News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by themgt on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:18AM (#24695173)
While this article's content isn't exactly wrong, the Wikipedia on "Identical ancestors point" gives some important context for what's actually being asserted:

All living people share exactly the same set of ancestors from this point back, all the way to the very first single-celled organism. However, people will vary widely in how much ancestry and genes they inherit from each ancestor, which will cause them to have very different genotypes and phenotypes.

This is illustrated in the 2003 simulation as follows: Considering the ancestral populations alive at 5000 BC, close to the ACA point, a modern day Japanese person will get 88.4% of his ancestry from Japan, and most of the remainder from China or Korea, with only 0.00049% traced to Norway; conversely, a modern-day Norwegian will get over 92% of his ancestry from Norway (or over 96% from Scandinavia) and only 0.00044% from Japan. Thus, even though the Norwegian and Japanese person share the same set of ancestors, these ancestors appear in their family tree in dramatically different proportions.

A Japanese person in 5000 BC with present-day descendants will likely appear trillions of times in a modern day Japanese person's family tree, but might appear only one time in a Norwegian person's family tree. A 5000 BC Norwegian person will similarly appear far more times in a typical Norwegian person's family tree than he will appear in a Japanese person's family tree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by titzer on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:48AM (#24695289)
An intuition about the "appearing trillions of times in a family tree" is to realize that family trees are actually a binary tree extending backwards in time--i.e. each person has exactly two parents, who have exactly two parents, and so on. So N generations back, there are 2^N individuals. Obviously, there weren't 2^100 people on Earth at any point in time, so this backwards tree starts folding back on itself, containing duplications. Go back far enough and there is a set of individuals who were alive at a particular point in time that completely cover that forward tree.

It helps to visualize this more as a mesh than a tree, or as a flowing river. The river divides around rocks and obstructions (those are points of temporary divergent evolution) but ultimately all flows together (convergent ancestry). We are truly one body of genetic material, and yet each is a unique combination of backwards traces.

It's really very cool IMHO.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by coldtea on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @06:21AM (#24696284)
>Go back far enough and there is a set of individuals who were alive at a particular point in time that completely cover that forward tree.

So like Adam and Eve? :-)

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by genghizkhan on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @06:24AM (#24696299)
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by acjohnson55 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @09:08AM (#24697270)
I'm trying to square those articles, which put Y-chromasomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve >100kya with the Identical Ancestor Point, which is only 5000-15000ya.

I guess it's kind of like the difference between a permutation and a combination.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by bzbarsky on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:08AM (#24697775)
This is talked about in the article too: You do not have genes from all your ancestors, because any given person only contributes half their genes to their children. So you have to go much further back to find a point when someone's genes would be present in all modern-day humans.

In particular, if you have a male ancestor at the Identical Ancestor Point but the lineage from them to you passes through a woman at any point in the family tree, you would not get that male ancestor's Y-chromosome via that line of descent.

Or put yet another way, if you are male, you have 2^N (possibly overlapping) ancestors N generations back, but only _1_ ancestor N generations back that contributed your Y-chromosome. Comparing to a different male, the chance that you share Y-chromosomes is naively something like 1/P where P is the size of the male population at the time, while the chance that you share your ancestor sets is a much more complicated calculation, and the article claims it's ~1.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by btilly on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:59PM (#24699965)
Simple explanation. It is the difference between "things have mixed so much that everyone is your ancestor somehow" and "on a strict matrilineal or patrilineal descent, everyone winds up at the same thing".

In the first the path goes through both fathers and mothers. This is easier to achieve, and so you get to it more recently. The second is harder and so happened longer ago.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by sjburt on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:17AM (#24697863)
Adam and Eve are along the male (or female) line, whereas the common ancestor could be anywhere in your family tree. So 10 generations back you only have a single male line ancestor but 1024 ancestors total.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by chasil on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @01:40AM (#24705605)
Mhitochrondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam likely could not have met.

There was too much time between them.

We focus too much on these two inputs, and forget the other (20) pairs of our nuclei.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by TeMPOraL on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:20AM (#24695698)
To play with the river analogy: and then imagine that it flows next to a dye factory, and every now and then a droplet of dye finds its way to the stream, creating a colorful streak. That's to account for random mutations.

