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Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by WhompingWindows on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:14PM (#25817715)
The author states switching from cooking to washing dishes is a huge context switch and a waste of time...I disagree. Everyone who cooks efficiently is constantly switching between tasks, since you're often waiting a few minutes before your next cooking step can occur. Maybe in a professional restaurant where your role is defined, then no, don't switch roles.

But in your own kitchen? While my toast is toasting, you know I'm going to get a head start on the dishes, or chop those garnishes, or check in on a second dish, etc. If I cooked by focusing solely on each task until it's done, I'd probably use 50-100% more time to do the same job maybe 10% better.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mulmen on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:25PM (#25817758)
In covid times I have been teaching myself how to cook, basically from nothing. It takes me forever to do anything. Chopping an onion takes what feels like an eternity.

Recipes that claim “5 minutes of prep” are more like 20 minutes for me. It can be very discouraging.

What you describe is definitely something that comes with experience. Like using vim effectively. I’m improving but it literally took a once in a century global pandemic to overcome the initial learning curve.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dagw on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:40AM (#25819593)
Recipes that claim “5 minutes of prep” are more like 20 minutes for me

Treat recipe prep times the same way you'd treat a managers estimate how long it should take you fix a bug. Truth is most recipe book writers haven't actually done the prep work from zero from their recipes and are basically just guessing.

It's the same with the these TV shows where they cook a meal in 20 minutes. If you walk into a kitchen where an assistant has line up all the ingredients pre measured and prepped in separate bowels, pre-heated two ovens and all the pans they know you'll need, and made sure there are two large pots of boiling water already on the stoves then prehaps you can make the meal in 20 minutes on your 3rd or 4th try. Otherwise there is no chance.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:38AM (#25819977)
All the recipe books I own have accurate prep + cook times for an “ideal chef in ideal circumstances.” I don’t know why they wouldn’t. For any decent recipe book the recipes are made and tested many times in different variations. If you know that you are slower then just pad it out a bit. It shouldn’t be discouraging that professional & motivated amateur chefs are faster than you—just like it should not be discouraging that professional basketball players can score more points than you.

I can understand why cooking can be slow and painful for people new to the activity. However, if you want to get fast at cooking, it is not that hard to get fast. Knife skills, multitasking, and planning will make everything go much faster. If your knife skills are not great (say, takes you longer than about a minute to dice an onion) or you are tired from a long day of work and aren’t in the mood to move fast, prep will take a lot longer.

Just observing people do prep I think it’s fairly plain to see that tons of people are just damn slow at it, either because they don’t enjoy going fast or because their skills aren’t up to par. And there are plenty of cooking shows where the contestants are under strict time limits but must still do all their prep within the time limit. Cutthroat Kitchen usually has a 30 minute limit, including prep, and including acts of sabotage that increase the difficulty.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mbeex on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:10AM (#25820511)
> It shouldn’t be discouraging that professional & motivated amateur chefs are faster than you

I don't see, why cooking should be a competition for speed in the first place.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by jdbernard on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:17AM (#25821480)
I don't think it's a competition mentality as much as a need to be able to plan the time it takes to prep and cook so that the food is ready when the family is hungry.

I like to cook, but I don't have tons of time to cook as a hobby. New recipes are worked into our regular meal times. If it takes me an hour longer than the estimated time to prep and cook, I've made everyone wait an extra hour, throwing off any other plans for the evening. That can be discouraging and lead to wondering "why did they say it only takes 20 minutes? Are they just guessing, or am I just a slow cook?" Hence this thread. :)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mbeex on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:40AM (#25822193)
I dont buy this, reading many of the comments here. I'm not a native speaker and not certain at this moment if the figure of "hamster wheel" exists in English. But "rat race" does, as well as "cog in the wheel". There is a certain underlying trait of self-optimizing anything, also visible in the HN articles title itself (fortunately not so much the content) as well as in many other articles of this kind, coming up here continously. And these optimization considerations are >95% limited to time, they are much closer to self-exploitation than anything else.

Cooking for the moment aside, consider lunch. I'm German (sadly, the country became closer to the US in this respect). But if you ever worked in France or Switzerland for example (not to talk about countries even further into the South), you will spot much a difference here - yet in time spent, but also in the opinion what is important at all. Cooking is the same - it is not all "hungry family" (I certainly agree, at times it is), these are more often than not rationalizations. When I am cooking, the kitchen full of people is the most satisfying situation. It doesn't matter really, how long it lasts. This is not lost time, on the contrary! Also not in the context of work, because it eventually produces energy (I don't mean the calories) also for this.

A final small example: I have an Italian espresso machine here in my offices kitchen. Producing an espresso or cappuccino requires to do all steps manually: grinding beans, evaluating the pressure on the analog gauge, provisioning the milk, making foam from it, etc. - time-consuming! But it is a micro ritual, making my head free enough for handling some of the kinds of small problems, appearing during work. I could also buy something 'modern' using pads, maybe some sort of remote control, even a robot serving the final result to me (are there such things?). I certainly will never do this.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:15PM (#25823942)
I will interject here—I’m one of the people who says that cooks who take 1 hour to cook a 20 minute recipe are slow. However, I don’t think that this is a problem of over-optimizing or self exploitation.

My wife and I both do a lot of cooking and it is a fun, shared activity where we can move fast or slow, and talk about things. We also spent some time learning—learning knife skills, learning new techniques for cooking, trying new cuisines or new recipes.

However, if you are chopping an onion and hold the knife wrong, hold the onion wrong, or make the wrong cuts, it is not only slower but it is also more dangerous. If your knife is dull, you push the knife harder, and that is more dangerous. If chopping an onion is safe, you can move faster. It is a simple skill to learn and everyone who cooks should learn it.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by jdbernard on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @12:55AM (#25830473)
Lol, OK. I'm not worried about "wasted" time or "unproductive" time. I am sensitive to "young kids are hungry because dinner is an hour later than expected," or "we've got plans to visit grandparents and don't want to be out too late because they have school in the morning." Trying to pretend that there is never any time pressure in life is a bit naive, I think.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mbeex on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:21PM (#25852156)
> never any time pressure in life is a bit naive

Missing the related point from the comment is... what? Deliberate?

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mjevans on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:41AM (#25820733)
Cooking / recipe books should have a professional time and an 'amateur time'. The latter exists more as a worst case estimate for how long the first try at a dish by someone generally less skilled might take. That would give someone trying the dish for the first time a good idea how much time it takes, which can be important.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:38AM (#25823488)
If a recipe has 20 minutes of prep, then everyone who is fast can do the prep in 20 minutes. But everyone who is slow will take a different amount of time, because anyone who is slow is slow for different reasons.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by cutemonster on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:59PM (#25826559)
The cooking book could show the 1, 90 and 99 and 99.9 percentile prep time?

(E.g 99.9 being 40 min would mean that 999 out of 1 000 people got it done faster than 40 min)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:39PM (#25827564)
Eh. I did a bunch of statistical modeling for cloud service SLIs/SLOs/SLAs. This approach is good for letting people do black-box modeling. It sounds like complete overkill for recipes.

A recipe is not a black box. Most recipes are short and can be written on a half page of paper. If it calls for two chopped onions and you know that it takes you an “eternity” to chop onions, then add two eternities to the cooking time.

And as long as you are spending two eternities chopping onions, why not spend 90 seconds watching a video on YouTube that explains how to do it correctly? For most people—if you are cooking regularly, and practicing good technique, you will naturally get faster over time. If, like many people, you are cooking for decades, then you will be slow for only a short time.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by cutemonster on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @05:12PM (#25839605)
> It sounds like complete overkill for recipes.

