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Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by AndrewKemendo on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:11PM (#25412249)
Speaking from first hand experience as "talent" - Apple doesn't know how to make really good TV. It felt to me like it was a lot of middling, risk averse people at the middle layers of production and show running, with an inflated sense of worth . That's pretty common in hollywood - and it generally produces mediocre outcomes - not AMAZING gamechanging outcomes.

They have good line producers and of course great technical talent for set design, editing, production - but the left hand of marketing doesn't talk with the right hand and you get a lot of disjointed efforts.

If you look at Netflix, for all their downsides, they go big and hard, buy working shows based on data and don't shy away from controversy. They also have way better middle talent which I think makes the difference.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ChuckMcM on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:22PM (#25412340)
Funny reading this. A classmate of mine from USC was telling me that their production company was working with Apple to produce a show and it was not going well. Apparently among the folks they felt if Apple just filmed themselves flailing around trying to make something it would be a better show than the show they were making. They reminded me of Truffaut's "Day for Night" which we had seen in Cinema 190 (the cinema elective that engineers often take) and said it was kind of like that, only way funnier in a sad sort of way.

We have a running comparison of "LA people coming to the Bay Area to do tech because 'How hard can it be?'" and the reverse being true as well, "Bay Area people going to LA to produce television/movies because 'How hard can it be?'"

Reality is complicated, and smart people so often seem to miss that.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Austin_Conlon on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:37PM (#25413252)
Steve Jobs made a similar point a number of times based on his experience as CEO of Pixar:

> Hollywood's really different than Silicon Valley. And neither understands the other at all. People up here think being creative is some guys in their late 20s and early 30s sitting around old couches drinking beer thinking up jokes. It couldn't be further from the truth. The creative process is just as disciplined as the technical process; it requires just as much talent. And yet people in Hollywood think technology is only as deep as something you buy. There's no technical culture in Hollywood, they couldn't attract and retain good engineers to save their life, because they're second class citizens down there. Just like creative people are second class citizens in Silicon Valley.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,32207-6...

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by toyg on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:25AM (#25414713)
I don't often agree with a Jobs quote, but when I do...

My experience as a geek, on shores very far from Silicon Valley, is that engineers are second-class citizens almost everywhere, but particularly where "creatives" are on top.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by fakedang on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:33AM (#25414749)
Both actually kneel to marketers and sales tbh.

Look at any high paying industry/job, apart from FAANG tech or doctors - it's either marketing or sales at the end of the day. I'll go so far as to say that even most doctors in the US are in the sales business.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by xwdv on Monday December 14, 2020 @08:04AM (#25416998)
100%. Engineers and creatives rarely contribute directly to revenue the way marketing and sales does.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by fakedang on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:40PM (#25420482)
I kind of didn't want to put the statement out that way actually, although I didn't delve much deeper.

There are places where engineers' and creatives' opinions are valued and taken into account when making decisions, for instance certain quant funds or Hollywood studios. If you want to not be considered a second-class citizen, so to speak, work in a place where ideally your job isn't just coding or building content, but also convincing others of your own ideas (sales) and building consensus within the organization to back them (marketing).

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by thu2111 on Monday December 14, 2020 @10:38AM (#25418734)
I think this is a big part of why there is such a thing as a tech company. If you think about it, it's a weird concept to exist otherwise as basically every company uses technology. But "tech firms" as we know them are really "firms run by geeks". The people who can't get respect unless they create their own companies where they're on top from day one :(
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by jseliger on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:47PM (#25412587)
An evergreen germane to this point: http://johnsalvatier.org/blog/2017/reality-has-a-surprising-...

I do grant writing for nonprofits, public agencies, and some research-based businesses, and we get a fair number of calls from smart people who started with the best of intentions and then after a number of hours of struggle decided to seek aid.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ethbr0 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:09PM (#25413100)
> smart people who started with the best of intentions

I had two roommates try to make a structurally stable stool / box out of lumber. 3 hours later I returned to find both of them pissed off & a "box" without a square corner in sight.

Days later, I offered in a conversation with them how odd it is that dimensional lumber doesn't measure the named dimensions.

They looked at me in shock and said "Maybe that's why nothing was lining up."

