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Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by rwhitman on Monday June 29, 2020 @01:23PM (#23679753)
I've been a tech consultant in LA for more or less 15 years at this point.

A very large portion of well funded, early stage startups that crash and burn in LA are typically because media people have a hard time conceptualizing lean startup, and rapid iteration etc. Over the years I've accepted it's not so much hubris as it is entertainment is just a different industry with a different way of doing business and people who found success in entertainment think that method they achieved translates to tech startups, when it unfortunately doesn't.

In Hollywood you put all this time and money into one big event like a film, or an album or a pilot and people scoop it up due to marketing. They consume it, then they are done. If they like it they ask for more. So if you have the money you spend all of the money at once to make the best thing possible, put as much marketing and PR against it as possible and people will consume it anyway. Usually you make some of your money back. If consumers ask for more, that's a bonus. Then you go out and raise more for the sequel or the next album or whatever.

Of course tech is different - you can't put all that money into the first iteration and expect it to pay off. You need to stretch it out over many experiments and control burn over years. It's just a totally different financial model and business plan. There are so so many Quibis out there that never got past private alpha / beta. The execs spend YEARS crafting that perfect alpha, open it up privately to friends and family, it flops and then they throw in the towel just like that. I've seen it more times than I can count now

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by sbarre on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:45PM (#23681735)
In my experiences working in tech for the entertainment industry, I also found that big-budget movies and TV used to be built on "hunches" and "gut decisions"..

There wasn't a ton of market research, iteration or testing, at least not up front. Executives would green-light a project and budget based on their personal experience and/or biases and opinions about what will work and what won't..

Not sure if that's still the case (this was ~10 year ago), but that rarely works in tech.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by AareyBaba on Monday June 29, 2020 @08:59PM (#23685379)
What I learnt working at a large Hollywood Studio years ago:

- Movies begin as risk assessments and cash flow analysis in the finance dept based on historical data.

- The revenue graph for a movie is a function of release month, the number of celebrity actors in the film, the box office receipts, followed by DVD sales, followed by TV release and a long tail of syndication (airlines, cable etc).

- Studios know, for example, that a romantic comedy in Feb staring Jennifer Aniston and Adam Sandler will make a guaranteed $35 million at the box office regardless of what the movie is. A summer blockbuster with Will Smith will have a guaranteed $100 million in box office and DVD sales spread out over time. Sequels to popular movies will bring in a certain minimum income guaranteed. Movies that minimize dialog and maximize action do well in the global market. Include China or a Chinese celebrity actor in the plotline and you are guaranteed millions of additional revenue. This provides the bean counters information on how much to spend on movie production to minimize risk and ensure a steady revenue stream throughout the year.

- So the finance dept will green light a February rom-com with a production budget of $10 million, a summer blockbuster where there can splurge $75-100 million on production etc. They monitor other studio release dates to avoid going head-to-head with their releases. They keep a stable of celebrity actors on studio contract and force directors to include plot lines that maximize a global audience.

- It is only after the finance dept gives the green light and budget that they go and look at possible movies to make and pick a director. Story ? - that's just about the last thing to work out (Pixar is the exception).

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by endymi0n on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:34PM (#23682548)
You know what‘s even worse than gut feelings and hunches? Greenlighting processes that are number and „AI“ driven.

While there‘s a limited subset of AI like GANs that I‘d actually call creative, the usual tabular models are none of these.

So what do you do to maximise chances for a box office success?

Do a sequel to (or remake of) a well known movie, hire a star, use the standard playbook (never skip the „all is lost“ moment for dramatic effect) and add a love scene.

If you ever wondered why 2020 Hollywood feels like the same boring stuff in 8k UHD over and over again.

I think Netflix did pretty well with just hiring some known creative people and telling them „whatever you do, just use your gut feeling and we‘ll buy it“.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by reedwolf on Monday June 29, 2020 @07:32PM (#23684718)
>Do a sequel to (or remake of) a well known movie, hire a star, use the standard playbook (never skip the „all is lost“ moment for dramatic effect) and add a love scene

That's been going on since the first wagons rolled into Hollywood.

I'm pretty sure even Shakespeare was doing a 16th Century, theatrical equivalent.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by groby_b on Monday June 29, 2020 @09:48PM (#23685658)
Pretty much. There's somewhere between 7-12 story archetypes. We've settled on ~36 different dramatic situations. "All is lost" is quite literally the entire second act in the classic three-act story.

