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Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by burlesona on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:05PM (#23345156)
This is very cool to see. The main takeaways for me were:

1. It's easy to underestimate what is possible when you limit thinking to a short timescale. I think of the cathedrals, temples, mosques, etc. that have been built all over the world, where the people who started the work knew they wouldn't live to see it finished, but that didn't dissuade them.

Or conversely, it's easy to overestimate the difficulty of something if you are too constrained by thinking in terms of finishing it relatively quickly.

2. Building things does make it easier to build things - and conversely, not building things makes it harder. There is a lot of architectural stuff in our world today, particularly fine masonry and woodwork, that is still common because so much of it was made up through the 1930's or so, but which is actually quite difficult to produce today because most of the skilled labor and the industry that supported it is gone.

This also reminded me of an article about scientific glasswork, which is similarly dying out[1], and of course more familiar to the HN crowd we know about old technology that was once common and now is difficult to replicate or maintain.

Lots to think about.

1: https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassb...

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by est31 on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:32PM (#23345348)
There is a star trek episode where they encounter a civilization which has built a benevolent AI a long time ago and has since lost capabilities to do much more than give commands to the AI.

Our society has managed to write down some things like math for example so our knowledge as species won't be lost if mathematicians suddenly died. But it's harder to find permanent storage for the more skills based human activities like the woodworking you mention.

To give another example, the Saturn V rockets were built by a generation of metalworkers who had honed their skills in the manufacturing plants of world war 2. The plans for the rocket engines are still preserved but back then a plan was just a rough guideline. In the details, each single engine was hand-tailored to the individual rocket. Nowadays, stuff is far more automated and plans are highly precise. Thus Nasa couldn't just get the plans out of the cabinet and build new Saturn V rockets or even just put their engines into new rockets.

I wonder if we are better in preserving our heritage than we used to be. Which information about the manufacturing process of one of today's cars will be usable in 100 years? Will they be able to build computer chips like we did?

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by toomanybeersies on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:22AM (#23346231)
I don't know if NASA themselves could stick Saturn engines onto new rockets, but I reckon the Air Force probably could. Air force technicians are pretty good at fabricating and fitting parts from what I've seen.

Skills like hand fabrication and fitting aren't something that you can store. You can record videos or interview skilled tradesmen as much as you want, but the real skill is something that is learned through experience, it's muscle memory and intuition, not theoretical knowledge.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by weinzierl on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:41AM (#23346919)
I worked in aerospace during the transition from Ariane 4 to Ariane 5. The Ariane 4 was a versatile modular launch system and widely considered a successful project. The Ariane 5, on the other hand, was struggling at the time. A large part was because it originally was designed to be a launcher for the Hermes space plane. Hermes was never built, but the design decisions that were made because of it had many negative consequences for the Ariane 5. Most importantly it was not very economic for launching smaller satellites.

It was quite natural to think of enhancing the successful Ariane 4 design instead of building Ariane 5. From the conversations I remember from that time this was not considered a viable path - mostly because the supply chain of the Ariane 4 parts had already gone dry and it was not considered realistic to rebuild them.

For me as a young engineer this was very surprising, but a few years later I understood two things much better:

1. The knowledge to build projects of this scale is very distributed. There were subcontractors over subcontractors (spread over several countries) and every one had some tacit knowledge viable for the project.

2. Setup cost for parts production is relevant, even for the small series productions common in aerospace.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by LadyCailin on Saturday May 30, 2020 @06:30PM (#23365383)
While this is I’m sure true, the main point is about knowledge transfer. New people come onto the job, and they need to learn how to do it, and their skill level will always be basically zero. The question is, how do they learn how to do it, reading books or having a mentor watching over them? Certainly having a mentor will make that far easier, but if all the people who knew how to do it are now retired or especially dead, this isn’t possible, and so it becomes considerably more difficult for a new person to learn.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by mysterydip on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:20PM (#23345646)
With more information going to a cloud, and storage formats becoming obsolete faster, I wonder if we're actually better now. Certainly transitioning from hand-written and typewriter paper documents to digital has allowed for data to be copied easier than ever; however, I can still go to the library and read a book from 50 years ago or more. I can't do the same for digital data, at least not without specialized equipment and systems.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by karatestomp on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#23354801)
Hell, pulp paperbacks, probably the worst books for longevity, from 70 years ago are usually fine as long as they've only been gently read a low-single-digits number of times and haven't gotten wet/mildewy. They're often past yellowing and into browning at the edges, but they're fine for reading.

