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Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by albmoriconi on Friday April 24, 2020 @08:44AM (#22967346)
I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places. As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure "favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;)

The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Agerola is slightly drier than Mozzarella, therefore producing less liquid in the oven, and also costs less), and I find that pizza done according to the Neapolitan recipe loses much when using a different kind of cheese.

A pet peeve of mine is that many recipes, while getting most of it right, use instant yeast; an important part of Neapolitan pizza is the slow dough rise using very little amounts of yeast, that should take from a minimum of 7/8 hours to an entire day or more (of course by storing it in a fridge).

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by cmain on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:11AM (#22967563)
A good place to source the cheeses in the US is Caputo Brothers in Pennsylvania. They are one of the few places in the US doing cultured mozzarella and also have a lower moisture version for pizza.

https://caputobrotherscreamery.com/collections/cheeses

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dangerboysteve on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:29AM (#22968293)
I use packed dry yeast but I have always let my dough do a slow rise in the refrigerator for a minimum of 3 days up to 6 days. I use 00 flour and cook the pizza's using my Roccbox pizza oven or a custom Baking Steel 23x19 3/8" steel in the oven.

Also if you want a good guide for NY style pizza then this is a good read.

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by devchix on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:02PM (#22971746)
He hacks his home oven to use the self-cleaning cycle to bake at 800°F. :blink: I'm not comfortable doing that. I rarely crank mine to 500°F, when I do there's quite a bit of smoke that has to be vent.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by bluedino on Friday April 24, 2020 @07:25PM (#22974037)
If your oven is clean (and it will be after running it at 800 a few times) the smoke will stop
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by gunshai on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:15PM (#22971849)
Think about accidentally dripping room temperature liquid on to the oven window during the process....
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by heelix on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:56PM (#22974897)
We like doing pizzas on our grill, which can get to 500F+ easy enough. A cheap pizza stone works really well on there and has a bonus of not heating up the house in the summer.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by OJFord on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:38AM (#22977634)
> on our grill

What is this, that it's 'on'? In the UK a grill is the hot element you put something under, in the oven. 'Broiler' in America I believe. I realise you're not in the UK ('500F'), but what then is this grill, that's clearly not the same?

> not heating up the house

An outdoor covered barbecue/smoker/pizza oven type thing?

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by heelix on Saturday April 25, 2020 @11:11AM (#22978695)
Yup, you got me. (US) The temp gauge on our outdoor grill is in Fahrenheit, so ~260C for the rest of the world. When I say grill, I'm talking a propane based patio cooking surface, with lid. One of these sorts of things:

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Outdoor-Cooking-Grills/...

The oven has the classic broiler, like you.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by phonypc on Saturday April 25, 2020 @11:12AM (#22978697)
Probably equivalent to what you'd call a barbecue. Charcoal or gas fed, bottom heating, usually with a grated surface and outdoors. Though with proper ventilation you can use them indoors.

Some Americans will call it a barbecue too, but barbecue should really be equivalent to smoker.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by cmain on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:14AM (#22967592)
Another thing to note is that since a lot of Neapolitan pizza makers conduct the entire fermentation at room temp, salt percentages are important and can change throughout the year with ambient temps.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by oggy on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:49PM (#22973756)
Sorbillo's is the best I've tried. I remember walking in front of the shop a few times and thinking it's some kind of tourist trap (it's on the possibly most touristy street in the city), but decided to try it out in the end. Absolutely fantastic. The pie was great, but TBH I think there were other places in town whose pies were as good, but the quality of the toppings... just wow. And I was surprised that the price was the same as any other place in town (I think a marinara was something like 3-4 Euros).

My second favorite is in Switzerland of all places, in the small town of Meilen. Amazing toppings too. But I went there once since the start of the lockdowns, and it didn't taste as good. I don't know if it's the pandemic leaving a bitter taste, or just an issue for their supply chains...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Friday April 24, 2020 @07:46PM (#22974191)
Switzerland is next door to Italy and there's a significant Italian minority, so you can generally find pretty good Italian food if you look.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by Ididntdothis on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:29PM (#22974786)
Same in Germany. A lot of pizza places are run by actual Italians.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by misiti3780 on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:00AM (#22968011)
Ciao, Come siete ?

I'm not sure if you have ever been to NYC but an interesting observation I have had with Gino Sorbillo is the pizza in Napoli is very good, but he/they opened a restaurant in NYC and it's absolutely average at best.

I assume they import everything, but quality wise, the places are polar opposites.

Also curious your thoughts of Da Michele?

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by yomly on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:10AM (#22968102)
I recently went to Naples and IMO the secret to just how amazing everything tastes there is the quality of produce. I don't know whether you can even export it - I don't know whether that kind of quality travels.

