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Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Jonnax on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:49AM (#23790131)
The ribbon interface was adopted in 2007. That's 13 years ago.

What is the jank? It's a tabbed interface of buttons instead of menus and sub menus.

The most common operations are descriptive buttons.

Give someone word 2003 or word 2020 who has never used a word processor before. Which one would be more intuitive?

It's bad UI if people just learn where to click. They should be able to think in terms of "I want to do X" and be able to do that as quick as possible.

Of course with specialised tools that's a different story. AutoCAD hasn't really changed its interface but it got superceded in areas by new applications that break people's workflows in a lot of cases.

It's just a word processor. The knowledge you should have gained when being taught was the concepts of what you can do with one.

That should allow you to adapt to different software. Once you've used a word processor you don't need to read the help page for Google Docs.

It's not like switching from Maya to Blender.

I don't agree on the free software projects point. Often they're made by volunteers. And anything too "daring" would be shouted down by the community.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by edoloughlin on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:10AM (#23791094)
The ribbon interface was adopted in 2007. That's 13 years ago.

What is the jank? It's a tabbed interface of buttons instead of menus and sub menus

I've been using Office since the early 90's and the ribbon interface for the last 13 years. I still can't find stuff easily in the ribbon interface. It's like there's some cognitive barrier to me retaining the layout of anything beyond the Home ribbon (or tab?). Any time I switch to the other ribbons (tabs?) I find myself hunting, wondering if I've got the right tab.

There's something about the spatial layout that seems to impose an extra cognitive load. I know menus are spatial too, but it seemed easier to remember them. Perhaps, because each menu occupied its own area of the window when expanded. With the ribbons, the same area is reused when you switch tabs.

With Word and Outlook, I've got slightly better retention. However, with Excel, where I seem to have a wide distribution of seldom-used functionality, it's an exercise in frustration. I know something exists, but it takes ages to find it because the last time I used it was probably a few weeks ago.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by shawxe on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:29AM (#23791265)
I agree with this completely. It's a lot easier for me to read through a list of things in some category than it is for me to scan through a bunch of irregularly sized tiles for the icon and description of the configuration I need. For me, all of the pictures just lower the density of the information and cause it to take longer to parse every single time.

I also question the basic premise that the tabbed interface is somehow more intuitive for new users. Like many UI related assertions, absolutely no concrete evidence is being provided to support this point. I would think that it would be easiest for new users (as it is easiest for myself) to have options sorted into neat menus with uniformly sized elements where information is laid out in a vertical list (which is how lists are written in basically all left-to-right and right-to-left languages) so that it is easier to parse quickly.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Wowfunhappy on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:34AM (#23791836)
> It's a lot easier for me to read through a list of things in some category than it is for me to scan through a bunch of irregularly sized tiles for the icon and description of the configuration I need.

I think you hit on something here with the irregular size of the buttons, probably moreso than the icons. The arrangement makes it difficult to just read through all the options left to right, because they're all jumbled.

A common/recommended design pattern for older Mac apps is to have a top toolbar of large icons, which is actually quite similar to the Ribbon in some ways. But there, the options appear in a single horizontal row. https://i.ibb.co/wd6MR9c/Screen-Shot-2020-07-10-at-11-58-37-...

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by MereInterest on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:56AM (#23792836)
Not only are they jumbled, but they also change size/shape depending on the width of the window. A large button when full-screened becomes a small button when in a smaller window. A large button in a smaller window gets expanded to show all sub-options when maximized. There is no visual consistency for the same button.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:52PM (#23793491)
That was a feature designed to fit more options on smaller screens. I personally like it and find it helpful.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by gmueckl on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:38PM (#23795474)
It messes up any attempt to recollect of the locations of certain features in the bar. Some iterations of the ribbon even fold groups into menus under single buttons, so the exact path to feature then depends on the width of the window. This turns the ribbon into a pretty inconsistent user experience.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:54PM (#23799326)
I don't recollect the location of features by their spacial location, I recollect them by their place in a hierarchical ordering. The exact path to a function is always preserved, as the keyboard shortcut for that item is defined by that path.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by gmueckl on Saturday July 11, 2020 @04:49AM (#23800588)
Ribbons (in Office, at least) change that very hierarchy depending on window width. For example, take the Home bar in Word: the "Editing" and "Style" groups collapse to buttons with submenus before the width of the window is reduced to half screen width on my computer. This affects keyboard navigation in the ribbon bar, too, of course.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:25PM (#23803307)
This doesn’t actually change the hierarchy of commands, as evidenced by the fact the keyboard shortcuts stay constant. I appreciate hiding these first before Font, since I use Font more than Styles or Editing.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by gmueckl on Saturday July 11, 2020 @02:50PM (#23804655)
What hierarchy is supposedly staying constant? Keyboard shortcuts have no hierarchy.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Saturday July 11, 2020 @07:08PM (#23806987)
Keyboard shortcuts for functions in the ribbon map directly to their placement in the ribbon hierarchy. Tab, section, subsection, etc. You press alt and then a series of one or more letters that define the path to that item.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by flukus on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:01PM (#23798801)
> I think you hit on something here with the irregular size of the buttons, probably moreso than the icons.

This would also explain why other icon based UI's like the tool palette in gimp don't seem to suffer from the same problem. A grid of buttons is about as "programmer UI" as they come but once you learn where everything is it's quick and easy.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by HideousKojima on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:45AM (#23792711)
Vertical lists can also work better with the wider aspect ratios of modern monitors. There's tons of empty space on the left and right in a typical Word document, but MS decided to suck up limited vertical space instead
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jodrellblank on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:08AM (#23791583)
> “I also question the basic premise that the tabbed interface is somehow more intuitive for new users. Like many UI related assertions, absolutely no concrete evidence is being provided to support this point.”

Uh, yeah there was? Go dig through the wayback machine for Jensen Harris’s blogpost series about the design of the ribbon, or watch his MIX08 talk on it; he was the design team lead for the change, and the reason they did it was because the old UI was failing their users. There were usability studies done during the ribbon design which fedback into, and changed, how it worked to adjust to ordinary people’s expectations and needs.

> “I would think that it would be easiest for new users to have options sorted into neat menus”

Like many UI related assertions, absolutely no concrete evidence is being provided to support this point.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by woah on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:05PM (#23794419)
There's never any shortage of cranky commenters on HN with eloquently written 4 paragraph posts about how some complicated interface from 1993 is the pinnacle of computing productivity, demanding peer reviewed studies to the contrary.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by fgonzag on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:12PM (#23795886)
I mean, you could argue that some complicated interfaces like VIM's modal editing are the pinnacle of productivity for power users.

