There are a million tweets condemning China’s behavior... way more than the number of tweets targeting people who are ‘cancelled’
The difference is that tweets can effect a regular person’s life, and they are ‘cancelled’. China doesn’t care. A company will act to fire a single person who behaves badly because of consumer pressure; it doesn’t cost them much and is good PR. Stopping doing business with China is a lot costlier, so they don’t give in to the same consumer pressure that they would for an individual employee.
The different outcome doesn’t mean there is some hypocrisy amongst the people tweeting their support for ‘cancelling’ someone.
It just means that tweets aren’t that powerful for real change.
Boycotting China is definitely possible, simply stop buying their goods. Vote with your wallet! If enough people do this then it will definitely have an impact, possibly even enough to bring about some real change.
I personally blame corporations and governments in Europe and the USA for the issues with China. They put money above everything.
How would you even know which products have raw materials that come from China? You will be hard pressed to find something that doesn’t have parts made in China, and even harder pressed to be able to figure that out.
Is it possible though? I’m really not so sure.
You can also support political action that takes concrete steps against China for these atrocities, rather than supporting them. There are real differences in political stances here.
You don't need to feel utterly powerless because you can't solve the problem 100%. That's always true anyhow, but especially true of something of this magnitude. It's OK; literally nobody expects that. You can take what steps you can. You are being joined by many other people.
I often think about it that way; if I'm moved enough to action because of this particular belief, then the odds are pretty good that many other people are as well. It is the actions of that group that will matter. If that group all individually concludes that their individual actions are meaningless, then the whole group will do nothing. So I choose not to act on the belief that my individual actions are meaningless.
(Essentially an argument based on superrationality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality It is obviously false that the rest of the world is entirely superrational... but it is also false that they are 0% superrational. Often too much time is spent on the irrationality of human beings... a lot of people seem to have a model of them in which they are insane crazies who never make a sane decision, but if you take that model seriously everyone covered by it would just die. Humans are often quite rational. They just really, deeply suck at explaining why they are doing what they are doing, but the actual actions are often quite rational when understood in the correct context.)
Cancel culture can hit non-famous/significant people as you describe. To me it's all about shutting down debate, and reducing free-speech.
You'd find out that 90% of "their goods" are what you consider yours and other third party goods... Even BMW's are largely made there from what I've read.
"cancel culture" here is both powerful and dangerous enough to bring down Western civilization, yet so laughably weak it cannot even pretend to solve real problems.
From Point #8
"by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak"
[0] http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fasci... [1] https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
Any strength misdirected is simultaneously “too strong” and “too weak”.
I've read that somewhere.
By the same "heuristic" anti-Trump talk is "political bullshit", because he is said to be simultanously a buffon/ineffectual loser and a very powerful insidious force.
But of course such heuristics are themselves usually selectively applied to opinions which those applying them already agree are "political bullshit".
The sell out of US manufacturing was done by people with money, not the people who dislike racism (and show it in a weird and harmful way).
Maybe from the U.S. perspective, but at this point there are heaps of countries around the world who at least claim to be dependent on China.
This is a matter of global moral cowardice; at least today, the U.S. is more ready to say no to it.
Meanwhile, all this talk of "global moral cowardice" was hardly there for hundreds of instances of the US doing all kinds of shit to third countries throughout the 20th and 21st century with bi-partisan agreement and the public hardly caring...
China is shitted upon for those detention camps (and rightly so). Meanwhile, over a million muslim deaths have been directly and indirectly (e.g. pharmaceutical and food shortages) caused by the Iraq embargo/invasion alone [1] (one of several), and people talk about China as if their shit doesn't smell...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Estimat...
Especially since they don't have and historically didn't also have any problem with all kinds of dictators, right wing governments, etc. (from Suharto and Pinochet to UAE), as long as they were allies.
> A 2017 study in the British Medical Journal described "the rigging of the 1999 Unicef survey" as "an especially masterful fraud".[12] The three comprehensive surveys conducted since 2003 all found that the child mortality rate in the period 1995-2000 was approximately 40 per 1000, which means that there was no major rise in child mortality in Iraq after sanctions were implemented.
You seem to forget that the Iraqis liked Saddam which is the only reason he stayed in power. Did they care about the genocide of the Kurds? I think not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfal_genocide
Want more proof? 15 years after Saddam was executed, they were still proceeding with their ethnic cleansing of the Kurds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Iraqi%E2%80%93Kurdish_con...