And then what would an analogy look for prokaryotes - bacteria, archaea? If my understanding of biology is correct, it would be like an infinitely tall, densely tiered waterfall. There's some forward generational movement, but there's also plenty of lateral ones - exchanging gene packets "at runtime".

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by rendall on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @06:21AM (#24696282)
To continue playing with our river analogy: consider a man fishing beside the river, who catches a large salmon. The man is ecstatic, for he is poor, and his family is hungry. Just as he draws his knife to gut it, the fish speaks! It says "Please do not kill me. Throw me back into the river, for I am the Fish King, and I will grant you 3 wishes. You can have whatever your heart desires." Astonished, the man agrees, and throws the talking fish back into the water. He speaks his 3 wishes into the air: to be rich, to be respected, and to be young again. Time passes. The man goes home to his hungry wife and child, hands empty. A day passes. A week. Then a year, and youth, wealth and respect remain elusive. A year after that, the man is fishing by the same riverbank - and remember, this is an analogous riverbank - an analogy for our ancestry - and the man catches the same fish! Or is it? It looks the same, but it does not speak. There is no recognition in its fishy eyes. It just lays on the shore, gasping, flopping. The man decides it's just a normal fish after all.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by throwanem on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:06AM (#24696495)
The metaphor appears to have run away with you somewhat.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by rendall on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:15AM (#24696552)
It is true. It has run away with us all
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by throwanem on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:22AM (#24696591)
What are you actually talking about, though? Veiled and gnomic proclamations can be fun, but sooner or later you have to show your hand.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by rendall on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @11:55AM (#24699085)
The fish represents the lost dreams of our ancestry, if not the fishy ancestors themselves. The man is us, all of us. The hungry family is our hungry family. Or perhaps our hunger for connection to our past. The story as a whole is meaningless, and in being so, represents the randomness and chaos in which we find ourselves. Is the universe beneficent, malevolent, indifferent? We cannot know for sure. We can only stare into the dying eyes that stare at us in turn, from the mirror, and guess.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by PTOB on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @03:19PM (#24701351)
I do. This was quite entertaining.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by throwanem on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:21PM (#24699434)
Nobody likes a smartass.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by rendall on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:57PM (#24700567)
This is true and I approve this comment
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by titzer on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:39AM (#24695795)
To be clear, the river can divide, too. That's speciation, where populations no longer interbreed because their offspring are either unviable or themselves cannot produce offspring.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by nextaccountic on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @12:02AM (#24705186)
> It helps to visualize this more as a mesh than a tree, or as a flowing river.

Or: it's a DAG, not a tree.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by JPLeRouzic on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:49AM (#24695295)
The point in the article is that at many generations ago, we are heavily inbred, it is not that we are all related.

If you look at one generation ago one have 2 * 2 ^ 0 ancestors, at two generations, one have 2 * 2 ^ 1 ancestors, etc. At 27 generations one apparently has more ancestors than people in the world at that time. This apparent paradox stems from the fact that we are heavily inbred.

Thus the article is correct.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by jerzyt on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:21AM (#24695703)
> The point in the article is that at many generations ago, we are heavily inbred, it is not that we are all related.

I'm not following your point - maybe it's just a linguistic thing. To me, inbreeding implies relation, at least blood-relation, even when there was no other relation, e.g. conquering armies raping and pillaging.

No argument with your math.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by andi999 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:46AM (#24695833)
There might have been multiple separated inbreeding groups. Yes these groups are related among themselves but not inter-group.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by zuminator on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @06:55AM (#24696428)
The article is saying that every person bears some relation to each other, even among distant groups. No further back than 3500 years ago existed a person who was a common ancestor to every currently living human being.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by danaris on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:47AM (#24697113)
Nnnno; 3500 years ago, there were already clearly-separated groups of humans on different continents.

Perhaps you're off by a 0 or two...?

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @09:16AM (#24697339)
No, there were fuzzily-separated groups of humans on different continents. There was still some interbreeding across continents.