Hardcovers from the 19th century are pretty common. Tons of low-value ones (textbooks, fiction by at-the-time very popular authors who've been forgotten) floating around at a couple dollars a piece in flea markets here in the US, and I bet even older books are somewhat common in Europe. Lots by famous authors but of course those are usually more expensive. Most of those weren't finely-printed on modern archival paper or anything like that, and haven't been kept in archival conditions, but often have a few years of hard-reading life left in them (and much more well-shelved), so 150-200 years is a fairly easy age to achieve for gently-read hardbacks using cheap (but not the very cheapest) materials. Maybe more if you re-bind them once or twice, or they're very rarely read.

That's without even getting into really nice material and binding, or very expensive non-paper for the pages if you're very serious about keeping a book in good shape for centuries. Not even tape comes close—we don't have a really good archival format for digital stuff yet, let alone one that normal people may have a bunch of in their houses (like books). Maybe one of the several long-lived storage formats under development will take off one of these days and our digital storage will get a bit less risky. Right now it's pretty bad, only saved by being extremely cheap compared to other options.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by partyboat1586 on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:02AM (#23348169)
Lots of documents are going 'paperless' these days to save the trees. Given what I've witnessed working in tech I'm worried that many of those systems will be backed by a single server with no backups. We are lucky that many of our documents are stored in email which is a little more robust but still it's no stone tablet.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by rrmm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:05PM (#23345559)
I think you're correct about the importance of the context in which the expertise exists in.

But even so, I think it's clear that with more broad documentation, we are in a better position to pick up the expertise of the past.

So in the future, all the wonderful, nutty youtubers that keep alive old arts and give demos would be especially invaluable. Not just in clarifying specific techniques and knowledge, but by demonstrating a general approach to problems that existed at the current time.

I've been watching all sorts of things the past couple of months like this: People making vacuum tubes, repairing vacuum tube equipment, older mainframe technologies like ancient versions of MVS, machining parts on equipment from the '30's.

None of it is how-things-are-done in a cutting edge factory or step by step directions on how to reproduce an important cultural artifact, but from the perspective of future people, it will be a valuable aid to gathering that context.

One I'm particularly reminded of is Clickspring on youtube who is building an antikythera mechanism. Even though we have the partial artifact, so little is known concerning metal working technologies of the time that it seems to be an anachronism completely alien to its time of origin.

His approach is to explore what technologies would make sense to a working craftsman of any era (which also could be surmised to have existed in the era). It's interesting to watch and it has apparently born fruit in terms discovering academically important information about the device.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by GuiA on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:15PM (#23345620)
Totally agree with you, with the one caveat that Youtube is not operated with long term accessibility in mind. Videos routinely are removed by their creator, or get taken down for silly reasons. And one day Youtube will disappear as well.

Archive the channels you care about - they might otherwise be impossible to find in a few decades, or a few years. Youtube-dl is one of my favorite pieces of software.

Digital artefacts could be, paradoxically, less durable going in the future - if you write and publish a physical book, it might get forgotten in a library somewhere and rediscovered 200 years after you die.

If you publish an ebook on your website and die and no one cares, the probability of anyone discovering it by happenstance 200 years later goes down to 0.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by rrmm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:23PM (#23345673)
This is a very unsolved problem. It doesn't take much foresight to anticipate a Library of Alexandria v2.0 around the corner.

