News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by butz on Sunday June 14, 2020 @05:39AM (#23516315)
While this might be useful for a casual user, hidden URLs are a huge problem for web developers. Asking for a screenshot from client is not enough, now I'll have to provide additional instructions how to copy/paste full URL when reporting issues.

Not to mention all possible problems with misconfigured servers when www and www-less domains lead to same website, but some script refuses to work on one of those. While it was easy to spot with just a glance at URL bar, now one has to do additional clicking or opening devtools.

Probably we are at the crossroads where developers need separate, not dumbed-down version of browser.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by qwertox on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:33AM (#23517529)
I'm already annoyed by the hassle it has become to copy a substring of the URL into the clipboard, due to the schemes being hidden. Nothing has been won by hiding http(s):// as well as the www subdomain.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by turok on Monday June 15, 2020 @08:56AM (#23526783)
I had a frustrating experience with this only yesterday.

I was trying to search for the word "aquarium" but chrome kept filling in "https://aquarium.org", I would delete the ".org" and only the word "aquarium" was shown in the search bar, which was the word I was trying to search.

Of couse "https://" was hidden, so I was actually submitting "https://aquarium" which was not a valid domain and it took many frustrated clicks and enters to actually google the word that was shown. Absolutely infuriating as the true state of the search bar was hidden.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by bavell on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:47AM (#23518009)
Even when the scheme is visible I have problems copying a URL substring. Chrome always wants to select the ENTIRE URL instead of just the subpath I'm double-clicking... endlessly frustrating >:(
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by taylus on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:31AM (#23517877)
Them acting like this is some kind of user experience thing is the most insulting part.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:34AM (#23518422)
Most user experiences aren't the same as developer user experience.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by thu2111 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @04:26PM (#23521024)
But it is.

The URL bar is a disaster for end users. It's full of random junk that users can't read so they stop trying, which means they can then be tricked by phishing websites hosted on any domain at all. Research shows about 25% of users don't look at the URL bar at all even when typing in passwords, they navigate purely by sight, so it's impossible to stop them being phished. The human cost of the resulting hacking is significant.

The fact that the software industry has routinely prioritised historical inertia, the needs of web developers, and all kinds of other trivialities over the security of billions of people is embarrassing. I'm glad to see the Chrome team finally get a grip on this and make the URL bar actually useful for people.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by franga2000 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:16PM (#23521839)
> The URL bar is a disaster for end users. [...] 25% of users don't look at the URL bar at all even when typing in passwords

"Side view mirrors are a disaster for drivers. 25% of drivers don't even check them before making a turn." [I'll stop the metaphor here, as I think my point was clear]

This change does exactly nothing to improve security. As for usability, it just puts one more layer of paint over the underlying "complexity" - and we've seen before how well that works (see basically every part of Windows 10 for examples).

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by thu2111 on Monday June 15, 2020 @04:30AM (#23525140)
As someone who has worked on the front line of the fight against phishing and account takeover in the past, I can assure you and others that you're dead wrong. Making this change was a recommendation I made to the Chrome team years ago because the number of people who would reliably type in their username and password to a site hosted on hacked web servers (supershop.co.hk/account_login.php etc) was just so high. And when those accounts got hacked, scamming and sometimes even extortion would follow.

Your side view mirror metaphor is unfortunately not clear at all. The side view mirror is simple and performs its function correctly as designed. It can't really be improved without totally replacing it with something else like a camera. Now of course not everyone will use the URL bar even if it's redesigned to work correctly. But right now the bar is practically designed to look as intimidating and useless as possible.

Perhaps you're so used to parsing URLs in your head you don't realise it, but URLs are a baroque and absurd design that nobody without training could properly figure out. It's basically random bits of webapp memory and protocols splatted onto the screen in a large variety of different encodings. In a desktop app dumping RAM straight onto the screen would be considered a severe bug. On the web it's tolerated for no good reason beyond history.

To give just one example that has regularly confused people in the past: URLs are read left to right except for the domain name (the important part) which is read right to left. You don't stop reading a domain name at .com, you stop reading it at the third slash or possibly a colon, but that form is rare.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by franga2000 on Monday June 15, 2020 @05:13AM (#23525383)
As someone who has had to teach grumpy old high school teachers how to not fall for phishing and mitm attacks, I really can't see the problem here.