The Americas may have been clearly separated for a while, but they have done so much interbreeding with people from other continents since 1492, that the common ancestor is more recent than that.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by danaris on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:56PM (#24704895)
I guess that depends much on whether the claim is that literally every human can draw ancestry back to this common pair, or merely the vast majority, because I'm fairly sure there are still "uncontacted" indigenous peoples in the Americas...
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by pepy on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:14AM (#24696869)
Noah, that you? :D
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by xbmcuser on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:14AM (#24696538)
3500 or 35000?
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by pegasus on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:35AM (#24697028)
3500 sounds about right, if we consider only Eurasia. Otherwise, it could be farther back, but possibly not that much further, according to the wikipedia entry for Mitochondiral Eve (look for "most recent common ancestor"):

"Monte Carlo simulations suggest the MRCA was born surprisingly recently, perhaps even within the last 5,000 years, even for people born on different continents."

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by oblio on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @05:22AM (#24696003)
It would be interesting to find out the degree to which inbreeding went down in modern days. The downside of modern life is that traditional families are being torn apart but this might be an evolutionary advantage since it means that the gene pool gets a lot more mixed since I imagine inbreeding is probably much lower in cities due to much broader selection pool.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by jlawson on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @03:58AM (#24695597)
Another important point here is that genes don't divide infinitely, so that if you go back some distance, you start finding ancestors from whom you actually didn't get any DNA.

The book Who We Are and How We Got Here talks about this. When DNA recombines at conception, it only snips and stitches in a fairly limited number of places. It doesn't 'mix' finely like paint. It's more like taking two short pamphlets of ~25 pages, cutting each numbered page horizontally at a random vertical point, and then assembling a new pamphlet of the original size from each pair of pages (pamphlet A's page from above the cut, pamphlet B's from below).

All this to say that if you go back something like 800 years, you have ancestors from whom you didn't get any genes at all.

This means that these infintesimal mixings have even less impact than you'd think. A modern Japanese person could have a European ancestor who traveled to Asia a thousand years ago, but have zero genes from that ancestor. Which means that while that European is technically an 'ancestor', this is just a bit of historical trivia, it means literally nothing about that Japanese person's biology.

---

On to the color commentary:

I suspect that articles like this are heavily influenced by the politically-based drive to try to minimize intergroup genetic differences in humans. The reality is opposite the title - humans are far more distinct, especially on group levels, than is commonly understood. The notion that single common ancestors (among trillions) mean people from hugely divergent groups are 'related' in some meaningful way is just exploiting and expanding the ignorance of the public around how genetics actually work.

It's arguably a pro-social thing to do; I'd say I agree with the philosophy here, but that doesn't make it true and the 'noble lie' seems anything but to me.

The genetic evolutionary difference between distinct groups like Europeans, sub-Saharan Africans, and Australian Aborigines is something like 70,000 years of divergent evolution with very very minimal gene flow between the groups, in completely different environments. The genetic split between timber wolves and Chihuahuas was like 5,000 years ago and I bet they have common ancestors much more recently than that.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by rsynnott on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:46AM (#24697102)
> The genetic split between timber wolves and Chihuahuas was like 5,000 years ago and I bet they have common ancestors much more recently than that.

Well, for a start, this is completely wrong. Dogs diverged from wolves 20-40,000 years ago (lots of ambiguity over where exactly the divergence should be called), but from a now-extinct wolf species. While dogs and wolves _can_ interbreed, it doesn't happen naturally all that often (and when it does, it's pretty much all unidirectional; dog to wolf). Humans don't have the same issue.

A chihuahua, of course, is a result of deliberate and extreme forced breeding of a sort that (thankfully) has not really been practiced on humans. The closest parallel might be certain European royal families who had severe genetic diseases and abnormal physiology due to repeated inbreeding, but those were much, much less extreme. Dogs, though, were subject to fairly dramatic artificial selection from the start.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by JPLeRouzic on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:03AM (#24695618)
>> The genetic evolutionary difference between distinct groups like Europeans, sub-Saharan Africans, ... is something like 70,000 years of divergent evolution with very very minimal gene flow between the groups.

Any citation?

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by simonh on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @05:09AM (#24695937)
The 'recent dispersal' started some 70-50,00 years ago, reaching Europe about 40,000 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations#Homo_sa...

Europeans have pretty low levels of sub-saharan genetic markers, with some remnant markets in southern Europe dating to the late Roman era, diminishing substantially as you move north.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_admixture_in_Europe

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by etabetapi on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:38AM (#24698091)
This is tautological, sub-saharan genetic markers are found predominantly in sub-saharan populations by definition.