Certainly, we can and should individually archive what's important to us, but more generally (archiving information for the next 1000 years say), I dunno. I hope someone will figure it out.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by masnao on Thursday May 28, 2020 @11:00PM (#23345858)
"there was a library in the distant past that held the entirety of human knowledge. but all was lost when the ancient people who built it lost their 3rd-party cookie trade route to the European invaders"
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by FartyMcFarter on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:14AM (#23348605)
> If you publish an ebook on your website and die and no one cares, the probability of anyone discovering it by happenstance 200 years later goes down to 0.

This seems overly pessimistic given the existence of archive.org (they accept donations!).

If archival institutions keep existing and improving their search and accessibility, it seems very possible that random websites will be accessible for a long time to come; 200 years is definitely within the realm of feasibility.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by Mirioron on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:50AM (#23347768)
This is an example of institutional knowledge. It's part of the reason why you want to have some military production even if you have enough gear already. You might need people with this kind of expertise in the future.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by new2628 on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:07AM (#23348565)
Even with math, there is much more "unwritten shared knowledge" than usually assumed. The corpus of current mathematics lives much more in the shared understanding of mathematicians than in the pages of articles. Math fields may indeed be lost if they are not actively practiced. There was a beautiful essay on this by Bill Thurston, that I don't have handy at the moment, but should be easy to find.

[EDIT:] maybe this: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/43690/whats-a-mathematici...

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by soperj on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:42PM (#23345419)
Sometimes writing it down means very little. Like Perelman's Poincaré conjecture solution. It took some of the best mathematicians years to even prove it being correct.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by blackrock on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:02PM (#23345532)
Didn’t the Egyptians write it down? But we still have no idea how to understand their hieroglyphics. Or how they even figured out their math.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by rrmm on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:25PM (#23345686)
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by bingerman on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:24AM (#23348678)
I don't think they proved the correctness, just read it very thoroughly and were convinced by Perelman's reasoning.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by mjshashank on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:19PM (#23345640)
A relevant talk by Jonathan Blow: https://youtu.be/ZSRHeXYDLko
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by masnao on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:54PM (#23345831)
there's also john titor, the early internet small celebrity that traveled back in time because the future society run on some old obscure 8bit computer and they run out of parts
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by kleiba on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:30AM (#23348709)
Which episode is that?
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by rantwasp on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:42PM (#23345420)
enter Space X: hold my beer
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by necubi on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:32AM (#23346280)
This is echoed in a fascinating r/AskHistorians comment I read recently [0]. The question was about how the Romans forgot how to make concrete in the late empire. I highly recommend reading the whole thing, but the gist is: as the empire became poorer, demand for huge building projects (typically funded by the state) declined. Eventually, after a couple hundreds years, the tradition was lost entirely.

Losing knowledge like this was much easier in earlier eras when fewer people were literate. Trade knowledge would be passed down via apprenticeships and rarely written down. So it only takes one generation of the apprenticeship system breaking down for the knowledge to be lost entirely.

(Also, for anybody unfamiliar with r/AskHistorians, it's one of the best corners of the internet! Professional historians provide in-depth answers to random questions about history.)

[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gntlr8/how_d...

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by ssivark on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:43AM (#23346330)
> Losing knowledge like this was much easier in earlier eras when fewer people were literate.

The thing is, there are many aspects to doing things which can’t be written down. So even today, the one generation concept is meaningful. There is a deep “use it or lose it” spirit in biological systems. We might think of ourselves in primarily literate/rational terms, but that’s far from the truth.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by Mirioron on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:52AM (#23347781)
Nowadays we have video which can cover a large part of things that can't be written down. It doesn't cover all of it though, but it can get pretty close.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by nullc on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:30AM (#23347994)
If you can manage to preserve access to the video.

"Sorry, we lost all knowledge of how to build those during the great content-id wars of 2029."

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by Mirioron on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:11PM (#23351765)
Oh, that is entirely possible! Even worse is that in the future there's a chance video encoding will become complex enough that it'll be difficult to reverse engineer. If the algorithms get lost to time then even if you have the video itself it's meaningless.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by pvg on Friday May 29, 2020 @12:58AM (#23346410)
I think of the cathedrals, temples, mosques, etc. that have been built all over the world, where the people who started the work knew they wouldn't live to see it finished, but that didn't dissuade them.