The way I used to teach was very simple and very effective: there are 3 parts to a URL - the first part tells you if the connection is secure, the second part tells you who you're connected to and the third part tells you where on that site you are. The first part needs to be httpS, the second part needs to be the site you're expecting and the third you can ignore. They're even shaded differently to make it easier to read. "If you're going to Google and the black part ends with anything but google.com, call IT" made sense to even the oldest and most reluctant people I've had to deal with. The problem was actually getting them to check every time and not forget.

It seems to me that this change will not help people without training, change nothing for people with training, and make sharing links even more confusing for everyone.

Are you saying someone is less likely to get phished on "supershop.co.hk" than on "http://supershop.co.hk/account_login.php", even where the http:// part is replaced with a red padlock and /... is grayed out?

I see only one real solution to phishing: don't let users type passwords manually. WebAuthN and password managers both automatically read the domain and won't try to authenticate on a domain that isn't a perfect match. I've had more success with that than any other anti-phishing measure I've tried deploying (history-based domain trust, explicit trust on first use popup, detecting unicode gaps and domains in credential fields...).

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by thu2111 on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:42AM (#23526282)
Sure, absolutely. People understand domain names, they're found on billboards, adverts, business cards, all over the place. And it's a simple text match. Does the bar say "google.com" or "google.co.uk"? Yes? Then you're on Google. So when it's simple people get used to checking and can be reasonably told they're expected to do it.

The greying out and replacement of padlocks etc, the anti-phishing training, it's all just working around a historical design problem in browsers. There's no need for it to exist. Notably, mobile apps don't have this problem.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by m463 on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:59PM (#23534474)
> Nothing has been won

google could make an amp-only web experience without dissent.

hide the URL bar

javascript -> webasm

hiding all this benefits data collection and advertising. Seems obvious to me.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by hckr_news on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:35AM (#23517546)
It is frustrating isn’t it
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by JBiserkov on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:26AM (#23516868)
>Probably we are at the crossroads where developers need separate, not dumbed-down version of browser.

Yes, we are.

Funny enough, Firefox has a 'Developer edition', but that's just the Beta build, with some features turned-on by default.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/developer/

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:06AM (#23517388)
Firefox's still an option.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by cancerSpreads on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:15AM (#23517433)
The quality of Firefox on Windows as software is much to be desired.

Due to slow loading, I'm considering whatever they call the Microsoft browser today.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:21AM (#23517466)
Microsoft doesn't have a browser today, it's just a repackaged Chrome supporting the same Blink monopoly.

I am honestly surprised Firefox on Windows is slow for you. I don't personally use Windows, but many on here say it works well there since v57.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by cancerSpreads on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:11AM (#23517755)
I have tried to fix this slow loading problem. Happening on 2 separate gaming laptops with SSDs.

Maybe I don't know what to Google.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Drdrdrq on Monday June 15, 2020 @04:47PM (#23532774)
Try to DuckDuckGo "why is Firefox slow on Google sites" - or just try to guess the answer...
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday June 14, 2020 @04:22PM (#23520999)
Blink isn’t a monopoly... yet.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by lawn on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:51AM (#23517631)
For what it's worth I don't experience slow loading with Firefox on Windows, or any notable slowdown in any way.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:35AM (#23518436)
I definitely do. FF being perceivably slower than Chrome continues to keep me off it.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by kaetemi on Sunday June 14, 2020 @02:29PM (#23519999)
I only notice this on certain Google sites.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by neop1x on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @07:04PM (#23545416)
Start Firefox in the Profile selector and try using a fresh new profile. Or start in safe mode. Some old, forgotten configuration or addons are sometimes the cause. For example a privacy-enhancing addon CleanURLs disables ETag functionality by default. So all sites using ETag for caching content won't be cached. Big loss.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by ethagnawl on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:35AM (#23517542)
Is this still true in Firefox >= 57?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by reactor4 on Monday June 15, 2020 @10:17AM (#23527576)
Not in my experience.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Sunday June 14, 2020 @05:52PM (#23521695)
Not in my experience.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mschuster91 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:02AM (#23517695)
Not for serious web development (dito for Safari): the developer tools are atrocious compared to Chrome, the battery life experience is way worse with FF, and while Chrome is a notorious CPU and RAM hog, FF is worse.

That combined with both FF and especially Safari being way behind in terms of standards adoption/development really sucks at the moment. Chrome desperately needs competition.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by rickisen on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:31AM (#23517879)
In my experience FF is not behind chrome with new features. It's usually on par, or even better. Sure safari is annoying. But the developer tools in firefox are alright. I even find them better when it comes to debugging css stuff.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mitchdoogle on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @12:51PM (#23541282)
It's odd that you mention how Chrome needs competition but also decry lack of features in other browsers. That is one of the ways they are attempting to monopolize the space.