I forgot an /s. 99.9 percentile would require doing each meal in the cooking book ... 1000 or 10 000 times by different people to get an accurate timing :)

> chopping onions, why not spend 90 seconds watching a video on YouTube that explains how to do it correctly?

That sounds like a good idea, could get back 1 000 x those two minutes, in a lifetime, and more yummy food and can impress others with the onion skills. (No /s here. I'll try to remember tomorrow, youtube.)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by gifnamething on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:57AM (#25819688)
>here are two large pots of boiling water already on the stoves

Tangent: In the UK, I boil any water I need in a 240 V kettle. It dramatically reduces the waiting time.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by wpearse on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:22AM (#25819873)
My mate just moved from NZ (230 volts) to Canada (110 volts) and he reckons the electric kettle over there is basically impotent due to having less than half as much potential kicking about in the wires.

Maybe that explains why the Americans are so attached to their boiling pots?

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Mauricebranagh on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:30AM (#25820665)
Its also why in tv shows made in the USA/Canada they always show stove top kettles with the whistle one.

Always make me think of my Grans council house in Birmingham (UK) and her kettle.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by colonwqbang on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:44AM (#25820375)
There's no reason why a 110 V kettle couldn't be as powerful as a 230 V one, if it was designed for that voltage. Just like light bulbs in the US are not generally less bright than those in France.

If you take a 230 V kettle and connect it to 110 V, then yes it will be less powerful. Perhaps about 1/4 of the power.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by agurk on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:08AM (#25820504)
If volts were there only limitation on the design that would be correct, however amps are also important in this case. A 240V UK wall socket can be up to 13 amps whilst a US 110V line is 12 amps.

With power (watts) being volts * amps that gives the power of 3120 Vs 1320 watts for UK Vs USA respectively.

This means a UK kettle can dump heat into the water up to 2.4 times faster so should boil in less than half the time.

Kettles are at the high end of power consumption as generally people want a fast boil. Lights are towards the low end as its rare for someone to want even 1000 watts of incandescent brightness.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by wongarsu on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:17AM (#25820568)
In Europe kettles typically use around 2300W, since homes are typically wired with 16A breakers (and you don't want the kettle to pop the breaker as soon as you add another device). But US homes are wired similarly, typically with 15A breakers. So you get kettles that typically use 1500W, much less than the European equivalent.

Sure, you could use powerful kettles in the US on a 20W outlet, or on a 230V circuit, but nobody is going to do that. A typical kettle that you can just buy and plug in wherever is less powerful in the US just because you use halve the voltage but don't wire for double the current.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by colonwqbang on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:24AM (#25820621)
Ok, that makes sense! I guess I just assumed that US wiring would typically be rated for higher currents to compensate for the less efficient transmission.

It didn't occur to me that Americans would settle for having less power than the rest of the world, it seems uncharacteristic somehow :)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by marcosdumay on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:16AM (#25821473)
We choose wiring gauge mostly by the "how large can it be while still moving well inside a wall?" factor. So, it's not surprising different places use the same one.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by colonwqbang on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:00PM (#25825905)
On the face of it, it would be equally unsurprising if wiring was dimensioned to fit the needed power output. But you are right of course.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bregma on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:42AM (#25821212)
I'm sure 1% of Americans have 30 amp circuits in their kitchen and the help can boil water at twice the rate. Most Americans support this because they consider themselves just temporarily embarrassed by low-powered kettles.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mulmen on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:56PM (#25828232)
Americans have 240v to the house. My dryer and oven are 240v. Just the general utility outlets are half that.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by TeMPOraL on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:26AM (#25819901)
Same here (in Poland). Besides being faster, this is likely more energy-efficient, as the kettle isn't bleeding heat as much as a pot on the stove.

Speaking of which, I don't understand why we've settled on a gas stove design that's so terribly inefficient, with most[0] of the heat leaking around the pan. Why no design with a combustion chamber of some sorts?

--

[0] - Well, at least a lot. I didn't do the math here yet, but it's hard to imagine otherwise with unrestricted airflow around the pan.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by corty on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:35AM (#25819961)
> Why no design with a combustion chamber of some sorts?

Thermal capacity. Gas stoves are great because they have none, so any temperature changes are immediate. Anything between the pot and the flame will destroy that advantage.

Also, the combustion chamber will have a vent for the exhaust. So I would suspect that it won't be any more efficient, except for very small pot sizes.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:12AM (#25820520)
Induction cooking plates are the same (with magnetic pots, pans and so on, otherwise won't work(at all)), regarding the immediacy.

When I got my first, I've been curious and experimented with water. Depending on the model they have sensor buttons where you can raise/lower the temperature in 10 to 20°C steps.

Mine have 10°C steps, where with water in a pot at 90°C the first few small bubbles start to rise, like in soda/mineral water. When at 100°C the big boiling bubbles start after about 2 to 3 seconds.

Mine are rated at 2500 Watts each, have segmented induction coils where the outer segments switch off with smaller pots, are plan like a mirror and thus very easy and fast to clean.

I'm such a fan! :-)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by TeMPOraL on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:21AM (#25820247)
> Also, the combustion chamber will have a vent for the exhaust. So I would suspect that it won't be any more efficient, except for very small pot sizes.

The airflow needs to be there, but I imagine it could be slowed down, so that the hot air spends more time transferring energy to the pot. That would retain the fast reaction time, and let one burn less gas for the same amount of cooking output.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by vegardx on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:25AM (#25820273)
Specialized hiking gear typically come with integrated heat exchangers and insulation to be more efficient when used on gas-fired stoves. This makes them really good at boiling water, and terrible at anything else since it's impossible to control the heat in any meaningful way.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by BossingAround on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:34AM (#25819952)
> this is likely more energy-efficient

Be that as it may, it's most likely more expensive. This is purely my personal guesstimate, but gas tends to be much cheaper in Poland than electricity. More efficient, maybe, but I'd be very surprised if it was cheaper given the prices.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by TeMPOraL on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:08AM (#25820179)
Yes, I assume it's more expensive. Gas is cheaper than electricity in Poland, but then again, electricity also isn't that expensive for preboiling in a kettle to make a big difference.

On a related note, I was surprised when I did calculations on how much it actually costs us to bake our own bread. We started doing that a lot during this pandemic. It turns out, the cost of ingredients + electricity adds to slightly less than what it would cost to buy the same products from a bakery. This doesn't price in time spent on preparing and baking, but it's not like we could actually use that time to make money, we're having fun, and going to a store also takes time (and/or fuel). Electricity is cheap.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by leoedin on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:33AM (#25819947)
Or use an induction stove, which is even quicker than a kettle
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by faeyanpiraat on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:16AM (#25820214)
It's cheaper to buy a kettle, than a whole induction stove, and compatible pots.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by leoedin on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:26AM (#25820643)
Certainly that's true (although when I got an induction stove i only had to replace one pan - they've been widespread for long enough now that all the cookware I bought in the last decade is compatible, as are all my ancient cast iron pans).

It's worth understanding though - at least in the UK the received wisdom is that "kettle is fastest" - but that's not always true any more.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by andrepd on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:16AM (#25821477)
Is it, in the long run? Induction is much more efficient than gas.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by faeyanpiraat on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:22AM (#25823267)
I'm talking about an electric kettle, just like the parent comment.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by JoeAltmaier on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:12AM (#25820527)
Preparing the ingredients is good advice at home too. Otherwise you forget things or use the wrong amounts. Have everything in small bowls ready to go in, then start cooking proper.

