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Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by causality0 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:04PM (#23838561)
I really hope Starlink works out. I have relatives whose only option is satellite internet and with the ultra-low data caps streaming video is just not an option at home. Imagine living without Netflix or Youtube.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by asdfk-12 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:42PM (#23838984)
I found living without Netflix and Youtube enlightening, as inter-library loans granted many titles that aren't available to stream. Also, Netflix dvd-by-mail service works fine in rural areas.

After a while, I realized that my habituation to constant connection wasn't actually making my life more enjoyable... but for telework I'm rooting for a connectivity solution via Starlink.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by rootsudo on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @09:16PM (#23840154)
Same, 100%. It all feels like a drug. Addictive and dangerous.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by the-dude on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:50PM (#23839055)
You mean like when we had only 2 national TV channels?

Life was wonderful. I was outside a lot.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by 72deluxe on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @07:07AM (#23843600)
I know, it sounds bliss! Like the 1980s - fewer distractions, clearer thoughts.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by reaperducer on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:08PM (#23838605)
Imagine living without Netflix or Youtube.

You mean, the way I and several billion other people do right now?

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by OhSoHumble on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:29PM (#23838838)
For me, it's more about what kind of opportunities people miss out on when they're in an underserved area. For example, a lot of learning is being done remotely right now. How does a student on a satellite Internet connection participate in a streamed classroom? They can't so they just... miss out on schooling.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by solotronics on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:47PM (#23839522)
I was in a tiny surfing town in Costa Rica and they had gig fiber. You reach it via 3 hour car ride through the jungle and rivers on a single lane dirt road. Better internet than I have in the US.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by firmnoodle on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:14PM (#23839734)
but how were those pings to game servers in North America? I'm guessing they take too long no matter the bandwidth to the local exchange.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by paulmd on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:25PM (#23839345)
if you're implying that people in the developing world live without internet access, you'd be dead wrong. Cell service is ubiquitous and data is cheap. Those people are probably better-connected than rural Americans (not suburban, but truly rural, the people living out in the sticks).

American data connectivity is just that bad. It's worse than eastern europe. Worse than Asia. Worse than Africa.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by reaperducer on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:39PM (#23839451)
if you're implying that people in the developing world live without internet access, you'd be dead wrong

I imply no such thing. You're projecting your own biases.

I'm merely stating a fact: That not everyone uses Netflix and YouTube, and to consider those life essentials is absurd.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by deeviant on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:13PM (#23839723)
I think saying something that is not essential to you cannot be essential to somebody else is absurd.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by ajhurliman on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:58PM (#23839615)
I've used YouTube to learn a tremendous amount from programming to home improvement and beyond. I wouldn't consider it essential to my life, but I would certainly be worse off if I didn't have it.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by causality0 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:00AM (#23841844)
Firstly, I didn't call them life essentials; I invited the typically nerdy and internet-focused HN audience to imagine life without two services which comprise over 25% of global bandwidth usage in order to remind them of the massive accessibility gaps which still exist even in wealthy countries. Secondly, why does something have to be completely universal to be considered a life essential?

Also, you tweet about streaming shows on FoodNetwork Go, so why do you act like that's any different from Netflix and Youtube?

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Dylan16807 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @11:42PM (#23841046)
Did you forget the part where you said "several billion other people"?

If you're not talking about the developing world, and just look at the rural and those who don't want a connection, that's not nearly enough people. So it's not wrong at all for people to assume you meant the developing world.

And nobody said they were 'life essentials'.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by culturestate on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:48AM (#23842084)
To be fair to the other person, China alone (in which neither Netflix nor YouTube are widely available) is almost 1.4 billion people. That could easily be part of their calculus, though I guess you could argue over the meaning of “several” in this context.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Dylan16807 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:37AM (#23842335)
I see that as pedantry. We're talking about internet speeds, and the equivalent of youtube.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by culturestate on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:49AM (#23842411)
> We're talking about...the equivalent of youtube.