That's your toolkit. Build from there. And that' been true since we're telling stories, more or less.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @04:27PM (#23706181)
> I think Netflix did pretty well with just hiring some known creative people and telling them „whatever you do, just use your gut feeling and we‘ll buy it“.

Those Netflix decisions about who to hire are extremely data-driven - much moreso than Hollywood. House of Cards was their proof of concept in 2013:

> Sarandos says their wealth of data on user viewing habits proved there's a large audience for Fincher, Spacey and political thrillers.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130126061225/http://www.huffin...

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by sbarre on Monday June 29, 2020 @06:06PM (#23683848)
Pretty sure there's lots of viable options between "gut feeling" and "number-driven"..

But I get your point, either extreme can potentially produce less than great results.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by harrydehal on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:03PM (#23682007)
"The Player" (1992), starring Tim Robbins and directed by Robert Altman, is a good watch if anyone wants a deeper dive into the lifestyles of studio execs who have the authority to greenlight (or trash) projects. Great film!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105151

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by Mindwipe on Monday June 29, 2020 @08:05PM (#23685002)
While initial commissioning might be, what projects get investment in marketing to really succeed is much more based on market research, testing and metrics about trailers etc.

Really initial production is only half your production costs, and is a tricky process where what's greenlit often doesn't bear much relation to what comes out the other end. So the market research and metrics work better when you know a bit more about what the final product is.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by dr_dshiv on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:32PM (#23680723)
> The execs spend YEARS crafting that perfect alpha, open it up privately to friends and family, it flops and then they throw in the towel just like that.

This condition needs a name. I've done it myself too many times to count. The first time was back in 2004 with a Facebook rival at Yale University. We had all this great social photo and media sharing but it wasn't growing against the simplicity of Facebook. So, after a couple months of not being Facebook, we gave up and got jobs

<face palm>

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by tschwimmer on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:57PM (#23681914)
Though the term are almost meaningless, this can be described as waterfall product development. Waterfall isn't always bad (like when you're building a space shuttle or a smart watch) but for consumer product it's almost always wrong. Even if you're able to pick the correct idea to build far in advance, if you develop a giant scope without releasing anything it likely took longer and was more risky than releasing and iterating. And let me tell you, in the vast majority of cases your original idea is far from correct.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by toast0 on Monday June 29, 2020 @11:04PM (#23686060)
I think it all comes down to what's the cost to change the design.

You can't easily change the design of the space shuttle after you built it, so you better get it right.

Consumer hardware isn't quite so permanent, you can always recall the whole thing (samsung phones, early famicom), if you have the money.

But a website is easy to change -- there's no sense making it perfect before you know if people will use it.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by dr_dshiv on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:43AM (#23686947)
> But a website is easy to change -- there's no sense making it perfect before you know if people will use it.

But this sentiment is exactly this issue! "Before you know if people will use it" -- the point is that when people don't use it, is it because it was a bad idea to compete with Facebook or because the design wasn't right? When to give up and when to iterate?

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by strgcmc on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:54PM (#23683668)
In a way, this is yet another derivative of Dunning-Kruger IMO. It's all derived from either: (1) overestimating one's abilities (esp. when transferring from one domain to another), or (2) the corollary of underestimating the difficult/complexity of a given problem because you think you already have enough skills/expertise/resources to tackle it based on your prior successes.

- "I'm a rich/powerful/successful media person. I had success in my industry doing business a certain way, so why shouldn't I be able to translate that into running a tech startup too?"

- "I'm a good programmer and I don't see any reason why Zuckerberg would be smarter than me. What's so special about Facebook? We can beat them."

- "I'm in touch with what most people want, and this product idea totally makes sense to me. All I need to do is polish it up, and I'm sure I'll find users who are as excited about it as I am."

Or, the flip side of the same coin is really about ego. One of the hardest lessons of the lean/agile/tech-y start-up culture (in its idealized form), is to not let ego interfere with learning, but also to be able to let go of ego-centrism without giving up confidence or competence (i.e. you don't have all the answers and you should be fundamentally humble and curious, BUT you should not forget or overlook your existing skills or competencies either).

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by xeromal on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:07PM (#23680361)
Your comment makes me wonder if the tech agile model would work in movies or TV. Imagine if you got bites of a show every week and based on your feedback, the show evolved it's direction. Sounds interesting and strange.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by Apocryphon on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:29PM (#23680685)
Quick bites of a TV show? Sounds like a $1.75 billion idea.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by xeromal on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:58PM (#23681121)
haha, I do sound like a jackass when you put it that way
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:12PM (#23680419)
This is more or less how TV series work. You put out a season, you get feedback, then you develop the next season.