If you really want someone to blame, blame France, England, and Russia for arbitrarily drawing up countries after WW1 without considering that people in the middle east wouldn't overcome their nationalism and racism which would lead to continuous conflict.
No, I actually didn't fully read the paragraph I linked to, thought it would mention the same numbers I've read before from several sources. I now see that the entry in Wikipedia actually includes some later dispute on those numbers though!
Still, there's a big toll from 4+ invasions, bombings, destabilizing countries stable for decades, etc., even if the 500K number mentioned for Iraq at that period doesn't stand up. For example it's not disputable that we have had millions of regugees from these regions as a result of the invasions...
>If you really want someone to blame, blame France, England, and Russia for arbitrarily drawing up countries after WW1"
Oh, I absolute blame those. But also anyone later who meddled, grabbed resources and exerted influence (strategic, trade, etc.) while paying lip service to "democracy" (the modern "white man's burden").
>without considering that people in the middle east wouldn't overcome their nationalism and racism which would lead to continuous conflict.*
I'd not say it happened "without econsidering". Rather "capitalizing exactly on that this will happen, and making sure with subsequent meddling and stiring that it will". The classic old British Empire "divide and conquer" modus operandi...
Tibet is equally oppressed under CCP's boots for many decades now but nobody seems to be bothered.
I don't like this selective outrage of west.
Maybe it’s inadvertently selective?
I understand all Muslims are not involved but what stops Media from highlighting the atrocities of Muslim extemist group. Plenty of these groups exists but barely reported.
I am not sure if this is because of White guilt or Media houses are scared of Charlie Hebdo like scenario.
People like Lebron James, who thinks of himself like a freedom fighter, when he criticized China he ended up saying he was misinformed and he wasn't educated about the issue.
He loves the money coming from China more than anything else. I want him to be reminded by this. He put his millions before human lives, just like some nazi collaborators did.
You can do more. Write your representatives. Call their offices (both Democrat and Republican), and buy fewer Chinese products, even it costs more money.
Please keep in mind I'm not criticizing you here, just saying you could literally do more if you wanted to.
I do get annoyed with people who "complain online'. That's just a waste of time. Call your representatives. They will respond to thousands of phone calls from constituents saying "do X".
For some reason we think Facebook is our democracy, not our elected representatives.
It's really not. I learned about this situation by reading complaints and passive comments online.
If 10,000 people read this article and got annoyed, and then we made 10,000 phone calls, things would happen. If 10 people pick up the phone... not so much.
I still disagree with your clarification. Even ten phone calls are better than zero.
What do you say to people who don't really believe this? I don't think I'm the only one who looks at the political scene (and much of "reality" as it is projected into our brains through the media) and thinks it's largely theatre. Kayfabe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfMe0dsxk_Q Kanye and The End of Reality – Wisecrack Edition
Oh sure, you can surely find discrete examples of where the system worked as advertised, but are these examples actually representative of the overall truth?
I can't shake this feeling that if I (or most any other person from this forum who has worked on large, complicated projects with many interconnected moving parts) was tasked with managing the affairs of this planet, the organization and means of communication/documentation would not look anything at all like what we've seen with our very eyes, for many decades.
How does a person sort out what is actually true anymore?
Nothing really. They've lost faith in democracy and have given up on the country. What else is there to talk about? If you have no faith in the system and don't want to participate then I'm not sure what you want or you're expecting.
Seriously, run for city council or something. Fix the bugs the same way you would an interconnected system: find where things (money, proposals, solutions) drop out, find where things are miscommunicated, optimize, upgrade, and secure the edge systems that directly interact with the client (the people).
It might take a lot of effort and people doing this, and many many years, but I think it is a more viable long term solution than waiting for things to magically get better enough that you feel like a vote will suffice.
"Democracy" is a principle - our current implementation of it is but one of many possibilities to go about it.
Democracy (in general, and our rather arbitrary flavor of it) is only one form of governance, is there some reason we're bound to this approach? Nothing else shall be considered?
> and have given up on the country
This is speculation - it is not possible to know the thoughts, dreams, intentions of other people with accuracy.
> If you have no faith in the system and don't want to participate then I'm not sure what you want or you're expecting.
I believe I want something similar to what the BLM protesters believe they want, who are also displeased with the outputs of "the system" as it is. I'm weary of the "my way or the highway, reality is what we say it is" approach to "Democratic" governance theatre.