And yes an onion can be chopped in seconds. There are youtube videos on it. Worth learning.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by oivey on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:06AM (#25819063)
This used to be very discouraging for me, but I recently learned that usually the time given for recipes doesn’t include chopping, measuring, etc. Because how much time that takes people is so variable, recipe authors leave it out. If it included, there is intense pressure to keep it under 30 minutes because people will avoid recipes with longer times (also, unfortunately, SEO does, too).

You’re probably not as slow as you think.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:54AM (#25820094)
I am going to disagree here. I think prep times are generally accurate for people with decent skills who are motivated to move quickly (rather than hang out in the kitchen and chat, which is totally fine it just affects your schedule).

How long does it take you to chop an onion? Well, let me put it this way—an instructional video of someone demonstrating how to chop an onion, moving slowly and pausing to explain the technique, will run about 90 seconds, possibly less. If it takes you more than about a minute to cut an onion, you are slow.

Most people have dull knives, hold the knife incorrectly so it is unstable, make the wrong cuts in the onion so it falls apart, hold the onion incorrectly and move slowly because they are worried about cutting their fingers. If you sharpen your knife, hold it correctly, make the correct cuts, and hold the onion correctly, you’ll find that it’s very fast to cut an onion.

Fact is—the difference between someone who is skilled and someone who is unskilled is big enough that they teach entire classes on knife technique. This is not about some esoteric subject like teaching you how to butcher small game in your kitchen—in a knife skills class, they’ll teach you basic stuff like how to cut onions. And I’ll say that being good at cutting onions does require a decent amount of skill—onions are round and slippery, after all.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Godel_unicode on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:35AM (#25819959)
Fwiw, this is totally untrue. Most people are simply not very efficient, even people who are "good at cooking". Knowing how to cook and then watching someone who is self-taught (or worse, YouTube influencer taught) is pretty eye-opening.

Don't feel bad, most people are not actually good at cooking. But if you care, being good is pretty simple. It just takes actual training, which most people are surprisingly resistant to.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mavidser on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:23AM (#25821048)
Just to clarify this further - most good recipe writers would use actual prep times, but they start from the state of listed ingredients. If the ingredients mention '3 whole onions' and the steps list chopping them, the recipe would include chopping time. However if the recipe lists 250g chopped onions, then the recipe time won't factor into that part.

Of course, this is usually true for publications which have an editorial processes (eg - Cook's Illustrated), and not more casual blogs/YT videos

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by oivey on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:57AM (#25822360)
Yes, you’re right. At least partially recipes call for items in state because prep time will vary significantly by skill level. More cynically, with blogger recipes there is also a potential for SEO games.

It isn’t really a shady practice, but for whatever reason over several years I had never known it.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by samdjstephens on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:42AM (#25820016)
Agree 100%. There's a race to the bottom when it comes to preparation times. One recipe says it takes 20 mins vs one that says 45 mins - which recipe are you going to choose?
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by stickfigure on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:57AM (#25819013)
Remember the initial feeling of navigation by HJKL? And how hindbrain those keystrokes are now? It gets that way with onion-chopping (and everything else in the kitchen).

Take mise en place seriously. If the recipe calls for chopped onions, chop them before you turn on the burner. Later you can work on parallelizing the process (eg, chopping the onions while the bacon is rendering) but to start with, just work on getting all the pieces on the table before you start the chess clock. Delegate to sous-spouses or sous-children.

Rarely do you need to be a perfectionist. If you are sautéing or stewing or braising or souping, the onions cook down. Ceviche is a different matter. Baking may be more specific, but that kind of witchcraft is forbidden around here.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by KineticLensman on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:47AM (#25820045)
I can cook reasonably well (I like food and have ~40 years of practice).

> If the recipe calls for chopped onions, chop them before you turn on the burner. Later you can work on parallelizing the process

For most meals I start the slowing-cooking item first and then start on the others once it is in the over / pot or similar. E.g. a roast joint. I'll get it in the oven and then prep the roasting veggies (e.g. potatoes and parsnips), get them in the oven and then start peeling the green veg (which only need cooking for a few minutes). Over the years I've learned how long things need and how long I take to prep them, so my timings usually work out.

Chinese cooking (or at least my take on it) is my main exception: given the short cooking times of some things, and the large number of ingredients / dishes, I tend to prep everything first, and then start cooling simultaneously.

The other obvious exception is using my smoker, where a meal might stay in it for more than 5 hours. I say 'meal' rather than 'meat' because I also use the smoker to cook chilli and tagine.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by faeyanpiraat on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:19AM (#25820235)
I'm probably overcooking everything.

Overcooking meats to be on the safe side, and overcooking the veggies, because they are in with the meat for the same amount of time, but they should be in for less, etc..

I guess I'm missing out on taste and nutrients aswell due to this?

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by chupasaurus on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:51AM (#25820797)
You are, more or less depends on components and how you process them. The only way to figure it out is trial-and-error, sounds generic but it's true.

While I was unemployed for 9 months I got a brilliant idea to learn cooking outside of sandwiches and very basic meals. One of the main dishes I'd wanted to learn was boiled rice which everyone around me always fail to do properly except SEA expats. I was surprised that for each shape and size of rice I could buy there are 2 or 3 different sources and/or cultivars which behave differently but people tend to cook them the same way.

offtopic: where you got Space Rangers from?

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by CaptainSandwich on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:17AM (#25823217)
I found that a good quality instant-read thermometer(e.g. Thermapen) was a huge help for building confidence when cooking meat. If you don’t have one, I’d strongly recommend getting one.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by nicoburns on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:25AM (#25820278)
For most meals I cook, onions are one of the slowest cooking items. I'm vegetarian so there's no meat, and I avoid items like potatoes and parsnips in most meals specifically because they're slow.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Thiez on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:34AM (#25821600)
> Remember the initial feeling of navigation by HJKL? And how hindbrain those keystrokes are now?

Totally unrelated, but I have a dvorak keyboard layout, and navigation using HJKL is one of the things I hate most about vi. Sure, I could rebind it locally, but that doesn't help me when I use a remote machine. Perhaps this is what being left handed feels like.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by emilecantin on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:36AM (#25822153)
I'm a heavy VIM user, and I pretty much only use J and K, almost never H and L. Pretty much everything else is more efficient anyway (w and b to jump to word boundaries, f / t to go to a specific character on a line, etc.) so by the time I'm resorting to that kind of navigation, I often use the arrows (or even the mouse!).
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by apsurd on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:50AM (#25818620)
The book SALT FAT ACID HEAT changed my life. I’ve gifted that book to 3 people in my life so far

Actually, you can be four! Send me your address and i’ll send it to you, email the gmail domain with the handle plusjade

it’s really that good ^_^

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mulmen on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:40AM (#25818903)
Thanks but I’m gainfully employed. I’ll pick it up. Drop one off in your local Little Library instead :)
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by blakblakarak on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:20AM (#25819471)
There is a Netflix series of the same name by the author that's worth a look - she's an engaging host.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dagw on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:46AM (#25819627)
The Netflix series is mostly food porn and a fun travelog. It actually teaches you maybe 10% of what you'd learn from the book.