On the Netflix show ugly delicious one of the chefs explain supposedly in Naples chefs will choose their mozzarella freshness by the hour (e.g. 6 hours or 12 hours) but to make "authentic" Neapolitan pizza with Neapolitan mozzarella you're not going to get Mozzarella fresher than 7 days old...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by davidw on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:26AM (#22968991)
> I recently went to Naples and IMO the secret to just how amazing everything tastes there is the quality of produce. I don't know whether you can even export it - I don't know whether that kind of quality travels.

Bingo. Produce and ingredients are generally very high quality in Italy, because people care about and make their purchases based on that, rather than simply looking at how much they're getting at a given price and how good it looks on the shelves.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by misiti3780 on Friday April 24, 2020 @12:19PM (#22969738)
yes -- but on the same show they highlighted people making ridiculous high quality fresh naples-style pizza in other countries other than italy - japan, denmark, etc.

the cheese is the hardest part of the pizza to replicate outside of italy for sure, you can easily buy high quality imported olive oil, flour, and san marzano tomatos.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by yomly on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:23PM (#22971371)
yeah the guy from Denmark resorted to making his own mozzarella by rearing his own cows - hence the point about exporting.

Japan have decent local dairy (Hokkaido milk) and their overall attitude to produce is similar to Italy which probably is a big contributor to their food culture

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by golover721 on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:26PM (#22972560)
I don't know, I think the tomatoes you find in Italy are far superior to anything I have found in the US. I still dream of the bruschetta in Tuscany.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by chrisbennet on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:23AM (#22977564)
I think grocery store tomatoes are "optimized" for being shipped, not taste.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by TeMPOraL on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:20PM (#22971332)
Given the stories I hear from pretty much everyone in my circle who's been to the US, there's a general problem with food there tasting bland, in comparison to Europe. Like others, I suspect the ingredients in the States are worse for some reason (perhaps they've been optimized too much for shelf life).
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by bsder on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:19PM (#22973508)
Send them to Santa Fe.

Bland will NOT be your problem.

However, you have to understand that a lot of the US really doesn't deal well with food that isn't bland--a holdover from WWII rationing and canned foods, probably. IIRC, McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to attempt to add an ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding cucumber was fine, but avocado was a step too far for the midwest.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by TeMPOraL on Saturday April 25, 2020 @03:06AM (#22976278)
> McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to attempt to add an ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding cucumber was fine, but avocado was a step too far for the midwest.

That's something I'd love to read in more details about. Personally, I'd say avocado is a step too far in anything that isn't fruit salad. But so is (pickled) cucumber. I wish they'd remove it from their burgers altogether. The reasoning is, pickled cucumber overwhelms everything else with its sour flavor. McD burgers I experienced (in several countries, Europe and Asia) have a balanced composition of tastes, and that slice of cucumber there is as if someone threw a grenade into it. I usually hunt it down and eat it with my first bite, so that I can enjoy the rest of the burger in peace.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by whycombagator on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:38PM (#22971524)
> Given the stories I hear from pretty much everyone in my circle who's been to the US, there's a general problem with food there tasting bland, in comparison to Europe

I think that heavily depends on where your circle is eating at in both places.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by voldacar on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:21PM (#22974996)
>perhaps they've been optimized too much for shelf life

this has definitely happened to tomatoes. Supermarket tomatoes vs heirloom varieties are night and day

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tigershark on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:39PM (#22973201)
Not sure in NY, there I tried only ovest and a couple of others so I can’t really judge. In London I tried all the famous ones: Da Michele, 50 Kalò, Sartori, Santa Maria, Santorè, Franco Manca and probably many others that I don’t remember now. Da Michele I think is a bit overrated. In 50 Kalò I appreciated a lot the extremely fresh and flavourful ingredients but the pizza dough was not the best. Santa Maria, at least the original in Ealing Broadway, is probably more tasty and balanced compared to the others above. Franco Manca has a pretty good price/quality ratio, but it’s not as good as the previous ones. As a matter of personal preference Sartori is the best that I tried in London, just a sliver above all the very nice ones cited before, and also a bit better than his “twin” place Santorè. I’d like to go back to Napoli and try Sorbillo’s pizza there. In my place in Italy I can’t find a pizza as good as London, for what is worth...
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by airstrike on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:00AM (#22968678)
Try Pizzarte and Naples 45 in Midtown

And for a different type of pizza but honestly my favorite pizza on Earth, try the Portobello pizza at Mediterraneo on the UES. They have no idea how good that pizza is otherwise they'd turn the whole place into a pizzeria and just do that everyday

