The GULAG was a specific USSR agency and their camps. You can't just call any prison system you personally don't like GULAG.
The reality is exact the opposite, and elites routinely keeping shooting the country, and themselves in the foot. Why should they care?
Any ranked party member half way the ladder already has enough privileges to swim in lard for the rest of his life.
I was pretty much there when Shenzhen govt bulldozed close to 10000 factories in between 2009, and 2012 for universiade vanities. That was one third of regions industry! One third
That was single most economically suicidal move I've seen any government do, and that was right after the global financial crisis.
That made a double digit dip in country's exports, and industrial output, so big it was.
CCP is mainland China. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government.
That doesn't mean I "love the CCP". But is there any other party out there who actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization?
China is awesome. The CCP sucks.
If you actually want to discuss this, I'd be happy to. But I need to know whether you are genuine, or whether you merely mean to diss me.
The only mental gymnastics I see are in the post I am replying to.
PS: I agree with your points and am saddened the anti-China rhetoric has been flooding HN over the past years. I read a comment here long ago that said "HN is full of neocons" or something like that, but I can't help but believe there's also state backed propaganda (shills) fomenting sinophobia.
I agree with everything FooBarWidget said, and it's super annoying every time HN has an anti-China boner based on ridiculous things (don't even let me start about Reddit.)
And then, I found myself.. don't want to risk saying anything here with my main account (hence this throwaway account), even if it's defending China.
Will anything happen to me? Very unlikely, even if I "curse Xi". But still, I don't want any topics about Chinese politics to be related with my main ID, "just in case". Unlike FooBarWidget who (by glancing at his Twitter) has settled in EU, I don't have this luxury still plan to go back to China.
I found this whole "mental gymnastics" I have myself ironic and, to be honest, pathetic. So I just stopped. :/
The CCP is truly all powerful!
If my dripping sarcasm wasn’t clear, you’re way off base here.
Edit 1: to the downvoters, please feel free to explain why it’s appropriate to accuse a 12-year HN member of being a paid shill for the CCP when all evidence points to the contrary.
A post about Putin and the CCP exploiting US domestic political turmoil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075
A book recommendation by a longtime China-skeptical writer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz)
My personal preference is for a HN community where dissenting views don’t lead to assigning ulterior motives (in this case being paid to shill for the CCP) to our debating “opponents”.
What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world.
>I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us
Is this Great Replacement propaganda?
>When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?
You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life, not unlike the 200-odd countries that aren't superpowers.
If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.
In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi.
How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult people. The government monitors social media as well for grievances. At the same time they censor social media to prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and works to solve them.
Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value, mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!
As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism world-wide.
China is not facist. Facism means that society is deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one class being seen as inherently superior to other "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment, such as easier access to university.
Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a diss.
As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute" https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than trying to demonize a single party?
> When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?
What made America and the west great? It's because of the great many talented individuals, focus on science and technology, investment in education, research and development. Keep doing that. We've been dropping that ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit together.
China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is easily the most peaceful one in human history.
China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the west come together, the whole world wins.
I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers the next day.
You don't seem to know anything about modern China if you don't even know that.
> After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!
> mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty
If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.
And I am not talking about Mao era here, but very much modern day.
> China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that.
> It's not in their interest to change others' governance model.
Then, why it is doing it?
Beijing sent armed Maoists to Naxalite insurgency, Indonesian Maoist insurgency, Malaysian Maoist insurgency, Singapore coup attempt, North Korea, Nepal, Burma, Laos, Campuchia, Sri Lanka, and ~10 African countries?
A solid record by any measure.
Okay, do tell. I'm being genuine here.
If those boxes are anonymous, why do they know who sent it?
What were the grievances? Why would they get in trouble?
What did the district committee enforces actually do?
How long ago was this?
> If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.
> Then, why it is doing it?
That's a long list, let me go into a few.
North Korea is not an example of China exporting its governance model. If North Korea actually follows China's governance model it would be far more open than it is today. What happened is that during the Vietnam war, China allied with North Korea to prevent the Americans from setting up a base at the Chinese border. That's not "exporting governance model".
Naxalite: where's the evidence that this insurgency is supported by China. Just because they're Maoist doesn't mean China did this.
