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Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by PinguTS on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:34PM (#23969661)
A friend of mine, a military helicopter pilot told me years ago, that Airbus can basicaly fly by itself, except for taxiing. It was about 15 years ago.

But then the airline prohibited to use the automated systems during take-off and landing, because the pilots don't get practise. But pilots need those practise if they should take over in emergency situations.

The same is true for automated driving. I always say, we will see automated railways and automated airplanes before we see automated cars.

PS: Because of some comments, Nuremberg had the first railways system to allow mixed traffic of automated and manual railways. Yeah, I know some of the guys doing the saftey certifcations for this.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by traceroute66 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:14AM (#23973157)
@PinguTS, well your friend is either mistaken, or you misheard him or a combination of both.

First, auto-takeoff is not possible. Its not possible due to technical constraints (e.g. concerns regarding LOC capture on the ground). It is also not possible due to safety constraints (e.g. the requirement to be able to deal with an aborted takeoff in a timely manner).

Second, automated landing IS used, but it is only used in limited situations. Why ?

- Because not all runways are equipped for CAT III autoland (i.e. the aircraft is not capable of landing itself without a shit-ton of calibrated equipment on the ground being there first, also good luck finding a CATIII autoland somewhere mountainous or with an otherwise tricky approach).

- Because not all aircraft are equipped for CATIII autoland (see above, more kit, more money).

- Because the autoland system itself has DH (Decision Height) and RVR (Runway Visual Range) requirements. The exception to this is CAT IIIC autoland, but AFAIK the vast majority of CATIII certified runways are only to CAT IIIB because that's expensive enough to certify, even for major airports.

- Because of general weather requirements. For example, I don't know about you, but I'd rather NEVER see an aircraft attempting autoland in a Captain's crosswind (i.e. crosswind so strong that the airline prohibits the First Officer from flying it).

- Becuase autoland operations at airports involve ATC increasing traffic separation. Increase separation leads to what ? Yes, that's right... decreased flow rate and increased possibility of delays and cancellations.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by stunt on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:32AM (#23973277)
> Because not all runways are equipped for CAT III autoland (i.e. the aircraft is not capable of landing itself without a shit-ton of calibrated equipment on the ground being there first, also good luck finding a CATIII autoland somewhere mountainous or with an otherwise tricky approach).

I think if you get must of the major airports covered that's still good enough. But, if I understood this article correctly, what Airbus is trying now is to make it happen without those ground requirements. And I'm sure they do not expect to cover every airport and runway to begin with.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by amlager on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:15AM (#23973874)
I don't think the major airports would be good enough. What about emergencies where an aircraft has to divert? Can the automated plane land itself without engines, side slip to lose altitude faster and land safely on a non-ILS airport like the Gimli glider?

Will it do the same on a grass strip, which some pilot did without engines in the Houston area?

Can it do a perfect belly landing like a Polish pilot did some years ago?

Can it land in the Hudson?

All of those pilots had massive experience beyond button pushing auto-piloted aircraft.

I think (hope) this is just a typical marketing program which is not actually going to happen.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by fvdessen on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:12AM (#23974159)
Maybe the automated plane cannot do all those things, but on the other hand it will not dive itself into a mountain because it is feeling very sad.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by anvert on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:13AM (#23974489)
It will happily do that if the pitot tubes are clogged or other sensory input is wrong. Or if there is an MCAS situation.

Moreover, it is easy to find at least 30 successful landings under the above conditions, while the situation you are referring to has about 4 cases, 2 of them contested.

Also, locking the cockpit doors on airliners is stupid in my opinion.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by stunt on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:37AM (#23975608)
Many crashes are also due to pilot mistakes. Or due to some past damages done to the plane by previous pilots.

Aviation industry follows safety in redundancy principles. So on top of all the redundancy they are going to add in a system like this, I assume pilot will be part of the redundancy too.

Perhaps they can remove co-pilot soon. But, it will take a few years to go without any pilot. Even then perhaps they start with cargo airlines. I assume they can use a ground station as an emergency pilot like how military drones work.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by nelox on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:58AM (#23974788)
Do you mean the “Airbus demonstrates first fully automatic vision-based take-off” type of not possible?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/01/ai...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by traceroute66 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:44AM (#23975098)
My predominant aim was countering the wholly incorrect "automatic take-off was possible 15 years ago but the airlines don't use it" statement put forward by the OP.

However, since you ask, I would say two things : (a) The very Press Release you link to does take care to manage expectations (e.g. "Airbus’ mission is not to move ahead with autonomy as a target in itself").

(b) Your automatic take-off in 100% of situations is never going to happen. Sure, on a perfect dry day with nil-winds you can conjure up a great sounding Press Release. But throw in some "real world" and you can forget it. Cross winds, monsoon flooded runways, engine failures, bird strikes, failures of electronic systems (yes, it happens, even with triplicate redundancy) ... the highly trained humans at the front are not going anywhere, nor is their training regime going to be cut back.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by bpizzi on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:50AM (#23975746)
Right now unsupervised learning techniques aren't able to teach a meaningful world model to a neural network.

But this won't last (hopefully), thanks to our brilliant co-humans doing cutting-edge research on that subject. And when a neural network is able to differentiate and anticipate possibles actions of winds, engines, birds and onboard electronics, then you have an autonomous take-off on par with humans pilots, enhanced with an instant feedback loop with built-in checklists and avionics.

It's a big stretch of course. But never say never, they say.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by raverbashing on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:28AM (#23973944)
RNAV is making CAT ILS obsolete and might do autoland "soon" https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1395929 (more detailed discussions)
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by PinguTS on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:38AM (#23973303)
That's an insight. You use automated stuff only, when the automated stuff is available? Wow. Haven't thought about that.