Can you roughly estimate the impact of your forum posts, boycotts, and all that on US government policy?
Now, if we change that by let's say moving factories back home or to Africa, they'll be in trouble.
If you're a Chinese citizen, first of all you don't have a voice. The CCP owns the country, they make the rules, and economically they don't have the upper hand. That's why the only thing they do is threaten any foreign official who won't submit to them.
This seems... economically confused. Billions flowing in from the West reflect the fact that China's internal economy is strong. If it fell apart, no money would flow in.
Way off the mark. You could have an economy on par with North Korea and build those facilities. China's economy is 100+ times larger than it needs to be to build the facilities they're building in Xinjiang. If you rolled their economy back to 1990 on a GDP per capita basis, they could still get it done with zero problems. Concrete, barbed wire, guards, guns and slave labor are most of the necessary ingredients. The most primitive of nations have what's necessary to do it.
... and if that fails, take citizens of countries they're at cold war with as hostages: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/china-charges-two-detained-c...
It is easy to think the impact is nill and that’s exactly how the opressor wants you to think, no wonder the divide and conquer is a strategy that works. But every movement starts off with a few who believe they make a difference and eventually it picks up a critical mass
For example, a woman of Han descent who had her purse snatched by a Uighur kid talked about feeling nervous and clutching her bag when she passed someone on the street. Instead of lecturing her about systemic problems as a first resort, I started by finding common ground: her experiences as a Chinese woman studying abroad in Japan, and the systemic racism she experienced.
The ally training skills I learned in the US were helpful. The more typical high-minded condescension, in contrast, tends to be counterproductive in my experience.
https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-systemic-racis...
All of this could be said about our current President and his family. He has far more power than LeBron James, maybe we should hold him accountable?
So while I certainly don't doubt that China is oppressing its minorities, I'm also loathe to believe every media report about it.
I know this isn't a popular opinion, but very objectively, western media does not have a track record of being truthful when it comes to Cold War opponents.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/17/trump-signs-sanctions-bill-ove...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Human_Rights_Policy_Act
I don't know what else Trump can do. Invading China is a bad idea.
Congress passed the sanctions bill. It passed the House 413-1 and the Senate vote was unanimous, according to your link.
Second, Lebron can do much to educate himself on China, as he’s already an activist in other areas, and he has millions of followers. But it looks like he’s educated himself on who pays his paycheck.
Lebron is free to say and support whatever he pleases. We’re all free to stop listening, stop watching and stop buying what he’s selling.
At least on a personal level, you can start looking at the place of origin of products and be ready to pay more for an alternative.
There is a subreddit where people will help you out with recommendations as well.
You can talk to your representatives about it. You can start actively boycotting Chinese-made products (not so easy, I know). You can donate to NGOs such as the UHRP (Uyghur Human Rights Project). You can follow them on Twitter.
It's not like Lebron James will solve this either, so don't blame it on him.
Lebron can't solve this but what he can do is at least talk about it. One word and millions of people would know about it.
Same thing happens with the NBA. They're very vocal about BLM but when it comes to HK...you can't even buy a t-shirt with "Free Honk Kong" on it.
A more grim view would be that in the end companies will do what's best for them. Currently It's in the NBA's best interest to support BLM since it affects their base. HK, Uyghurs, etc. doesn't really affect them and fighting a battle for it doesn't help them in anyway.
You won't see me saying "black lives don't matter" only to earn some money.
For reference, my views are aligned with Sanders but I’d vote for Trump solely based on his actions towards China.
I’d also say boycotting Made in China and companies kowtowing to China isn’t as difficult as people say. You might not be able to boycott it 100%, but it’s not that hard to find alternatives to 90+% of the products.
What is Trump doing about the concentration camps this article is about?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/politics/p...
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/25/trump-administratio...
There’s really not a single person who’s done more to stand up to China than Trump has. Just look at China’s reputation today compared to 4 years ago.. the world is finally starting to wake up to the dangers of the CCP. And I really don’t care what his motives are.. I know he probably couldn’t care less about the Uyghurs, but his actions towards China are helping the hundreds of millions of people currently and about to suffer from the CCP.
Biden went on record saying he would end Trump’s China tariffs, and we can also see how little the EU and other western countries are doing to stand up to China (and how little Biden did during his 8 years’ vice presidency)..