But power users and ordinary user's needs are world's apart, and the office suites have to cater to both of them. Thus the deep divide.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jodrellblank on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:41PM (#23793351)
"There's absolutely no evidence for this" "yes there was, here's what to look for" "downvote". HN.txt.

Top level menus full by Word 95. Office 97 added command bars. Nested menus and toolbars full by Office 2000. Office XP added Task panes, full of features by Office 2003. "the Task Pane was the last attempt to find a way to scale old-style UI to programs as full-featured as Office. Although it was a successful stop-gap measure, it ran its course in only two versions." - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/new-r...

> "The downside [of nested dropdown menus], however, was clear and eventually terminal: increased complexity. It's much more difficult for people to form a scanning strategy with hierarchical menus: you have to keep track at each moment which levels you've visited and which you've haven't. What was once a simple structure to visualize was now a more complicated, branching structure."

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-ol...

> "As we watched more people use the prototypes, we started to understand more the scanning process that was taking place. Later on, we did eye-tracking studies to watch how people scanned the Ribbon"

> "I was reading a blog entry of someone who was kind of critical and dismissive about what we're doing and our designs. One of his criticisms was "how bad the usability of the Ribbon would be because it's got icons scattered all over of various sizes." What we've learned is actually the opposite. People can scan disparate patterns more easily than homogenous patterns. When we use more toolbar-like layouts--a bunch of equally-spaced, equally-sized buttons, people scan them less quickly than when each chunk has a memorable layout. So we actually try explicitly to vary the layouts between chunks--it helps people find the thing they're looking for more quickly. That's something we wouldn't have known if we didn't have a commitment to watch people work."

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/be-wi...

> "One of the concepts behind the Ribbon is that it's the one and only place to look for functionality in the product. If you want to look through Word 2003 to find an unfamiliar command, you need to look through 3 levels of hierarchical menus, open up 31 toolbars and peruse about 20 Task Panes. It's hard to formulate a "hunting" strategy to find the thing you're looking for because there's no logical path through all of the UI.

> Office "12" consolidates all of the entry points into one place: the Ribbon. So if you're trying to find a feature and don't know where it is, the scope of your search is drastically reduced. Click on the leftmost tab, and click across the tabs until you reach the end. That it. It's either there or it's not--there are no other "rocks" to look under, no other places we've hidden functionality. We've found in early tests that people find it easier to discover how to do new things in the Ribbon, and they're more apt to explore the UI looking for better ways to get things done."

Testing showed that people found the Ribbon easier, found more things, and were more willing to explore it. - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/enter...

> "* Back in the olden days of designing software at Microsoft (say, pre-2003), design decisions were mostly supported by guesswork. [...] How much data have we collected? [in the Customer Experience opt-in program] About 1.3 billion sessions since we shipped Office 2003 (each session contains all the data points over a certain fixed time period.) [...] one of the biggest reasons that we decided to do the new user interface for Office 12 is simply that, for the first time, we have the data we need to make intelligent decisions.*"

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/insid...

And that's not even from the design blog, which appears to be offline and not in the wayback machine.

Totally wrong about people finding menus easier, totally wrong about there being no evidence based design behind the ribbon.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by strbean on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:07PM (#23794439)
> It's either there or it's not--there are no other "rocks" to look under

Nit pick on this quote: every time I've used the ribbon, I need features that have been collapsed into a "more" list (hamburger menu?) for that section of the ribbon.

Also:

> you need to look through 3 levels of hierarchical menus, open up 31 toolbars and peruse about 20 Task Panes.

I'm really dubious that the ribbon is better in this regard. Those menus still exist, and I end up falling back to them with some regularity after searching the ribbons and not finding what I want (perhaps it is hidden in a hamburger menu). Furthermore, each option in the ribbon takes up far more screen real estate than an item in the drop down menu, and there are sub-dialogs still abound.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by 6510 on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:04PM (#23795063)
I really love good UI design and I'm convinced I don't have what it takes but I do keep seeing arguments and interfaces that seem quite weird to me. I would do it like this:

The desire to keep the document (or whatever it is) worked at on the screen during the "hunt" I consider a mistake. When mixing paint on a pallet the eyes are focused on what you are doing. You might want to look up to the canvas and back down again several times but there is never a need to do both.

I also feel drop down menus are a mistake. There (imho) should be a key on the keyboard to bring up the "hunting" screen (perhaps one that can be panned to the left right top and bottom with the arrow keys) and every "button" on that screen should be visually mapped to a key combination. F keys are great for this. First F key for the "button" group, second F key to pick one or a 3rd for 12 x 12 x 12 options.

When folder trees stop working because you have to much in them you should do tags (in addition) that can hold duplicates of the functionality. Then when tags also fail to scale you need a search feature. Each interface "button" or group should have a lot of hidden text by which it can be found. Typing cursive should highlight the italics "button".

It would definitely become a big mess but my gut says it can be sorted out and be equally accessible to people using it every day and first time or rarely users.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by egypturnash on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:13PM (#23795907)
I’m an artist who works mostly digitally. When I am mixing colors I have the color dialog right there on the screen next to the art, with my changes being reflected live. How does this color work with the rest of the work? That’s what’s important.

The only reason traditional artists use a palette far away from their art for their paint is because that works in the physical world. Mixing my colors right next to my virtual canvas is a huge speed-up compared to painting a ton of thumbnails with different colors.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by sergeykish on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:03PM (#23803613)
I see a problem - target user group.

I'm watching MIX08 The Story of the Ribbon [1] and trying to be objective. He is optimizing for 50% who paste with mouse. Essentially it is Microsoft Bob 2.0.

Office was done, "good enough" but some people complained, there was bad press. Microsoft added intellimenus, task pane - acknowledged mistake. Then ribbon. It could work for new users. Not for me. Now I better understand why.

The menu / toolbar / shortcut UI provides progression - from least often to muscle memory. Menu is hidden, fallback, toolbar provides customization, no need File > Save or Edit / Clipboard once I know shortcuts.

Ribbon is always expanded menu represented like task pane. They display text when icon is not enough. And group name ... because something. Information density is extremely low. Actual toolbar moved on the title bar.

Layout demo looks good. But as writer tool it is awful, clutter is still here, just behind a tab. Could be fixed with Firefox-like customization menu, not with their spaceship like-control.