Well, you certainly are, but I don't think the person who originally brought it up was.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by rootsudo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:35AM (#23843384)
I would say in many developing world regions, Facebook is the internet.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by ajhurliman on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:37PM (#23847709)
This. When I travelled to Vietnam I was shocked to find out access to Facebook was free (unlike the data plans, which seemed expensive to me and therefore likely out of reach for most of the folks there.

It was really nice to be able to communicate with my travel buddies reliably, but this is definitely the tiered internet people are afraid of.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by joshvm on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:57PM (#23840026)
This is partially true. Connectivity is better than most people imagine, even in places like Madagascar (was something like the fifth poorest country recently?). We had 4G in the middle of nowhere and yes, it's cheap for Westerners.

However just because 3/4G exists doesn't mean people can afford it. In Madagascar for example, the minimum topup is 100 ARY or about 3 cents. Most people can't afford significant amounts of data, especially not when an autoplay video can bankrupt you.

That's the big problem with the argument that starlink is helping developing countries. These countries would be much better off with better rural cellular coverage first, not expensive satellite networking. Unless spacex will subsidise developing nations, who's paying for it?

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by agildehaus on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @09:22PM (#23840177)
Starlink makes improving rural cellular coverage much easier. Just need a tower, electricity, and a Starlink transceiver.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by cptskippy on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:39PM (#23839448)
You'd also be surprised by what's considered rural. Vermont is the most rural state and it's right next to Massachusetts which is one of the least rural.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by driverdan on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:14PM (#23839736)
How is VT the most rural state? Both Wyoming and Alaska have a significantly lower population density.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by cptskippy on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:37AM (#23845015)
Rural isn't a simple calculation of area divided by population. It's based on the density of the population. People are not evenly distributed over Alaska or Wyoming, the majority live in urban settings around cities with the majority of the land in those states being uninhabited.

60% or more of the population in Alaska and Wyoming live in an urban setting. In Texas it's over 80% and in California it's over 90%.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Ericson2314 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:55PM (#23839588)
Vermont is the state with the most even distribution of people also?
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by cptskippy on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:48AM (#23845159)
I have no idea.

New Jersey's population is 99% urban, does that mean they all chose to live in an urban setting or that the State is so crammed full of people that there's no place to live in isolation?

Looking at a map of New Jersey, it looks like if you managed to setup camp in the middle of a state park you might manage to be 5 miles from the nearest town.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by DudeInBasement on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @09:37PM (#23840251)
Vermont is also filled with trolls
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by oneplane on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:14PM (#23838675)
I think the point wasn't people not having it available or not using it by choice, but people who are used to having it and now having to imagine not having it.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by dzhiurgis on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:45PM (#23839012)
Imagine living without JS. 90% of the web would break. Right now a decent amount of web would break without images and even some without video.

If you live on a yacht with cheapest sat connection (which is really obscene at $150 per month) you get a mere 2kbps. That's not even enough to load html. You only get to get email and weather via specialised software.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by chongli on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:03PM (#23839168)
But then you live on a yacht. Why not pull into a port with known good wifi and download what you want in bulk? Use your sat connection for email to keep in touch. Sneakernet the big things (movies, TV, games).

This is what life was like for me when I first got the internet back in the 90s. 14.4 dialup translated to around 1.5KB/sec. And I lived at home. I didn’t get to enjoy travelling the world in a yacht.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by pixelface on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:50PM (#23839544)
having internet closer to normal standards would allow more people to enjoy such a thing. I could afford to buy a sailboat now, but if I were to take it out to sea I would be unable to work the job that funds my existence. starlink (or others) bringing cheap and reasonably fast internet to the ocean would open up a world of exploration to people who can work remotely. supposing you are okay with the inherent compromises of being aboard a sailboat, something like starlink is really the only missing piece for being able to do it without being a successful lifestyle vlogger or very very wealthy.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by kortilla on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:10PM (#23839231)
In the 90s the internet was optimized for dialup. The web now is unusable on 56kbps
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by chongli on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:39PM (#23839446)
Hacker News is totally usable on dialup. The home page is only ~7KB. I'm sure there are plenty of other sites out there which are usable as well. RSS feeds should be fine as well. Podcasts can be downloaded in bulk when you pull into port.