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tigershark on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:51PM (#22973293)
Ah right, pizzarte was another one that I tried in NY, almost forgot. It’s really good, but still not at the level at the best that I tried in London or in Italy in my opinion.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by bearzoo on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:14PM (#22971271)
in NYC una is the best i've found. it easily competes with the best in naples (in my opinion)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by tigershark on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:53PM (#22973313)
Thanks for the tip, I’m going to check after coronavirus.. if we still survive.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by airstrike on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:10PM (#22971805)
Thanks! First time I hear the name, so will definitely check it out next time I'm in the area (probably 2021 by the looks of things!)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by misiti3780 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:47AM (#22987948)
i second this, una pizza is delicious, but you can find a slightly better pizza at song e napoli on west houston

https://songenapule.nyc/

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by pachico on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:42PM (#22973226)
"come state" :)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by misiti3780 on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:47AM (#22987956)
opps, grazie
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by slow_donkey on Friday April 24, 2020 @08:59AM (#22967455)
Why would instant yeast have an effect on slow rising? You'd just use a smaller amount than AD or cake yeast? I can't think of any significant difference especially compared to AD.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by albmoriconi on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:05AM (#22967506)
It seems that I wrongly thought that "instant yeast" was what we call "lievito istantaneo", i.e. baking powder, that would give a a pretty different end-product.

It looks like it can also refer to instant active yeast, i.e. dehydrated beer yeast, that should actually be fine as far as I can tell (I have no idea of exact proportions however).

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by chrisgarand on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:18AM (#22967619)
Officially, I understood you couldn't use dry yeast, that has changed it seems: https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana

That being said, you can probably use a smaller amount of instant yeast, it definitely shouldn't be replaced as a 1:1 with regular yeast as the fermentation time is an integral part of the flavour profile.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by Arnt on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:09PM (#22971225)
Dehydrated yeast will work, but getting the amounts right is more difficult in my experience. I can cut a paper-thin sliver from a yeast cube easier than than I can count the right number of grains of dehydrated yeast.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by ggsp on Friday April 24, 2020 @02:25PM (#22971395)
Grams are a thing ;)
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by systemvoltage on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:50PM (#22972201)
Most people have a hard time measuring 0.02% baking percentage of 200g flour. Not because they don't know what grams is, but because they don't have the equipment or means to measure it.

Everytime I hear someone say things about units, it is not that people don't understand - there are other issues around that. For example, Americans know that metric system is better but they can't just switch solo until the entire nation changes which is a huge task.

Furthermore, those people who gawk at Americans still use 360 degrees for a full circle, 24 hour segments in a day and other weird units - for e.g. Switzerland still uses points for fonts! Not mm.

I would go ahead and even say - Metric system is based on base 10 which sucks, we should rewind back the history and grow 12 fingers because Duodecimal system is far better than decimal system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal

We are just stuck with base 10. Just like Americans are stuck with their archaic units. It has nothing to do with the fact that people are smart/dumb. I am gonna push back on that nonsense.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by perl4ever on Sunday April 26, 2020 @01:10AM (#22984654)
In my opinion, the only way to cook/bake is with a digital scale, and as far as I know, any scale you'd buy in the US has the option of grams or ounces at the push of a button.

In practice, I constantly use both. To some extent it depends on the packaging of the ingredients, which may use either unit.

When measuring small things, it's only practical to use teaspoons and fractions, but otherwise I weigh everything. I even tend to weigh liquids in dry ounces sometimes, as I've memorized 8 fluid ounces = 8.337 dry ounces.

Using different measuring systems is no more of a mark of inferiority than using different languages. And similarly to languages, modern technology makes it fairly easy to translate even if you don't know.

It is definitely a misconception that you don't see metric measurements in the US. They're everywhere, including your car, school, stores...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by Arnt on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:42AM (#22987469)
For this sort of dough you may need e.g. 1.8g of yeast (that's the actual quantity I used for the last dough I made). It depends on how much flour you make, of course, but pizza doughs with long fermentation use minute amounts of yeast. If you use 1.6g or 2.0g instead of 1.8g, your pizza may be ready twelve hours too soon or too late.

I bought a second kitchen scale to deal with the minute quantities, since my old one is accurate to only 1g.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by perl4ever on Monday April 27, 2020 @12:14PM (#22997198)
"your pizza may be ready twelve hours too soon or too late"

It's one of those pitfalls, kind of like having your tire pressure off by 1.5 psi* at a cars and coffee...

*https://jalopnik.com/how-not-to-explain-why-you-crashed-your...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by colinjoy on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:48PM (#22972761)
> for e.g. Switzerland still uses points for fonts! Not mm.

Anybody who deals with typography in any professional capacity does so. It is the normal, not some obscure Swiss habit.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by systemvoltage on Friday April 24, 2020 @05:50PM (#22973291)
That's my point that supports "America is the only country in the world that still doesn't use metric units." - well, they tried. Many times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Stat...