I wonder whether that's not really more the exception rather than the rule - some famous cathedrals just took a long time. But lots of huge projects were completed in one or two decades or less - the pyramids, the Coliseum, the Taj Mahal, the Pantheon, Hagia Sophia, etc.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by Aeolun on Friday May 29, 2020 @03:31AM (#23347197)
Kind of makes sense, since the person that commissions these things generally wants to see them completed in their lifetime.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by downerending on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:47PM (#23345448)
Not the same kind of scientific glasswork, but there were a couple (?) of guys at Harvard that produced a large number of educational models of various biological things, using glass. Worth visiting if you ever go there.

https://hmnh.harvard.edu/glass-flowers

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by mehrdadn on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:24PM (#23345286)
> I think of the cathedrals, temples, mosques, etc. that have been built all over the world, where the people who started the work knew they wouldn't live to see it finished, but that didn't dissuade them.

That's mind-boggling. Why would building a cathedral/mosque/temple take longer than a lifetime (or half)?

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by obastani on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:27PM (#23345314)
Not an answer to your question, but the Sagrada Famila [1] began construction in 1882, and is projected to be completed around 2030. It's an immense (and beautiful) structure. Just want to point out that it's not just a matter of the buildings being built a long time ago; this kind of long-term construction is still happening today.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by hinkley on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:39PM (#23345756)
That said, Christopher Wren was in high demand for designing churches after the Great Fire, So he made a deal: I will design you a church but no steeple (yet). Once the backlog of churches cleared he designed the steeples, and some churches had a 20 year gap.

Even pre-industrial London could crank out enough churches in a dozen years to keep a celebrated architect booked solid. But that’s an exceedingly dense urban era, capable of supporting a large array of skilled labor.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by mehrdadn on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:30PM (#23345333)
I... just can't wrap my head around this. Is it that they actually take that long with enough people, or they have too few people working on them?
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by readams on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:38PM (#23345392)
They're specifically using old-style techniques to build it, and doing a sort of fund-as-you-go structure where donations finance the construction. This is combined with the fact that the building is really complicated and every block has to be custom-carved into a unique shape.

There's also likely an element of not really wanting it to be done since the construction itself is a big part of the draw of the building for tourism.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by close04 on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:44AM (#23349281)
And yet the author of the present article would simply judge it by weight and say "with certainty" it must have taken only a fraction of the time.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by ALittleLight on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:16PM (#23345624)
I hadn't heard of it, it seen pictures, until we went to see it in Spain. The building is absolutely mind boggling. The sort of thing that makes you proud to be a human.

When you see it, the timeline starts to make sense.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by teruakohatu on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:38PM (#23345395)
Funding but also they are to an extent a giant work of art, adding more people does not produce a better work of art.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by goto11 on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:08AM (#23347490)
Funding has been the limiting factor, as far as I know. There have been long breaks where no work was being done, and it was damaged during the civil war. Also the building is immense and very detailed.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by ReptileMan on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:51AM (#23348848)
The fact that Gaudi's original plans were lost in a fire don't help
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by goto11 on Friday May 29, 2020 @02:04AM (#23346716)
Some cathedrals took centuries to complete, but mostly because of long gaps in active work due to lack of funds or interest.

Furthermore cathedrals were often build iteratively - e.g. someone finances a new tower to add to an existing centuries old building.

Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by fouc on Thursday May 28, 2020 @10:10PM (#23345581)
You might enjoy Ken Follet's novel "The Pillars of the Earth", it touches on the notion of spending a lifetime to build a cathedral.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:26PM (#23345305)
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by mehrdadn on Thursday May 28, 2020 @09:32PM (#23345345)
Ah, thanks for the pointer! I just Googled and got this explanation: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-it-take-nearly-200-years-to-bu...
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by watwut on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:07AM (#23348968)
You run out of money, wars happen, corruption happen, things get finished later.
Re:How many people did it take to build the Great Pyramid? by smabie on Thursday May 28, 2020 @11:32PM (#23346019)
I mean, look at Petra. Some of that stuff must have taken centuries.