Of course we are talking only about situations when its is available and some airline then still insists that you don't use it.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by vntok on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:25AM (#23973926)
> That's an insight. You use automated stuff only, when the automated stuff is available? Wow. Haven't thought about that.

You didn't understand what he said. What you wrote is not an insight. The actual insight is, in air travel, you use automated stuff only when the automated stuff is available everywhere around you. Because your plane might have to divert due to an emergency and land at another airport/field that doesn't have any automation in place.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by nnain on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @06:08AM (#23985094)
> First, auto-takeoff is not possible

So was auto-driving; engineering visionaries don't stop at what is currently possible.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ekianjo on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:44PM (#23969762)
There are already automated trains in Paris (one metro line), and I can think of several places in Japan with automated train lines as well (not the main ones). It's already proven technology.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by amelius on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:00PM (#23971569)
> It's already proven technology.

Automated trains are just like elevators, except they move horizontally.

There used to be an operator on every elevator, but they have been replaced by electronics since a very long time ago.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by crocal on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:00AM (#23973456)
> Automated trains are just like elevators

Ahem. No.

There is no collision hazard in elevators (essentially each elevator is on its own dedicated track). In railway, collision hazards are everywhere because you can change track and there are multiple trains on the same track, possibly (yikes) in head to head movements.

If you want to see the specs of a real Automatic Train Protection, the European one is public [1]. And that is only the protection part. There is no automatic pilot in there.

[1] https://www.era.europa.eu/content/set-specifications-3-etcs-...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Someone on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:14AM (#23974496)
Nitpick: there are collision hazards in some modern elevators. See for example https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a20847/the-futur... (company pages are, IMO less clear: https://twin.thyssenkrupp-elevator.com/ or even https://www.thyssenkrupp-elevator.com/en/products-and-servic...)
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lostlogin on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:06PM (#23971603)
But go further, faster and carry way more people while having an incredibly varied operating environment, unlike an elevator/lift.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ApolloFortyNine on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:48PM (#23971826)
The whole basis of signaling kind of makes it all moot. If the signal is red, the train stops. If the signal is green, you go through. Their may be yellow signals as well, generally meaning that there is train x signals ahead, proceed at caution (generally reduced speed).

A very large number of accidents are due to the operator failing to follow these very basic signals.

>incredibly varied operating environment

How many variables do you see here?

The absolute safest scenario is likely automated trains with a driver with a red button to stop the train, in case of emergency. After years go by without even having to use the button, even those operators could be removed. We're living in a world where automated driving is starting to overtake automated trains, something that literally exists on rail, and switching is controlled electronically on almost every passenger rail in the western world.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2020/07/07/red...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hordorf_train_collision

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hordorf_train_collision

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_passed_at_danger#Accide...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by maeln on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:15AM (#23973539)
> How many variables do you see here?

Unless we are talking metro, where I live it is not that uncommon to have some animal wonder on the tracks, people trying to commit suicide on the track, people throwing things at the train from bridges, ...

Hell, I there was even an hot air balloon that crashed on the train track a few years back in my city, blocking trains for the whole day.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:17AM (#23976020)
Those are really all one variable, object on tracks.

And I got some bad news if you think 140 car freight trains stop for a deer on the tracks.

>people throwing things at the train from bridges,

I'm not too sure what you think an operator does today, besides maybe calling their dispatch/911.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:53AM (#23974367)
> automated trains with a driver with a red button to stop the train

This is an ergonomics nightmare scenario. The operator needs to pay attention to keep situational awareness all the time while just observing the train doing its thing. Then, all of a sudden, the train starts doing something that it shouldn't be doing (due to a failed signal, another train doing something stupid, an obstruction, a malfunction...) and they need to quickly react and do a safe abort (slamming the brakes may actually be a bad idea sometimes)

This is an issue in aircraft with heavy automation - everything seems normal until it isn't and then the pilots need to quickly figure out exactly what happened, how they got where they are and how to get out.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:19AM (#23976050)
>This is an issue in aircraft with heavy automation - everything seems normal until it isn't and then the pilots need to quickly figure out exactly what happened, how they got where they are and how to get out.

This isn't flying though, and you can stop a train by slamming the breaks, and this is perfectly fine in 99% of scenarios (and which is exactly why each train car has an emergency break cord/button).

I can't really imagine a situation where a possible derailment is better than stopping the train. If your on a narrow bridge, surely stopping is better than the possibility of being unable to stop when the bridge is out.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:38PM (#23971767)
>> Automated trains are just like elevators, except they move horizontally.

Really? I haven't heard of any elevators killing dozens of people lately. I haven't seen many elevators crash, burst into flames and effectively remove entire city blocks from the map. I haven't heard of people studying elevator operators for PTSD.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Lac_mega...

"Traumatic exposure and posttraumatic symptoms for train drivers involved in railway incidents"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462444/

>>Because of involuntary exposure to PUT [Person Under Train] incidents, the likelihood of train drivers to witness the violent death of a person is much higher than that of the general population, and that puts the train driver at risk of psychological trauma.

>>Of the 193 train drivers, 152 (78.75%) reported at least one PUT incident. Respondents reported as much as 14 PUT incidents/person, with a mean of 4 (SD = 2.83) incidents/train driver.

In all honesty, a train driver is more likely to see someone die violently in front of them in a given year than the average soldier.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by dwd on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:42PM (#23972061)
All the more reason to take train drivers out of the picture.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by kiba on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:52PM (#23972102)
Doesn't solve the problem of people using trains to commit suicide, which isn't certainly going to be solved by any amount of automation.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by clusterfish on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:05AM (#23972185)
So? Nobody said that it would, just that drivers won't suffer the associated ptsd.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by dwd on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:45AM (#23973714)
Need some of the mitigations they use in Japan like calming blue lighting at the platform ends, full length barriers and gates.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by numpad0 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:56PM (#23971864)
“Trains” and “automated trains” practically are two distinct concepts like “cars” and “golf cars”
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tialaramex on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:49AM (#23972382)
An eggcorn maybe?