I can see how he applied design tenets but in very specific meaning:

* a person's focus should be on their content - constantly changing UI, "content" is styling

* reduce the number of choices - no way to customize toolbar, select one of the tabs

* increase efficiency - of those who struggle with discoverability

* embrace consistency - among office, not OS

* give features a permanent home - even universally known

* straightforward is better than clever - no hidden controls, more visual clutter

* design tenets has to be religion - stick to decision, do not listen to users

Same tenets produce my layout, which is opposite.

[1] https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/MIX/MIX08/UX09

[2] http://sergeykish.com/side-by-side-no-decorations.png

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by mucholove on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:03PM (#23797624)
So much bull crap stuff. The fastest way to find something is to search for it.

And...search for a menu item is a 2nd class feature on the OS. I wish I could click a text field on the menu bar and find stuff. I wish the actions were indexed with the documentation. Oh—and I wish that the keyboard shortcut for that was standard. Not on my Mac, but I’m pretty sure that I had to type it in from a Mac productivity magazine.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jodrellblank on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:01PM (#23798065)
> So much bull crap stuff. The fastest way to find something is to search for it.

Faster to search for "save" or press Ctrl+S? Faster to search for "save" or click the save icon at the top of the screen? Searching is slower, clearly. Even if searching was always faster, it doesn't refute "bull crap stuff" because there was no claim that the Ribbon is the fastest full stop, it's a balance of discoverable and usable; search requires you to know the right search terms to use, and it suffers the problem of the old Office self-customizing menus - the results aren't always in the same predictable order - and if what you want is not in the top few results, you don't know if the feature doesn't exist, does exist by another name, or is in the hundreds of results you aren't going to read. And it has no way to surface features and make them discoverable.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by int_19h on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:34PM (#23798625)
You search the first couple times you need something, then you memorize where it is in the menu. If you keep using it repeatedly, you'll learn the shortcut, since it's displayed prominently every time the menu drops down.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by chipotle_coyote on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:43PM (#23799020)
On the Mac search for a menu item is almost always available as the very first item in the "Help" menu, and the keyboard shortcut for it is both standard and fairly easily guessable: Command + ? (e.g., Command + Shift + / on a keyboard where "?" is the shifted version of "/").

Not every program implements a Help menu, and not every program that implements a Help menu implements the standard shortcut. But in my experience, a large majority do. (Nearly all native apps do, but even some Electron apps get this right. Visual Code does both, for instance, and Slack at least has the Help menu with the search field in the first place.)

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by oblio on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:59PM (#23797590)
> Like many UI related assertions, absolutely no concrete evidence is being provided to support this point.

Microsoft did massive amounts of user testing, just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it's not there. This is a good starting point if you have about 20 spare hours: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ They also backed their tests with a ton of data and metrics.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by int_19h on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:39PM (#23798652)
I remember back when Visual Studio 2012 shipped with black & white toolbar icons, and main menu in ALL CAPS. This was all backed by studies that supposedly showed how most users prefer it that way, according to the lengthy blog post about it.

Let's just say the community's reaction was not in line with those studies...

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by wolco on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:25PM (#23797795)
Testing and metrics can be wrong like in this case. A ton of data can be too much where we find patterns to reenforce what we want.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by oblio on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:39PM (#23797916)
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what Microsoft was doing is closer to science than what HN does every time an article somewhat related to the Ribbon is posted.

I'd bet on Microsoft's approach over these rants, every day of the week.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by wolco on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:05PM (#23798088)
Each person who voices an opinion is a real value and a real data point. What Microsoft is doing may look like a science but they are not asking the right questions so they get misleading results.

Reminds me of when facebook pushed autoplaying ads. A/B metrics when through the roof. Sales never saw so much engagement. Every slapping each other on the back. Ask a user they didn't understand what was happening, there was a fear that was introduced around scrolling your own feed.

Science is great but only attempts to answers the questions you give it.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by michaelmrose on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:17PM (#23798152)
I recall the first time I used the new windows 8 UI. It was absolutely horrifying. There were 2 different control panels with different settings sometimes overlapping. The traditional UI in which you could start apps by clicking on desktop shortcuts and manage traditional windows but certain apps including the start menu put you seemingly randomly in the weirdo new app experience where the window took up the whole screen. This was also true of clicking a url link in a different app.

It was bar none the worst desktop interface that anyone has ever released for a computer.

You have asserted without evidence that MS's UI is driven by science and you are assuming that Microsoft's research is in fact any good. Based on consistently mediocre results I have reason to doubt that. To support your position I suggest you actually cite some research instead of assuming it has been done competently.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by barrkel on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:29PM (#23798230)
I read those blog articles as they came out, and bought into the same kool aid as you did, but when time came to use it, it just didn't work as well as menus.

The contextual toolbar is one of the better ideas though.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by cat199 on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:06PM (#23795081)
> It's a lot easier for me to read through a list of things in some category

this also creates a fixed 'path' cognitively since you are reading/naming the intermediate nodes on the way to any given task, and the intermediate nodes are consistently located in the same place spatially and in terms of the path. This is not the same as 'funky star button 2/3 of the way to the right and 1/3 down of the sub-scrolling subpanel of the customizable ribbon'

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ako on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:17AM (#23791154)
The key question is: would somebody who learned to use office after 2007 with the ribbon interface appreciate moving back to the pre-2007 interface?

My guess is that more people learned to use office after 2007 than before, so the majority of people have no problems using the ribbon.

I still yearn for ms-word on dos, and oracle forms on terminal interfaces, once you learned the keyboard shortcuts, nothing was faster. Kind of like knowing vi(m).

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by edoloughlin on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:43AM (#23791919)
My guess is that more people learned to use office after 2007 than before, so the majority of people have no problems using the ribbon.

Or, perhaps they are just used to a lower level of productivity? I've had 13 years to adapt, and I still find it frustrating.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by nicoburns on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:30AM (#23792513)
On the other hand I found it instantly more productive, even right after it was introduced. No longer did I have to remember which menu an option was in. It was all right there.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ptx on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:10PM (#23792982)
It's not all right there - some things are under another ribbon tab, which doesn't seem all that different from putting things in a collection of menus. (Except that visually it's now a jumbled mess instead of a clean and easy-to-scan linear list.)
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by nicoburns on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:17PM (#23803733)
> Except that visually it's now a jumbled mess instead of a clean and easy-to-scan linear list

I think I find the "jumbled mess" easier to scan because my memory is visual, and the items are visually distinct. On the other hand, with a list I actually have to read every item.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by puszczyk on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:50AM (#23792774)
Not sure why this got downvoted — a personal anecdote as a reply to personal anecdote.

