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Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by nullc on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:29PM (#22755389)
It's sad that Nintendo doesn't seem to see this as an opportunity to earn free press and goodwill by simply releasing all the design documents, mask images, etc.

The community is going to get there eventually without their help, but they could probably make it much faster and cheaper to get there.

Doubly so because they sell products which almost certainly benefit from these open source emulation efforts.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by kingbirdy on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:31PM (#22755404)
Nintendo is still actively selling SNES games via Nintendo Switch Online, and as far as I know rolls their own emulator(s) for this rather than using existing open source ones as Sony did for the PS Classic, so I doubt this will happen any time soon.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by scrooched_moose on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:43PM (#22755483)
Tangentially related, there's some evidence the ROMs Nintendo was selling a couple years ago were ones they downloaded. Not bulletproof, but more likely than not.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-d...

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by aikinai on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:07PM (#22755612)
I can almost guarantee Nintendo did not use a downloaded ROM. I don’t have direct experience with how the ROMs are sourced, so it’s not 100%, but I worked on a team handling emulation at Nintendo and can say the processes are incredibly careful and strict.

The company is extremely micromanaged and pedantic, and this is not the kind of thing that could possibly be overlooked at Nintendo.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by monocasa on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:13PM (#22755636)
It's just weird then that they put a header originally defined by pirates, and now otherwise only used by third party emulators. Including matching the even more informal parts of the header byte for byte with the most common dump of the ROM on the high seas.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by thristian on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:19AM (#22756156)
> ...a header originally defined by pirates...

Specifically, the "iNES header", originally created by Marat Fayzullin for use with his NES emulator, iNES[1].

If you look at the iNES manual[2], way down at the bottom in the changelog for version 0.7, you can see "Sound support completely rewritten, thanks to Kawase Tomohiro".

If you search the Internet for Kawase Tomohiro, you'll find[3] somebody by that name seems to work for Nintendo as a programmer, and in particular worked on the NES emulator used in 2001's Animal Crossing.

Of course, that's not conclusive evidence, but given the competing claims "Nintendo, a notoriously uptight company, has been downloading pirate ROMs to sell" versus "Nintendo hired a pioneer of NES emulation to work on their emulators, who kept using the tools and formats he was used to", I feel like one is more likely to be true and the other is more likely to get ad impressions.

[1]: https://fms.komkon.org/iNES/

[2]: https://fms.komkon.org/iNES/iNES.html

[3]: https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Tomohiro_Kawase

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by zzo38computer on Thursday April 02, 2020 @02:59AM (#22756836)
It isn't wrong for Nintendo to use the same file format as other emulators, although it is hypocritical. (But including such improper stuff as "DiskDude" (which the emulator doesn't even use, and doesn't properly belong in the header anyways) is a bit wrong, and is even more hypocritical.)
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by derefr on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:11PM (#22755910)
I mean, you'd want to use a file format that would allow you to cross-test your emulator's behavior on the same ROM files against existing emulators' behavior on those ROM files. So you'd format your ROMs (which you dumped yourself) the way that existing emulators would expect them to be formatted.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by monocasa on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:48PM (#22756037)
Sorry, I was being a bit coy when I said the "more informal parts of the header". It literally still has the dumper's signature in the unused portion of the header. Traceability as to who gets props for the first good dump drives a lot of decisions in that scene.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by hcs on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:27AM (#22756192)
Could you be more specific? I've heard this mentioned before but not seen an example. Something like one of those Diskdude! strings? What game?
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by NobodyNada on Thursday April 02, 2020 @01:58PM (#22761705)
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/INES#Flags_10:

> Older versions of the iNES emulator ignored bytes 7-15, and several ROM management tools wrote messages in there. Commonly, these will be filled with "DiskDude!", which results in 64 being added to the mapper number.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by hcs on Thursday April 02, 2020 @04:20PM (#22763268)
That would surely be a giveaway, but I haven't seen any evidence that tagged headers like this were actually used in official Nintendo releases.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by deelowe on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:21PM (#22755667)
What other explanation would there be for those headers? They serve no purpose otherwise.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by jcranmer on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:06PM (#22755894)
The other explanation is that they're using an open-source emulator (or some derivative thereof) in their product, so the iNES header would be the expected format to convey the necessary information.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by bitwize on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:11PM (#22755628)
It's commonplace for original arcade and console game manufacturers to download ROMs from a ROM site and then send a C&D to that same site ordering it shut down. The company owns the rights to the ROM in the first place, and thus are the only party legally entitled to download it. Sure beats the cost of dumping it from an old cartridge themselves. (And no, for old video games there's no source repository. The original sources may be lost.)
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by monocasa on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:14PM (#22755639)
Lol, well they don't own the copyright of the header added by the original dumper in that case.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by Polylactic_acid on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:19PM (#22755659)
The header likely does not contain enough creative content to even be covered by copyright.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by metaphor on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:35PM (#22755990)
Seriously[1]? This supposed lack of "creative content" has become the de facto standard in the domain.

[1] https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/INES

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by Polylactic_acid on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:24AM (#22756176)
Thats 16 bytes of data, not nearly enough to be covered by copyright. Its not about how important it is. Like how a single line slogan isn't copyrightable even if its unique and clever, they can be covered by trademarks however. I doubt a 16 byte header could be covered by trademarks either.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by wyldfire on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:53AM (#22756310)
> Thats 16 bytes of data, not nearly enough to be covered by copyright

Gee. Maybe they should've put it in the form of a haiku? :)

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by fox8091 on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:54AM (#22756312)
"16 bytes of data" is also the size of an AES-256 key, which is apparently able to be copyrighted.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by segfaultbuserr on Thursday April 02, 2020 @08:16AM (#22758165)
This is nonsense. An encryption key can never be copyrighted, it's only illegal to redistribute it because it's a circumvention device under the DMCA, and possibly illegal under the CFAA, not because it's copyrighted.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by zerocrates on Thursday April 02, 2020 @01:12AM (#22756396)
What's your source on that? Doesn't seem likely to me.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by dehrmann on Thursday April 02, 2020 @02:09AM (#22756642)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controvers...

I wish people would point that out more often when there's discussion around backdooring systems to allow for government surveillance. With how quickly keys got out for HDDVD and Blu-ray, there's no reason to thing something similar wouldn't happen with a government backdoor, and that's if it's not for sale on the dark web before it goes public.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by brazzy on Thursday April 02, 2020 @04:51AM (#22757252)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controvers...

Actually refutes your claim that an AES key can itself be covered by copyright.

The given reason to attempt to have it removed was not that copying the key itself violates copyright, but that it was used to circumvent copyright-protection mechanisms.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by serf on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:40PM (#22755781)
yeah, but it gives the opportunity for the parent company of the source material to redistribute something without meaning to.

header-bourne SNES malware? Probably not, but one can dream.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by CobrastanJorji on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:44PM (#22760883)
Random anecdote. For Turner's GameTap, a sort of subscription-based library of games for many different platforms from around 15 years ago, they absolutely were using downloaded ROMs. Worse, they were unable to find clean ROMs for several games, and several of the versions that were used had Demoscene cracktros added in. They got around the problem by just playing through the cracktro, saving the state, and loading that state when a player loaded the game.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by nullc on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:24PM (#22755957)
The level of perfection being sought in this article is essentially irrelevant to competition with emulators + illicit copying.

The existing emulators are more than good enough to be replacements to the commercial offerings (and in most cases, a lot better... e.g. the lookahead rendering).

While what you suggest might be a factor in their actions, I don't think it's an especially good one.