The standards are meant to be agreed upon by several parties, including both Google and Mozilla. Google implements new features in order to control the way they work, instead of allowing input by all the parties involved. It's always faster for one company to just do whatever they want than for a group of organizations to come to an agreement on what to do. The slower way results in better and more equitable implementation for everyone though.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Sunday June 14, 2020 @05:51PM (#23521691)
Why do you say so with such certainty, though? I find it nearly impossible that you never saw someone claiming the opposite. There's even such a response to your own comment so clearly this experience is not universal.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mrweasel on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:35AM (#23516589)
Google does have an amazing access to data on how 80 - 90% of users are using the Internet, for many Google is the entry point for their Internet experience. Maybe their data is telling them that the URL bar is basically unused?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by butz on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:13AM (#23516800)
That's probably because most advanced users turn off all telemetry when possible. And http://localhost is probably ignored in statistics anyway.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Marsymars on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:36AM (#23516917)
I mostly leave telemetry on in products I care about specifically so that my advanced use cases get logged.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by anewdirection on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:27AM (#23517490)
Thats admirable, but you are a minority within a minority.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:37AM (#23518457)
Honestly, if most "advanced" users turn off the features that Google uses to gather data to improve UX, it's strong signal UX isn't important enough to "advanced" users for Google to optimize for it.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by bosswipe on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:36PM (#23519074)
It doesn't matter if .1% of users turn off their telemetry, their use case wasn't going to be optimized for either way. In fact the Google employees themselves are part of that .1%, they don't need the data to tell them what's important to advanced users.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mehrdadn on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:20PM (#23518921)
What? If most "advanced" users turn off telemetry then they want a terrible product?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:23PM (#23518944)
Then they're valuing other things more than a UX that caters to them.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mehrdadn on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:23PM (#23518956)
Yeah, like their privacy? Since when did getting a good product that respects your privacy become an oxymoron?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:31PM (#23519033)
Automatic metrics are only one tool in a toolbox that includes focus testing and design aesthetic.

But if a whole subset of users exclude themselves from that tool, they're going to get the UX that's only as good as the other tools in the toolbox are capable of building.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mehrdadn on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:34PM (#23519055)
You know software with good UX used to exist before telemetry became a thing?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:36PM (#23519069)
Definitely, and it continues to exist after as well.

But telemetry gives web developers an extremely simple and convenient tool to know what users are actually doing without even inconveniencing the users with explicit questions. I've done web development with a good telemetry set built into a page, and it is extremely informative regarding how users actually use the tool, as opposed to how the UX designers have predicted flow through the tool will be.

To give a concrete example, a user might tell you that configuring permissions is "hard," and sitting with them during over the shoulder testing (which is expensive) might tell you a little bit about why. But without even asking the user, page telemetry can tell you that they are making a transition jump from the permissions configuration page to the page listing all of the resource names, because that's what's slowing them down---the UI didn't give them enough information to configure the resources because we assumed they knew what the resources were named.

For a browser, anonymized usage stats can tell you whether most users keep all their bookmarks flat at the top of the bookmark bar or deeply nested in multiple subfolders, and that's usually valuable for deciding whether you want to emphasize a flat bar or folder management in the design.

If most power users disable automatic anonymous telemetry and also use deeply-listed folders, no one should be surprised if deeply nested folders doesn't get better.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mehrdadn on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:39PM (#23519095)
Yeah, invading people's privacy always makes things easier for everyone else, doesn't it? Doesn't mean people who care about it don't want or deserve quality...
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:43PM (#23519139)
"Deserve" is complicated. To a first approximation that ignores a lot of details... What have they done to "deserve" it? They didn't buy it. They aren't making the process of figuring out what they want particularly easy.

People who don't show up to vote also "deserve" a good government by virtue of being people who have to live in a governed society. It's harder to make one for them if the system for selecting leaders is missing their input, regardless of what they deserve.