On the subject — I’ve learned the “classic” office but really like the ribbon. I’m not a power user though — just a doc or a spreadsheet every now and then.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by bluedino on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:16PM (#23798150)
I learned on the pre-2007 interface, and (at least for Word) I would go back to the Word for DOS keyboard-based interface including the little template you put on your keyboard.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:48PM (#23793443)
> My guess is that more people learned to use office after 2007 than before, so the majority of people have no problems using the ribbon.

Or maybe they didn't have other options...

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by pstuart on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:05PM (#23793653)
MS Word 4.x on the Mac was pretty sweet.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rbg246 on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:14AM (#23791662)
I am also the same, I have a complete block on how to find things, they just aren't where I remember even though as others have pointed out its 12 years since the ribbon appeared.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by nxc18 on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:23AM (#23792423)
In 2020 there is a search feature (similar to VS Code) so there's really no need to have to find anything anyway.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rbg246 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:29AM (#23830313)
Oh nice that will probably solve my dilemma on knowing what I want but not knowing where it is!
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by lallysingh on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:11AM (#23792264)
It sounds like the issue is that the layout isn't spatial. There isn't a 1:1 mapping between place and object. The same place can have multiple objects depending on what tab's selected.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by zoomablemind on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:51PM (#23794917)
Adding to this is the ribbon content is just too busy. It fused icons with labels and stuffed it in some uneven grid. The regular toolbar was more or less even grid, well, a row. The usual menu is also structured on quite uniform grid. It's mentally easier to follow straight lines, we read in straight lines, scroll in straight lines, well, typing too. Yet when it comes to ribbon, the adjustable grid layout makes one adopt an adjustable scan pattern.

I find this pattern quite distracting. Always feels like I'm staring at the old-time toolbar customization dialog, as if someone spilled buttons out of a toolbox onto the screen, and to make it more fun, also mixed them with labels...

Anyone remembers the initial requirement for the ribbon to use the specific font, as it was used for positioning and could not be customized? Not sure if it's still the case.

I wish MS promoted a style-based workflow/mindset more than the free-hand formatting. Perhaps, this would by itself eliminate the need for the busy toolbars, if only during style design.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by agumonkey on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:11AM (#23792270)
Interesting, maybe old menus had some trivial adequate nature for most users and ribbon, even with all its worth doesn't tap into that. Personally I'm still incapable of deciding.. because I hated nested menus (too deep, too adhoc) but the ribbon is a bit less easy to remember than I'd hope. That said it's a good step toward keyboard shortcut memorizing.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by int_19h on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:43PM (#23798687)
One thing about the old menus is that they were extremely configurable. Like, you could not just hide or reorder items, but reorganize the hierarchy if you wanted. People mostly used that for toolbars, but Office menus are technically a kind of toolbar.

Some of that still lives on in Visual Studio, where it is even extended to context menus: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/ide/how-to-cus...

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by frosted-flakes on Saturday July 11, 2020 @10:39AM (#23802513)
The ribbon is also extremely configurable. You can move or remove anything you want. There's usually no reason to, but it's an option.

There's also the Quick Access Toolbar, which is exactly like the toolbars of old if you pin it below the ribbon (not in the titlebar).

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by agumonkey on Saturday July 11, 2020 @03:34AM (#23800314)
Were Office toolbars customizable to that extent ? Also I don't think it applies to most users .. they were rote learners (because never had the time or context to learn to use the computer as an aid but as a protocol to respect)
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:44PM (#23793382)
Yes, the ribbon is a futile exercise. I'm pretty sure 90% of the people don't know how to use it, and the ones who know don't remember where things are. In this sense, menus are much more successful interface, at least you know where things might be. And in fact, when I use MS Word I first try to find things in the menu, and only reach for the ribbon for items I already know from previous experience.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:55PM (#23793526)
I don't understand this criticism. The layout seems logical to me. If you want to insert something, go to the "Insert" tab. If you want page design options, go to the "Design" tab. What's so inscrutable?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:46PM (#23794199)
There are plenty of problems. In the Mac, for example, menus are discoverable because you can go to "help->seach" and type what you're looking for. This cannot be easily done with the ribbon. Moreover, once you have a clue that you're looking for an "insert" option, you still need to search around in the ribbon, since there is no logic for where the option might be hiding. A menu you can read from top to bottom, but a ribbon you need to scan from left to right and top to bottom, making it much harder to use.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:47PM (#23799292)
"In the Mac, for example, menus are discoverable because you can go to "help->seach" and type what you're looking for. This cannot be easily done with the ribbon."

I can't speak to the Mac version, but on Windows there is a search box at the top that returns a result for whatever you want.

"A menu you can read from top to bottom, but a ribbon you need to scan from left to right and top to bottom, making it much harder to use."

No, menus are 2D as well. There's 1 vertical dimension, and then there's the hidden second dimension where you have to hover over each item to see what's inside. For example, in Google Docs under the Insert menu there is an item for "Headers and Footers", which opens a menu with two items: "headers" and "footers". The ribbon flattens this and just lays both out in the tab.

"making it much harder to use."

"Much" harder? Really? Honestly, I've used both interfaces extensively over the years and I've gotten plenty of work done in both. I just don't see what the big deal is about this little war that's been going on for 13 years, and claims of one being "much" harder than the other seem greatly exaggerated. Like... oh, you had to scan in two dimensions to find functions. Okay, how much does that really impact your productivity? How much of your time is really spent scanning a menu? Once you found it.... you can make a shortcut for it. I've got a shortcut for all the common tasks I use, and it's really no different than a custom toolbar from the pre-ribbon era.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Saturday July 11, 2020 @03:38AM (#23800331)
No way, searching items in a ribbon is much harder than on a simple menu, even if you have subitems. It is the difference between reading text (fast) and trying to decipher pictures, specially when they are not well organized. Most people have trouble with the ribbon, I am not the only one who noticed this.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:30PM (#23803356)
Again, “much” harder is quite the exaggeration. I mean, maybe for you, sure, but I’ve had plenty of time in the past 13 years to figure out where things are. If I’m ever genuinely searching for something I don’t scan the ribbon option by option, I use the search bar.