What do African countries have to do with this? Are you talking about this "debt trap" thing? China doesn't want African countries to default. China has even provided debt relief this year, without asking for anything in return.
China hasn't fired a bullet across its borders for over 30 years. That's more than I can say about the current hegemon.
It's sufficient to reply to what someone has actually posted in this context.
https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&s...
> Also, why live in the Netherlands if China is so great? Wouldn't it make sense to move back there, if everything is on the up & up?
Because China wasn't great. I came here in 1993 with my parents, back then China was dirt-poor. My wife came here much more recently, in 2012, and she's of the opinion that the Netherlands is very boring and has no good food compared to China. She'd fly back multiple times a year if she could.
For a more realistic perspective on Chinese society and its changes in the past 20 years, you should read this: The American Dream Is Alive in China https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-al...
> is kind of ridiculous.
This is a whole different topic. There's a lot to deconstruct and to respond to in just those few sentences you typed, and those few links you sent. I would be glad to engage with you on this subject, but I have to know something first: do you truly wish for a conversation, or do you just want to stick with your existing opinion?
China has problems, but it isn't the boogeyman the media makes it out to be. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.
I first visited China in 1999, did a 6 month Chinese course at PKU in 2002, and lived/worked in Beijing from 2007-2016. Frankly, the political situation simply got worse from 2008 on, whereas before it really looked like China was opening up and would continue to do so.
You're not their target audience, period.
Also you're molded by Western culture, of course you interpret things differently with your own bias (in a neutral sense).
On the flip side, a lot of Chinese find Western media chaotic, unruly and full of lies, which portray Western society in a poor light. And of course, the truth is more nuanced like you said.
While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave about how good things are in China, I've also heard the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away.
The issue is very complex, and I don't disagree that China is full of promise. I really would like China to succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics, etc.).
However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position.
I'd be interested to hear more from you — I think civil discourse is very important. But I also don't have much tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP actors have gotten very good at that.
I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain.
> However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position.
This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!!
But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China.
And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.
Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the startups in Shanghai, the generally better-educated (than the US) populous. I want to make it clear that I don't hold a cartoonish "China bad" view, and I definitely don't see Chinese people as bad people — I have a lot of them as friends — nor even every member of the CCP as a bad person.
But I think these "attacks" of China aren't that unwarranted. There is something really foul afoot in China, moreso than the US. Perhaps, if the US didn't have such a strong constitution and democratic backing, it would be doing worse things than China. But it isn't, and that's because of the setup of the US government.
The things that really bother me about China are:
1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have forgotten about this)
2. The Uighur Genocide
3. Well-documented organ harvesting of political dissident groups like Falun Gong
4. The draconian social-credit system
5. The Great Firewall
6. Parts of the "Belt and Road" initiative, particularly landgrabs from poor African farmers
There is very good evidence for each of these points, and the West doesn't have problems like this.
I do see that the US has a lot wrong with it. I also see that Germany and Europe has a lot wrong with it. I also know that media perceptions are often wrong — I'm half German and hold German citizenship, so I know how strange it is to fly between countries and see how distorted media perceptions are on either end.
But China in its current incarnation is, to me, dangerous and scary, and also very promising. I hope we can patch up the past, but we can't do that by being blind to it.
Tibet is strategically important to the Chinese.
It's a major water source and the origin of the Mekong, Yangtze, and Yellow rivers. Allowing Tibet to remain independent would mean that India could occupy Tibet, use it as a base for invasion, and cut off China's water supply. There were skirmishes along the Tibet-Indian border earlier this year; it's not a theoretical threat. Any great power would use force under these circumstances.
It has though. For the majority of its existence America had continuously screwed over the Native Americans. In fact, one of the primary reasons for the American revolution was to allow colonists to settle on Native American land. It's only after the natives lost their will to fight when America decided to play nice with them. This is pretty much what happened to Tibet and no doubt is going to happen to Xinjiang.
But on the topic of truth, some accusations against China are false. Are you willing to discuss them?
I am kinda interested in the reading the discussion further though. But of course if you feel more comfortable taking it private I'd understand.
If you're interested, we could discuss privately too. Consider this an invitation to contact me.
The problem with "attacks" against China is not so much that they are unwarranted, but that, by the time they reach the Western public, they've gone through multiple layers of filtering, stripping them of relevant context. That can cause problems to appear either more widespread or more localized than they actually are.