The vehicle you're probably thinking of is a golf cart.

A Golf Car is a popular model of motor vehicle from Vauxhall.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by walrus01 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:20PM (#23971684)
Vancouver BC has had a fully automated train system since 1986. When it started they were using VAX as part of the control system.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by xattt on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:48PM (#23971825)
Toronto had the demonstrator line that saw and continues to see revenue service despite its ancient age. Toronto’s cars were built with a full cab, partly because of pressure from the union, to allow an operator to push the button to close the doors. (1)

The system no longer runs in ATO (automatic train operation) because of ongoing issues around maintaining contact with the mainframe when it snowed.

(1) https://transittoronto.ca/subway/5107.shtml

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by CaptainZapp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:08AM (#23972474)
2 actually.

Line 14 was conceived as driver less. In 2012 line 1[1] was converted to fully automated. Others, to the best of my knowledge, are planned.

[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_1_du_m%C3%A9tro_de_Paris (In French)

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by karambahh on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:49AM (#23973388)
There are ongoing works on Line 4 this summer to automate it as well
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by mattlondon on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:55PM (#23969872)
In London several of the tube lines are automated. There is a driver but all they do is press a button to close the doors at stations and make announcements to passengers "for safety purposes" (i.e. unions)
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by matthewmacleod on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:31PM (#23970186)
This is a bit of a misrepresentation. Drivers still have actual safety and operational roles – they can drive the train manually in cases of equipment failure, deal with passenger emergencies, that kind of thing. Even the DLR, which has used automation since opening, has a staff member on each train who can take over driving if required.

That's not to say that entirely driverless services can't be done. There are a bunch of metro services globally that are grade-4 fully-autonomous and totally unattended, and some of them have been in operation for over 30 years. But like all large-scale systems, there are lots of complicating factors, system-specific conditions, and various tradeoffs to be made – a lazy Daily Mail "damn unions" argument isn't really fair.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by mattlondon on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:45PM (#23970309)
Yep this is why they want "train captains" (kinda like the DLR has) rather than requiring a fully-trained driver in a cab at the front.

IIRC there is something like a 6 year waiting list to become a tube driver because they do a 36 hour week for £55k a year (up to £100+k for some) with over 40 days paid holiday, and can retire on a full pension at 50 years old (1)

It seems like a ludicrously cushy job and I 100% put it down to those "damn unions" essentially blackmailing TFL by always threatening to strike at the busiest times. I don't blame them,but I don't think that the "damn unions" argument is unjustified when it comes to Tube drivers and there near-constant threats to go on strike for the most rediculous things that any reasonable person would agree were legitimate reasons (such as when a driver was sacked for repeatedly failing drink-driving tests (2), or another for a driver who repeatedly drove through red signals (3)). These are potential disaster near-misses, yet the tube driver's unions use them as more leverage to threaten a strike and squeak out a bit more pay and a bit more holiday. And when they are not doing that, they're frankly taking the piss and threatening to strike over not being able to make a cup of tea (4)

1 - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tube-driver-salary-holida...

2 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transp...

3 - https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/13/tube-workers-striking-protest...

4 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1337609/Unions-threa...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnotherGoodName on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:31PM (#23971732)
>a 36 hour week for £55k (up to £100+k for some) a year

An ok-ish middle class salary. Not outrageous in its own right and i suspect if you compared it to the lifestyle of train drivers 50 years ago it might allow them to live the same sort of lifestyle?

It's no secret that our expectations and the job market have changed dramatically but it is telling that jobs with hard fought inflation adjusted wages have wait lists for those jobs. We're like a frog slowly being boiled and we need posts like the above that cause us to think "Hang on didn't train drivers of yesteryear support a wife and three kids? Could you do that on £55k?".

As tech workers we all likely earn so much that we could live the middle class lifestyle of yesteryear (paying off the mortgage before retirement, supporting a partner and kids, taking regular family vacations, etc.). I mean we like to think we're all super rich but really we're only where we should be. Perhaps we shouldn't be directing hate downwards here? The wealth gap above us has increased, whilst the wealth controlled by the bottom 50% is lower than ever.

The only way the disparity here can be corrected is to accept those below us in salary will fight for more. It's pretty understandable really.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by MagnumOpus on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @06:05AM (#24048398)
> An ok-ish middle class salary

Twice to four times the median salary in the UK (and three to six times the salary of a bus driver who is usually far more skilled), for a low-skilled job that requires neither education nor physical exertion. There is a reason why there are massive waiting lists.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by growlist on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:09AM (#23973829)
It says a lot that you think all tech workers likely earn more than £55k.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by formerly_proven on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:02AM (#23976524)
Lots of bubbles to go around. Average entry level software developer job in Germany pays 40-45k€ (35-40k£). 60-70k would already be well-paid senior positions. No developer or dev manager earns six figures. These numbers also roughly apply to most engineering disciplines.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by joosters on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:02PM (#23970420)
The wages and costs of train drivers are pretty insignificant in the costs of running the London Underground, so tiny a percentage of the running costs, yet people focus on them because they earn a relatively good wage (how dare they have a pension that might keep them fed in their retirement! Ban those greedy unions! etc etc ...) Shame on all you haters.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lostlogin on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:14PM (#23971653)
I just skimmed a few search results and the wage quoted here is within the upper end of a London average - depending on how you define it. There are obviously a lot of fudge factors and things that skew results due to various factors. Having seen and read of things that tube staff have to put up with, they seem to me to earn their wage. Below is a link to the story about the railway worker who died from Covid after being spat in by someone claiming to have Covid.