This is actually a problem with most current "food TV". None of them seem to actually want to teach people how to cook. They'll spend 90 seconds showing the host throw together a dish while glossing over most of the details and techniques, when they should be spending the full 30 minutes.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by LadyCailin on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:08AM (#25821420)
Just want to give a shout out to Alex French Guy Cooking, who does exactly what you're wanting. Particularly videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94d7ZXySplo
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dagw on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:34AM (#25822142)
Yup, all the good cooking shows are on YouTube now.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by tommica on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:31AM (#25818848)
What makes it so good? I want to learn to cook, and your enthuasism is quite inspiring
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by apsurd on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:19AM (#25819140)
+1 to all the sibling replies. I’ll add the inspiration element from my experience:

Samin Nosrat is a fantastic teacher. She shares cooking through the lens of “why”. It’s the opposite of say, rote learning which, as a beginner, i’d always assumed “follow this recipe” was and so suffered indifference toward the world of cooking. I’ve never been good at following directions.

She’s the teacher that guides you to what you could not see because of false assumptions.

Cooking is now an endless exploration. There are foundational answers to “why” and though I’d call it an anti-recipe book, the second half is all recipes heh, but they are like seed ideas. You can practice one seed and explore yourself how to build upon it.

I made an herb salsa: citrus juice, herbs (i use cilantro), onion, salt, and oil. This is the ACID. You can then incorporate the other 3 however you wish. It makes me feel like a chef! I put it in eggs. and chicken. i’m still exploring. It takes time and care, but not “to get the right answer”, rather to develop your point of view. I look forward to it now. each meal is an opportunity to practice and explore. its my own creativity and art. i love it.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by oivey on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:54AM (#25818997)
I haven’t read through it, but the essence I believe is an emphasis on fitting components and techniques together rather than slavishly following recipes.

Similarly good (and maybe a good companion) is J. Kenji Lopez-Alt’s YouTube channel. He basically wears a GoPro and cooks full meals with a very minimum number of cuts. You can see him make mistakes and adapt recipes to what he has on hand in real time. Watching a pro do that really made a lot of things click for me. His book (The Food Lab) and his articles on Serious Eats are also good, but his videos have really been extraordinary.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by atorodius on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:40AM (#25819594)
Fully agreed. I wanted to add that sometimes he also goes into a scientific detour about why something is done the way it is, and I learned a lot theoigh that.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Hasu on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:48AM (#25818954)
I've read part of it, and really enjoyed it, and I would say: It breaks cooking down into four simple, basic principles (the salt, acid, fat, and heat of the title), then deep dives into each one and explains exactly how those things contribute to the taste of different dishes. This allows you to learn to cook without just following a recipe and knowing that if you apply those principles correctly to whatever food you have in your kitchen, you can make something reasonably tasty.

Of course, learning to cook also involves many other techniques and combining flavors in more complex ways, but if you're starting out and can't boil an egg, it's a great introduction to the basics of what makes food taste good.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by taurath on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:56AM (#25819004)
It’s a pretty deep read I’d say. It’s improved a lot of my instincts in the kitchen (what’s a dish or pot missing) . Recipes are also nice but can be a cost trap until you generate a sense of what sorts of things you want to have stocked. For that I’d say stick to one grouping of recipes (like say, Italian) to get a basic idea of what “most” recipes use in that grouping. That will save you money as you won’t have to be going out for different new spices, canned goods and oils every time you cook.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by m_mueller on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:19AM (#25819141)
Sounds a lot like how I've learned cooking during my student time. It's fun experimenting with techniques until you understand how to extract a decent flavor out of each ingredient. I think this is why master chefs never stop learning, it's a really deep rabbit hole until you've perfected just one dish, repeatably.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by wombatmobile on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:17AM (#25819835)
> I want to learn to cook

Invest in good cookware.

Three high quality pots and two high quality pans will improve your cooking experience, learning, and results exponentially.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by htatche on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:17AM (#25820569)
And at least one proper knife.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by pindab0ter on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:29AM (#25818840)
What makes the book so good? Why do you recommend it?
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by MrTrvp on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:44AM (#25819265)
man, I'd love a copy if OP doesn't need one
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by apsurd on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:51AM (#25819317)
email me your address!
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by MrTrvp on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:53AM (#25819323)
oh wow! thanks so much! emailing you now :)
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dheera on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:06AM (#25818368)
I find a big part of the problem is most kitchens are designed poorly without any attention to workflows. For example pot->sink->stove or dining table->sink->drying rack or vegetables from fridge->sink->cutting board->pot and often require back-and-forth motion to accomplish these things. No attention to where the user would place a trash can AND recycling can AND compost can. No attention to where the user would place a knife block that is right in front of a suitable space for cutting, with enough space for cutting. Sinks or fridges placed next to stoves with no attention to where one would store oil, vinegar, other cooking condiments, spatulas, and things. Sinks designed without space for a drying rack nearby. Sinks and faucets that are too shallow that you can't wash a pot. Faucets that are always either too hot or too cold. Sharp-cornered hippie sinks that are hard to scrub down the corner. Counters designed so small and completely oblivious to the fact that everyone has at least a microwave and 3 other appliances and still need space to chop and work flour without making a mess.

If the space is designed well with close attention to workflows and storage and even a gram of attention paid to the UI/UX of the kitchen, work would a LOT faster.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by wrsh07 on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:04AM (#25818687)
I would definitely recommend watching a few videos.

1) knife basics & skills. Not to nerd out too much here, but a good chefs knife is such an important tool (reply if you want any specific tips or have questions)

2) learn how to cut or prep the thing you are going to do on YouTube. Watch a couple of videos. Blue apron has good ones, but YouTube will also often jump to the good stuff if you are willing to use Google's search.

Most useful: basic knife skills should help you cut cucumbers and zucchini better. After that, broccoli can be really efficiently removed from the stem. Lemons can be fairly easily quartered and de seeded if quartered vertically. Literally anything else and whatever cut, just watch some videos. Onions - there are nice ways to dice them. Etc etc

3) be kind to yourself; prep the kitchen a bit ahead of time. Clean surfaces. Pre measure ingredients into bowls. Keep a trash bowl near your cutting board so you don't have to walk to the garbage bin. Start the timer after you've done a little work to get things ready, but before you've turned on any heat or sliced any vegetables (eventually, the prep step will be super fast or you can optimize your kitchen for your flows)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by scaryclam on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:57AM (#25822366)
A trash bowl is a really under-recommended thing to have where you're working. A tidy space is much easier to work in, so having somewhere to quickly put the offcuts and mess is a really simple thing, but makes for a way better cooking space. AND you can move it with you/put it out of the way when it's not needed.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dragontamer on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:39AM (#25818897)
There's a concept called "Mise en place", which basically is some french phrase which means "Prepare your stuff".

Do all your measuring of ingredients at once. Once all of the ingredients are measured, then combining them when needed becomes far more efficient, instead of context-switching.

Alternatively, use a scale. Keep your dish you're baking on the scale, and just keep adding stuff until the right amount of weight is added. IMO, the scale methodology is far easier.

----

As far as "chopping an onion", there's a safe way to slice food. You want the knife to be very sharp, then when you do a slight "slicing" motion, you can feel the bite. When you feel the bite, that's when you can press down, knowing that the knife won't slip on the onion and slice off a chunk of your skin.

If you push down before you feel the bite, you may have the top of the knife slide off the top off the onion and onto your fingers. With a dull knife, that's not a big deal (but a dull knife means you're not really going to be cutting very quickly...)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bobthepanda on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:06AM (#25819382)
There’s also something to be said about the proper knife motion.

A knife is not a saw. One should try to cut down and forward, away from you. And you should slightly protrude your knuckles out so that your knife is away from your fingers as it is against your knuckles.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by KineticLensman on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:51AM (#25820071)
It also helps if you use a large knife with a curved blade, so that you can rock it along its length. This is great for quickly dicing veg into really tiny pieces (grain of rice size).
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dragontamer on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:37AM (#25822165)
> It also helps if you use a large knife with a curved blade, so that you can rock it along its length. This is great for quickly dicing veg into really tiny pieces (grain of rice size).