What I wanted to address was the single issue of China garnering votes for Trump's second term. JFK is famously quoted for this: "...Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country,..."[1] America didn't become the world's top economy by being anti-globalist. We manufactered things, we exported things, we embraced international trade. We pioneered the transistor, created silicon valley, and created an environment where enterprising foreign nationals could come with their ambitions and build companies that ultimately would employ Americans, enrich stock holders, and create jobs. But ... now Trump and his administration is slowly closing the US off from immigration of persons and businesses and ideas. How many of the worlds future Fortune 100 companies are in the minds of PHd students or researchers that given this new visa situation will think twice about incorporating in the USA? Just look at the businesses created in the first and second tech booms and ask how many founders were foreigners.
Regarding the foreign reserve currency and Chinese military might. I guess I am more bullish on that not changing anytime soon. The US spends far too much in propping up the military industrial complex that it would take generations of incompetent presidents to ruin that lead. That being said it's very disconerting for Trump to be so cozy with our enemies, to openly praise North Korea (could be a policy of appeasement or just keeping one's enemies closer than his freinds... i dunno) and to give exuberant praise to Putin, etc., and to disregard intel from his own agencies, to badmouth the FBI and the CIA, to bilk the government into paying himself by staying at his own properties, golfing practically his whole presidency, praising white supremacists, ... all of this is forgiven because he's "hard on China". HAH!
To think that President Xi isn't 10 moves ahead is to be truly ignorant.
Does that win anyone over?
>Does that win anyone over?
How can you blame Trump for that when the unemployment rate was the lowest in over a decade before 2020, and the job losses / fall in unemployment was due to lockdowns he didn't support? Overall the unemployment rate is much better in Red states, which have weaker or no lockdowns: https://www.aier.org/article/unemployment-far-worse-in-lockd...
This data is from May 9th. Do you think anything has changed in Teas, Arizona, and Florida since then?
Unemployment being higher in locked down states makes sense. But the flipside of that statistic is that daily deaths in red states are reaching new peaks now while they've flatlined to lows in blue states.
Then why haven't the Blue states that have been locked down for months gotten back to normalcy? Like California and New York? Why hasn't Melbourne gotten back to normalcy? Almost nowhere that prevented a first wave by shutting down has managed to avoid a second wave.
[1] https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/unemployment-rate-in-eu-ris...
Places like Australia have gone back to normalcy(+masks) now. Japan can pack a train full of people(+masks).
Yeah, because everyone flocks into NY and CA nowadays, and it's not the other way around.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article...
https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-tiktok-ban-us-c...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/18/pressure-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Tsai_call
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/183...
https://www.androidauthority.com/huawei-google-android-ban-9...
For the concentration camps: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/world/asia/trump-china-sa...
At the end of the day it boils down to how much damage is Trump and other conservatives able to inflict compared to the CCP. I’m pro immigration, privacy, eu, choice, police-reforms, etc. my views are very much aligned with what you see in Scandinavia.. but at the end of the day, I see CCP as the greatest threat that the world is facing, and I feel voting against all my beliefs to help stop them is a necessary sacrifice.
(Caveat: I think US entering WWII was justified so I don't blame FDR, and also given that Bush & Obama attacked so many countries, it's hard to find another country to invade, so arguably Trump had an easier job... but still. Good job!)
Biden has tons of baggage. If he had an (R) next to his name and nothing else in life different he’d be getting creamed for all his previous policies, stances and quotes. In addition, mentally he’s not lasting four years of intense presidential demands.
In 2016 Clinton was Bush heavy (or comparatively Bush would be Clinton lite)
Maybe what's happening now is that early on in primaries enthusiastic voters vote for fresh kids, then as things progress more seasoned voters vote for more established candidates but by then most good established candidates have dropped off and we’re left with the second bests and hangers on.
Kind of a paradox of choice in the political arena.
How screwed do you think the entire country will be if the Chinese continue their naval expansion unchecked[1][2], defeat us in a conflict, and de-throne the USD as the primary unit of exchange for energy resources?[3] What do you think happens to the US economy if we can't print the world's reserve currency like Monopoly money anymore?[4] Those are all far bigger, long-term strategic problems than the executive overreach we might experience with a President who's a rude narcissistic strongman....and almost no-one else who has campaigned for President or VP has even paid The CCP Problem lip-service (Biden started barking as if he was anti-China only in mimicry of Trump, arguably).
[1]https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/chinas-blue-water-...
[2]https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/august/decip...
[3]https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/China-Russia-and-EU-edge-awa...
[4]https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petro...