Note that staff appear to have been sent out unwillingly and were not allowed to wear masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/12/uk-rail-work...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by dreen on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:06AM (#23972770)
I thought that on all Underground lines the driver has to operate a deadmans switch at all times - if released the train stops. Is that not true?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by mattlondon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:42AM (#23974307)
Used to be, and probably is still on some of the smaller lines like Bakerloo or Circle. But on the main lines like Victoria and Northern they're all automated now. Often you see the train coming in to the platform and the driver is just sitting there reading their phone/playing candy crush etc.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Skye on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:20PM (#23970091)
For some lines that go above ground (Northern, Jubilee, Central), the driver sometimes had to put it into manual mode to compensate for the worse breaking when it's raining outside.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by shorts_theory on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:50PM (#23971506)
I don't ever recall seeing a train driver in my trips on Singapore's MRT either now that I think of it. Is this relatively new technology? Some of the older trains on the North East and Downtown MRT lines are at least a decade old, if not older. It would seem like that such tech should be ubiquitous in most cities with a good public transit system.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by kippel on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:05AM (#23976551)
There are many automated train systems around at different levels, more than we think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_system...
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Avicebron on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:50PM (#23969814)
I would be very happy to see automated trains, I often see an immediate jump to tackling the hardest cases in engineering before thinking about simple and efficient solutions. Almost everything about the Japanese rail system is something I want to see in the US
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lovemenot on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:59PM (#23970780)
Railway operation in Japan is indeed excellent and worth emulating.

However, busier services are very much dependent on human operators. Both on-board (2) and platform-side (half a dozen).

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jillesvangurp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:22AM (#23974949)
I've been on the metro in Toulouse as well, which is fully automated. Kind of cool because you can sit in the front where normally the cockpit would be. Toulouse is of course a major Airbus city.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Kipters on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:40PM (#23971044)
Same in Milan. The M5 line is completely autonomous (you can also sit in front and look at the tunnel through a large window). The next line, the M4 (no, not a typo) will be autonomous too.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Zach_the_Lizard on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:40PM (#23969714)
> we will see automated railways

The future is now: there are automated rail lines in a numbers of cities around the world. Some are relatively old, too.

The JFK AirTrain is one such example.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by PinguTS on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:45PM (#23969775)
Most of the automated railways operate on closed tracks. Many of those even on closed platforms. Here in Germany, my hometown Nuremberg, it runs one of the first underground railways with open platforms and combined with man operated railways. It needs a lot of safety electronics and I know some guys who were responsible for certification after install. (Yeah, I am somehow from the business.)

Don't try to compare closed tracks to open tracks. A closed track is more like an elevator.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by cogman10 on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:57PM (#23969881)
What are the main difficulties around an open system vs a closed one? To my novice eye they look like they should be fairly comparable.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:34PM (#23970212)
A semi truck breaks down in a position fouling the tracks. A drunk passes out on the tracks. A freight car isn't securely tied down on a siding and rolls out onto the tracks. Et cetera.

For an open system, you have to be able to respond to arbitrary visual input. For a closed system, there shouldn't be random stuff on the right of way.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tialaramex on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:19AM (#23972524)
The drunk is dead. There's no great risk to the safety of the train from striking a human or small animal (larger creatures like bears and deer can be a problem). There are a number of very dangerous places to pass out drunk, and it feels like that's not really a problem for railways to solve.

At-grade ("Level") crossings should be closed (and thus grade separated). Where that's impractical there are numerous options for ensuring the crossing is not open to railway traffic until it is clear:

In some areas it can be practical to employ a person whose duties include verifying that this crossing is clear and then authorising its use. Because CCTV is cheap now we can fit cameras and lighting and have them do this remotely for a large portion of the network.

Or we can use radar to protect crossings. The barriers drop, and then radar is activated (the small hazard introduced by using radar is mitigated because the crossing is closed, nobody should be in the area being illuminated by the radar anyway), if somehow there is a large object on the crossing even though the barriers are down, this means something went wrong. The outward flow barriers re-open to potentially allow a trapped driver or animal to leave and the system tries again, if this doesn't help the crossing is considered failed and humans go to investigate, they will find your broken down semi-truck.

The freight car should preferably be harmlessly derailed by trap points. If this is impossible (and the layout cannot be rectified) the presence of the freight car should trip sensors, either axle counters or track circuits, and close the section to traffic. Again humans will likely have to come investigate how that occurred when it cannot be explained and won't go away.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:18PM (#23977324)
I would be very surprised if hitting even a bear could cause a problem for a train. Light rail, maybe. Heavy rail, or a freight train? I doubt it.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by flukus on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:10PM (#23970482)
And that we don't have AI that can handle these relatively easy scenarios is soft proof that we are nowhere near the hard scenarios of fully antonymous driving.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by taneq on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:54PM (#23970742)
For most train situations, isn’t it impossible to stop once you’re in visual range anyway?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:38PM (#23971033)
Depends on where you are. Some places are flat enough that you can see several miles. A freight train can stop in two miles, more or less. You're not going to see the drunk on the track in that range, but you might see the semi or the freight car.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by joshribakoff on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:03PM (#23971588)
Think outside the box, the camera could be mounted at the intersection instead of on the train. I'd presume whoever is certifying this stuff also ensures if the gate isn't verified to block traffic, the train stops before the intersection
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tialaramex on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:41AM (#23972648)
In Britain these are named MCB-CCTV ("Manually controlled barriers, CCTV monitoring").

