Are they? According to Protocol.com, which got in contact with Apple over the thing:
>Apple allows these kinds of client apps — where you can't sign up, only sign in — for business services but not consumer products. That's why Basecamp, which companies typically pay for, is allowed on the App Store when Hey, which users pay for, isn't.
But if I search for the word "consumer" in the App Store Review Guidelines, the only result is the following:
>Data gathered from the HomeKit API, HealthKit, Consumer Health Records API, MovementDisorder APIs, ClassKit or from depth and/or facial mapping tools (e.g. ARKit, Camera APIs, or Photo APIs) may not be used for marketing, advertising or use-based data mining, including by third parties. Learn more about best practices for implementing CallKit, HealthKit, ClassKit, and ARKit.
Is there another set of rules that actually covers the things that Apple says if the rules are "very clear"?
Does that mean Netflix is a "business service" and not a consumer product?
>Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VoIP, cloud storage, and approved services such as classroom management apps), provided that you agree not to directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods are not designed to discourage use of in-app purchase.
According to Apple/Phil Schiller, any application not explicitly mentioned in this category must offer subscriptions as IAP.
>"We didn't extend these exceptions to all software," said Schiller. "Email is not and has never been an exception included in this rule."
Gmail doesn't actually have to offer Google One subscriptions through the Gmail application. I imagine they are covered by the "cloud storage" exception, which makes me wonder if Hey could also get around it by giving Hey users some cloud storage with their email subscription.
Netflix does exactly this. In fact, Hey uses nearly the exact same wording that Netflix does, almost word-for-word.
There are literally a dozen apps that I am personally aware of that require subscriptions and don’t allow in app subscriptions.
- Netflix
- Sling TV
- ATT Now (DirecTVNow)
- ACloudGuru
- Kindle
- Youtube TV
- Spotify
- Microsoft Office
- Hulu Live TV (not regular Hulu)
Neither app functions without a separate, non apple subscription. The main criticism of Hey, from apples perspective, is that the app doesnt just work when you download it, but the same applies to netflix.
I personally think Hey could get around it by adding some other kind of feature to the app, like a way to read their blog. When it opens on IOS you have a "sign in" or "continue with the free version" and the free version aggregates basecamp marketing copies, as long as that free version isnt just a webview, but some enhanced native experience.
Can they also advertise the cost of their service, through the applepay experience, as "x+30% apple tax"?
With how much of their app is server side (nearly all of it, minus the translation from HTML to native,) I wonder how much they can get away with, without updating the client.
The other interesting thing about this dynamic is, Apple shipped Leopard with Ruby on Rails, which Basecamp created. So in the past, Apple took Basecamp's open source code to make OSX more valuable, but now when Basecamp wants to benefits its users, at no real cost to Apple, Apple says "not without paying us our cut." Maybe not morally wrong, but at least stinks of bad karma.
Because Netflix is the dominant one in the relationship, an iPad without Netflix is a broken iPad to the sort of people who buy iPads.
and email service without an iOS app is a broken email service so Apple intends to take advantage of that.
[1] https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1273719726196187136
* Spotify offers free tier
* Kindle doesn't require buying books, technically you can use it to read documents that you send to your free account
* Netflix and Youtube allow to subscribe and pay via app-store
I'm not sure about the rest, but it seems that even Netflix and Amazon follow the rules.
https://help.netflix.com/en/node/25097
iTunes billing for Netflix is not available to new or rejoining Netflix customers.
If you are attempting to create an account on an iOS mobile device, you can sign up on Netflix.com using a mobile browser and will be prompted to provide an alternate method of payment.
Neither does Youtube Live.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/13/21136730/youtube-tv-endin...
I'd be much more interested in seeing in change in real life before some silly app store.
> “You download the app and it doesn’t work, that’s not what we want on the store,” says Schiller. This, he says, is why Apple requires in-app purchases to offer the same purchasing functionality as they would have elsewhere.
To be clear, this is against the App Store rules for most apps. The exceptions here are apps that are viewed as ‘readers’ that only display external content of certain types like music, books and movies — and apps that only offer bulk pricing options that are paid for by institutions or corporations rather than the end user.
Schiller is clear on our call that Hey does not fit these rules.
“We didn’t extend these exceptions to all software,” he notes about the ‘reader’ type apps — examples of which include Netflix. “Email is not and has never been an exception included in this rule.”
Also, they got their first version through without any issues or a peep about this rule. And only when they needed to push a codefix is when they got held up.
If you're going to have rules, they MUST be applied evenly.
Smaller subscription video or music apps could use the same section in the App Review Guidelines for "Reader" apps to have an app without in-app purchases that you buy outside the App Store.