As far as “deciphering” pictures, there’s an association that builds over time. When I see the picture I make the association automatically. There’s research that shows people recognize pictures faster than they read words, since words all look visually similar and pictures have more cues to differentiate between them.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:07PM (#23803649)
You are talking about the experience of someone who has learned the ribbon for a long time. Of course, if you always use the ribbon, it will be more familiar to you. Just like if you were taught Mandarin as a child it will be easier than speaking English. It has nothing to do with how easy it is to use these two different alternatives.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:47PM (#23804085)
I didn’t have a hard time learning the ribbon. Going back to my original post, I just don’t see how it’s so inscrutable as others in these comments claim. Could it be that all these claims of the ribbon being a “much” harder are overblown? It honestly doesn’t seem so much different than a menu system to me, and again there are pros and cons for both. I think if you’re going to continue making this claim you should attempt to quantify it.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by coliveira on Sunday July 12, 2020 @01:35PM (#23813081)
It may also be that claims that the ribbon is easy to use are overblown, and are result of familiarity instead of any true advantage. If you want to claim that the ribbon is easier to use you should also quantify it, otherwise your personal claim is just an anecdote.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:02PM (#23822951)
I'm not saying it's easier to use. I've said multiple times in this thread they seem just about the same to me. They're just two ways of displaying a hierarchy of functions. One way hides a lot of it in menus and takes up less room, the other way lays it out on the screen and takes up more room. I get a lot of work done in either interface. There are pros and cons to both. In the end I can write documents in both. I personally find it easier to discover new functionality in the ribbon, but I feel at peak competency they difference is a wash.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by red_admiral on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:33AM (#23790433)
I'm going to disagree here.

Alice is a new user who has never used Word before. Between word 2003 and 2020, I grant she'll pick up 2020 much more quickly - point in favour of the new one.

Bob is an employee who uses Word just short of 4 hours a day, 5 days a week writing and editing reports (the rest of the time he spends in Outlook, excel etc.). If there's a task that Bob does 50 times in a typical week, then it doesn't matter so much to him whether it takes a bit longer to learn the command (after about the 150th time he'll have got used to it), but it matters a lot how fast he can do it once he's learnt it. Bob literally becomes more productive by having an interface which he can operate by muscle memory, in a way that more than pays off the initial training costs.

Think of keyboard shortcuts for example: they're completely unintuitive to a newcomer, but with experience, Control+Z and Control+C, Control+V and the like save time, and time is money. My favourite word trick in this category, incidentally, is Control+Space "remove formatting" for text you've pasted in from elsewhere; it doesn't work all of the time though. You used to be able to do Control+Shift+V for "paste as plain text", I don't know which version removed that again but I consider it a great loss. Paste -> Keep Text Only takes just longer enough to be annoying.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Tijdreiziger on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:24AM (#23790778)
So what's kept Bob from committing the ribbon interface to memory in the past 17 years?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by XorNot on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:58AM (#23791000)
The ribbon interface removed customizability, and inflated the size of all the common commands (and also made it impossible to get them back without 3rd party extensions).

Pre-Ribbon I could have the menus, file operations, font and paragraph settings, and the reviewing tool bar at the top of my screen. I could have the object and image editing at the bottom.

Post-ribbon the exact same amount of space is does a third as much. Reviewing for some reason is now on a separate tab. The menus are less commonly used functions are non-existent, stuck somewhere under "File" which now takes over the whole screen when I open it.

It is not just "different" it's worse. It removes the basic ability to prioritize my interface to the types of tasks I'm doing, in favor of some vaguely defined every-user who is not actually a real user.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by sp332 on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:18AM (#23791158)
Just to be clear, the ability to customize existing tabs, and make new ones with whatever commands you want on them, is insufficient? Or is this only a complaint about the defaults?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Someone on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:35AM (#23792576)
For those who don’t know: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/customize-the-rib...:

“What you can customize: You can personalize your ribbon to arrange tabs and commands in the order you want them, hide or unhide your ribbon, and hide those commands you use less often. Also, you can export or import a customized ribbon.”

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by kayodelycaon on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:33PM (#23798262)
Thank you! I didn’t even know this was possible.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by craftinator on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:55AM (#23791482)
They've optimized it for the least common denominator, not for specialized use or for power users. Short term this is a positive approach as it's more approachable for people who are just learning or are very lightweight users. But for people who have a lot of experience or use it often, it's a serious regression.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by airstrike on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:30AM (#23791788)
I'm a "Power User" and I've memorized every single hotkey on the Excel ribbon interface to the point that I don't care where they are.

Wrap text? Alt H A W

Open settings? Alt T F T

Change to page break view? Alt W I. Go back to normal view with Alt W L

Take the border I currently have on the top edge of a cell and swap it to the bottom? Alt H B M Alt+T Alt+B

Paste values transposing? Alt H V S V E. Want to follow the old accelerator? Alt E S V E also works

Power users don't need to care what the ribbon / menu looks like. They learn hotkeys.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by throwaway_pdp09 on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:27PM (#23793168)
I'm an emacs user. You have made me feel warm inside.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by smabie on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:20PM (#23794587)
Emacs is a lot like Excel in many ways: they both make you feel like wizards. I suck at excel, but I've seen some analysts who are crazy good at it. You watch them use it and numbers and shit just start appearing out of nowhere. It's pure magic!
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by oblio on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:02PM (#23797614)
On top of that, old shortcuts still work. For menus that disappeared more than a decade ago!!
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by vikramkr on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:11AM (#23792265)
power users have macros and hotkeys. I've met plenty of excel power users, and I haven't met many excel power users that click on anything in the ribbon all that often. Maybe it's different since they're bankers and the amount of time they're spending on spreadsheets is an order of magnitude more than other people that could still be called power users but maybe don't have their lives revolve around excel and powerpoint, but hotkeys and macros are where its at
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by XorNot on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:06PM (#23797650)
Except this is where the intermediate user point becomes valuable: if you spend close to all your time in spreadsheets, then yeah, sure, you're probably in hot key land.

Of course that's discounting the idea that a power user would still want to customize their UI to get less frequently used but still common functions into view and keep them there.

Which is what I, an intermediate user, definitely want: at the time the ribbon happened I was in chemistry research. Excel and Word are important parts of that process! And having them work the way I want was valuable to me. Just not so valuable that I needed to learn a huge number of hotkeys. And yet somehow, the ribbon manages to still be in the way rather then letting me keep a productive, dense UI in view for when I am in those tools - which I'm definitely not in all the time since most of the actual job is being in the lab.

The Formatting/Reviewing split was one of the most irritating possible things as a result of the ribbon: I can't keep the formatting tools in view alongside the Reviewing tools? Like, what?