Given how humanity has evolved, "european" markers are a subset of the diversity found in subsaharan populations that are overrepresented from founder effects, with very few exceptions. 40,000 years ago sounds like a long time, but it really isn't.

You need an amazingly small amount of migration (about one person per generation) to keep a population in sync with each other genetically.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by simonh on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:13PM (#24699319)
I get your point. I'm somewhat surprised that the person I was responding to seemed to think it would even need a citation, but there you are.

>You need an amazingly small amount of migration (about one person per generation) to keep a population in sync with each other genetically.

Well it depends on the size of the population, but even then I don't see how this can be the case. One individual only contributes half their genes to each child, so assuming 2 surviving children that's a 25% lost immediately in the next generation. In just a few generations about half the incomer's genes will be lost in this way. The remainder will likely persist, but equally the number of their descendants that have none or very few of their genes will rise to predominate. In a stable population of 1,000 people, one single individual is unlikely to contribute much more than 1/2,000th of the genes in circulation.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by bsanr2 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:16AM (#24697842)
Low admixture, sure. And similarity of genetypes?
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by bsanr2 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @10:02AM (#24697717)
"This means that these infintesimal mixings have even less impact than you'd think. A modern Japanese person could have a European ancestor who traveled to Asia a thousand years ago, but have zero genes from that ancestor. Which means that while that European is technically an 'ancestor', this is just a bit of historical trivia, it means literally nothing about that Japanese person's biology."

It also means that a modern Japanese person has thousands of "Japanese" ancestors from whom they received zero genes. Of course, this is a bit of misdirection, as the genes that one receives are not unique, but drawn from a pool of possible genotypes common to humanity. The matter of how closely we resemble each other is not one purely of ancestry, but of the size of that pool - our overall genetic similarity. From what I gather, it's not an exceptionally large pool. I may not have gotten whatever gene controls the formation of the human prefrontal cortex from the same nth ancestor as you, but I got it all the same.

Also, where does dominance play into this, I wonder?

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by kenjackson on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:40PM (#24700957)
> The reality is opposite the title - humans are far more distinct, especially on group levels, than is commonly understood.

This really seems to have some huge assumptions in there. What is commonly understood? I don't think there is much common understanding associated with this. Except maybe that we should treat individuals as individuals, rather than make strong distinctions based on group membership, regardless of any underlying distinctions in the groups. At least that's the noble intent -- I don't think any lies are layered on this.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by ahartmetz on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:30AM (#24695758)
I agree with you about the "noble" lies. You wrote something else that I have never seen before and that seems quite interesting:

> When DNA recombines at conception, it only snips and stitches in a fairly limited number of places. It doesn't 'mix' finely like paint.

I had always assumed that clearly recognizable traits that children inherit from parents are simply based on the large influence of certain small pieces of DNA. Do you know a good text that discusses that?

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by Udik on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @05:28AM (#24696035)
> I had always assumed that clearly recognizable traits that children inherit from parents are simply based on the large influence of certain small pieces of DNA

I never understood this position from the logical point of view.

Say that you were put in front of two pictures that are entirely covered except for a small visible part each. The two visible parts of the pictures are different. Would you ever assume the parts that you can't see to be identical, or would you assume they differ from each other as much as the visible parts do?

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by jacobush on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:02AM (#24696468)
It's because DNA is not a one-to-one encoding from code to visible expression.

Some very small genes have very large visible expression. Some large chunks of DNA have very little.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by Udik on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @07:11AM (#24696525)
> Some very small genes have very large visible expression

Let me change your italics:

Some very small genes have very large visible expression

So small parts of the DNA code for changes that we can visually appreciate. This doesn't mean that the rest of the DNA contains no variations, but just that we cannot see them. But it would be wrong to assume that the only parts that are actually different are those which encode for visible characteristics.

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by Complexicate on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:44AM (#24697090)
A 2011 study identified 13 DNA variations across 11 different genes that could be used to predict hair color.

This seems like a clearly recognizable inherited trait, based on a large influence of certain small pieces of DNA. The abstract mentions eye color as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057002/

Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by golf5 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @09:46AM (#24697601)
Contradicting that narrative is probably a career ender.
Re:Humans are more closely related than we commonly think by irrational on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @04:21AM (#24695705)
Aren’t you just reiterating the entire second half of the article?