IMO: If you're going that small, get a food processor.

Food processors are very useful in a number of recipes: homemade cuts of ground beef (ever try Rib-eye burgers?), breadcrumbs, casserole?

----------------

Similarly, if you're julienne (aka: french cut) a lot, consider a mandoline slicer. A knife can be used, but dedicated tools are faster and more efficient.

The knife is the general purpose cutter. But there are many other cutting tools that are better at making certain shapes.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by KineticLensman on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:42PM (#25826390)
I use knives or food processors but the knife is sometimes faster (IMO) because there is less equipment to find / wash. I would almost always use a processor for breadcrumbs but an onion that I wanted to dice - I'd just use the knife.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bobthepanda on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:38PM (#25825641)
Eh, for some veg that you slice that thin you probably want a knife to preserve shape. Thinly sliced scallions come to mind.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by klodolph on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:09AM (#25820181)
Knives with straight edges work well too, it’s just that the techniques are completely different. If you are used to using a curved knife, the straight knife will seem clumsy and slow, but it’s not.

I would recommend a (curved) chef's knife for most people, though.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by fpoling on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:33AM (#25819945)
People underestimate the utility of good sharpening tools.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mprovost on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:12AM (#25820519)
Yes! One of my best travel hacks was to buy a "key ring" pocket sharpener. I found myself staying in Airbnbs (back when that was a thing) with terrible knives. It's a pain to travel with your own knife through airport security though. But you can bring a sharpener and it makes a huge difference even with a poor quality knife.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:37PM (#25818207)
Prep time only includes preparation steps listed in the recipe, never time to prepare or measure the ingredients. So a recipe that calls for "5 onions, finely chopped" won't count the peeling & chopping time. But when it says "sautee onions for 5 minutes" that's where the "5 minutes of prep" comes from. "Cooking time" is usually the unattended cooking time, where something is just boiling in a pot or baking in an oven.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by repiret on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:16AM (#25818424)
There are three tricks to chopping an onion quickly:

1. A sharp knife. This is a must for just about anything in the kitchen. While the price tag of a name brand German or Japanese knife might scare you off, a $5 Kiwi #171 knife from Amazon or eBay can serve you well, and will kick the pants of the knives found in a lot of home kitchens.

2. Don't cut the root off until the very end. If this were a decade ago, I'd write more about technique, but the reality is you're better served by watching a few someones do it on youtube than reading what I type.

3. Practice.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by MisterBastahrd on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:33AM (#25819549)
4. Don't screw around with a chef's knife for cutting a large root vegetable. Buy a chinese vegetable cleaver. Weight matters when cutting through thick veggies, even with a sharp knife. A cleaver adds the weight for you and gives you a convenient bench scraper for collecting the veggies to add to whatever bowl you're keeping them in.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by fpoling on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:41AM (#25820007)
My experience is that a brand of knife is less relevant than having a good sharpening tool that can be used instantly to regularly sharp the knife. Surely a knife with good balance and grip helps, but any knife requires regular sharpening, German or Japanese.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by andi999 on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:40AM (#25818907)
Probably it is too obvious to you, but I want to point out even good German knifes need to be sharpened regularily. (Just a few pulls through the knife sharpener). I know people who do not do that and are suprised that the knifes do not cut that well.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by PeterisP on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:11PM (#25826672)
At least for me (or is it the onions we have?), peeling the onion is the tricky part and takes as much time or more as chopping the onion, and cutting off the root helps with that.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by johnisgood on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:38AM (#25818558)
It is a good thing to have a sharp knife if you are into making food from scratch, because if you are, you will be using the knife a lot.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by dragontamer on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:44AM (#25818935)
Also, know the difference between honing and sharpening.

The edge of a knife is very fragile, because it is very very thin. As such, when you use the knife's edge, it will eventually "bend over".

A honing edge straightens the edge again. That's not "sharpening", its just pushing a stick against the knife edge to realign everything. It will cut better once you hone it.

https://www.globeequipment.com/learning-center/wp-content/up...

-----------

"Sharpening" is when you remove metal from the edge of the knife.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0001/8425/4516/files/messe...

Honing should be done every time you use the knife. Sharpening should only be done every month (if you use the knife a lot) or once every year (if its a rarely used knife)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Merman_Mike on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:19AM (#25818441)
And #3 is about 95% of it, like most of cooking.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by taurath on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:30AM (#25818508)
Best practice - get a bag and make French onion soup. By the 4th onion with a YouTube video with proper technique you will be screaming fast comparatively. And French onion soup is delicious
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by repiret on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:10AM (#25819081)
No amount of practice will make you proficient with a dull knife.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by thelittleone on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:16AM (#25820985)
Ceramic knives cut through onions like butter.

Special mention for the peculiarity that Kyocera makes amazing ceramic knives, and on the subject that Peugeot makes amazing salt and pepper grinders.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by violetgarden on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:31PM (#25817788)
Same!! I cannot do things like “while x is boiling, chop the vegetables.” I have to get everything prepped before I cook because I’m not skilled enough yet to be able to multitask.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by asdfasgasdgasdg on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:08AM (#25818387)
I think this is quite common. Don't let it stress you out. Context switching is something we all have to do from time to time. You can't decide to sit down and review all of the code you'll ever be sent to review in your life. It would be nice to block off a month and knock that task out with great temporal locality. But, much of the code you need to review won't be sent until a few years from now, so you just can't. You can't make an infinitely large batch.

Context switching makes sense when the cost of the switch is less than the time saved by doing the switch. For a beginner cook or someone whose knife skills aren't that great, maybe the cost of the switch is very high or the benefit is relatively low. Or maybe the window of idle time is not sufficient to accomplish the critical work. In this case, you just have to move the critical work earlier into the process and accept some down time.

That being said, one thing I have found is that if I'm really FOCUSING on cooking, sometimes the idle moments are larger and the context switching costs are less than I had though, and maybe I can mix some prep in with cooking. The problem comes in when you're constantly checking your phone or chatting or whatever in between the cooking steps. That can really slow you down.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by taurath on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:58AM (#25819020)
Many many of the recipes out there are terrible for exactly this reason and you have to read and reread the recipe at least a few times before starting. Plus the whole recipe internet is kinda a SEO cesspool which doesn’t prioritize good recipes.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by yoz-y on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:40AM (#25819247)
Evaluating and bubbling up good recipes is hard though. Everyone’s tastes differ and the telling thing is that comments sections are always littered with stuff like “I loved the recipe. I just removed half the sugar, replaced apples with lemon and cooked it for twice as long”
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by PeterisP on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:14PM (#25826709)
A big issue with things like “while x is boiling, chop the vegetables.” is that they depend on the number of people you're cooking for - I've had a bad experience with recipes where I do that when I do the same thing for twice as many people; because it takes twice as much chopping and suddenly the other stuff has been in the heat for far too long.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by neor on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:55AM (#25819677)
Chopping and cutting is a skill you need to get the hang of. I'm nowhere near a pro level of doing this, but I've become quite fast at it.

It sounds a bit dorky, but it really helps to look up on YouTube how a pro cuts an onion for example. You'll realise that most people are cutting them wrong, and that the "correct" way speeds up the cutting process massively.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by rytis on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:41AM (#25820358)
Many times this! I don't care about speed that much, but proper technique makes cutting a lot safer activity.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by croon on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:05AM (#25819749)
> Recipes that claim “5 minutes of prep” are more like 20 minutes for me. It can be very discouraging.