As far as rolling their own emulators, I don't doubt that they do. But I do doubt that they're doing so without researching the existing open source emulators.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by 0x00000000 on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:39PM (#22755458)
> using existing open source ones as Sony did for the PS Classic

That’s interesting, I wonder if that is the case the for the PS1 emulator on the PS3/Vita used for the PlayStation Classics titles

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by rossy on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:49PM (#22755511)
I think that's a proprietary in-house emulator known as POPS. The fact that Sony already had an in-house PlayStation emulator for the ARM-based Vita makes their decision to use something else for the PS Classic a bit strange.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by monocasa on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:11PM (#22755626)
I imagine some third party approached Sony with a "we'll do the work, take the risk, etc. You just give your blessing, tell us who do we need to contact for final approval to make sure the brand is being well represented, and where to send the royalty checks" kind of deal.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by danhor on Thursday April 02, 2020 @07:50AM (#22758041)
Whilst the vita was an arm based system, it also included almost all of the psp hardware for backwards compatability.

They simply reused pops from the psp, with no major changes, so it still ran on a mips system.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by LeonidasXIV on Thursday April 02, 2020 @11:41AM (#22760218)
This is also how the PSP runs PS1 games - by essentially being a PS1 and loading the game data from UMD or Memorystick.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by 87zuhjkas on Thursday April 02, 2020 @08:51AM (#22758349)
"Nintendo ... rolls their own emulator(s) ... rather than using existing open source ones"

Wouldn't it be possible to reverse engineer these emulators? Maybe the official Nintendo SNES emulator has all the right S-PPU1/2 values in it.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by LocalH on Thursday April 02, 2020 @01:21PM (#22761295)
Doubtful. Byuu’s emulator is already much more accurate than Nintendo’s own.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by overcast on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @09:59PM (#22755571)
What's sad is they don't just release the entire SNES/NES library for people who buy into their Nintendo online service. It's shameful how they've treated people who have bought and rebought into previous iterations only to have their libraries wiped out with new hardware generations. I'm looking at you virtual console.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by matheusmoreira on Thursday April 02, 2020 @12:57AM (#22756328)
What's truly shameful is the fact these 30+ year old games are still protected by copyright. Nintendo and all the third party developers have already made their money many times over. It's time for these works to enter the public domain.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by imtringued on Thursday April 02, 2020 @05:02AM (#22757305)
I personally dislike the fact that copyright is tied to the person rather than the release year. It results in a lot of ugly compromises in copyright. The idea behind authors life + 70 years is that you don't want to discourage old people but if copyright was based on the release date none of this would matter.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by matheusmoreira on Thursday April 02, 2020 @05:32AM (#22757439)
70 years is way too much. It should be something like 10 years. The idea is to give creators appropriate reward and then release works into the public domain. 10 years is more than enough time to make a fortune off of one's creations. They should have to invent new stuff if they want more money.

What happens today is creators want to strike gold once and then enjoy a lifetime of royalties for themselves and their children. When was the last time something entered the public domain? Probably in the early 20th century. Public domain might as well be a forgotten footnote of history. There's no reason for the public to recognize copyright as legitimate when it's being systematically robbed of its rights.

What if the copyright is owned by a company? I don't know. Do they have to go bankrupt for the 70 year count to start? In any case, they'll probably just lobby for even more extensions before their terms run out anyway.

Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by rhinoceraptor on Thursday April 02, 2020 @02:04AM (#22756620)
Also, none of these companies would even be able to sell old games if it weren't for amazing developers writing the emulators (and people playing pirated games on them). All these games would be lost forever.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by Talanes on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @10:41PM (#22755784)
They don't have rights to the entire library, but yeah, just release everything you own on there at once and move on to ironing out N64.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by derefr on Wednesday April 01, 2020 @11:13PM (#22755921)
It's not just about what they own; it's also about what they think they can get away with bundling into "collections" alongside spiritual sequels/HD remasters/etc. (S)NES Online is just for everything left over after the other departments slice the IP up for remixing.
Re:How SNES emulators got a few pixels from complete perfection by Talanes on Thursday April 02, 2020 @07:17PM (#22764867)
And then they don't seem to have any real sense of urgency at actually making those collections. Earthbound is obviously missing so they can do a big bundle collection, but also their not confident enough in it to put the resources into translating Mother 3.