That's "X does Y, because how hard can it be?" in a nutshell. But the broader takeaway is to test & validate your own assumptions -- they had a measuring tape the entire time.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ChuckMcM on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:05PM (#25412719)
One of my favorite essays.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by arethuza on Monday December 14, 2020 @05:24AM (#25415404)
The BBC had a comedy based on its own bizarre inner workings - which was actually pretty funny:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W1A_(TV_series)

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by thinkingemote on Monday December 14, 2020 @07:58AM (#25416932)
It featured almost absurd routines of "yes, yes, no", "no, yes, no" etc

My foreign friends all pointed at the screen and shouted! Anyone know what that means? Searching for yes no doesn't turn up appropriate results.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by tobylane on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:58AM (#25428691)
Possibly this from Vicar of Dibley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yXYAK757Oc
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by arethuza on Monday December 14, 2020 @08:08AM (#25417039)
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by P_I_Staker on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:37PM (#25420436)
This seems to be a recurring problem with silicon valley. Bay Area people are so arrogant, they think they can always do it better. Do to inefficiencies in the industry, it just looks from the outside like everyone is worthless, and they just need smart tech people to come and fix it. Then it turns out there were reasons for some of those things.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Austin_Conlon on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:20PM (#25412331)
Only speaking to the output, Servant by M. Night Shyamalan doesn't strike me as risk-averse overall despite the micromanaging detail from the article, and Ted Lasso is widely considered to be top tier.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by SoSoRoCoCo on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:14PM (#25413125)
> Apple doesn't know how to make really good TV. It felt to me like it was a lot of middling, risk averse people

What, no love for Ted Lasso? (I love that show, but I'm tired of grim gloomy edgy death-philic television. It's a nice change without being Hallmark.)

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by mns on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:22AM (#25414390)
I love that show, the only thing from Apple TV I actually watched. Got a subscription for buying something from them, and after 7 months decided to give it a go and try something less dark and gloomy. This is such a lighthearted gem, the perfect thing to watch for me right now. Not too much drama, just pure feel good stuff, don’t even know how to describe it, but I love that show.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by specialist on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:23AM (#25414998)
Their documentary Home gets me right in the feels too. Just terrific.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Austin_Conlon on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:46AM (#25415146)
It feels kind of Hallmark style and hagiographic to me, but it's still interesting and I've only watched three so far. The Indonesian bamboo architecture story is breathtaking.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Austin_Conlon on Sunday December 13, 2020 @11:20PM (#25413504)
I'm not even sure if "comedy" is the right category for it, considering how moving and poignant it is on top of Ted Lasso's folksy yet self-aware shtick. It's a breath of fresh air seeing a character manipulate situations by being a genuinely good person instead of yet another sinister anti-hero.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by bruceb on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:36PM (#25413245)
Well not sure if they have good editing either. I saw the first episode of Tehran the other day, two noticeable errors. Passengers are on a commercial airline, but on the first outside shot it looks like a smaller corporate jet. Later when it lands it looks like a commercial jet.

Later the same plane takes off from Tehran and there is a Southwest airlines jet in the background, like its supposed to be Tehran, not Phoenix. One hardly needs to be an aviation expert to notice these things. How could a well funded production miss two thing in the first episode of a show?

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Austin_Conlon on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:52PM (#25413337)
I don't think they were involved with the content of Tehran at all, only they acquired the rights to distribute it worldwide later on. You can also tell because there's no Apple hardware shown.

However, in Servant, there's a continuity error where an Audi is shown without the emblem in one scene and then with it in another scene. This is especially surprising because Servant probably has the best Apple TV+ cinematography.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by bruceb on Sunday December 13, 2020 @11:02PM (#25413408)
ah, thanks for the clarification, that make more sense. I guess that can somewhat excuse the Southwest airlines goof if not American makers, but doesn't excuse showing different jets as the same plane
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by fredophile on Sunday December 13, 2020 @11:18PM (#25413489)
> How could a well funded production miss two thing in the first episode of a show?

You must not have seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF5v0Y1uM7g

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by 1123581321 on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:17PM (#25421051)
Tehran was made by Israeli KAN 11, a public TV channel roughly equivalent to a BBC channel.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ksec on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:19PM (#25421894)
That is the problem I have with Apple Services as a whole, that is Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple News+ and Apple Arcade.

None of these were started because Apple thinks they could do better and contribute something, a word Steve Jobs likes to use. They are doing it simply because they needed those Services Revenue. Something to dilute down their near 100% App Store Margin and Google Search Placement.

Apple Music was something they wanted to save iTunes / Music as a Business. And they bought in Jimmy Iovine for that god damn "Next Song" idea.

Apple TV+ and Apple Arcade were part of the grand plan for Apple One. Unlike iCloud, Apple Music and Apple News+, Apple TV and Arcade does not have any per unit cost. iCloud are cost / GB, Music are cost per song played, and News are cost per article read. TV shows and Arcade Games are paid as a whole at a fixed cost regardless of users. This give opportunity for Apple to bundle them at a discount.

One could argue Apple Fitness+ is more like iTunes where it is used to sell more Apple Watch / iPod. And it isn't out yet so I am giving it some benefits of doubt.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by enos_feedler on Monday December 14, 2020 @05:11PM (#25424084)
I think there are a lot of assumptions in here about _why_ certain products and services were created. It is much harder for us to figure this out, looking from the outside.