Always when discussing recipes with friends (I realize now how curiously frequent that is) the stated time is almost always too low for most people. So you're far from alone there, even among people who "can cook".

I consider myself and my wife equals in cooking, but she is definitely much faster than me, and is of the rare kind who can complete most (new) recipes within the specified time, while I prepare slower and always go back many times to double check things. But she's the outlier, not me, at least from my anecdotes.

I could probably work on chopping faster and less "perfectionistic", but the recipe part after getting used to dishes is where I make up most time after a few times.

Once you get a hang of a region's cuisine, you get a feel for how measurements fit and what seasoning works, and that's how I like to cook.

Which is also why I don't like baking, since there's a lot less wiggle room for improv.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by nicoburns on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:23AM (#25820259)
> Chopping an onion takes what feels like an eternity.

It's definitely partly practice, but make sure you have a decently sharp knife (you don't need to get anything ridiculously expensive but you should be paying ~£20 for one knife). The cheap "sharp knives" you get for £20-30 for a whole set tend to not actually be that sharp and make it really difficult to cut through things like onions because they slip all over the place.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by stevesimmons on Monday January 18, 2021 @07:43AM (#25821220)
Sharp knives are a must!

I got my high quality but very old knives professionally sharpened a few months ago. It made a world of difference and cost something like £25 for 5 chef's knives, scissors and a serrated bread knife.

The guys I went to (in south London [1]) do most of their business renting knife sets to restaurants: each chef has two sets of knives; every few weeks they come by to drop of the newly sharpened set and take the other set away to sharpen back at their workshop.

Their tip is rather than paying full retail price for quality knives, buy knives through them. They'll recommend what's best for your needs and budget. You can save even more by buying from their restaurant rental stock, freshly resharpened, for something like 1/8th of what you'd pay new in a store.

[1] http://www.collini.co.uk/ in Balham (55 Fontenoy Road, SW12 9LX). If you take your knives to them for sharpening, you can watch them do it, on large, 1950s era motorised grindstones. Absolutely fascinating.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by taeric on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:45PM (#25817859)
The prep time doesn't typically include the time to prepare any ingredient. So, if it has chopped onions as an ingredient, they assume already chopped. (Now, if they just have onion and include chopping in directions, bets are off.)
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by ufo on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:02PM (#25817969)
To be honest, the times listed on recipe websites are often too optimistic.

That said, for chopping it really helps to have a sharp knife. A dull knife takes longer to do the job and it's also more likely to cause an accident.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by kadoban on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:14PM (#25818041)
Times listed on recipe websites can go beyond optimisic as well and into just plain being physically impossible. One example I remember: https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/05/how-to-cook-onions-...
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by retzkek on Monday January 18, 2021 @09:07AM (#25821896)
> for chopping it really helps to have a sharp knife. A dull knife... is also more likely to cause an accident.

This is true, but sharp knives also require good handling skills. If someone has been using dull knives their whole life they will almost certainly cut themselves if given a sharp knife, unless they are also re-trained on how to use them.

Watch an episode of "Worst cooks in America" and count how many hands Ann has drawn on with a red Sharpie.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by yen223 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:59PM (#25817954)
Apologies for stating the obvious, but cutting and chopping are skills. Like any skills, you will suck at it at first, but time and practice will speed up your prep time.

There's a huge difference between having to consciously cut vegetables, and being able to do it via muscle memory.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by distantaidenn on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:32PM (#25817789)
Taking the time to learn the basics of cooking pays back exponentially. In addition to the health and costs benefits, I find it extremely cathartic. And anecdotal, but I love the look on my friends and partner's face when they are enjoying a dish I've made.

With a few basic skills you can whip up so many tasty dishes.

My little secret: a homemade white sauce seafood pasta. It's embarrassingly easy to make, and wows my guests every-time.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by patrickdavey on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:36PM (#25818197)
Care to share your embarrassingly easy recipe? :)
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by staz on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:31AM (#25819539)
Sorry to add to the pile of comments, but I really recommend you watch a couple of video on cutting technique (like five minutes longs video, no need to nerd the whole thing out). Not only having all your fingers is good, but knowing you are safe will empower you to progressively raise the speed of your movements. It's a skill, you get better with time and practice.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by jusssi on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:12AM (#25819425)
My process for onions:

* Cut both of the heads off.

* Peeling. I don't try to remove the dry peel, instead I just remove the whole outmost layer, comes off with a shallow cut then removing it. Yeah it's a bit of a waste, but often that first layer isn't in a great shape and you'd toss it anyway.

* Cut in half, place the halfs flat side down. Much easier to do the rest when it doesn't try to roll away from under you.

* Cut to slices without breaking the pack (i.e. keep it half-onion shaped). This is probably easier to do with a small knife than a large one.

* Cut the sliced packs orthogonally to previous cuts. Done, except if you want a tiny mush (in that case, use a bigger rounded edge knife, cut with a rolling movement so that the tip end of the blade keeps in contact with the board; same technique also works great for garlic).

As others have pointed out, you'll want a sharp knife (a knife sharpener is a good investment). Cut with sideways motion with a hint of downward pressure, instead of just trying to press down through the onion.

Edit: Forgot the first step.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by aden1ne on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:28AM (#25819520)
Additionally, a lot of people use a knife that is considerably too small for the task. I used to be one of them. It may look intimidating at first, but a bigger knife chops so much better!
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Xylakant on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:41AM (#25819599)
you really want to use a proper chefs knife for all these tasks. The primary reason is that the knifes size and shape allow you to anchor it on the cutting board while making the cut. Having an anchor point allows you to make fast, precise and safe cuts. Another important point: Use a sharp knife. Dull knifes require much more force and are much more likely to slip - the injury risk is significantly increased.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by egwor on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:14AM (#25820547)
It is all to do with practice and techniques. Get yourself a copy of Leith's How to Cook. Link I just googled: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leiths-Cook-School-Food-Wine/dp/184...

A few things:

* It will show you how to cut and the correct techniques to use. Have a look at the Amazon 'look inside' to see how to cut onions, carrots and asparagus

* When cutting things like carrots, are you cutting one carrot or multiple? (the next point is important for this)

* Are your knives sharp? There should be almost no effort cutting through a carrot, for example.

Background to Leiths:

* They're a real cooking school that teaches professional chefs assuming very little knowledge

* It was set up by Prue Leith and Caroline Waldegrave. Prue Leith is one of the judges on the Great British Bakeoff.

* Leiths is well known in London for both their professional courses and for amateur ones too (e.g. a day to de-bone a chicken)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by kozhevnikov on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:46AM (#25820382)
Checkout J. Kenji López-Alt on YouTube. He's is food writer (Serious Eats/Food Lab) and a chef and during lockdown he started making POV videos of him cooking for his family. You can see it in near-real time and pick up on techniques and shortcuts not normally emphasised.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mprovost on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:07AM (#25820500)
I can also really recommend Adam Ragusea. All of his recipes are optimised for the home kitchen and he shows all of the steps including preparation (although sometimes sped up). He also has a lot of tips about not using so many pans etc.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by alan_n on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:44AM (#25823562)
Apart from the other tips given, in particular proper technique:

Try doing a few meals in a row with similar ingredients and chop once for like the next 2-3 days (depending on what's being chopped).

Also you can try timing yourself. See how long it takes to chop an onion, record it. Now you know the REAL prep time for a recipe based on it's ingredients.

What really saves time is having an idea what order you're going to do things and how to parallelize tasks, but for that you need to have some intuition about time so you don't accidently burn something. There's a recipe I make that takes twice as long if strictly prepped first then cooked.