Case in point:
> invasion of Tibet
Missing context: the invasion of the whole rest of China, partially by means of brutal military campaigns (e.g. Changchun, Taiyuan), partially by local KMT-affiliated warlords realizing that the CCP had the upper hand and switching allegiance. Tibet was an example of the latter, with the lamas remaining in power until the Panchen Lama allied with the central government in a power struggle against the Dalai Lama, causing him to flee into exile.
> Uighur Genocide
Missing context: all non-Uighur people in China who are nonetheless subjected to "reeducation through labor", political indoctrination, birth control (more than 60% (!) of all Chinese women were sterilized to enforce the One Child Policy) and so on.
> organ harvesting of political dissident groups like Falun Gong
Missing context: organ harvesting from non-Falun Gong, non-dissident executed prisoners.
> social-credit system
Missing context: the implementation pretty much failed. The nationwide rollout was originally scheduled for 2020, but the current state is far from the original vision. Both in terms of social scores (only pilot projects in a few cities) and in terms of credit scoring (Private companies like Ant Financial preferring to use their data for their own internal credit scores instead of sharing with the central Baihang Credit). Ironically, Jack Ma claimed in his speech that his company's credit scoring was so good that they shouldn't be required to back their loans with as much capital, but the regulators didn't buy it.
> Great Firewall
Missing context: the large amount of cross-border communication that happens despite of it, both due to not-uncommom use of technical circumvention tools and due to some sites (e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/china ) not being blocked when you'd expect them to be.
> the "Belt and Road" initiative
Missing context: the large amount of "Belt and Road" projects which are not part of any coordinated initiative, but rather an uncoordinated outpouring of Chinese capital in search of higher profits.
Of course the above is not a defense of China, but definitely a criticism of mainstream Western media discourse on China.
And concerning
> the West doesn't have problems like this.
The West did have problems like this, but a) waited them out (territories annexed a hundred years ago, minorities mostly assimilated, natural drop in birth rates) or b) adopted a different solution (organ harvesting from traffic deaths instead of prisoners, established credit scoring agencies, a political system that doesn't totally collapse if information flows freely, impact assessments for infrastructure projects). Most likely, China will solve their problems in a similar way.
So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China
> I am from China and I have family in China.
So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to contend with official internet censorship.
Urgh, let me tell you some facts.
On February 1 2020, I travelled from China (not Wuhan) back to the Netherlands, having aborted my holiday early. Wuhan was in lockdown for a week at that point, and my flight to the Netherlands was the very last one I could get. At that point, the WHO also declared global emergency.
I arrived in Germany and the Netherlands. What happened in the airports? No temperature checks or other checks. Nobody who took note of my name for contact tracing. Nothing.
Back in the Netherlands, I called the CDC: can I get tested? Reply: no, not even if I pay for it myself. I ask: do I need to quarantine myself? Reply: nope.
I didn't trust that. Chinese media has been raging for weeks about how infectious and dangerous it was, and that it could be spread asymptomatically. So I voluntarily quarantined myself and my family for 2 weeks. Turned out I wasn't infected.
Up until March or April or so, I saw on tv and newspapers and how multiple western governments called covid just a flu, that we're "well prepared", even criticizing the lockdown in Wuhan as a human rights violation.
You want to talk negligence? Okay, China could have done a better job, but let's say they were earlier by 2 weeks and reported to WHO mid-Dec rather than late-Dec. Would that have changed anything when for months the west totally dismissed the virus as being dangerous, and gleed at China's misfortune?
> and how they treated the doctors that sounded the alarm
Li Wenliang was not jailed. He was reprimanded by the police, and could go back to work the next day. He wasn't the first one: the first doctor who said something was Jiang Jixian, whose work led to the WHO escalation on Dec 31, 1 day after Li Wenliang said something. The Chinese court later ruled that the police's treatment of Li Wenliang was unjustified. The police then apologized.
See also: "Some whistleblowers are more equal than others" https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equ...
> the HK issue and with the Uighur concentration camps
These are whole different, and rather complicated topics. I could go into them, but I need to know from you: do you actually want to discuss, or is this meant as a diss to me?