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by mook on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:40AM (#23792660)
I believe it's because the ribbon is context-sensitive. What shows up depends on what has focus, and that makes it harder for retention, similar to how Office 2000 has automatically hidden menu items that ended up being confusing.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by red_admiral on Saturday July 11, 2020 @06:21AM (#23800956)
At least for this Bob here:

1. The ribbon interface has more levels of depth, which equals more clicks. If most of your commands are in the same toolbar, you can have a lot of commands that are only one click away, even if you don't customise. For example, to "insert symbol" in word to get an em dash or non-breaking space or similar, you have to select the insert tab, click the symbol dropdown and then "more symbols ...". Used to be one click on the "omega" button, or two via the menu (insert / symbol). The fact that I have to move the mouse from one end of the screen to the other and then half the way back again also doesn't help.

2. Maybe this is just me but Alt+N, U, M for "insert symbol" is a lot harder for me to memorise than "the button with an omega up there to the right". It feels less intuitive somehow - I really like working with visual muscle memory (if that's a thing) where I remember the place and shape of a button.

3. Customisability. Yes you can do this to some extent with the ribbon, but in Excel you can't just swap out "merge and center" with "merge across (but do not center)", you'd have to replace the whole "section" - I've tried.

4. Speaking of visual muscle memory - the number of times I've come in to work and found that my ribbon has changed in an update overnight. Some of these are work installing new plugins, but most of it is microsoft adding new "features". No thanks, I don't want my documents "integrated with LinkedIn" when I'm working to a deadline.

5. There have been several major changes to how the ribbon looks and works as Word has gone through new versions since it was introduced - in a lot less than 17 years. Of course that happened with toolbars too (I think around 2000 everything went "flat style", but you could at least turn it off), but I found it easier to adapt back then. Maybe I'm just getting old but each new version that comes out feels like learning half the things I need for work all over again.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by listenallyall on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:35PM (#23798985)
Paste as Plain Text should be the default. The inability to do so via the right-click context menu in Office (like Chrome allows) drives me nuts. Perhaps an exception if you are copying/pasting from the same document, although personally I'd still prefer plain text.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by akho on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @10:42AM (#23832529)
You can make it a default. It's under 'Advanced' in options.

Also, when you paste, Word shows a small button labeled 'Ctrl' — you can click it or press Ctrl, and adjust your paste.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Const-me on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:45AM (#23792716)
> used to be able to do Control+Shift+V for "paste as plain text", I don't know which version removed that again

Try Control+Alt+V. I have Office professional plus 2016, works here, however it opens a popup. Plain text is at the end of the list, making the complete sequence Control+Alt+V, End, Enter.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by red_admiral on Saturday July 11, 2020 @06:07AM (#23800909)
Thanks!

I remember in years gone by, there was a (Sun?) keyboard with extra keys down the left with names like cut, copy, paste, insert, close and so on. I'm half tempted to buy one of those gaming keyboards with programmable macro keys and map one of them to this "paste as plain text" sequence.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by listenallyall on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:39PM (#23799002)
That is no shortcut, that is an abomination. Basic Ctrl-V should be simple plain text paste. honestly, how often do you want the formatting from the source, vs. seamlessly matching the target?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Const-me on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:45PM (#23799288)
> That is no shortcut, that is an abomination

I can see how it's unusable on a laptop, on a full-size PC keyboard that's OK.

> how often do you want the formatting from the source, vs. seamlessly matching the target?

I don't write word documents unless I want rich text features. Just for text there's nothing wrong with plain text or markdown files.

Copy-pasting from visual studio is the easiest way to apply good quality syntax highlighting to a code snippet. The IDE is even smart enough to copy them with dark-on-white colors despite I use dark theme.

Also, I often cut & paste within the same document.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by listenallyall on Saturday July 11, 2020 @07:39PM (#23807197)
>> I don't write word documents unless I want rich text features.

Just for clarification, Paste as Plain Text doesn't paste an unformatted string, it blends with the target formatting. So for example if you are copying a phrase you copied off a web page into a Word doc where the current paragraph is 12pt Georgia, you get 12pt Georgia no matter what the formatting was on the original document. The default Paste will attempt to replicate the color, weight, font size and family of the original web page into your Word doc, which is highly unlikely to fit in with the rest of your document.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rubber_duck on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:23AM (#23791209)
Your argument supports his - Ribbon is better for discovery, keyboard shortcuts are there for routine performance.

It's not just begginers who value feature discovery.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jakamau on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:34PM (#23794734)
Speaking only for myself, but the ribbon interface helped me learn the majority of keyboard shortcuts I use today.

Once I leveled up past basic Ctrl+C/V/X, hitting Alt and having the Ribbon UI guide me through the shortcut combinations was helpful. I concede Control+Shift+V is easier, but having a visual guide until I finally memorize all the different paste options with ALT H V has it's merits as well.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jtmarl1n on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:42AM (#23790893)
I have better luck pressing shift as the first button in the sequence for the "paste as plain text" but I agree it does not always work.

Shift+Control+V

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by dethos on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:00AM (#23791017)
indeed. Focusing only on the newcomer and more precisely the person using it for the first time is just a fraction of the "problem".
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Cthulhu_ on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:13AM (#23790707)
> The ribbon interface was adopted in 2007. That's 13 years ago.

Came here for this. The first version of Office for windows (which is what most people are familiar with in terms of UI) is from 1998, so the non-ribbon interface has been around for 9 years, vs 13 for the ribbon interface.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Macha on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:45AM (#23790915)
Office 95 doesn't look that functionally different from Office 2003:

Office 95: https://i0.wp.com/isoriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/06...

Office 2003: https://imag.malavida.com/mvimgbig/download-fs/office-2003-s...

Honestly even Excel 3.0 (1990) doesn't look that disimilar (https://goughlui.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/about-excel....)

So that's 17 years for toolbars vs 13 for ribbon

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Someone on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:41AM (#23792666)
Still, I guess more MS Office users will have used the new interface for longer than the old one than vice versa (I googled for data, but couldn’t find numbers)

It even wouldn’t fully surprise me if, a few years from now, there were more MS Office users who never used the pre-ribbon interface than who had used it.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by MagnumOpus on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:30AM (#23791787)
> The first version of Office for windows [...] is from 1998. [...] 9 years, vs 13 for the ribbon interface.

You are not even close to right. Excel for Windows is from 1987 (20 years with non-ribbon menus), Word for Windows is from 1989 (18 years with non-ribbon menus). And of course the menu bar paradigm itself is older still.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by listenallyall on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:42PM (#23799016)
you came here to be wrong?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by _jal on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:42AM (#23791915)
I haven't used Word much at all since the ribbon interface. Like others, for whatever reason the ribbon makes doesn't work for me, neither cognitively or via muscle-memory. The categorization doesn't help me predict where to find something (fails "new user" ease of use), nor does repeated use make it easier or faster. And of course I don't use it (or windows) much, so I don't think in Microsoft(tm) English, adding a minor layer of translation for some jargon.