At the crossing are boards indicating that this is a railway crossing, two sets of lights for each direction of traffic (two amber, one red in each set) and barriers, typically long motorised boom arms from which a flimsier but more visible structure hangs, plus a tall post with CCTV cameras mounted on it. The CCTV feed goes with all the other signal data to either a "signal box" not so far away, or a larger centre where many signallers work together. A signaller who wishes to move a train through the crossing views the CCTV feed, and initiates a sequence in which the lights show alternating amber ("caution, stop if possible"), then red ("stop"), the barriers close road lanes entering the crossing, then barriers close the road lanes which exit the crossing. The signaller verifies everything is as intended (e.g. no vehicle stranded on the crossing, no idiot pedestrians clambering over the barrier and standing on the railway) and then authorises trains to pass. Once as many trains as necessary have passed, the signaller closes the crossing to trains, and tells the crossing to re-open to road traffic, it raises the barriers and then switches off the red "stop" lights and road users can now use it as normal.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by zymhan on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:16AM (#23972227)
Passenger trains are far lighter than cargo trains.

I'd take Amtrak to my hometown, and the engine would blow past the platform at 20+mph and still stop the passenger cars right on the platform. Riding on the train and it seemed like they'd miss it.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by formerly_proven on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:15AM (#23976650)
Afaik the breaking capability of cargo trains is lower because they use simpler brakes and only use the airline for breaking, which limits the speed at which you can apply the brakes on a long train without risking breakage of the links. Passenger trains use disk brakes and through electronic control can apply the brakes evenly across the entire length of the train, so the brakes can be applied much more quickly.

I think the weight of a car itself wouldn't change the theoretically possible stopping distance, since the momentum is proportional to the mass, but so is the friction between wheel and track, so mass cancels out.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by numpad0 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:04PM (#23971597)
Crashing at 20mph is better than at 80mph
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jacobr1 on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:28PM (#23970164)
Runs on my laptop vs runs in production
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by numpad0 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:00PM (#23971573)
Perhaps “open” and “closed” are synonymous to “conventional” and “purpose-built” in the industry?

Purpose-built automated lines often use smaller cars with more powerful motors sometimes concrete tracks. I suppose those help computers in flattening acceleration/deceleration curves and eliminating needs to compensate for weather or passenger counts.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ProZsolt on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:54PM (#23969857)
We have the London DLR
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tialaramex on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:58AM (#23972412)
The Docklands Light Railway is both grade-separated (which I guess is what your parent was getting at with "closed"? hard to tell) and only GoA (Grade of Automation) 3.

There are GoA 4 systems in use in the world. The difference is that every DLR train has a trained operator onboard whereas in a GoA 4 system the nearest employees are in some distant operations centre, watching only via a CCTV connection. GoA 4 trains are entirely autonomous, if one were one day to somehow break down so badly as to be inoperable a separate team would need to go rescue it and meanwhile other trains would simply stop at a station and allow their passengers to disembark.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ProZsolt on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:10AM (#23987492)
He compare "closed" to elevators, so I thought that "open" meant no junctions, but you can be also right.

Usually there is no operator onboard. But is still GoA 3 because emergency situations are handled by operators from a control room.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tialaramex on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:37PM (#23989480)
There is always a trained operator on the DLR.

Look around, you will see there is a person wearing a uniform who is perhaps helping tourists figure out where they need to change trains, or assisting a woman struggling with shopping and a push chair. These are TfL employees trained to drive the train, even though it's autonomous.

Before the train leaves, even under normal autonomous operation, this person in the uniform activates a "close doors" control and this is the only reason a DLR train will close its doors. When the doors are closed and the way ahead is clear the train will drive itself to the next station, and open the doors, the cycle repeats.

The person wearing the uniform is trained to safely operate a train. Any time they're on first shift they actually sit at the front (usually occupied by excited children) and unlock the onboard controls to literally drive the train for route verification purposes. Autonomous trains aren't looking, and tools or equipment may be left on the track by work gangs (despite a "count it out, count it in" procedure) so the first trip of the day is always done manually.

You can't drive a DLR train from the control room.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:05PM (#23969966)
But we haven't seen automated freight trains. A light rail train hauling commuters along a dedicated bespoke elevated rail line (Vancouver's skytrain, Disney World etc) is one thing, a hundred cars full of iron ore descending a hill behind a preschool is another.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by joosters on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:09PM (#23970003)
The preschool is hiding behind the hill on the railway line? I wish they'd stop building these schools on the train tracks, it's so irresponsible.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:37PM (#23970234)
I believe that Australia has an automated freight line.

The original intent of the Black Mesa & Lake Powell (hauling coal to a power plant) was for it to be fully automated, but I don't know if it ever ran without a human in the cab.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:03PM (#23970807)
>> has an automated freight line.

I didn't know about that, but is it a "freight line" or a "freight train"? If it is the former, a dedicated line used only by the automated train, then it isn't all that removed from disneyworld: a single-use train on a dedicated line. And Australia is notoriously flat.

I'm from the west coast, where driving a heavy train through the mountains is serious business, but disasters can happen anywhere. The latest epic disaster in Canada was caused by a train that was unmanned at the time. It was parked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaste...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:34PM (#23971006)
Yes, I've been to Tehachapi, Cajon, and Donner Passes. And Cima Hill, and Ash Hill, and Goffs. I know what mountain railroading out west can be.

Maybe the gnarliest scenario I know of out there is: There's a major brush fire on Cajon. Like, 20-foot-high wall of flame. Is it far enough away for you to try to get the train past it? (With maybe 4000 gallons of diesel fuel under each locomotive, and maybe liquefied petroleum gas tank cars in the consist?) Or do you park the train, and hope the fire doesn't come to you? I mean, I guess an AI can make that decision without being influenced by concern for its own survival. But I suspect that most train-driving AIs don't have a really good set of training data for this scenario...