> So you're not behind the great firewall huh? Reminds me of Chinese agents bullying Chinese students in Canada to not badmouth the government
So what? I don't "bully" others for disagreeing with me about China, I talk to them. If you ask me whether those students should bully, then I'd say no: they should discuss. That's something they need to learn.
But the same applies to a great many people in the west, who despite being raised in a free society, prefer to cancel rather than talk.
Still, that doesn't mean that those students' support for China is not genuine or legit.
If Bezos or Gates were to give an address like this, they'd have a great camera setup in their fancy home office with good lighting.
For reference, take a look at Gates appearing on the Daily Show: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iyFT8qXcOrM.
Ma looks the opposite here.
Everyone is not how they normally appear because of the pandemic, and Ma addresses the reason why he's just video taping himself in a room because of this. Stop armchair speculating.
That said, I actually agree with you that the "hurr durr CCP torture cell" comments are overblown. It's entirely plausible that he's keeping a low profile for a while, if likely in response to some rather heavy-handed advice.
So yes we are in agreement that the OP's comment is adds no substance to the conversation and is pure "hurr durr CCP torture cell" that just furthers the stereotypes of China.
This is a picture from today.
https://x0.ifengimg.com/ucms/2021_04/C5A7B512BF72106A6497177...
Same event from 2019.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/09/10/world/10alibaba/m...
He upgraded from sweatpants to khakis. I think people are over reading the situation. All the usual factors that gets someone disappeared is not present with Ma's current faux pas.
Just to clarify, I'm not really in a position to analyze the meaning behind his current attire and choice of background relative to his past, so I'll take your word on your analysis of that.
The Bezos and Gates example is just that, and example of famous people that we familiar with and that's it.
Chill man. Not everything is about race.
Most people would consider Elon to be eccentric, Paul Graham to not look like traditional VC, and these superficial aspects are frankly irrelevant. So why is it ok to use that to insinuate stereotypes and hand-wavy assertions of malfeasance.
Perhaps for you there is no consequence, but much like calling the coronavirus the "China virus", you're doing cultural damage by spreading negative stereotypes via fabricated or insinuated purely speculative assertions. The stereotype here is that China is associated with as some dystopian backwards society that has done no favors for its citizenry, which may or may not be true, but is definitely not defended by any objective evidence presented by the OP.
To flip the scenario, imagine if some random people from China commented about how the US elections seems like there was rampant fraud, without much supporting evidence. By lending credence to something without any concrete evidence you give it some air of legitimacy. When you do so by purely speculating on non-important things you've entered the realm of purely pushing an agenda with no substance.
I think people are mostly just trying to figure out what is going on with one of the richest/most powerful people in the world. There's not a lot of evidence to go on, so any scrap is potentially relevant. In your view, what are the best theories for his behavior?
And this isn't just an academic or social exercise; Alibaba jumped billions due to this appearance.
I mean if I video conferenced with you right now you'd probably speculate I've been coopted by Communist powers because simply because my background isn't up to your standards (it'd be of a water heater and radon pipes since I'm in the basement).
If I saw Zuck, Satya or Sundar do a video conference looking like they're chained to the radiator in somebody's basement, I'd also be kinda concerned. (At least for the latter two. Zuck, maybe not so much.)
The OP's comments about the appearance of the video is completely irrelevant and merely serving to throw speculative shade. For what it's worth, something probably did happen but his choice of webcam + background probably has nothing to do with it, but rampant speculation and false information is how we lead to the capital riots.
While the idea of gulags and "re-education camps" pervade Western perceptions of Chinese life, the reality is that conformity and centralized government is probably more dull than you think.
Telling that the Global Times (CPC-affiliated media) refers to him as the "former executive chairman of #Alibaba", and that he's making the video from some "rural teacher-themed social welfare event".
This isn't what normally happens to billionaire corporate executives, unless they've been convicted of violating the law.
It's less strange than time tested.
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
Looks like it could be some form of house arrest.
No need to make it up to be more eerie than it is
The real Jack Ma is getting his kidneys harvested right now, because apparently, that’s what the CCP does to their own citizens (according to western media).
/s
https://web.archive.org/web/20120205064042/http://www.usemba...
https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4b6fe16df.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20090620050738/http://www.americ...