I didn't even mention the web in my original comment though, and that was on purpose. When you live on a yacht, you get to be out exploring the world and enjoying life. Why would you want to be cooped up in the cabin, scrolling Facebook or Twitter, or watching Netflix all day? If that's what you want, you should probably sell your yacht and get an apartment with broadband.

There are plenty of people out there who still live without broadband. People on small islands, or in 3rd world countries. They may not be wealthy, but they have happy lives. With a yacht you can go visit some of them. Spend some time eating food and enjoying different cultures. The world is a big place.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by kortilla on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:11PM (#23839709)
A big portion of yacht life if you use it to see other countries is travel time. Having the Internet would be super nice. As of now you have to make do with books, movies.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by dzhiurgis on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:45PM (#23839944)
Because you need to do work..?

You won't be able push a git commit with those speeds. Let alone debug a SaaS app.

Plus pulling to port is one the largest expenses when living aboard. Maybe 4G on the coast can be quite affordable, but depends on the country.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by pferde on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:28AM (#23842627)
I apologize for an off-topic comment, but I just had to chuckle at the term "living aboard". In similar contexts it is usually a typo of "living abroad", but here it is quite fitting. :)
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by rootsudo on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @09:15PM (#23840142)
That's exactly why. 1990s throughput in 2020.

30yr ago speed.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by xbmcuser on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:56AM (#23841495)
The number of people without youtube access is decreasing every year. It is weird to me how many of you sneer of youtube use when I see it becoming more and more a platform for passing knowledge to people specially in the developing world that did not have access to it before. Yes because of easy access a lot of bullshit spreads too but youtube as a whole is an underrated access to knowledge for a lot of the third world.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by randomsearch on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:28AM (#23842285)
Curious that a HN commentator never uses YouTube. If you’re a dev, don’t you come across video tutorials that you have to watch? Do you have insufficient bandwidth?
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by pferde on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:32AM (#23842650)
Unless it's for something physical (assembling an object) or otherwise visual (painting, 3D computer modelling, mapmaking), video tutorials are pretty bad for conveying information, due to low information density.

For programming, it is especially wasteful, as compared to an article with code samples, or, if necessary for the particular topic, a screenshot or two.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by randomsearch on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:22AM (#23842919)
Don't disagree with you, but sometimes video tutorials are the _only_ source for such information (Some of Google's cloud services are guilty of this).
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by thesmok on Monday July 20, 2020 @10:02AM (#23897931)
I'm a dev, and I only watch videos for entertainment. Any programming video tutorial could be a webpage, and I get professional information in text form exclusively.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by beamatronic on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:21PM (#23838756)
Well, those folks don’t really count. /s
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by adsjhdashkj on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:55PM (#23839103)
Curiously, what is your point here? I'm sure you understood the authors message, so i imagine your reply is cheeky in some manner. I imagine your reply pokes fun at the idea of those being important.

However.. i just don't get that. I imagine several billion people can disagree about many "important" things. Does that dismiss the importance of those items? How many millions of people live below basic human means? Should those basic means be considered unnecessary?

I imagine if i lived in the woods in the middle of no where i might scoff at the idea of electricity. That doesn't invalidate peoples dependence on electricity. Which, is what is what i take from your comment. Sure, Youtube vs Electricity, not quite a fair comparison - i get that. Nevertheless your comment strikes off the mark for me, but perhaps i don't get your intent.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by dkersten on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @08:19PM (#23839764)
Honestly, my life got a lot better when I cancelled my Netflix and stopped watching TV. I’ve taken up actual hobbies like playing guitar instead, as well as working on personal projects. I still use YouTube, but I’m trying to ever so slowly wind that down too.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by joe_the_user on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:29AM (#23841311)
I lived with satellite Internet for about seven months.

It's slow but still a bit faster than dial-up. You can watch short youtube videos but not movies - unless you like to wait.

