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Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:09AM (#25843406)
Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat, is going to toe the party line (literally) since the consequences for not doing so these days can be severe.

We’ve been through this before with other business people or defrocked public officials: Jack Ma is currently having a peaceful relaxing vacation at one of the party’s many secure resorts (Chinese have memes too). Whether he comes out of this like Fan Binbin or not isn’t anything we will know until it happens.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by chrischen on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:18AM (#25843474)
First, it's "toe the line."

Second, you're essentially saying that if the other person lives in China it doesn't matter what they say. Think about that for a second, and also about whether or not it really matters where they live if you've put some critical thought into their arguments. Granted some of what he says is subjective, but for something like this that's all you can really get. But if you've already decided the enemy must be wrong then there's no point discussing anything.

Third, the OP you were replying to said he lived in China, but according to his Twitter he's not living in China. So does that meet your standards of considering his opinions?

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by FooBarWidget on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:50AM (#25843691)
> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat

Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of core assumptions you have about China is wrong?

And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. They censor you if your views are stirring up social unrest or calling for overthrow. But they don't force you to say things they want.

At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if you're a high-level business executive with many ties to the government, then things become more complex. But that's not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by sebmellen on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:55AM (#25843734)
Just a note — there is basically zero chance that Jeff Bezos would face any sort of governmental action if he "pissed off a guy in a government department," however influential that person may be. AWS just blocked Parler, and I'm sure our current president — arguably the most powerful man on Earth (until tomorrow) — was not very happy with that.

We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor would he have to go into hiding for anything far less.

I don't say this to accuse you (@dang trying not to flamewar) — do you not see that this argument is a little disingenuous? If you don't, I'd love to hear your thinking on why.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by FooBarWidget on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:18AM (#25843870)
Well, I'd just have to respectfully disagree then. As someone who runs my own company, I know better than to pick a quarrel with my customers, even if I don't agree with those customers on a political or whatever level.

It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact against him.

My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by jolux on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:39AM (#25844800)
>My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.

In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences and government interference, with few exceptions.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by FooBarWidget on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:06PM (#25851261)
Is that really good enough? Why is freedom from government interference all you care about?
Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by jolux on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:23PM (#25852763)
It's not all that I care about, but the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I have recourse to that force if another private entity harms me. Who do I have recourse to if the government harms me?

I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's one of the only things the US Constitution got right.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:56AM (#25843739)
> And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works.

No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a foreigner you don’t want to be a grass mud horse while in China, river crab is the only way to go.

> If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a government department...

Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by FooBarWidget on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:20AM (#25843883)
> No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied.

Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior against African workers. I did the same. We did this more than a year ago and we're both still fine.

> Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.

You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:55AM (#25847896)
Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, or that it could happen. If you have a 60k/month job, you can’t really take the risk that your visa won’t be renewed.

> You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.

No, of course you can, and that is what Amazon is doing.

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by perryizgr8 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:46AM (#25844055)
> You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.

You can do that actually.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting...

https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-fa...

Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by FPGAhacker on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:17AM (#25843468)
It’s “toe the line.”
Re:Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in on... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:25AM (#25843516)
Fixed.