I have to use Excel enough that I've finally rote-memorized where frequently used things are. But when I have to find some tool I don't know where is, it is faster to google for instructions than hunt around the application itself, so I do that first.

I'm sure it is fine if you live in MS-land. I don't, and it fails for this casual user both for discoverability and streamlined use.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by osrec on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:53AM (#23790575)
As an ex trader, I can confirm that the new ribbon interface, when it first came out, caused me and my colleagues a world of pain.

We knew all the shortcuts keys in the old version. The ribbon UI meant that a big chunk of the previous shortcuts didn't work anymore.

Killed our productivity for a good few months.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by sxg on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:31AM (#23790815)
Had the ribbon interface been the original UI and the traditional menu-based interface the new UI, it sounds like you and your colleagues would have still faced the same frustrations. To me, it sounds like your issue is with change rather than the effectiveness of either type of UI.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by danShumway on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:21AM (#23791196)
For me, that's the point.

For a program as ubiquitous as Word (and as complicated as Word), unless there were clear benefits from the new interface, it shouldn't have been changed. The change itself was the problem.

Your comment is getting at an important, fundamental UX principle: all conceptual change is inherently painful, and every time you ask a user to re-learn something you are always wasting their time, even if the new design is better.

Sometimes a UX designer looks at two interfaces as completely separate, and thinks their job is just to pick the best one. The reality is that usually UX decisions can't be separated from the current state of the app. UX design is more like surgery, and the invasiveness of the operation has to be a consideration.

Having said that, I'm mildly skeptical that the interface didn't need to be changed. The old interface for Word was extremely user-unfriendly. If you go through a few of the interviews about Ribbon[0], there was some really interesting thought put into the new approach around discoverability, and while I'm not sure I agree with all of the theory they used to justify it[1], the changes did seem to be addressing a real problem.

But I think it's debatable whether or not the discoverability benefits were worth the pain, and I think there may have been better ways to roll out the changes.

[0]: sorry, too lazy to hunt them down and link them

[1]: I am mildly skeptical of contextual menus/toolbars. They're not wrong, they just have drawbacks that people don't always consider. Sometimes it's useful to tell people what is disabled, and to give them grounded, unchanging "landmarks" in the UX that they can use orient themselves while using a program.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by craftinator on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:59AM (#23791507)
I think that choices like this come from a weird symbiotic relationship between UI designers and product managers. The UI people need to justify their jobs; if they sit on their hands all day because the UI works well, they can't make that justification. Managers don't want to "see a product stagnate" and to fix that they want a "fresh new look". The users don't enter into this relationship.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by osrec on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:48AM (#23790935)
No, not really. Some 1 or 2 key shortcuts became 5 key shortcuts with the new ribbon UI.

It was a real nightmare! Especially when the old shortcuts were also remapped to a completely different function, and your moving s so fast you don't realise where your data has gone!

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ModernMech on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:20AM (#23791180)
The ribbon allows you to add your most common used commands to a quick shortcut list that are only 2 keys.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by EL_Loco on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:25PM (#23793152)
Of course there's an issue with change. That's the whole point. If you were a pro Emacs/Vi user that used shortcuts to do pretty much everything and it made you fast and productive, what do you think would happen if suddenly you had to use new shortcuts for all the ones you had already commited to memory?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by senorjazz on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:52AM (#23790958)
Good old Microsoft changing the shortscuts every major release, because. Because? Because fucking why? Why do they do this.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rakoo on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:37AM (#23790865)
Your experience reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1172/
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by osrec on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:47AM (#23790929)
But, the new ribbon interface was much more inconvenient.

If I recall correctly, pasting data while removing duplicates in the ribbon interface was Alt+AQORT, but only Alt+XY in the old Excel (I don't remember what X and Y were, but I know it was a 2 key combo!)

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by signal11 on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:09AM (#23791086)
Excel kept the old Alt based keyboard shortcuts, e.g. Alt D F F for Data > Filter > AutoFilter still works.

If there was an alt-keyboard shortcut for paste removing duplicates, that should still work.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by osrec on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:12AM (#23792287)
That's the point; the old shortcuts did not always work. Worse still, they did something totally different. For "power users", it was a horrible experience.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rdiddly on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:02AM (#23792167)
AutoCAD went along a similar trajectory actually - from menus to toolbars to a ribbon. The difference is, you can still turn each of those modes on and off, including using two or all of them at once. Whereas Microsoft just kind of went "Okay y'all are gonna use a ribbon now."

Edit: Forgot the AutoCAD command line. You can still turn that on too, and type commands like it's the 80s. It's actually kind of a paragon of a mature product that maintains all its older interfaces.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by sbuk on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:53AM (#23792796)
Haven't used AutoCAD in anger for a while, but my default rest position on the keyboard is still fingers over Esc, thumb over space. I always preferred using the command line. Not out of some 'power user' power trip, but more for screen space and efficiency. Being able to use AutoLISP was pretty neat too.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by rdiddly on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:22PM (#23798921)
I came in during the "toolbar" era, but ended up using the command line quite a bit. It was custom ACAD macros, and then AutoLISP, that got me back into programming after a long hiatus.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by conception on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:38AM (#23791336)
Oh it’s bad to learn where just to click, I recently learned that’s how most people do it.

You might find this interesting - https://www.truity.com/blog/intuitives-guide-getting-along-s...

There was a discussion on HN about this a while back but most people learn computers by “if I want x I do y.” And guards just how they learn. Changing UI for them is catastrophic because they literally have to relearn -everything-. Op is probably a sensor and finds that stability tremendously useful.

This really helped me be less frustrated in seeing how people can’t just figure out technology on their own and how I can just mess with it until I figure out the ”language” the app is using to have users interact with it. Most people can’t do that.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ThrowawayR2 on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:51AM (#23792036)
> "There was a discussion on HN about this a while back but most people learn computers by “if I want x I do y.” And guards just how they learn. Changing UI for them is catastrophic because they literally have to relearn -everything-."

Yes, but it's surprising to see a large contingent of them on HN and other technical forums. The rapid change of software technologies all but mandates adaptability and willingness to learn.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by tw04 on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:59AM (#23792870)
The ribbon was one of the worst things to ever hit Office. I remember it was met with universal horror when it first came out, but they were fully committed (apparently not having done ANY user testing) and insisted people would get used to it and prefer it because: we paid someone a ton of money who told us it's better.