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lmm on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:10AM (#23972480)
> I suspect that most train-driving AIs don't have a really good set of training data for this scenario...

I suspect most human drivers don't either. The AI might not make a particularly good decision, but is there any reason to believe that a human would make a better one?

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ezzaf on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:45PM (#23971463)
There's a 1700km track network with both automated and non automated trains, so slightly larger than disneyworld.

https://www.railjournal.com/freight/rio-tinto-completes-auto...

"Australia is notoriously flat"

Citation needed.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:57PM (#23971545)
REally? You need a citation to know that australia is flat?

"Australia is the lowest, FLATTEST, and oldest continental landmass on Earth[4] and it has had a relatively stable geological history. Geological forces such as tectonic uplift of mountain ranges and clashes between tectonic plates occurred mainly in Australia's early prehistory, when it was still a part of Gondwana. Its highest peak is Mount Kosciuszko at 2,228 metres (7,310 ft), which is relatively low in comparison to the highest mountains on other continents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Australia

Russia is big. Switzerland is small. And Africa has gets less snow than Canada. (Citations needed)

The basic route of this train (Newman to Port Headland) is a gentle slope to the coast. +175 and -700m over a 400km journey. (Google maps) Compare that to a route in western canada: Canmore Albert to Salmon Arm BC, the same distance but +2500m and -3500m.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by ezzaf on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:20PM (#23971682)
Being the flattest continent does not mean that the continent is flat. My point is that there is still plenty of hills and steep terrain around. It's not self evident that if you build a train line somewhere in Australia, that line will be flat. In fact the Pilbara automated rail network does contain some steep sections.

It still snows in Africa, and if you tried to climb Jebel Toubkal without a jacket I don't think knowing that Canada is snowier would provide you much comfort.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by taneq on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:55PM (#23970744)
Yep, the iron ore trains are largely automated these days, I believe.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by plumeria on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:53PM (#23969852)
The metros in Lausanne, Switzerland and in Copenhagen, Denmark are automated.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by gspr on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:17PM (#23970065)
Nitpicl: Only one of Lausanne's two metro lines is automated; the m1 is way too exposed to human interaction with the track area for that to be risked as it's currently laid out.

Also, Line 14 on the Paris metro (heavy use) has been automated since the 90s.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Simulacra on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:50PM (#23969813)
What are the drawbacks to automated rail? I had to look this up and was very surprised rail is not automated more in America. Is it safety?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by aahhahahaaa on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:03PM (#23969942)
A mix of politics, bureaucracy, and cost. For example, there was a fatal derailment back in 2017 in the US, and an automated safety system that may have prevented it was delayed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42421417

From the wikipedia article on Positive Train Control (PTC):

>In December 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that Amtrak and the major Class I railroads have taken steps to install PTC systems under the law, but commuter rail operators were not on track for the 2015 deadline.[14] As of June 2015, only seven commuter systems (29 percent of those represented by APTA) were expecting to make the deadline. Several factors have delayed implementation, including the need to obtain funding (which was not provided by Congress); the time it has taken to design, test, make interoperable, and manufacture the technology; and the need to obtain radio spectrum along the entire rail network, which involves FCC permission and in some cases negotiating with an existing owner for purchase or lease.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control

So needless to say... the technology likely exists today, but implementing anything significant to existing infrastructure in the US is a monumental feat.

The above example is just a safety system, but once you start removing employees you also start running up against labor unions... which is yet another layer holding things back.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by stingrae on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:52PM (#23969839)
In BART, in the bay area, I believe it is largely because of Unions.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:39PM (#23970268)
Well, BART had one crash because the automated control system mis-read a command and accelerated when it should have been braking. Debuggable? Perhaps. But after that, it's a tough sell to say that there shouldn't be a human in the cab to say "Wait a minute, that's not right."
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jabroni_salad on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:34PM (#23971385)
American Freight automation will be a crazy beast. Closed lines can be fully automated, and we are seeing a lot of PTC (positive train control) such as automatically enforcing speed limits and collision detection. The driver is supposed to know when they are approaching a red signal -- nowadays the engine notices too.

However, the nationwide freight network is interconnected by many different companies, in various states of repair, with various states of mechanization. I live near a bunch of grain processors and when they are taking deliveries it is a lot of manual switching and back and forth to get each plant's cars to the right lines.

Could it be automated? Yes, the technology is available, you 'just' have to implement it. Will it be? Probably not anytime soon.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Avicebron on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:52PM (#23969842)
Unfortunately there has been a prolonged campaign(ennui?) against rail in the US. I imagine lack of funding for innovation in legacy rail systems is to blame here.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by causalmodels on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:00PM (#23969911)
Rail cannot get adequate funding for even basic maintenance and upkeep and upgrades, let alone modernization, because of widespread corruption among government officials and public sector workers. I'm sure public perception plays some role but it is not the root cause for our current situation.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by taneq on Monday July 27, 2020 @07:57PM (#23970762)
The legal liability issue. If you have a human driver, you can blame them add an individual for any incidents. If you have software in control, the company that runs the train or developed the software is liable.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by m463 on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:55PM (#23971854)
Around 9/11 I was surprised the airplane manufacturers didn't put in a "big red button", that once mashed would irrevocably autoland to the nearest airport.

they've had the capability.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by thetinguy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:08AM (#23972196)
No they haven’t. Flying is the easy part. The hard parts are navigating and communicating. Even then, even the largest airports will only support precision approaches on some runways in some directions because maintaining ILS equipment is expensive. What happens when you push the button and there’s a massive crosswind across the ILS runway? Also communication standards have ossified such that the only way you can talk to ATC is through 50s era radios. That means any fully autonomous aircraft would have to be able to accept verbal commands and produce verbal acknowledgments. The technology is so bad that a simple stuck mic can shutdown an airport. https://youtu.be/Wcq6KipBOro
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by m463 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:30AM (#23972282)
I was thinking more "broadcast we are under attack, or pilot unconscious" as the communication, and land (subject to external control?)