I doubt it's practical for individual episodes yet. You would likely need a month between episodes to do this, and people would just forget about your show in that time.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by goostavos on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:48PM (#23683588)
I think it's practical in a very narrow, definitely-non-scalable sense.

Some folks on Patreon are experimenting with it. One of my favorite series Astartes[0] puts out episodes every rare once and awhile, but we all clamor for them nonetheless.

You couldn't run a normal show this way, for sure. But it is interesting to see the results of it in the small.

https://www.patreon.com/astartesfilm

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by nogabebop23 on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:09PM (#23681267)
not as common as ordering an entire season but lots of mid-season launches are 6-10 episode orders. Also, they don't put out the entire season before feedback, hence many mid-season cancelations. I think this is a hold-over from when the airtime had a lot of value, where as now the broadcast bandwidth for your typical cable timeslot is effectively zero and the content is actually valuable. Async, on-demand consumption has pretty much killed the concept of prime time...
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by catgary on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:30PM (#23680702)
Aren't TV pilots individual episodes?
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by lobf on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:20PM (#23681401)
They are, but there's a lot of lead time that goes in to shooting the pilot, and then even more in planning the rest of the season if it gets picked back up. They end up released at the same time, but that doesn't mean that a year hasn't passed since they started pre production on the pilot.

It's simply infeasible to adjust a show to fan feedback on a weekly basis I think. You'd need either a really small show, or one where most of the elements (sets, lighting, wardrobe, etc.) stay pretty consistent between episodes, then the work would just be a matter of tweaking the story, rather than figuring out how to get the whole crew out to all the locations required to make a traditional tv show.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by walshemj on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:13PM (#23682169)
From listing to some of the director/producers commentary on episodic tv there is a lot of prep work that goes into a show and then you have 7 days to shoot the episode.

So you cant really change that much week to week.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by lobf on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @04:50PM (#23694624)
Yup, exactly. I work in production, and you need so much time to prep all of the aspects of a single day of production, and then working each day in to a rational schedule to get everything you need. You can't just change everything on a whim. (not without lots of time and money)
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by jameshart on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:45PM (#23682758)
This is actually more or less how Andy Weir wrote The Martian - and as a product development model it really did build a story of a kind that otherwise wasn’t getting built by the market. There’s definitely something to this.

Consider also the way standups hone material over many performances building up their set.

So there are incremental feedback models in entertainment - but they’re rare.

I guess remakes and reboots are a crude model of iteration as well, although it’s not like each new iteration of Spider-Man is a refinement of the last based on audience feedback - it’s still speculative ‘here’s that same thing repackaged in a way new audiences will love!’ thinking, rather than creeping towards product-market-fit

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by jwdavidson on Monday June 29, 2020 @10:15PM (#23685807)
This is literally the soap opera model. Soaps actively solicit fan feedback and run productions with composable sets and flexible casts.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by hipshaker on Monday June 29, 2020 @06:00PM (#23683757)
Some shows do actually have a bit of agility as you put it. In its simplest form, you have cahracters written in and out of shows based on popularity. There might also be story paths explored based on fan reponse. This is not the norm of course. But neither is doing a whole season blind-folded like netflix. Things do get tweaked a bit. But there’s a balance to this. You can’t really do great storytelling based on viewer-stats. That’s like a ship steered by wild monkeys. Certainly an interesting voyage, but ultimately not a rewarding one. A captain is needed to steer the passangers on a guided path that will culminate in good experience or not for the majority.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by mech422 on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @12:19PM (#23691664)
This has been done in a very real sense [0]... Defiance was a video game/tv show combo where actions in the game influenced the next episode of the TV show. This included things like 'which side was winning' and who lived/died, etc.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/Defiance_(video_game)

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by rwhitman on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:26PM (#23683310)
I'd imagine the inception of Quibi in the first place probably was a conversation like that?