Popping out of the government analogy and back to software, power users are also in a position where they are more capable of adjusting their experience to suit their needs. All things being equal, a company with finite resources to develop software should dedicate those resources to assisting the non-power users more often than power users.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:13PM (#23522242)
While you argue your case, that one has to vocalise if one wants something, well, you are still ignoring the basic want of not having your privacy violated and the fact that you can vocalise something willfully, without it being spied away from you. I'm also extremely suspicious of the suggestion that this is something only power users would want.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @08:24PM (#23522656)
You can certainly vocalize something willfully. But the people who don't have to do any vocalization at all and are generating megabytes to gigabytes of data on how the application is used by their mere use of it are going to always have a default stronger voice than people who bother to show up on message boards to voice specific concerns.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:56AM (#23526374)
I actually agree that if you are willing to ignore privacy concerns and a potentially large part of your userbase, then you can simply send megabytes to gigabytes of telemetry and pretend that is the best you could have done and that you have the best data. I'm simply saying that's not a good idea.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Monday June 15, 2020 @09:30AM (#23527094)
a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that

b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Tuesday June 16, 2020 @06:03PM (#23544841)
> a) It's not a large part of the user base who switches off telemetry and they have the telemetry to know that

So you're claiming that it is typical for software with telemetry support to ignore your choice and still send telemetry about you turning off telemetry? That sounds wrong, but I cannot say I investigated this deeply.

> b) for being "not a good idea", it's pretty much industry standard now for everything from business software to video games.

As I understood the discussion, we were in fact discussing whether this is a good idea and whether it makes sense, so I think it's fair game to comment on it. As for it being an industry standard, that sounds like an overgeneralization. It is certainly not typical of software I use.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:50PM (#23596543)
> So you're claiming that it is typical for software with telemetry support to ignore your choice and still send telemetry about you turning off telemetry? That sounds wrong, but I cannot say I investigated this deeply.

No; I'm saying missing data leaves holes that can be measured. They know, for example, how many people have downloaded Chrome and how many daily Chrome users they get at google.com (because Chrome will still send a valid UA string if it has telemetry turned off). They can estimate how many users have telemetry turned off from those signals to a pretty decent degree of accuracy; certainly enough to know whether telemetry is telling them about 90% of users of 30%.

For (b), I'm curious what software you use. It's pretty standard in games, online apps, and business software. It's absent in a lot of open-source (mostly because a lot of open-source lacks a centralized vendor who would be willing to pay the cost to collect and interpret that data to improve the software).

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by feanaro on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:21AM (#23611222)
Is Chrome's telemetry so invasive that it reports about all URLs visited? Otherwise I don't see how daily Chrome visitors on google.com would be helpful in this estimate.

I avoid online apps, I don't play a lot of games (and if I do, they're not big titles which are likely to have telemetry) and yes, I primarily use FOSS.

> (mostly because a lot of open-source lacks a centralized vendor who would be willing to pay the cost to collect and interpret that data to improve the software).

This is almost surely an element of it, but I think a respect for privacy and a general distaste for telemetry among FOSS users are more important.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Jyaif on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:03PM (#23518745)
But they don't have that signal...
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:05PM (#23518765)
Missing data leaves its own wake. Google has numbers to extrapolate how many turn off usage reporting. They lack automated signal in how the users use the tools.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by odysseus on Sunday June 14, 2020 @02:18PM (#23519917)
I do this as well. As an end-user, I actually find some telemetry useful to diagnose things like:

* Apple Watch battery cycle count (not viewable in any UI but is viewable in telemetry logs)

* Clues about why a particular app recently crashed

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by prepend on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:21AM (#23516835)
That would be nice. They should share that data to help others understand the decision they are making. Or at least they could reference the data in their decision making.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by ck2 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @05:47AM (#23516356)
there is a trick for at least chrome before 85, where if you install the google-made extension "suspicious site reporter" it will show the full url including protocol (which you can't even do with flags so it tampers with something internally which means they don't have to do this at all)
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by onion2k on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:19AM (#23516510)
Asking a user to install "suspicious site reporter" in order to send a bug report is going to throw up a few problems.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by londons_explore on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:06AM (#23516438)
I highly doubt a non-default extension has extra permissions that aren't available to regular extensions...

Can anyone reproduce this?

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by marksomnian on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:43AM (#23517583)
The extension ID is literally hard coded in the code of the scheme hiding code. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/master:c...
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by andrewprock on Sunday June 14, 2020 @10:31AM (#23517880)
How a proprietary extension can get preferential features illustrates that chromium is open source in name only.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:38AM (#23518464)
Hardly. If you look at firefox's source, you will find several extensions that are hard-coded for special handling. This is not new.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by andrewprock on Monday June 15, 2020 @11:49AM (#23528687)
True, but the distance between Firefox source and Firefox is config+compile.