Also, just going to state the obvious, but if you're cooking for more than two people, it's just always much harder.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by vmception on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:25PM (#25818133)
The same people that would be dismissive of your experience here are the same people that would be dismissive of the concept of getting specific groceries delivered while the world changes before their eyes.

Basically everyone just stopped talking to them and chose the more convenient solution.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bsder on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:29PM (#25818161)
This is not at all unusual in cooking articles.

There was a nice article talking about how long it actually takes to caramelize onions. Everything says like 20 minutes when it actually takes almost an hour.

Cookbooks and recipes with rigor are few and far between.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by SamBam on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:02AM (#25818351)
I always hate that frequent retort, though, because people are always saying "this recipe says caramelize the onion for 20 minutes, and that's impossible, this recipe will take an hour!" but they're attacking the wrong thing: cook the onions for 20 minutes, then quibble about whether "caramelizing" is the scientifically-correct word.

The intent of the recipe is almost always to cook the onions for the time stated. Chefs were referring to softened, browned onions as "caramelized" for decades before the chemists started coming in and saying "well, actually that isn't technically caramelized..."

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bsder on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:01PM (#25827780)
> cook the onions for 20 minutes, then quibble about whether "caramelizing" is the scientifically-correct word.

Except that this is wrong. It makes a world of difference in how the recipe tastes. And you have to be a relatively experienced cook to know to flag this.

"Cooked" onions are generally soft but still acrid.

"Caramelized" onions are starting to get hard again because of browning and are sweet with no acrid flavor at all.

Those are two VERY different flavor profiles.

And that's before we get to the point that we have to wait 40 extra minutes for the caramelized onions while everything else is waiting because you expected that it only took 20.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by SamBam on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:42AM (#25833798)
No, I know there's a difference, what I'm saying is that any recipe that says "caramelize the onions for 20 minutes" means cook the onions for 20 minutes.

I gather you think very poorly of chefs and recipe writers, but, really, no recipe-writer tests a recipe by cooking the onions for an hour and then writes "20 minutes" to try and win some speed sweepstakes.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by astura on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:21AM (#25818796)
I've noticed in my part of America when people say "caramelized onions" they don't mean dark brown fully caramelized onions. They usually just mean cooked onions. I expect when I order a dish that advertises "caramelized onions" I'll get cooked onions 99 times out of 100. I was well into my 20s before I ever even had fully caramelized onions. (and I really wasn't impressed if I'm being honest)

However, I also noticed in Montreal "caramelized onions" actually always meant caramelized onions.

So it's just really just poor terminology rather than a ploy to fool you.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by bsder on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:09PM (#25827856)
I would argue its more a function of "time".

Nobody in America is going to wait an hour for food outside of the high-end restaurants. So, anything with "caramelized onions" would need to prep and store that step with the associated degradation.

The exception was my favorite cheesesteak place (sadly now gone--the owners got old and retired). The owner literally had a row of chopped onions that stretched the length of the grill. As he cooked he would keep adding onions on the far right while moving the entire line of onions leftward--so the onions that got used actually had enough time to truly caramelize. Similarly for the steak, just much faster. When everything got to the far left (steak with cheese (people who want CheeseWhiz could go somewhere else thanks), onions, bun) his wife would assemble the full thing.

It was a thing of beauty to watch them work. And the cheesesteak was glorious.

And now I'm hungry and craving a cheesesteak that doesn't exist anymore. :(

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by blondin on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:12PM (#25818026)
"mise en place" or prep work (not the one you mention in your comment) is important. you'd be surprised how much time is wasted chopping onions, boiling veggies, marinating meat, etc.

these should be done in advance if not the day before.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by nicbou on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:47AM (#25820773)
I have more experience in the kitchen, and those estimates are still way off. I don't even pay attention to them.

Cooking is a nice break from screen-based activities. I put a podcast or some music on, and cook myself something nice. Since it's a hobby, I don't worry too much about efficiency.

That being said, after making a recipe once or twice, I always transcribe them, along with minor optimisations. Unlike some recipe creators, I don't have a dish washer, so these little optimisations matter.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by secondcoming on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:45AM (#25820379)
Get yourself a Slow Cooker. You just chuck a load of ingredients into it and turn it on for a few hours. Minimal prep (you may need to peel a carrot) and no need to schedule tasks.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by account42 on Monday January 18, 2021 @08:49AM (#25821722)
Unless you are just slow cooking all the time, getting a multicooker is probably a better investment. Those can usually slow cook just fine, but also cook rice or pressure cook if you need something faster.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by andreareina on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:42AM (#25818580)
Fortunately there's evidence that cooking is easier to learn than writing software :)

Mise en place[1] is implicit in recipes, but as you say it does make the listed timings misleading.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mise_en_place

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by tomjen3 on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:19AM (#25820580)
I highly recommend looking up basic cooking skills on youtube - just search for that phrase - there are basic knife skills that can help you chop an onion in under a minute.

For some reason those skills are not listed most cook books and I certainly didn't learn them in school.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by com2kid on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:06AM (#25818371)
First year I started cooking, dishes with sliced potatoes took over an hour to prep.

Now, eh, no problem.

Go watch some online videos about knife skills. Just knowing how to properly hold a knife çan cut prep time down.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by tayo42 on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:40AM (#25818564)
The other commenter kind of hinted at it, but there's tricks to cutting every vegetable efficiently. Humans have been cooking forever and have gotten good at it.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by sjg007 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:34PM (#25817799)
You can buy prechopped onions either fresh or frozen. Also there’s the smashy oxo onion chopper thing but it works better for garlic really.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by ycombobreaker on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:20AM (#25818444)
I used to have the smashy oxo chopper. For a beginner cook it is great. I found that it produces inconsistent sizes for anything besides "mince" so yeah, garlic works, or onions for salsa. Nowadays I would recommend taking a knife course (or at least some youtube studying) and using the chopping time as a break from thinking about work. Prep work can be cathartic, and even if time-consuming it is not time-sensitive.

Edit: realize my comment sounds negative about that chopper. while I don't use it anymore, it's cheap enough and worth trying if you are on the fence or don't enjoy the prepwork.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by soared on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:28PM (#25817772)
It’s fun to test the same recipe, but just cut the onion differently each time. It shows you how purposeful, or not, you need to be.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by OnACoffeeBreak on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:37PM (#25817815)
I absolutely agree with cleaning while cooking. Sauce has sputtered on the rage top, go ahead and wipe it off while it's still liquid. If I'm done cutting on the cutting board, rinse the board and kind off while things are cooking.

That said, I suspect that ability to clean and cook at the same time comes with experience and comfort with the cooking task. If imagine the same goes for socializing while cooking. Some meals I can do on autopilot and have the connotative capacity for other tasks, while others I ask the family to give give me some room to focus.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by jclulow on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:26PM (#25817763)
The mental cost of getting over the hump of procrastination is also not uniform. If I clean dishes in chunks at least somewhat as I go, then the kitchen is less of a catastrophe when I'm finished. I'm more likely to put off the subsequent washing and cleaning after eating if the kitchen is a ruinous crater.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by salty_biscuits on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:12AM (#25818409)
This is really an experience thing. You are experienced enough to chunk bits of the work together so that there is no context switch. Beginners can't do this, that's why experienced cooks are so much faster. They intuitively know what will "fit" together in time. This generalises to other tasks...
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Waterluvian on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:58PM (#25817944)
Oh I agree. I have to cook out of necessity, but I don't enjoy the art at all.