This situation is emblematic of the fundamental conflict it would face. On the one side the desire to produce rapid cheap bite-size content to iterate on for a metrics-based tech company, on the other blowing all the cash for said content on the Hollywood tactic of putting star power on the red carpet

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by yomly on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:03PM (#23681200)
Sounds like being a Youtuber
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by karthikb on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:13PM (#23680430)
Youtube works this way to some extent.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by cosmodisk on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:39PM (#23680831)
I was thinking about this model as some sort of extension for film trailers:instead of giving out 2-4 min trailer to audience, producers could give 10-15 min,which hopefully be enough to understand whether audience finds it good enough and if it is,a full film is made. However,I can't see it working with all genres.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by drfuchs on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:06PM (#23681226)
In the first half of the 1900's, there were "race films" from Black-owned studios that were actually financed like this. The studio would create a trailer that they'd then show to theater-owners. Exhibitors who liked the trailer would pay an advance against the box office, and if enough signed on, the film would get made and distributed to them. Kind of like authors getting an advance on a book they're writing.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by flir on Monday June 29, 2020 @06:56PM (#23684416)
Do any of them (films or trailers) survive? I've never heard of black-owned studios and I'd like to know more.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by drfuchs on Monday June 29, 2020 @09:00PM (#23685388)
Some do, but not many. Wikipedia has a good entry for “race film”, and http://dhbasecamp.humanities.ucla.edu/afamfilm/ looks like a great resource. Also check out https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/6845-black-cinema-at... and https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/features/short-... and other Google hits on “black cinema”.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by flir on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @12:49AM (#23686667)
Thanks, I appreciate the links.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by nogabebop23 on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:12PM (#23681300)
video games have worked this way for a while, especially since the focus on mega-budget blockbusters. Some Kickstarter media projects also reflect this: someone makes a small short to fundraise, then commits to make a "fuller" length version based on the funds raised, linking the planned scope with available resources - sounds a lot like an agile software project!
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by ohhhlol on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:27PM (#23680659)
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by artsyca on Monday June 29, 2020 @07:42PM (#23684814)
It doesn't even work in tech, bro.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by gdilla on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:08PM (#23681250)
It's because the media world is hit driven. Big expensive productions get thrown away all the time because one huge hit will make your career (or your bottom line). This might work for movies but it doesn't work with companies. The Lean approach is to learn and iterate, but the movie people never learn.
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by clairity on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:19PM (#23682270)
there isn't a big structural difference between the tech and entertainment industries vs., say, healthcare or construction. they're both IP-driven and largely virtual, with lots of winner-take-all dynamics and potential economies of scale and scope.

most ventures fail, whether it's in tech or entertainment. tech has billion dollar flameouts too--webvan, theranos, etc. entertainment has startups that hit big too--parasite for example. founders who exit successfully can more easily raise the next time around, just like directors and producers who have a hit.

each industry thinks it's unique and different, but that's due mainly to ego, not to (many) true differences. even cultures largely overlap. people with gobs of money can (and if warranted, should) fail too.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by rwhitman on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:58PM (#23683718)
I used to agree with the idea that entertainment and tech are similar, but I've had a paradigm shift in my perspective over the last 2 years and it's helped quite a bit.. easy to forget that the internet business is in its infancy. It only feels like a hits-driven IP business right now because there is still room left for innovation and land-grabs. That won't last forever..
Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by clairity on Monday June 29, 2020 @06:51PM (#23684373)
i'd be interested to hear more about the bigger differences, but what you pointed out before didn't strike me as all that different.

for instance, the movie (and tv) business more readily lends itself to a repetitive process constrained on storytelling, which is more focused, on a macro scale, than tech. it would be akin to tech companies settling on only building web businesses over and over again, albeit with different twists. the video game sector has possibly hit that kind of stride.

i don't know that this affects their ability to succeed though, well-funded or not.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by rwhitman on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:12AM (#23686775)
Fundamentally I see the web business from the lens of "data is the new oil". The internet industry is a utility and infrastructure business, period. Content is just one of many things that can be monetized through commodity web technology.

Streaming video for example has more or less stopped producing viable venture startups on the B2C side. Successful new ventures in streaming, the ones who will actually make money, are folks like Disney and Warner with IP. Their business advantage is horizontal integration, rent seeking for content with killer margins over company-controlled pipes. Disney Plus, HBO Max apps have zero notable tech innovations. The only criteria to the consumer is that the content is exclusive and the app stays in the background and doesn't fail. OTT video, as a vertical for consumer innovation, is over.

Same goes for SaaS, ecommerce, social networks, gaming, music, news etc. Maybe we'll get some standout disruptions from time to time as hardware evolves. But the tech is all about plumbing from here on out..

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by vmception on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#23681977)
Exactly, what primary distinction with "tech" company versus what it actually does is its investors.

If the investors are known for hockey stick growth tech startups, your company is a tech company even if you are just long real estate.

Re:The fall of Quibi: how did a starry $1.75B Netflix rival ... by 100-xyz on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:31PM (#23680713)
Good analysis on the thought process difference between SV and Hollywood!