You cannot compile Chrome. I've heard that Chromium can be compiled and run, but I've never actually seen it, or hear of anyone using that professionally.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Monday June 15, 2020 @12:03PM (#23528858)
I'm not sure what your point is... You thought it was weird that an extension would get preferential treatment, and I pointed out that this is true for Firefox also.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by andrewprock on Monday June 15, 2020 @12:10PM (#23528949)
My point is that you are correct.

There are other factors at play which mitigate the preferential treatment, but it's definitely there in Firefox as well.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by gruez on Sunday June 14, 2020 @08:44AM (#23517271)
I looked into it several months ago and it looks like that extension is whitelisted to do it. If you try to repack the crx file and install it, the address bar doesn't get changed.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by wolco on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:48AM (#23516982)
Developers at least the experienced ones never left firefox. For the new developers who got hooked on chrome over the last 10/15 years time to move to a developer friendly browser.

At this point ie becomes more useful.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by strictnein on Sunday June 14, 2020 @04:09PM (#23520875)
This is just simply inaccurate. I have 25 years of web dev experience and left Firefox because Chrome's dev tools were far, far superior to those of Firefox.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mantap on Sunday June 14, 2020 @08:14AM (#23517120)
Blink is the most common browser engine. Firefox has some nice developer tools but if you don't test in blink throughout the day then you're just asking for problems.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:12AM (#23517417)
Blink will remain the most common if that's all devs continue to optimize for. Not a way to change anything for the better.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:16AM (#23517438)
And it's what devs will continue to optimize for while it continues to be most common.

The goal of most web developers is to make pages users can use, not get mired down in the never-ending browser wars.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:18AM (#23517450)
It's the most common because devs optimize for it. That's a Catch 22 you can't break out of if you continue to optimize for it, an infinite loop.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:23AM (#23517475)
Yes. That is network effect.

As the smaller vendor, it's incumbent upon Mozilla to break it. Expecting individual devs to do it collectively when it really isn't in their selfish interests is waiting for a unicorn to appear.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:34AM (#23517535)
> As the smaller vendor, it's incumbent upon Mozilla to break it.

That's kind of impossible to do for a smaller vendor without wider developer cooperation.

I remember Mozilla only started to breach IE's dominance once devs were so sick of IE that they installed Firefox on their mom's computer despite tons of sites being made for IE.

It's possible for something like it to happen again with Chrome, but less likely since Google's a lot smarter and not too lazy to implement latest tech, so it will sure take longer without some activism and evangelism from web devs.

> expecting individual devs to do it collectively when it really isn't in their selfish interests is waiting for a unicorn to appear

Selfishness is a lot more complicated thing than people give it credit for. A lot of 'selfless' acts could be alternatively described as selfish in that it makes one feel good. Free software developers already do a lot of work for the wider community, where probably it would be a lot easier to just use the proprietary, already feature-rich, counterpart than trying to develop a libre alternative. But the movement understands that long-term, having as much free software as possible is what will in the end help preserve general-purpose computing in the sea of silos. It takes some discipline, sure, but long-term it's actually in one's selfish self-interest.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:41AM (#23517571)
But that's the thing, if Google is responsive enough to implementing new technologies and improving their browser, there's no reason for most web devs to advocate for an alternative browser. A (high-quality) monoculture is actually much much easier on most web devs, because it minimizes the number of browsers they have to support for quirks.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:51AM (#23517629)
> A (high-quality) monoculture is actually much much easier on most web devs, because it minimizes the number of browsers they have to support for quirks.

Short-term, sure. Long-term it opens devs to Google's whims and makes the "open" web barely more open than Apple's AppStore.

But that's short-term vs long-term thinking and I can't deny most would prioritize the short-term. Here's hoping there's still enough idealists, even among web devs to avoid that fate and bring about for the web what GNU did for UNIX in the 80/90s.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:18AM (#23518289)
GNU did great things for UNIX. It hasn't really demonstrated much utility in the user experience improvement space. The flow there, in general, appears to be that the big, closed source commercial interests devise new approaches for user interface operation and the open source community copies the ones that work.

The only space I can name off the top of my head where my open-source architectures have outstripped Windows and Mac in UX is virtual desktops.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 14, 2020 @01:04PM (#23519331)
If you're taking casual computer experience, KDE's still way more customizable than any of the commercial desktop environments out there.

Of course proprietary software has more funding to hire designers and such, but in terms of actual functionality, I'd contest your claim.