They've had autoland for a while. Maybe in this context it means the nearest ILS runway, or nearest externally directed ILS runway. (just not landing in the side of a skyscraper)

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by thetinguy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:36AM (#23972310)
Yes and auto land capability is not always available. Even today object avoidance is a hard issue. What happens when the aircraft flies into a flock of birds or some other obstacle, like another aircraft on the way to the runway. What happens when two planes both push the button at the same time and decide to both use the same runway? Autopilot even in aviation is a misnomer.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by toohotatopic on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:55AM (#23972714)
What happens if they fly into a building because they don't have the button? It's a management of risks.

Besides, there can be a back-link and information updates for the landing box to manage situations with two or more planes in emergency mode.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by thetinguy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:37AM (#23972948)
Having a unpredictable button which may significantly increase risk to an aircraft and others is not risk management no matter how dire or remote it’s predicted usage would be. First thing any knowledgeable malicious actor would do is pull the breakers associated with the system or simply disable it. This button would have a way to disable it assuming accidental or malicious activation right?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by toohotatopic on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:58AM (#23973071)
You will have a hard time creating a situation where pushing the button for an emergency landing creates a disaster.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by foldr on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:59AM (#23973450)
It's very easy to imagine: the plane lands on top of another plane at a busy airport.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by toohotatopic on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:12AM (#23975346)
That happens if everything goes wrong but you cannot create that situation intentionally. Usually, pushing the emergency button would send an emergency signal, and air traffic control would clear the airport. Landing on top of another plane is an emergency within the emergency - very, very unlikely.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by foldr on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:15AM (#23975994)
You can't just "clear" a big airport. There's also no way to guarantee that the emergency signal would be received.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by toohotatopic on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:56AM (#23977078)
You also can't guarantee that you won't be hit by a meteorite and yet you leave your house.

If you worry about the signal not being received and the inability of air traffic control to spot the irregularity, then only initiate safety landing when the plane receives an answer-signal. Otherwise, let the plane fly however it wants and let it crash somewhere randomly because most places are better equipped to handle a random plane landing than a regular airport.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by foldr on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @04:27AM (#23984511)
I think you're forgetting that the button itself would only be useful in extremely unlikely contingencies. But sure, you can spin a story about a bunch of interconnected automated systems always working correctly in highly unusual circumstances. Doesn't usually pan out that way in practice.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by cmurf on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:38AM (#23972323)
Autoland isn't possible on just any ILS. Autoland doesn't exit the runway either.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by chinathrow on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:45AM (#23972998)
Correct, but at least there is "brake to vacate" the runway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_to_Vacate

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jlg23 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:02AM (#23973088)
When a pilot declares an emergency s/he can rely on the airport and airspace around it being cleared by flight control. If a hypothetical red button was pushed, there would be a standard procedure the aircraft computers execute which in turn can be relied on by flight control.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by nharada on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:16AM (#23972509)
You can buy these for smaller airplanes: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/

Basically a "pilot is incapacitated" button, it will pick the nearest airport and attempt to land there, and will even communicate with ATC. I believe the idea is that if you're a general aviation pilot flying with your family and you keel over, they can press this button to get down safely.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jillesvangurp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:29AM (#23974990)
Garmin ships a feature called autoland. I think at least one plane is shippng with that.

Austin Meyer (of x-plane fame) actually build an ipad app that can be hooked up to the autopilot (he actually did this at some point but never shipped the integrated product probably for certification reasons) to do exactly this. It's called xavion: http://xavion.com/. Basically the app calculates the safest glidepath to the best airport for you and guides you to that. The feature is designed for engine out scenarios where pilots don't have a lot of time for making good decisions. It basically continously updates its plan as you are flying based on glide ratio, altitude, runway length and a few other factors.

The autopilot integration is probably not all that hard to do. It's just tricky from a legal point of view.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by PinguTS on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:41AM (#23973328)
The problem is security. How do you prevent that such a system is unhackable and can't be misused remotely? That's the number one concern in all of these industries these days.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by hobofan on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:52AM (#23973755)
The same way you protect all other flight-essential electronics? You air-gap it.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by zo1 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:03AM (#23973475)
This, this is why we can't have nice things. I understand the hacking concerns, but really, it seems that we've constructed arbitrary and next-to-impossible problem-space boundaries that appear to only stifle change and solutions to big problems.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by 7952 on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:02PM (#23969936)
There are still safety critical things that the Airbus is unable to do itself. For example talk to ATC, make decisions about changing weather conditions, fly a visual approach, or know that the causes of an electrical problem is coffee spilled on the thrust levers.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by joshribakoff on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:08PM (#23971620)
Why would there be coffee spilled on the thrust levers of an automated airplane? There is not a robot in there drinking coffee, and presumably they don't just put the thrust levers in the cabin with the coffee drinking passengers. You don't have people in the wheel wells either debugging issues, you rely on the systems to work.

AI can definitely talk to ATC, in fact it could disrupt ATC who could send declarative commands to planes to remove chance of miscommunication.