The main problem is latency, so it's completely impossible to use your phone over wifi.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:14AM (#23842217)
You do know that Starlink is completely different because their satellites are not on geostationary orbits (but instead much closer to the earth), right?
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by joe_the_user on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:52PM (#23852519)
Sure, the gp started out talking about regular satellite, that what I was commenting on.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by shaklee3 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:53AM (#23841468)
Starlink won't have higher data caps than other satellite providers. They have at most 20Gbps per satellite, and realistically, much lower. Even with a couple in view that's still far less than the existing HTS satellites.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by judge2020 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:01AM (#23841522)
Close - based on https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1128834111878193155?s=20, 60 satellites providing combined 1tbps ~= 16.6 gbps per satellite.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by shaklee3 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:04AM (#23841545)
This doesn't say how many will be in view at any time. Since this tweet they've had suspected propulsion problems and have filed an amendment to change their orbit to a lower one.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by mlindner on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:06AM (#23841216)
I lived perfectly fine without Netflix and Youtube for most of my life.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by chrisco255 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:07PM (#23838592)
Yeah you gotta physically go to a Redbox and rent a DVD and stream HBO via satellite. It's almost unbearable.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Johnny555 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:12PM (#23838646)
I've never understood why people used Redbox when you have to physically go to a kiosk, you're limited to whatever movies are in that kiosk, and worst of all - you rent by the night, so if you decide not to watch it, you've either got to return it, unwatched, or pay more.

Netflix still does DVD rentals, and though it's been a few years since I've used it, they had a great selection and except for some new releases just after relese, they were always in stock.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by brianwawok on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:22PM (#23838770)
Netflix was a commitment. Redbox was a whim.

In the years before streaming netflix, I often did Redbox. Pick up a DVD on the way home form work on Friday. Return is Saturday when I go out shopping.

Do it twice a month, spend $2 (or $3 when they raised the price).

Netflix was 9.99 or more, and you basically had to watch 5 or 6 DVDs a month to "get your monies worth". So I often found myself watching a DVD when I didn't want to because I had already paid it, so I could send it back and get the DVD I actually wanted but didn't get because it was out of stock.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Retric on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:44PM (#23839496)
Netflix DVD is solving a different problem. The issue with Redbox or streaming services is they frequently have absolutely nothing I want to watch. I tend to go to the movies enough to have seen any new releases that I had any interest in. However, with a vastly larger selection I can load up on classics or random recommendations. It might not be what I was in the mood for, but it will be good.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by xmichael0 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:34PM (#23838892)
How old are you? I remember being a kid 30+ years ago going to the VHS store and picking out some crap and loving every minute of it. It's an experience. I remember the joy of going to a vHS / DVD rental shop with a date etc. Nothing wrong with getting out of the house for a bit and picking something out, it was fun! (;
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Johnny555 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:06PM (#23839195)
Yeah, I remember that too... but then when I was old enough to be on the hook for returning my own movies, it lost its allure and I switched to Netflix DVD as soon as it was available and never looked back.

I still have a few blockbuster VHS's floating around that I was so late on returning, I had to buy them.

Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by gfosco on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:19PM (#23839301)
For a time, it was a really convenient thing, generally located right at the grocery store. It was easy to grab a movie and return it the next time. It was also pretty easy to copy things.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by ed on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:15PM (#23838694)
Broadband is not just for entertainment. Almost all quality educational content has moved to (surprisingly) Youtube.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by zdragnar on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:12PM (#23838666)
Streaming via satellite is actually quite painful, and getting a 4glte data plan is almost always the better option over satellite (from personal experience).
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:16AM (#23842228)
It's not the same satellite. Do you know that starlink are not the same kind of satellite and don't have the same latency as the old providers? Starlink is much closer to the earth and has much lower latency.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by chrisco255 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:16PM (#23838701)
Streaming via internet, yes, but streaming one of the 500 or so channels with scheduled programming on satellite TV is not. And totally agreed, if you've got 4G that's the way to go.
Re:Starlink WiFi Router FCC Approved by zdragnar on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @09:07PM (#23840096)
I never tried satellite TV, but have a few relatives who had nothing good to say about it, mostly due to poor reception issues. I think if you live in a dry region it might not be so bad, but unlike with internet, you can't as easily drop a connection and try again when watching a scheduled or live broadcast.