If you're talking developer user experience, it's not even a race. The FLOSS ecosystem has a landslide lead here. In fact the whole point of WSL is to try to keep devs on the Windows platform by bringing that experience to Windows more directly.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by zbentley on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:53PM (#23534430)
> If you're taking casual computer experience, KDE's still way more customizable than any of the commercial desktop environments out there

Customizability is orthogonal with out-of-the box UX, the original axis of comparison here. In fact, the two are often at odds.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Santosh83 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:54AM (#23517647)
Same as saying a benevolent tyrant is the best govt. Viewed from a certain angle it could be arguably true, yet none of us would trade democracy for it because we understand quality and efficiency are not the only factors but need to be weighed with other ethical and social ones.

The history of biological evolution shows that monocultures invariably fail catastrophically. Diversity is the main way to guard against unpredictable events of the future. Software is not exempt from these general rules I'd presume.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by shadowgovt on Sunday June 14, 2020 @11:17AM (#23518274)
I'd be conservative extrapolating from lessons of government and biology to software engineering principles. Software doesn't change via random mutation and natural selection pressure; most open source projects are benevolent dictatorships of some flavor or other.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by mantap on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:00PM (#23522152)
Sorry to interrupt the party here but I feel compelled to point out that Firefox's is actually the third most common engine after Blink and WebKit. The web is not and will not be a monoculture as long as the iPhone exists. There's already two ~trillion dollar juggernauts involved.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Drdrdrq on Monday June 15, 2020 @05:03PM (#23532939)
Blink is a fork of WebKit though. Firefox is the last big non-WebKit browser afaik.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by Mirioron on Sunday June 14, 2020 @01:02PM (#23519308)
Perhaps Mozilla should never have made breaking changes that pushed people away? The UI change that killed my extensions made me look elsewhere. Chrome's much faster js engine sealed the deal.

I've looked into switching back to Firefox, but what I've found is that they don't allow me to use my own extensions. I would have to use a beta version of Firefox or submit all of my extensions that only I use for approval to Mozilla or have to reinstall my extensions every time I close Firefox. None of these seem good options to me.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by onion2k on Sunday June 14, 2020 @06:18AM (#23516506)
If you're relying on bug reports to find why a page is broken you're in for a bad time because 99% of the time the user isn't going to report anything. They're just going to think your page is broken and stop using it. Use a telemetry and error reporting service like Sentry or Rollbar. These services can strip sensitive data on the client before it gets logged.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by m90 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:00AM (#23516734)
Not every bug results in an error being thrown or any other signal that you could automatically detect. From my experience most of them are way more subtle.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by hrktb on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:11AM (#23516789)
While parent’s point is for devs, any kind of support situation falls into the same issues.

Grand-parents/friends/org users not being sure to be on the right site after a redesign, not seeing amazon in the right language, etc. There’s countless of questions that can be solved faster by looking at the URL.

Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by user5994461 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:24AM (#23516850)
Sentry only capture software exceptions. It doesn't tell you a page is rendering badly in the user's browser.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by onion2k on Sunday June 14, 2020 @08:54AM (#23517330)
You can send your own events to Sentry. It's not just for exceptions.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by toast0 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @04:25PM (#23521012)
How do you make an event for rending looks weird, or text is unreadable or ?
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by zbentley on Monday June 15, 2020 @07:56PM (#23534455)
Have a "report issue" button which leverages Sentry's (or your own, or some other service's) metadata collection and sends a report to you.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by tchaffee on Sunday June 14, 2020 @07:54AM (#23517020)
My QA team sends me URLs and screenshots sometimes. Often the first thing I look for on a screenshot is the URL.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by devcpp on Sunday June 14, 2020 @08:35AM (#23517233)
How can I tell you don't work in IT? Almost all companies including mine have ONE site to choose from to do any one thing. If it doesn't work, they either ask their colleagues (which only works if it's not the first time someone is using this around them) or create a ticket for IT.
Re:Google adds experimental setting to hide full URLs in Chr... by onion2k on Sunday June 14, 2020 @09:32AM (#23517524)
I've been a web developer for about 25 years. I can assure you if something doesn't work the users usually won't raise a ticket. They'll work around the problem. On the occasions when they do raise a ticket it'll usually contain minimal information. Having a telemetry system to correlate it against gives you some information to use to debug the problem. That's helpful.

Understanding that users have more important things to do than spend time on bug reports is an important lesson to learn. If you can gather data without relying on someone whose job is to worry about other things then you will make everyone's life easier.