It is sometimes hard to get rid of 100+ years of history, in the case of typography thats probably longer.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by perl4ever on Sunday April 26, 2020 @01:01AM (#22984602)
As far as I know, beer yeast is different from bread yeast these days. Instant yeast for baking is said to be dried using a process that is gentler and kills fewer cells.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by seanhunter on Friday April 24, 2020 @09:40AM (#22967803)
Instant yeast tends to be very aggressive/successful so what happens if you use a small amount of instant yeast is you get a slow rise but it's a monoculture microbially speaking versus if you use a typical sourdough starter (called "madre" in Italian baking) there are several strains of bacteria which are about equivalent in terms of how fast they multiply. So the final dough has a more diverse microbiome. The theory is that leads to a more complex taste because of the way the different yeast strains digest the sugars etc and affect the taste of the resulting product.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by slow_donkey on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:55AM (#22968598)
Definitely agree in regards to sourdough starter vs yeast. Although I thought most Neapolitan pizzerias didn't use sourdough anyways - would love to be wrong about this.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by sk5t on Friday April 24, 2020 @03:04PM (#22971755)
It's called the same thing ("mother") in English, across uses in sourdough starter, kombucha, balsamic vinegar...
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by earth_walker on Sunday April 26, 2020 @02:50PM (#22989216)
Those ratios looked off to me so I tried it out today.

Now, the amount of moisture a flour will absorb depends on many things, including its age, source and your climate. I'm in an arid region of Canada, and our flours are typically harder than most. Having said that, I'm lucky enough to have access to relatively fresh, locally milled flour.

So as I said, this moisture ratio looked off to me compared to what I usually bake with.

At 300 ml of water, I didn't even get a dough that would combine. I added about a tablespoon and a half of extra water, and still got a much firmer dough than I would usually want. After resting for 20 minutes, folding it left creases as it wouldn't stick to itself.

I've got it rising now, so we'll see if it still turns out, but if you're trying this with typical American store-bought 0 or 1 flour, I would recommend starting with 5-10% more water and adding flour if necessary once it's combined.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by blaser-waffle on Monday April 27, 2020 @09:32AM (#22995646)
> an important part of Neapolitan pizza is the slow dough rise using very little amounts of yeast, that should take from a minimum of 7/8 hours to an entire day or more (of course by storing it in a fridge).

This is gospel for pizza. My wife used to run a NYC-style pizza place in college, and later a chain pizza place, and they both had 24-72 hour slow proofs in the fridge. In other words, they mixed the dough and let it rise, very slowly, in the fridge for 2-3 days before using it. Kenji Lopez-Alt has similar advice in his pizza articles.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by JessCav84 on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:15AM (#22968158)
Isn't the oven one of the keys? And how true is that 'leopard spots' on the cornicione is a sign of a well made pizza?
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by albmoriconi on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:57AM (#22968630)
It is, because it has to deliver heat from the bottom at high temperature and for a pretty short time (around two minutes); it's not that unusual in Naples to have a wood oven in our vacation homes, but in the city many live in condos so it's impossible.

Leopard spots, also called "maculatura" or "mako" in some pizza-lovers forums, is considered by some a mark of perfect maturation of the "panetto" (the little bread, i.e. the dough used for a single pizza); to be honest it's quite a mystery to me how to obtain a good one, and as it often happens in this matters reality tends to conflate with legend: I've also heard sometimes that it is a sign of temperature mismanagement of the panetto, and I am not experienced enough to have a say on this :)

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by elhudy on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:27AM (#22968997)
Are they ever made using sourdough (wild yeast)? I imagine that would be more "traditional"?
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dredmorbius on Friday April 24, 2020 @07:16PM (#22973970)
I've been doing this using my recently-begun starter, to excellent results.

I don't especially care whether or not my results would ore wouldn't pass Neaopolitan milspec.

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by mhkhung on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:34AM (#22969096)
Would not considered Neapolitian. There are some 'higher-end' pizza places there that don't follow the 'tradition as dictated by committee'.

https://www.eater.com/2018/2/23/17025722/ugly-delicious-pizz...

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by fenwick67 on Friday April 24, 2020 @06:24PM (#22973549)
Mozzarella is surprisingly easy to make at home in less than an hour.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by dredmorbius on Friday April 24, 2020 @07:11PM (#22973932)
Mozarella from powdered milk:

https://invidio.us/watch?v=hVDDLEF0vTU

Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by loriverkutya on Friday April 24, 2020 @07:02PM (#22973861)
Where you get the water buffalo milk from?
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by patrickthebold on Friday April 24, 2020 @10:20PM (#22974989)
Water buffalos.
Re:How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master by basch on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:36PM (#22970809)
How do you feel about Neapolitan vs Montanara?