Like many others, I STILL to this day have to google to figure out where things are with the ribbon interface, probably the least intuitive interface I've ever used.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by henrikeh on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:07PM (#23792946)
> but they were fully committed (apparently having done ANY user testing)

It is a little hard to parse what you mean, but Microsoft did a quite substantial amount of research leading up to the ribbon. A quick search on the net will lead you to summaries of it.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by tw04 on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:18PM (#23793065)
Sorry, I left out a *not.

I vehemently disagree, in 2007 NOBODY liked the ribbon. My wife's company refused to upgrade until absolutely forced to because it was such an atrocity. The most glowing reviews I ever saw were "I guess I'll get used to it eventually" and/or someone who used office once a year and found navigation easier when the extent of their workflow was changing font sizes.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/oh-the-horror-why-is-microsoft...

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/turn-...

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2651076/microsoft-s-ribbon...

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Biganon on Saturday July 11, 2020 @06:53AM (#23801118)
People hate change, that's not a reliable indicator. You could increase the quality immensely, most users would still feel attacked because they have to spend an extra effort to adapt.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Pxtl on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:22AM (#23791198)
I don't think anybody is bemoaning the loss of the old Office buttons. The buttons were always kinda bad.

The problem is that the ribbon also killed the menu bar. Menu bars are a standard, known quantity across every application, which clean easy semantics for keyboard access. On some OSes they even augment the menus with searchability, celebrating the power of plain text.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by henrikeh on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:53PM (#23793510)
Alt-key shortcuts work on the ribbon and search is build in as alt+Q (at least in Excel and Word). I use both daily.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Angostura on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:44AM (#23790908)
> What is the jank? It's a tabbed interface of buttons instead of menus and sub menus.

That keep changing and moving about.

I use Word on Mac. It has the ribbon. 90% of the time I use the old style menu bar at the top of the screen.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Mister_Snuggles on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:14AM (#23791656)
Word for Mac is almost the perfect evolution of the UI.

It has the menu bar, which every Mac app has since it's a fixed and global UI element. It has the ribbon which is good for many users and makes many tasks easily accessible.

I'm not sure how you'd make this compromise on Windows without making a mess of things, but on the Mac it works very well.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by kgwxd on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:45AM (#23790920)
I've used office daily for 20 years but rarely have to use the ribbon menu at all and, if I do, it's rarely off whatever is up there by default. But every time it is, it's way more painful to explore compared to a plain text menu and after I find what I'm looking for, it's hard to get back to the default.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by black_puppydog on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:45PM (#23794184)
At the risk of starting a fire here, I'd say a much better approach to that was unity's HUD. You could simply fuzzy-search through all the menu items. It made using GIMP delightful. :)
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by veddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:39PM (#23797407)
That is the one thing I miss most about Unity! It was such a sweet feature. (Also, Unity minimised on the vertical space it used, which was great for small laptop screens.) The new GNOME versions are much improved compared to a few years ago, but I do wish Canonical had stuck with Unity...
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Spooky23 on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:22AM (#23791723)
There is a population of people who just hate the ribbon. In my experience, they are usually attorneys talking about word. It's the same argument that their attorney ancestors made about Wordperfect 5.1 keystroke commands.

Personally, I don't see the big ribbon issue. It's easy to search for arcane features in the help menu.

IMO, they really need a Mac where you get the top menu bar and a ribbon-like thing. Or some sort of gnarly keyboard mode that would become emacs for lawyers.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by barrkel on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:34PM (#23798265)
I suspect it might be dependent on whether someone is stronger visually or spatially vs textually.

I find ribbon interfaces highly irritating anywhere I find them, which is rarely - they haven't really caught on outside a couple of MS apps, AFAIK.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by pseingatl on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:26AM (#23792457)
Attorney ancestors?
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ghaff on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:51AM (#23792775)
It's just a cutesy way of saying a long time ago when all the lawyers used Wordperfect. (A word processing program that I hated almost as much as Wordstar.)
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by tjalfi on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:29PM (#23797827)
They are still out there.

Last year we recruited an attorney from a firm that still uses WordPerfect for all their documents.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by int_19h on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:50PM (#23798730)
There are still law firms that require all their attorneys to use WordPerfect.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Spooky23 on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:38PM (#23794099)
In some places, not so long ago :)
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by ghaff on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:29PM (#23795364)
I imagine a lot of big law offices still have computers with WordPerfect on them so they can read old files if necessary.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by slavik81 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:52AM (#23799893)
WordPerfect is still maintained by Corel. The most recent release was in May.

They also maintain PaintShop Pro, WinDVD, and WinZip. I think they're running a retirement home for distinguished software products.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Spooky23 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @02:01PM (#23804196)
Corel is the Microfocus of client software!

The thing is I get why people hang on to COBOL or Attachmate. The company licensing WinZip is the puzzler to me! :)

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by webmaven on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:50AM (#23792769)
> Attorney ancestors?

GP probably meant something like "forerunners" or "predecessors"; some form of "those who came before" that doesn't necessarily imply a familial relationship.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by billfor on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:14AM (#23792325)
I think the old style menus were more functional for technical people and other experts, but the ribbon might be easier for new users. MSFT seems to have understood that trade off. It's interesting that the Metro design, which seems closer to the ribbon, didn't take off the same way.

But from functional perspective I do like the old interface better, and especially that I can pullright to get at things without having to make multiple clicks.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by subhro on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:14AM (#23792314)
> It's bad UI if people just learn where to click.

A combat pilot would respectfully disagree. :)

Source: Diving pulling 5Gs canopy side down.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by einpoklum on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:29PM (#23797328)
> The most common operations are descriptive buttons.

The most common operation is trying to decide which ribbon something is supposed to be on. And it's difficult to get straight even after more than a decade, if you're just an occasional MS-Office user.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by jellicle on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:28AM (#23791256)
> It's bad UI if people just learn where to click.

That is literally the entire and sole purpose of a user interface.

Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by wolco on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:23PM (#23797773)
I curse the ribbon. I still haven't found all of the 2003 features.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by Forge36 on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:47AM (#23791977)
The ribbon changed again in office 365.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by frosted-flakes on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:01AM (#23792161)
In looks only. Functionally and layout-wise, it's pretty much identical.
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by sbuk on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:37AM (#23792615)
AutoCAD went ribbon around 2010...
Re:LibreOffice: The Next Five Years by domador on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:16AM (#23792350)
Yes, the ribbon interface was initially pushed on the world in 2007, and it's still as bad as ever.