At this time, Chinese political structure was _thoroughly_ infiltrated by CIA assets. There's also orthogonal indicators like amount of immuno-suppressant drugs in Chinese market cannot support a vast shadow organ harvesting system like FLG claims. There's a reason no credible institutions without FLG sponsorship have ever endorsed these findings. Including Mike Pompeo, at the urging for US lawmakers no less, who got drunk on FLG/epochtime coolaid. There's a special tier of ridiculous claims when even Pompeo can't spin it against China. FLG organ harvesting / vivisection has always been atrocity porn for useful idiots. It shouldn't be surprising these narratives are finally gaining traction during a period where media landscape is generating loads of them, when epochetimes is the #1 news paper on the appstore.
I say this as someone with several FLG family members who was prosecuted in China, they are delusional cultists. Everything is peaceful and good intensions until they convince themselves not to seek medical advice and dies from completely preventable illnesses.
Also — I didn't know the Epoch Times was the #1 newspaper in the App Store. I'm definitely not on that side of the political spectrum, if that's your worry. My concerns about China come more from a progressive perspective. That said, I do think the treatment of Falun Gong in China is atrocious, and I have some Falun Gong friends/acquaintances in the Netherlands (perhaps a bias).
Organ harvesting is a real problem in China, whether on a small scale (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55097424) or large scale (read through this article and souces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...).
Black market organ trading is real problem but also stop gap solution in China, a country with abysmally low organ donation rates that's improving since reforms. Reference per capita transplant rate, China is 1/4 of west, however large the market, it isn't enough to provide even parity availability, not to mention large numbers goes towards transplant tourism for western customers who never seem to get appropriate denouncement from FLG despite their massive discourse power. It takes two to tango.
At the end of the day, there are irreconcilable priorities and moral calculus due to differences in culture and development. CN transplant system is moving in the right direction - FLG didn't convince west to stop getting transplants in China, CCP had to legislate against when the time was right. Things improve incrementally, otherwise FLG would need to resurrect long debunked accusations to suit their agenda.
I really, really hope the new administration has someone who cranks up the "brain drain agenda" to 10. The only challenge is doing so without importing too many spies or covert actors — and that's a REAL challenge. Perhaps it would be easier to aggressively brain-drain China's allies (not that there are any I can think of)...
I was quite shocked that an opthamologist at a clinic I regularly visit resigned after being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program, here in San Diego [0].
[0]: https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor...
The CEO of a $600B global publicly traded company disappeared for several months. This does not explicitly mean that he was detained, but it should be a point of concern.
Imagine the outcry if this happened to an American CEO with controversial political opinions (there are a lot of them, so take your pick).
You should take a look at my post history, then. Any time I express concern over China I'm voted into oblivion.
It's the same with Apple, but that I expect.
Recently I think someone has taken to downvoting entirely innocuous posts I make from my post history. Sometimes I'll post replies to day-old threads and find myself downvoted within half an hour.
You're about to be downvoted too, btw.
Tired of posts like that being flagged, and then derided by the mods here as problematic for highlighting plain realities.
We cannot bend to the misinformation from China or any corrupt world government.
This has also been happening on Reddit threads where people post comments critical of China. Top level comments are critical, but then far down the thread, low visibility comments suddenly swing aggressively upward or downward by dozens of votes if they relate to China.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-...
Since when the U.S. providing free citizenships to the countries in need of help?
Since its inception. It may not be immediately apparent, but immigration to the USA was routine in its history and is still very common now.
For example in the late 1970s we accepted refugees from Vietnam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people
In the early 1980s we granted citizenship to illegal aliens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control... and new President Biden wants to do it again.
In the 1990s we allowed many Somalis to immigrate here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_American
There are countless more examples, old and recent.
i) "The west" is much bigger than the US
ii) Right of political asylum has been "a thing" for a long while, specially for people fleeing authoritarian regimes.
B) The US isn't exactly a hot ticket item at the moment. How many armed riots y'all had this year?
>2. Culture war. Tell Disney it's time to stop being cozy and make a "Chernobyl" style film about Tiananmen, Uyghurs, Tibetans, et al.
That's just straight up propaganda coming from a country that has plenty of bad stuff Disney could make movies from too.
I would want the atrocities of the US documented all the same.
Hold corrupt leadership accountable, always.
Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video?
EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196....
If you watch his eye movements, it looks like he's reading from a script.