I don't boycott Apple just because the country they are based in (according to the note in the box) has committed some crimes over the years.
And in the US people at least ostensibly have the right to choose their own government, AND there's a culture for large corporations to lobby government directly.
You'll find the same people who want to boycott Chinese products are ironically also quite good at keeping us aware that people in China can't really speak their own minds.
Also, at what level should the boycott happen? Should I just boycott Californian luxury electronics manufacturers? All Californian firms? All US? The world is a tangled web, why is the political map the one whose lines you use?
We're not talking about bombing them. We're talking about economic boycott and economic sanctions.
What else do you have in mind? How do we act against countries that commit crimes against humanity? Do we just stand and watch because they have millions of good citizens?
I guess it may have effect if you tell your favorite seller on Aliexpress, that sorry, I will not be buying anymore stuff from you, because XYZ. But just stopping, means nothing. Sends no discernible signal to the other side, and just increases economic suffering, which while it can lead to revolutions, only probably when it hits some extreme level. Just look at Syria, massive sanctions, people can barely eat, currency is spiraling to hyperinflation, and they still have not toppled the corrupt asshole in charge. And I doubt having to spend half a day just figuring out how to get something to eat helps in any way. In fact corrupt asshole in charge is using the sanctions, to rally his supporters.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/syria-s-assad-say...
And that's the ideal case of a country west doesn't really need anything from and can boycott/sanction at will.
And besides that, we're in an economic against them. Actually, they are in an economic war against us. We can't do business in their country freely but they can make their own companies here or buy the ones we already have with the money they are making from manufacturing our stuff. Nope.
Clearly government is involved. When did a government of somewhere last express their displeasure at China's government for this? If they've done it, they must have buried the news. If you don't think a public rebuke will help anything, what do you propose?
If you don't think that it will help, don't do the wrong thing for the right reason. That will only clear your own conscience.
Let's not do things that harm the wrong people. Is not buying a toy from China really going to help anything? You'll put some toy guy out of business, but is he gonna lobby government to stop the prison camps?
Because that billion people there is the only one who can change the government.
You're asking people who understand very well that standing up for a new government is going to be extremely costly.
In the meantime, you want to deprive them of work.
Ever wonder how those two things are connected?
US calls itself a "Democracy", so you're supposed to be more empowered to make a change than an average Chinese citizen.
There are only 3 countries with the potential to become superpowers in the modern age -- USA, Russia, and China. Hegemony by one of the three is inevitable.
It is up to YOU to provide proof that Russia or China would be better choices.
President Roosevelt said "speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." The US foreign policy has gone very far with that idea. A large military then economic pressure is what led to the collapse of the USSR. The same tactic has kept North Korea, Iran, and other despotic countries at bay for decades.
Today, Trump and Biden both have endorsed a similar approach to China. Build up the military presence around China and pile on economic pressure until they collapse (trying to walk the fine line to avoid war).
Unlike the US, China and Russia/USSR have killed tens to hundreds of millions of their own people. Do you really think there would be fewer deaths if China or Russia were the dominant power? If they're willing to kill their own so casually, they're going to be even more barbaric with foreigners.
I'd ask again, do you have any proof that the alternatives are better?
Or China is more powerful than you - or he - thought.
They are making choice between getting new "millions" vs "losing all previous contracts" and going back to zero or negative.
I agree 100% with what you say. But if you are from the USA, you may better not say it.
It is just impossible for a person from the USA not to sound ridiculously hypocritical when criticizing China. You are the greatest war-mongering country in the last few generations! If you are from the U.S.A., it is more realistic and effective to work on stopping your country killing people abroad.
Not that anything that you say or suggest about China is wrong. But this century will not be remembered only by the Chinese genocide of the Uighurs, but also by the north-american aggressive and murderous imperialism.
I don't know about you, but even if the government does not have a legitimate democratic mandate, it still has a larger say than a foreign country. Especially if you consider that the USA isn't exactly a shining example of a functioning democracy.
2. It makes 0 difference morally whether you’re targeting domestic or foreign civilians
3. America starves civilian populations outside formal states of war. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. This is the visible tip of the iceberg
Where is the equivalent outcry? Why is the country we’re discussing here always China?
That’s the selective outrage.
Whenever BuzzFeed or any news company talks about ICE detention or US prisons, they make it very obvious when they talk about current people being detained and the total population that had been detained.
Second, if the USA killed a million muslims, does that make it right that China does it as well? I don't think it does.