For Apple Fitness+, it might sell more watches, but the reason it requires a watch is because the product includes sensors that read useful data during the fitness experience that other devices simply don't have.

Given Tim Cook has stated publicly that what Apple wants to be most known for when looking back on the company is improvements to people's health, I don't think Fitness+ was spun up to sell watches. It was created out of a genuine priority for the company to have a certain impact on the world.

I also don't believe the purpose of Apple TV+ and Arcade was to create Apple One. It seems like they genuinely are trying to come up with a unique service for these two areas. Apple One is just a bundling. They are also responses to growing problems. Apple Arcade is an answer to the growing problem of in app purchases and advertising. They want to create a pure, fun gaming experience that you can put in front of your kids and not worry about it. I think Apple TV+ is more about business deals required to build the Apple TV app itself. You aren't going to have a seat at the table if you aren't serious about buying and delivering content.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by jcfields on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:23PM (#25412835)
I would guess that Apple doesn't want any controversy from their media side harming the reputation of the other parts of the company, which is probably a sensible decision. Netflix is in a different position since the "media part" of the company is the entire company. Not sure how Amazon fits into all this because I'm not familiar with their offerings.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ethbr0 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:14PM (#25413129)
I think it's abundantly clear Bezos gives no shits about controversy from one side harming another: how much profit does it make?

So basically, The Boys where Vought=Amazon & superheros=Amazon divisions.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by ayewo on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:28AM (#25415031)
Absolutely. Unfortunately, although Tim Cook has been at Apple for decades, he can't make the kind of bold, risky decisions that a founder who's been there from day 1 would.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by specialist on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:20AM (#25414984)
Agreed. Even more so than Disney. I'm still surprised Apple is now doing original content.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by Alex3917 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:54PM (#25412633)
All of their video games look completely paint-by-numbers also. It's hard to imagine many people continuing to subscribe to these services once the free trials run out.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by 2muchcoffeeman on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:29PM (#25412868)
Yeah. So much potential too. Decently powerful streaming device that can play decent games. And can connect to BT controllers. But there’s nothing on it to play.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by mcphage on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:46PM (#25412975)
Apple doesn’t directly produce any video games, though. They may provide some funding, but most Apple Arcade titles appear on other platforms. And many of them are quite excellent. (There’s also a lot more of them out, so it’s easier to evaluate them as a whole)
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by viktorcode on Monday December 14, 2020 @07:14AM (#25416426)
Apple makes just one video game, chess. What they sell is not their own. Many of those games are available elsewhere, like consoles and Steam.
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by nicolas_t on Monday December 14, 2020 @05:21AM (#25415379)
Don't agree with you on that. There's quite a few great games in apple arcade. Pilgrims, Beyond a Steel Sky, Neo Cab, Necrobarista, Takeshi and Hiroshi

Those are more indie titles, they are rather original and different from AAA titles and don't have the refinement of AAA titles when it comes to graphics et al. But they are absolutely not paint-by-numbers

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by not4ew00 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:53PM (#25413014)
Apple services are designed for broad adoption. They are the Disney of tech.

Non-tech, typical parents will stick with their vertical rather than be nickeled and dimed by Netflix, and Amazon, and CBS, and...

I’m pretty sure how the 20th Century thought about this stuff is on the way out.

My kids have no clue what any the names on those icons mean. They watch random stuff and don’t cling given the diversity.

I am teaching my kids to make content with modern tools. ML will no doubt take over.

Consider how much textual content we have given the internet. ML will be able to generate video and audio and where we need new ideas, help humans iterate much faster.

The emotional value of any given property will nose dive as it happens. Mario and Solid Snake will be lost to time. Really though, unlike Aristotle, or Galileo, will humanity have lost anything near the overall value?

Pop culture isn’t forever.

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by madeofpalk on Monday December 14, 2020 @06:12AM (#25415725)
> They have good line producers and of course great technical talent for set design, editing, production

I don't understand this - these are Apple people themselves? I was always under the impression that external production companies were making these TV shows and Apple was just buying the rights. They might (or might not, if you ask Apple) make editorial decisions, but I never expected Apple to have technical talent and input for set design, etc/

Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by jmcgough on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:20PM (#25412332)
Could you explain what you mean by middle talent / middle layers?
Re:Apple TV Was Making a Show About Gawker. Then Tim Cook Fo... by AndrewKemendo on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:43AM (#25413961)
Sure, think of any movie or TV show kind of like a startup or a company.

The Executive Producers are like the Board. The show runner, director and sometimes certain talent are like the C-Suite or SVPs. These set the vision, pace, hiring, management, budgeting etc... like in a normal business.

There are then the middle level directors (casting, lighting, sound) editors and line producers who do the lions share of the work and are supposed to interpret the intents of the director and show runners - basically handle all the details and make sure things run smoothly.

Finally the supporting cast, craft services etc...are basically told what to do, how to do it and when.