What makes it fun is that I make it a game of optimizing concurrency.

I just love thinking ahead and planning what operations go in what order, how, when, how few trips to the same cupboards and drawers I can make, etc.

I can make scrambled eggs, bacon, toast, and some fruit or yogurt for a family of four in six minutes without leaving a mess. (The bacon used to double the time until I decided to use a second pan and pay the price of cleaning two)

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by ycombobreaker on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:29AM (#25818502)
My wife started cooking bacon in the oven or toaster oven. It increases latency from a cold start (preheating) but I find it takes less attention that a stovetop, and the result is still tasty. I am curious if you have experimented with that, specifically because as you state you enjoy the scheduling most.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Waterluvian on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @07:18AM (#25832721)
Yes! I found that oven bacon is pretty great and low effort. But slow. Air fryer bacon is amazing though and fast. But still I find pan bacon the most enjoyable and then I can vary the qualities so the kids get crunchy and I get soft.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Ericson2314 on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:52PM (#25818291)
Precessional kitchens needing enough throughout (e.g. Inn and Out) often have an assembly line because switching is still inefficient.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Uberphallus on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:51AM (#25820070)
If you think about it, it won't leave your brain: McDonalds restaurants are basically CPUs, especially now with the pandemic.

Instruction fetch: ordering on the touchscreen.

Instruction decoding: each component of the order gets routed to the functional unit that can handle it.

Separate functional units: fries, burger flipping, burger assembly, fridge, etc.

Superscalar: multiple functional units to do the same operation (flipping, assembly)

Pipelines: different phases (fetch/decoding/execution/store in register) happen in parallel for different instructions.

Speculative execution: the most common sub-orders (e.g. Big Mac, basic cheeseburgers) are executed before they are ordered and wait in the sub-pipeline (rack slide) until completion.

Write to register: take the results from the different funcitonal units and putting them in your bag.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Thev00d00 on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:45AM (#25820377)
I wish you could favourite comments on HN, this is great.

Edit: TIL You can! Click its timestamp, then favourite at the top.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by andreareina on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:26PM (#25817761)
Agreed. You're also not carrying nearly so much context in your head, and a lot require none, so you don't need to clobber your stack.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by gorgoiler on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:26AM (#25819179)
I believe their analogy is indeed predicated on having little to no downtime available. Think eggs Benedict for four in 15 minutes rather than a five hour brisket braise.

If you batch together cooking as well as cleaning tasks just because they both happen to be in the kitchen one ends up getting overwhelmed by both context switching as well as motivation.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by vector_spaces on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:58AM (#25819014)
Even in a kitchen, you clean as you work. If all you do is cook, your work station is going to end up a mess, your mise en place will almost certainly go out the window, and you'll soon end up in the weeds. (source: I'm a former pastry chef)
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by rndgermandude on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:14AM (#25818749)
The context switch cost is still reasonably high. However, since you're in "idle/wait" status, you can as well use that to perform such a costly context switch and cleanup some. If you however e.g. had to stir something every minute or more, then the context switch would be too expensive, even tho you're still "idle/wait" most of the time.

I start cleaning/tidying up myself when cooking, but only "easy to clean" stuff, because more than once I have been burned by focusing too long on cleaning something more difficult to clean (or rather my food was burned a little).

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by MisterBastahrd on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:29AM (#25819527)
The reason that recipes list ingredients at the beginning and not interspersed throughout the instructions is because you can almost always measure, chop, and organize your ingredients ahead of time. Cooking is a lot less of a hassle and challenge when, as long as the heat is on, you're simply adding ingredients to a pot or pan and stirring or flipping occasionally. While what you're doing is perfectly reasonable, context switching still takes on mental effort, and chopping ingredients while things are cooking adds undue stress to the process.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Swizec on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:46PM (#25817867)
My mom always taught me that a cook leaves the kitchen cleaner than they found it.

But I burnt many things before I got the timing down. You can do half the dishwasher while eggs are frying and no more.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by aaronblohowiak on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:06PM (#25817991)
The way I like eggs, I wouldn’t have time to turn around let alone do the dishwasher... are you making a quiche?
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Swizec on Sunday January 17, 2021 @11:43PM (#25818240)
Very low heat, many duck eggs. Takes a while :)

The goal is for max runny yolk with juuuuust solid whites and no crispy brown on bottom.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by aaronblohowiak on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:36AM (#25822726)
Sounds delicious!
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by caniscrator on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:51AM (#25819655)
I think it's dependent upon the end goal that one intends to achieve and ones interest in given set of task. If the end goal against different set of task is different, context switching would be hard. People working in startups do context switching seamlessly comprising of different apparently unrelated task i.e. Development, Growth Hacking, QA, Marketing etc. The point is to find a higher purpose that engages one holistically. Procrastination won't happen then.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by rorykoehler on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:02AM (#25818348)
Even in a pro kitchen they are usually cooking and prepping multiple dishes for multiple orders at once. A friend of mine is a Michelin starred chef and they have a chefs table in the restaurant where you can watch the kitchen. The thing that struck me most while watching them work is how many things each individual chef is juggling at once. It's an art form to cook so many dishes to perfection at the same time.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by Blikkentrekker on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:35AM (#25819958)
Many dishes simply require such switching because they require two pans to finish around the same time and then combine.

What is the extreme end of this, anyway? Is the auctor asserting that we hold our lives for the week it takes for various form of dough to ferment till readiness? simply staring at the fridge that houses it?

This is also the problem with this philosophy: the vague definition of when a task be “done” or “still ongoing”.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by calaphos on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:45AM (#25820035)
A better analogy for context switching would be stowing everything away you used for making cookies before starting the next task.

What you are describing would work as an analogy for hyperthreading / smt though. Not all ressources are used because one needs to wait for things to be ready. So you do something else to keep busy in the same space as the rest of your kitchen.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by johnisgood on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:40AM (#25818563)
I disagree, too, because while you are cooking, there are a lot of other things to do in the kitchen. There are times when you are just waiting 2-3 hours. If you have unwashed dishes, that is a good time to clean it all up. Once you are done with the kitchen, feel free to do anything else until, say, the lentils are done.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by globular-toast on Monday January 18, 2021 @05:49AM (#25820407)
Yeah. The author isn't a competent cook so it's an unfortunate analogy. For a good cook, cleaning dishes isn't a context switch, it's part of the same process.

It's a shame that the top comment is calling out the analogy and completely missing the point of the article, though.

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by aqme28 on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:37AM (#25822736)
I think it's different with creative or intellectually challenging tasks that need a certain amount of concentration. I also clean while I cook, but have a lot of trouble context-switching while coding.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by macjohnmcc on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:37PM (#25817814)
It's quite different to switch between tasks when one task doesn't need your attention for a moment but quite another to switch in the middle of the tasks.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by taeric on Sunday January 17, 2021 @10:47PM (#25817870)
In both, though, take care on what you switch to. The toast example is good. If, while waiting on that you decide to clean the front yard, don't expect good toast.
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by mikeymz on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:35AM (#25818880)
Absolutely! Snatching those gaps for clean up means you are not faced with total carnage once the meal is finished. It is clearly more efficient
Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by wombatmobile on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:09AM (#25819772)
What do you cook?

1. Familiar recipes?

2. New recipes?

3. New categories of cuisine?

Are you able to integrate dishwashing activities with similar aplomb and efficiency in each of these categories?

Re:Context switching costs more than we give it credit for by ryndbfsrw on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:52AM (#25818979)
Based on this reply I assumed the topic was all about context-switching in a kitchen-environment. What a weird way to strawman