Second, discrimination or racism is never right, but the arguments related to Xinjiang prisons are being used to drum up popular support for a [cold] war against China. We have a duty to speak out against our leaders, so that we can prevent tragic mistakes being made.
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II:
“genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
“Mass incarceration” with children forcibly transferred to boarding schools run by people outside of the group and “brainwashing”, together, seem to qualify for (b), (c), (d), (e), even if (a) is missing.
Americans might have conveniently forgot what was happening in the world between the years 2001-2011, but the world hasn't.
The 1 million estimate seems to be a major outlier. Yes 100 thousand is still very terrible, but that's probably a more accurate number.
We in Europe should be more vocal about what US and China think they can do to the rest of the world without consequences. China is an awful country, we just have to look at what they did in Tibet, for the last 40 years... there is nothing new.
European country are currently doing nothing and this is despicable, my country being the worst, we just discovered that Chinese police officer are invited here to identify potential Chinese to send back to China... the moral standpoint is very weak, and only facts matter.
Switzerland, for those wondering: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-explore-renewal-...
What country is this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
This makes it faster for you to refute their point, especially in front of other people who might be convinced by this argument at first.
Consider the impact of all the regime change operations undertaken under the patronage of the United States in countries like Iraq, Lybia, Syria and Yemen, as well as devastating effects of economic sanctions on Iran, Syria and other nations.
Still annoying comparison and whataboutism.
Prison labor camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor The worse version of the previos ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai
As for Germans knowing, they were subject to Nazi censorship. Some of them had their suspicions for sure. I saw a quote once from a woman who said of course they knew about the camps. When asked how she knew, her reply was: because that's exactly the sort of thing Hitler would have done. So she didn't really know, just suspected based on past behaviour, which is different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vrba
So definitely were known before liberation. As for the date, could be that I was wrong and it was 1943, and not 1941 (However, as soon as 1941-2 some 1.5 million Russian jews were shot to death, was there zero evidence of that?)
It's also possible some governments had evidence but refused to believe such monstrosity could take place, or were just helpless / reluctant to do anything. Hell even these days some people refuse to accept what happened there.
Obviously the Germans didn't know who knew what and tried to conceal. And obviously American / Russian soldiers who liberated the camps were surprised. Does that mean Churchill / Roosevelt were surprised? Also - was it really such a shocker? Jews were starving to death for years in Ghettoes prior to extermination - surely the local population had an idea the jews fate wasn't great.
The page does say that there were previous reports, but one was only in Polish. The other apparently did end up with the British and American governments, but that's a long way from most governments knowing. And even when the allies started discovering camps it was censored for a while, supposedly to avoid upsetting people with missing relatives. So I guess the information hardly travelled far, and not outside US/UK war offices.
The Independent article seems to be conflating different things. Jews started fleeing the Nazis even before they fully assumed power. The comments about the Empire being full are presumably related to that. Wanting to indict Hitler for war crimes hardly required knowledge of concentration camps, so I'm not sure it provides so much evidence.
I guess there's surprise, and then there's formally knowing. I referenced a German woman who said she "knew" but what she meant was she wasn't surprised when she learned. I guess that was how a lot of people reacted.
Interesting links though, thanks. I learned some new things about WW2 today.
> she was detained a third time and spent three months in a cramped prison cell with 60 other women
> She said nine women from her cell died during her three months there.
Of course that's only one sample. But if that is near the true death rate being applied to 1 million people (and soon more) then it's clear that this is genocide.
Yet, companies continue doing business and in some cases abetting the policy.
Some of these companies will be the IBMs and Fords as well as the Wolksvagens and Thiessens but it’s pernicious and people don’t notice. But in retrospect years hence it will be stark.
If WW3 starts and Chinese internment camps start popping up you'll find out that what people say in peacetime and what they actually think are two very different things.
Fact of the matter is that China is in an extremely powerful position over the world due to its position in the manufacturing chain. The world would fall apart overnight if China stopped manufacturing things - parts of it did already when Covid-19 caused lockdowns. There isn't the manufacturing ability elsewhere to scale up to what China provides.
The only way we're getting there is actual organisation and uprising to overthrow the capitalism which requires that we make those sacrifices, and frankly... it's not going to happen any time soon. People broadly agreed to the National Guard being sent in to handle some people who were mostly demanding that the police stop killing them, can you imagine what would happen if those people were actually calling to overthrow the state?