Even my Telsa makes decisions about changing weather conditions (eg. disables automated lane changes in heavy rain & such, AI controls the wipers)

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by azalemeth on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:11AM (#23974476)
The coffee is a reference to this incident -- https://ukaviation.news/spilt-coffee-caused-smoke-and-fumes-... -- in which coffee spilt by the pilot caused an electrical fault. Apparently there is quite a lot of high-current equipment in the avionics bay and it is not ingress-protected....
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by srcmap on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:46PM (#23971817)
I love to know if we use https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=air+crash+inves... (Air Crash Investigation Play List ) as test cases for the current Airbus system, how many crashes, or near misses can the automation system handle?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by one2know on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:12PM (#23970030)
Exactly, there is a limit to the intelligence that people are willing to pay for. For example, no aircraft manufacturer will go as far as to develop a differential thrust system that replicates how UA 232 pilots guided their plane after flight controls are lost. Its just not cost effective.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lopmotr on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:44AM (#23972354)
It's not necessary to reproduce all human abilities in recovering from emergencies because about half of crashes are caused by the human pilots in the first place. Just automating the routine things and letting it crash in exceptional cases could be safer than having a human that can save it in the exceptional cases but also mess up the routine things occasionally.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by 7952 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:07PM (#23981191)
Although we have no idea how many potential crashes become near misses as a result of human intervention. For example a pilot initiating a go around in response to a runway incursion. I absolutely agree that most of those issues could be avoided with better technology. But that may require changes to all airports, all aircraft and perhaps even all airport vehicles. Suddenly every single approach is category iii, all the time without any alternative.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by joshribakoff on Monday July 27, 2020 @10:12PM (#23971646)
Is it really any different from a self driving car thats designed to pull over to the side of the road safely if its main functionality fails for an unexpected reason?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by one2know on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:39AM (#23973673)
Yeah, aircraft can't pull over to the side of the road in a catastrophic failure, and aircraft manufacturers will not pay to have the unique actions that a human faced with death would take built into the aircraft systems.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by cgh on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:41PM (#23969726)
Vancouver has SkyTrain:

"SkyTrain is the oldest and longest, fully-automated, driverless, rapid-transit system in the world."

https://www.translink.ca/Schedules-and-Maps/SkyTrain.aspx

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by PinguTS on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:47PM (#23969791)
Which is a completely closed track, much like an elevator.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by 4ec0755f5522 on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:18PM (#23970078)
Not sure this meets your definition but the Expo line splits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line_(SkyTrain)#Route
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by boudin on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:48PM (#23969804)
There's a few one that existed before then. Quite crazy to think that some existed in the 70's, almost half a century ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_guideway_transit
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by cbanek on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:59PM (#23969896)
I've always been amazed at the trams in Vegas between the casinos that are I think remotely semi-automated (at least one of them, I've seen an operator in a booth at one terminus, in the Excalibur). Some of them are even elevated! I think the Las Vegas monorail is also automated.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:49PM (#23970338)
I rode the Las Vegas Monorail, which is automated. It is also elevated. When it gets to the end of the line, they tell everyone to exit the train. Well, I didn't (hey, there's no attendant to make me...)

They then switched from one track to the other. This involved moving down past the station to this stub of track that just ends in midair, with absolutely nothing except the control system to keep you from going too far and crashing down 15 or 20 feet to the ground below. That was... a bit nerve-wracking. It all worked, and they don't regularly fall off and crash, but... I don't think I'd do that again.

But yes, they're automated, and it works, and works reliably.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by cbanek on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:10PM (#23970856)
And if it works in one of the places in the world where people can carry open alcohol, it's pretty foolproof? :)

Love the part about not getting off the monorail. I'm tempted to try that myself someday!

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by davidhyde on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:51PM (#23969830)
It is very difficult to convert trains to run fully automated not because of the technology but because of unions that typically run the show. Don’t underestimate the power of the unions. They have decades of experience in getting their way.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by Dahoon on Monday July 27, 2020 @06:03PM (#23969945)
Very US specific.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by peteretep on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:44PM (#23971087)
Why do you think that?
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by lmm on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:12AM (#23972494)
Plenty of examples in the rest of this thread are talking about automated lines in France, which has some of the strongest unions in the world. So the idea that unions are what's blocking automated systems is crazy, at least if applied globally.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by sebazzz on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:10AM (#23973521)
The problem with automated air transport is that the failure mode is going down through gravity and probably not being able to land on a suitable surface. I doubt we have automated pilots developed so far that any failure (and those are a lot!!) can be handled, and even then you might want to manually control.

The failure mode of automated driving is less severe. You're already on a road, gravity holds you down and unless the brakes don't work (although in an electric car or bus, when not accelerating you're braking) the likelihood of accidents is smaller.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by maxekman on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:17AM (#23973554)
It’s always possible to have a remote control station with extremely well trained emergency pilots to take over in those case. That of course requires a very reliable remote control system.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by jvanderbot on Monday July 27, 2020 @05:47PM (#23969793)
This is a highly underrated insight to autonomous system design. The use of autonomous systems in dense public spaces will usually be driven by programmatic constraints before technical ones.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by askvictor on Monday July 27, 2020 @09:17PM (#23971284)
One of the few things a pilot needs to do (in normal operation) is to enter the take-off weight of the plane, but they get that wrong sometimes: https://australianaviation.com.au/2011/12/incorrect-data-ent...
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by reactor on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:21PM (#23970921)
In Singapore, many MRT (Mass Rapid Transport, a.k.a Train) lines are fully automated, there are no drivers to drive them around.
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by vkou on Monday July 27, 2020 @08:33PM (#23970994)
Vancouver's SkyTrain (Elevated/underground commuter rail line) is 100% automated - and the first branch of it was built in 1985.

Unless they changed it in recent years, I believe it's control systems currently run on OS/2.

Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by C1sc0cat on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:46AM (#23974038)
My first job was based at Cranfield University which had an attached airfield - and back in the 80's they where practicing auto landings then
Re:Airbus' self-flying plane just completed taxi, take-off, ... by tootie on Monday July 27, 2020 @11:20PM (#23971962)
I heard similar from a retired pilot in about 1994.