If you're just trying to read the Guidelines as legalese then it seems to me like there's some serious ambiguity with what exactly the "Reader" section allows.
It seems like Basecamp gets a pass based on the "access to professional databases" exemption. But at what point does a service that caters to consumers AND businesses cross over that line?
The App Store Review Guidelines have been a nightmare to parse through and the Review process an inconsistent mess for many years now. IAP really took it to a whole new level.
This is one of my biggest frustrations with App Review.
It's easy to convince clients to budget for a few days exploratory work that might be rejected, but they're less inclined to do so with the possibility of an approval not being permanent, and then having to sink a lot more money into reworking that functionality at an indeterminate point in the future.
Sometimes you get stung because you're genuinely trying to slip something through that breaks the rules, but other times you get a reviewer with an axe to grind. One app I worked on was in the store for 18 months before they took issue with the way we'd implemented subscriptions. They were also not happy that there were links to Amazon, which if you clicked around for a bit, would take you to Prime Video or Amazon App Store.
While technically mentioning "other mobile platforms" is prohibited in the review guidelines, in this case it was in user-submitted content that you could only find through search.
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#2.3...
>If you're going to have rules, they MUST be applied evenly.
It's also possible that it is being applied evenly, it's just that the big guys negotiated private exemptions.
... which means it's not being applied evenly.
No thanks. Keep iPhones in their walled gardens where they are safe. Androids exist for experimentation.
That's fine too, don't strong arm me out of 30% while letting others get away with no paying that. Some people want a walled garden (you) and dont mind paying for it, others would like to install software of their choosing without letting Apple know what they install and by who.
Apple is not a monopoly, so I feel their attitude here is fair.
Believe me, the rules do make sense.
> “Application” means one or more software programs (including extensions, media, and Libraries that are enclosed in a single software bundle) developed by You in compliance with the Documentation and the Program Requirements, for distribution under Your own trademark or brand, and for specific use with an Apple-branded product running iOS, watchOS, tvOS, or macOS, as applicable, including bug fixes, updates, upgrades, modifications, enhancements, supplements to, revisions, new releases and new versions of such software programs.
> “Provisioning Profiles” means the files (including applicable entitlements or other identifiers) that are provided by Apple for use by You in connection with Your Application development and testing, and limited distribution of Your Applications for use on Registered Devices and/or on Authorized Test Units.
However in practice, for example, I use the Apple Developer Program with Cydia Impactor to build and install apps like Spike and xDrip on my kids iPhones (they are both T1D). It's basically point and click. [1]
[1] - https://spike-app.com/install-spike-using-cydia-impactor/
A quick list (surely more): Ring, car insurance, Amazon, Chewy, Mercari, eBay, Zoho apps, Intercom, Nest, various credit cards, Spotify, Netflix, YouTubeTV, Meetup, 1Password, Griddy, Dropbox, credit monitoring, grocery ordering, etc
Not to say anything is coming from this, but at least they do have enough money to make buzz.
There are countless examples of other applications that have done exactly what Hey is doing without being banned. This is not clearly against the rules. To the extent that it is against the rules, Apple has deliberately phrased them in vague ways to let them change the meaning later. It is the exact opposite of “very clear”; it is abusive. Even Apple fans like Gruber agree.
The Hey app copies Netflix almost exactly, even in the language used for the subscription? How is that very clear for a rule?
[1] "The Hey Email app is marketed as an email app on the App Store, but when users download your app, it does not work," Apple said in a letter to Basecamp CEO Jason Fried on Thursday. "Users cannot use the app to access email or perform any useful function until after they go to the Basecamp website for Hey Email and purchase a license to use the Hey Email app."
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/12/28/netflix-no-more-itunes-...
Edit: I usually don’t comment on downvotes but what the hell?
https://help.netflix.com/en/node/25097
iTunes billing for Netflix is not available to new or rejoining Netflix customers.
If you are attempting to create an account on an iOS mobile device, you can sign up on Netflix.com using a mobile browser and will be prompted to provide an alternate method of payment.
That's what the App Store shows me...
iTunes billing for Netflix is not available to new or rejoining Netflix customers.
If you are attempting to create an account on an iOS mobile device, you can sign up on Netflix.com using a mobile browser and will be prompted to provide an alternate method of payment.
[1]https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#rea...
My guess is that those categories just don’t have the margins to support a 30% cut without charging more then other platforms. An email service, dating all or games are basically arbitrary prices where every sale is making some money for the company. The store cut is annoying, but basically it’s still revenue.
Also, going to the press works. DHH is taking one for the team by fighting this.